For many years my computer purchasing regime has been simple: Pick up a refurbished Dell laptop that's selling off-lease for under $500, install Mint Linux, and just use it til it turns to dust. Right now I'm driving a Latitude E7450. It's served me well, but I can see the end approaching.
I've been doing some shopping, and wow, have prices climbed. Suddenly the discount for used gear (from a retailer that I trust) makes less sense. So it appears likely that I'll be shopping for new laptop, something equivalent to the Latitude. I don't do gaming, and mostly use it for writing and surfing, so don't need extravagant specs or features.
The question though is what I should expect when stick my Mint USB into a new laptop these days, and what sorts of hoops I may need to jump to get it installed. I gather that Microsoft has managed to add "features" to "protect" users from my kind of behaviour.
Second question: would installing Linux on an Apple be easier?
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Sulla on Friday August 12 2022, @08:49AM (11 children)
I have been doing as it sounds like you have and relying on E5550s because they are fairly cheap on the used market and still have some life in them, but they are super picky about what hard drive is used in them. The 7 series is a better laptop, but other than the one I have for work I don't have any experience tinkering with it.
The biggest downfall in my opinion is the sad state of affairs of this crappy future, no CD drives. Fewer laptops appear to have SD card slots as well. I recently picked up a Thinkpad E570 because it appears to be the last laptop in the thinkpad line with a CD drive, so I'm going to baby it because I want that CD drive. To get the e5550s to work I would have to throw the hard drives in the e5550, install windows from disk, and then I could throw the hard drive in the dell. Won't be your problem because you are going Linux, but was still annoying. Iirc the e5550s do not like booting from USB, or at least mine haven't.
Chicklet keyboards suck too, thanks apple for ruining yet another thing.
Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
(Score: 4, Insightful) by pkrasimirov on Friday August 12 2022, @08:51AM (3 children)
You can always buy an external CD drive, you know.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by bzipitidoo on Friday August 12 2022, @02:11PM (2 children)
One caution about that. The last external drive I had (still have, actually) would overheat under sustained use. It was fine for reading a few files, but could not make it through installing an OS from DVD.
In recent years, many of my electronics purchases suffered from insufficient cooling. In addition to that external DVD, there's the Intel NUC that couldn't use its integrated 3D accelerated graphics for more than about 15 minutes before overheating, and the ASUS stick computer that would overheat randomly if you did anything more strenuous than edit text, like visit a few JavaScript intensive websites with an embedded video or 2. No, they were not clogged with dust. And the fans did work. Their engineering cheaped out too much on the cooling. As Takyon has said about that last, all ASUS had to do was make the case out of aluminum instead of plastic.
(Score: 2) by Freeman on Friday August 12 2022, @02:53PM
Usually, I don't need access to a CD/DVD drive for extended periods of time. I have two External CD/DVD drives and they work fine. I'm sure that not all external CD/DVD drives suffer from overheating. You could have just ended up with a lemon as far as that's concerned. In the event that you can't watch a Movie or two (one after the other) using the external drive, it's very poorly designed. You can also purchase a 5 1/4" external bay and a separate DVD/Blu-Ray player.
Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
(Score: 2, Informative) by MonkeypoxBugChaser on Friday August 12 2022, @04:28PM
Huh, whut? They make adapters for the old notebook drives to USB. Or just an IDE to USB adapter and a power brick lets your run a desktop drive for $20.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Unixnut on Friday August 12 2022, @08:57AM (5 children)
Alas I have to agree, laptops nowadays suck, the chicklet keyboards suck doubly more at least.
My main workhorse is a Thinkpad X201, the last model with the non-chicklet keyboard and a full size return key (with a T420 as a backup). At 12 years old It is getting long in the tooth now, but there really is nothing on the market since then that I would consider buying. It is a dire situation. Thankfully spare parts are still plentiful, and having shifted most of the heavy computation to powerful servers, the laptop can get by with just running text editors, web browsers (with JS mostly disabled) and SSH terminals (biggest benefit in performance by far was fitting a SSD).
As such I really can't recommend any new laptops at the moment, hell I am hopeful perhaps another Soyentil can tell me that there is in fact a decent non-chicklet laptop out there for purchase. I wait with baited breath!
(Score: 3, Insightful) by bzipitidoo on Friday August 12 2022, @02:14PM (1 child)
Worth plugging in a full sized USB keyboard? Yeah, that spoils much of the point of a laptop, but it can get you a working keyboard when you need one and the built-in one has gone on the fritz.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Unixnut on Saturday August 13 2022, @12:29PM
Not really. The main reason I use the laptop is for when I am on the go. In fact the T420 has not been used in months now, as I find it just a bit too bulky to carry around with me. To carry a full sized USB keyboard when I work from a coffee shop or outside just doesn't make sense for me.
When I am at a desk I have a desktop PC with mechanical keyboard, which is bliss.
I have toyed with the idea of getting one of those old 90s laptops from a junkyard (like the old Toshiba Satellites). They had lovely keyboard (IMO with the CTRL key in the right place, where caps lock is nowadays), and are a good 2 inches thick. I could fit a raspberry pi or equivalent and fill the rest with batteries. Should last a ungodly long amount of time on a charge, with a good keyboard to boot, even if it does look really retro.
(Score: 1) by MonkeypoxBugChaser on Friday August 12 2022, @04:31PM (2 children)
You can get a T430 and put a classic keyboard in it. The only long in the tooth part is for decoding videos. General web browsing and stuff like that is fine even on machines from 2008.
If you got the money they made a anniversary thinkpad too or get a 51NB machine.
(Score: 2) by Unixnut on Saturday August 13 2022, @12:47PM (1 child)
That is good to know, but I do find the T420 a bit too large for the amount of portability I currently need. My X201 is a great balance of size vs functionality for me.
I never heard of the 51NB, and had a look. Impressive. The X2100 (https://www.xyte.ch/mods/x210-x2100/) looks of interest, although the lack of compatibility with the docking station is a minus.
Alas it is currently out of stock, but it did draw my attention that it may be possible to do some serious modding in the X201 chassis. Is there a site online with mods for thinkpads? I use mostly the thinkwiki site for into, but information on modding there is very limited.
(Score: 1) by MonkeypoxBugChaser on Thursday August 18 2022, @11:08PM
Not much in terms of sites besides reddit. I think the chinese guys are the only ones selling upgraded thinkpad motherboards. The closest things following that are higher res screens (2/4k) where you solder in an adapter ... to the dock connector.
Last 'pads I would get are the T480/X280, everything else is getting homogenous with the soldering internal batteries and gluing.
(Score: 0, Troll) by HammeredGlass on Friday August 12 2022, @03:49PM
Your opinion is already suspect for buying and recommending Lenovo.
(Score: 2) by pkrasimirov on Friday August 12 2022, @08:50AM (5 children)
Disclaimer: Not an expert and not working in the field.
From what I know Apple have overpriced and slightly outdated hardware for the price. Even if you manage to replace the MacOS (and the whole walled garden there) the keyboard differs from the standard PC one. I don't have the link handy but I remember seeing one guy in a repair shop explaining exactly what bad and deliberate design decisions were made in the laptops. Something like putting a few IO port holes close together on the aluminum chassis resulting in structural failure when it get bended a little harder there. However Apple have nicely colour-calibrated screens. But I don't think that's under $500 anyway.
(Score: 4, Informative) by Rich on Friday August 12 2022, @10:10AM (1 child)
Having the "propeller" key instead of one with a Windows-logo is a win in my books. Just short of having penguin keys.
I just checked prices (German 'bay) and the Mid 2012 A1398 original Retina Macbook Pro with 16GB cost the same as a Thinkpad W530 of roughly the same vintage, around €400. Both come with Ivy Bridge Quadcores.
The W530 is still the best choice for Linux (centered keyboard, still has a ThinkLight, best driver support, everything replaceable as FRU).
But if the display quality (or having HiDPI) is priority, I'd actually consider that Mid 2012 A1398. Prices may be acceptable, because Apple have discontinued OS support for it, which is a shame because the hardware is absolutely capable of handling today's tasks (or not, because OSs >= Big Sur look shitty anyway). It's a lot worse for repair, but in the minefield of Apple design flaws it does not have one that particularly stands out. My own one crapped out with soldered-on dead RAM, super annoying, super expensive Logic Board swap needed, but that looks like an outlier. It's the last one to have an easily swappable SSD. Stuff from before (2010, 2011) has dying graphics chips, 2015-2018 have the self-destroying ("butterfly") keyboard, and so on. I'd probably try to make it dual-boot a Mint variety and its native Mojave (last 32-bit, tweakable OS).
(Score: 2) by Immerman on Saturday August 13 2022, @02:30PM
The propeller key is fine - but I find the usual lack of home, end, insert, and delete keys to be extremely off-putting (yeah, the backspace is labeled "delete", but I routinely use both.)
Most frustrating though is the Fn key, which they put where the Ctrl key should be, and which as I recall is difficult if not impossible to remap.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Runaway1956 on Friday August 12 2022, @02:02PM
FWIW, I have the latest and greatest Intel MacBook Pro. Installing Linux to a partitioned hard drive or to an external hard drive is pretty easy. Except, I've not found a driver and a method to install the driver for the discrete GPU. I should check on the guys who "defeated" the T2 chip, to see if they've made progress on that . . . never mind, I'm stuck in an endless login loop on discord. For those interested, do a search for 'Linux on T2 Macs' on discord.
Everything else works great though!
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 2) by Freeman on Friday August 12 2022, @02:46PM (1 child)
Pitting the average Apple laptop vs the Average PC laptop, Apple wins handily. Apple benefits from limited hardware choices (easier to work out the design/hardware/software/driver flaws). That said, Apple is generally more expensive and you get locked into their ecosystem for pretty much everything. The new M1 and M2 do look nice, though.
Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Immerman on Saturday August 13 2022, @02:39PM
If you're installing Linux (or Windows) as proposed, then you don't really get locked into the ecosystem. That's really more of a MacOS thing rather than a hardware thing.
That said, I don't think a "production ready" version of Linux exists for the newer M1 processor yet.
And even on Intel Macs compatibility can be really hit or miss - it seems Apple hardware is just different enough that you really want a distro that specifically supports Apple hardware or you risk facing a litany of (mostly) minor problems. I want to say you even want to make sure the distro supports your *specific* hardware model, but it's been a while and I could be misremembering.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 12 2022, @09:05AM (1 child)
I’ve had good luck with Thinkpads, but any mainstream laptop by a major company should work fine. If you don’t need fancy graphics, stick with the built-in Intel graphics. Avoid getting brand new models of peripherals (to give the open-source community a chance to update drivers).
Don’t buy an Apple if you want to run Linux. You would either be getting an obsolete Intel-based laptop (overpriced for what you’re getting), or an Apple-chip machine which can barely boot up Linux.
(Score: 2) by Immerman on Saturday August 13 2022, @02:47PM
Obsolete?
Perhaps you didn't notice, but Moore's Law is effectively dead. I'm running a PC that's almost twenty years old, and for pretty much everything except heavyweight 3D games (which the submitter says they don't play), it runs every bit as fast as the brand new powerhouse I've got at work.
Video processing, simulation, professional CAD, etc. also often leverages new CPU features and massive parrallelism, but for 99% of "office"/internet type programs most people use there's really no such a thing as obsolete hardware anymore. Not unless it was already obsolete when you bought it (I'm looking at you Chromebooks and competitors)
(Score: 4, Insightful) by bradley13 on Friday August 12 2022, @09:18AM (13 children)
...and buy from a manufacturer that explicitly supports Linux. Otherwise you get weirdness, like I have with the HP laptop my employer provided me: unrecognized hardware, so some buttons and features don't work. IIRC, Lenovo certifies their laptops for Linux, and I'm sure you can find other manufacturers as well.
Everyone is somebody else's weirdo.
(Score: 4, Informative) by stretch611 on Friday August 12 2022, @09:32AM
Dell used to certify a few specific models for linux but not their entire line. System76 [system76.com] specifically makes laptops with pre-installed linux... But they can be pricey.
Now with 5 covid vaccine shots/boosters altering my DNA :P
(Score: 2, Interesting) by davidjohnpaul on Friday August 12 2022, @10:07PM
Might be worth checking Star Labs out - their StarLite ( https://starlabs.systems/pages/starlite [starlabs.systems] )might meet the poster's needs.
(Score: 4, Informative) by hendrikboom on Saturday August 13 2022, @02:25AM (8 children)
Purism ( https://puri.sm/ [puri.sm] ) makes laptops for Linux. They have their own release based on Debian, but mine is running under Devuan, a different Debian derivative.
You don't have to worry about Windows bias. When once asked whether their machines would run Windows, they replied "We don't know We never tried it."
-- hendrik
(Score: 2) by The Vocal Minority on Saturday August 13 2022, @01:03PM (7 children)
Only problems I've had with my Purism laptop is:
1. Unable to share screen when video conferencing
2. USB video doesn't work, I think this is a general Linux issue
3. Firmware went a bit weird for a while but seems to be fine now.
There is also the Pinebook but I don't know how good they are. Their phone hardware seems solid but I have not been able to use it as a daily driver yet.
https://www.pine64.org/pinebook-pro/ [pine64.org]
(Score: 3, Informative) by hendrikboom on Saturday August 13 2022, @02:46PM (4 children)
I have not had trouble sharing screen when videoconferencing.
Might it depend on the videoconferencing platform or the browser you use?
I currently use firefox-esr on Devuan Linux for my video conferencing.
Maybe Purism's OS is different in some surprising manner (assuming you use it)?
-- hendrik
(Score: 2) by The Vocal Minority on Sunday August 14 2022, @04:49AM (3 children)
I am using the PureOS it came with which uses Firefox as the standard web browser - I don't have a lot of time/motivation these days to tinker with technology. I did get the feeling, when I was trying to get it to work, that screen sharing may have been locked down as a security measure. This would make sense given that they are marketing it as a secure device to some extent, with hardware switches etc.
(Score: 3, Informative) by hendrikboom on Sunday August 14 2022, @09:57PM
It might be the window manager instead of PureOS. I'm using LXQt as window manager and I've done screen sharing works in both Zoom in firefox and in Jitsi in firefox. I have not tried zoom's package for Linux. Of course, zoom keeps changing. So try installing and trying LXQt and find out if things work better?
(Score: 3, Informative) by hendrikboom on Monday August 15 2022, @10:10AM (1 child)
Firefox itself has a lot of security options. I've found some of them hard to find and change in the past. And they seem to change from time to time. Maybe Firefox is the culprit?
(Score: 2) by The Vocal Minority on Thursday August 18 2022, @08:07AM
Thank you for the suggestions. Yes it is entirely possible that Firefox is the culprit - I'll look into it when I have the time.
(Score: 3, Informative) by ncc74656 on Sunday August 14 2022, @05:10PM (1 child)
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "USB video," but if you mean plugging a USB-C monitor or HDMI or DisplayPort dongle into a USB-C port, I have a Framework Laptop (only a few months old) and a Dell Latitude 7370 (about six years old now) on which monitors and dongles work just fine under Linux (Gentoo Linux, anyway). They're even hot-pluggable. I keep one of these [amazon.com] in my computer bag, and it connects with a single USB-C 3.0 cable (make sure your USB-C cable supports USB 3.0 or higher, or it'll only be usable for power).
(Score: 2) by The Vocal Minority on Thursday August 18 2022, @09:22AM
It's video via a monitor plugged into a universal hub.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_video_device_class [wikipedia.org]
(Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Saturday August 13 2022, @02:33AM (1 child)
Or try Framework [frame.work] and get a laptop most of whose parts are user-replaceable. And you can save a few hundred dollars by ordering it in kit form instead of preassembled.
About the only part that isn't easy to replace is the CPU, because (as they say) laptop CPU's aren't made to be put in sockets. But you can replace the entire main board and keep your case, screen, and peripherals.
You need to see this thing before you buy something else.
I was tempted to buy one as an extra laptop, but held back because I really don't need an extra laptop.
(Score: 2) by Immerman on Saturday August 13 2022, @03:10PM
Seconded. I also haven't had an excuse to buy one, but I'm really hoping they're still around when next it's time for me to buy a laptop. A bit on the pricey end among similarly-specced laptops, (unless you already have DDR4 RAM, drive, and OS available, and can get away with a barebones DIY configuration) but the first time you upgrade you'll make your money back.
It is worth noting that they're on their second version now, and as promised did in fact make the new motherboards available as a drop-in replacements for the first-gen laptops. They also made the more rigid upgraded top cover ("monitor frame") available for those who wanted to upgrade that.
And if you're the sort to work a laptop into dust, then the ease of replacing worn-out components will likely pay for itself even sooner. After all it's almost always the keyboard, ports, or other mechanical components on a laptop that fail first. Most of which are an ordeal to replace on a typical laptop, if it's possible at all (without soldering at least). Not to mention the ease of doing basic maintenance like cleaning the fan. Seriously, why is that such an ordeal on most laptops?
I'm not happy about having to replace the entire MB to upgrade the CPU, but that seems to be the unfortunate reality of modern laptop CPUs. At least the RAM isn't soldered on.
(Score: 5, Informative) by stretch611 on Friday August 12 2022, @09:29AM (1 child)
I use linux Mint as my primary os. The last time I had windows installed was an old Dual Core Athlon from 2008.
I too remember the hell it used to be getting drivers to work for linux on laptops. Not really an issue anymore but a few things can still bite.
My current Laptop is a lenovo. I do not see a model number on it so I really can't say at the moment. It has a Ryzen 5 series processor with integrated graphics (AMD GPU built in to the processor with shared memory.)
I bought the lenovo laptop about a year ago after my piece of sh!t Asus gaming laptop literally came apart at the seems in less than 2 years. (And I generally handle my laptops with extreme care so it wasn't an abuse issue.)
Prior to that I had a MSI gaming laptop.
All 3 of the above ran linux mint. I never even let windows boot, wiped the hard drive(s) and installed mint from the day I bought each respective laptop. I should note that I generally bought high end laptops meant for gaming with dedicated GPUs and VRAM. I went with a non-gaming laptop for my last purchase because I bought it while having a steamdeck on order (and not needing a gaming laptop for gaming on the road anymore; little did I know at the time how long I would wait...)
They have all had a variety of hardware... My lenovo has a 1 tb nvme, the older 2 had a 1 tb spinning rust hd combined with a 256GB SSD. As I mentioned the lenovo has ryzen integrated graphics, the ASUS had an AMD GPU, and the MSI had a nvidia GPU.
With the last 3 laptops in mind, here is a list of all the hardware issues/driver issues that I have had running linux mint...
1) The webcam did not always work. Honestly, I know it worked on one of my prior laptops and didn't on the other, I honestly don't know if it works or not on the lenovo. I never use it. Fortunately I never had to use them for zoom meetings.
2) The backlight LEDs on the lenovo keyboard do not light up when returning from sleep mode. (I have to manually hit fn-space to turn them back on.)
3) The caps-lock, num-lock, and scroll lock LEDs do not work on the lenovo.
Pretty much that is it. No GPU issues, no ethernet or wifi issues either. The laptops worked fine as is. Linux has much better hardware support now compared to a few years ago. Even 5-10 years ago it usually was not horrible unless you had a brand new shiny hardware thing and had to wait for the most recent linux kernel for support. (That may still arise in some issues but it is rare.)
There is one caveat... USB C docking hubs. They do not all work with linux. Some do, some don't. The ones that do not work can still work as a PD power pass-through but what is the point if the connected ports do not work. The ones that do work can be usb hubs, sd card readers and multi-monitor connectors... and RJ45 ports. It is trial and error, there is likely a few websites with a list. A very general rule of thumb is that if the usb docking hub says it works with Windows OR Mac, avoid it... stick with the ones that only work with both. Obviously if it says Unix/Linux (or Chromebooks) it should be fine. Likely this will get better in the very near future as supporting linux is a requirement for the USB dock to work with the Steamdeck which is selling quite well.
Now with 5 covid vaccine shots/boosters altering my DNA :P
(Score: 4, Informative) by stretch611 on Friday August 12 2022, @09:52AM
FWIW... I tested my webcam on my lenovo... I thought it did not work... but I was wrong.. it has a physical switch that must be on. (honestly a nice feature)
And I forgot to mention... trackpads. I can't stand them so even if they work I will disable them (through bios if possible, otherwise through linux mouse settings) The lenovo's track point does work though. Personally I always bring a USB thumb-trackball with me.
Might as well show you the pecs (as given through Steam)
Now with 5 covid vaccine shots/boosters altering my DNA :P
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 12 2022, @09:49AM (3 children)
My new box checklist:
1) CPU... Intel is fuxx0red beyond salvage, ARM is for people for whom process is more important then the result. RISK-V is... whatever. You wrote you need it for productive work, hence, AMD x86-64 it is.
2) how much ram, 16 at least, 64 gb at most. For me, 32 gb hits a sweet spot. 8 might be sufficient for you, i dunno..
3) nvidia or amd? id say nvidia, cos easier to get working with linux traditionally, AMD might work just as well, but might need to research os+card+mobo compatibility more...
4) battery capacity, 8 hours is minimum.
5) Producer... i've had good ASUS and ACER laptops, (do acer still exist?) i've had bad asus laptops and okay-ish and awful HP/DELL's... hardware on them is usually sub-average, and build quality varies alot, from mostly acceptable to garbage.
Newer HP, lenovo and DELL - forget it. Might just as well buy a surface (really, who the fuck buys those things?).,,
Apple... why would you buy that horror, its like a even-more-proprietary chromebook made by shoggots that are ideologically opposed to interoperation....
And dont get me started on their post-intel trash. Id rather use a tandy! (I fucking hate tandy, a silicate brick is easier to compute with, lmao.)
I'm not aware that there are any hoops, unless you buy something that is thoroughly contaminated/perverted/baroqued by manufacturer (surface, m1, m2, everything intel made since Netburst, etc.)
So i would look at the laptop selling sites, for the above combination of features.
Then, id narrow the list to 3-5 models.
Then, id search the internet on mojeek.com, millionshort.com and other non-pubbie non-farmed search engines, for like "%LAPTOP_MODEL% horror unusable crash dead plague linux mint reinstall" or similar, per model number.
Then i read about all the problems and decide whether i can live with that.
If i can, i buy laptop.
Personally, i have moved away from laptops to a combination of dedicated dual-use devices (flipper and a bunch of custom boards for it), cellphones and a few loose ESP32's for ECM capabilities.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by stretch611 on Friday August 12 2022, @10:07AM
nvidia or amd gpu...
For a long time, there was no real choice only nvidia was worth considering if you needed high end graphics.
IMO, that is no longer the case...
AMD has been working with the open source community... The open source AMDGPU drivers work better than the proprietary drivers. This means no drivers to search for and install with AMD graphics... They just work... and work well too!
I currently find this much better than the situation with nvidia which you need to grab their specific driver... then after a few months and you have had no upgrades you realize that they changed driver numbers and have to go re install. Not to mention occasional crashes and I have had a few cases of installation problems which stop the entire system from booting.
So in the last 10 years, AMD has improved linux support greatly, while nvidia continues with the same old support... which is there but somewhat lackluster. I would go with AMD now as a preference.
That being said, nvidia did announce open sourcing various pieces of its drivers in the last few months. It was limited initially, but I have not read anything lately. I would expect it to be some time to make an impact and we have to wait and see how much of an impact that will end up being.
Now with 5 covid vaccine shots/boosters altering my DNA :P
(Score: 2) by Freeman on Friday August 12 2022, @02:35PM
An Apple M1 or M2 could be interesting. But, yeah, generally you're getting a more ecosystem locked device at bigger expense.
Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
(Score: 3, Informative) by bart9h on Friday August 12 2022, @04:38PM
By "traditionally" you mean a couple decades ago?
AMD is supported by the official kernel and xorg drivers, no extra setup needed. For nvidia you'll have to install their proprietary closed-source driver.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by shrewdsheep on Friday August 12 2022, @10:16AM (2 children)
If you don't carry your laptop around, consider a NUC-style computer. I have recently acquired a BRIX-box from Gigabyte with an Atom processor which is specced for what you seem to need. Costs Eur 300.- with 8Gb Ram/2 Tb HD. If you have a monitor alreadhy, this is the cheaper option.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Freeman on Friday August 12 2022, @02:32PM (1 child)
I abhor NUCs. I've yet to see a well designed one, but I've not looked at a bunch of them. All I know is that with tiny space and not a lot of planning, you get nicely roasted devices. Then again an Atom processor may not use enough power to roast anything. Though, if I wanted a horribly slow CPU, I could just use one of the 4 or so RaspberryPis I own.
Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
(Score: 2, Interesting) by MonkeypoxBugChaser on Friday August 12 2022, @04:25PM
I have a nuc with a broadwell that's basically ops laptop. It didn't really cook. Just I wouldn't pay $300 they want for one even used.
(Score: 5, Informative) by ElizabethGreene on Friday August 12 2022, @10:44AM (8 children)
I think the question you're asking is "Does UEFI and secureboot make it difficult to install Linux?"
The short answer is no. Dual-booting can be problematic, but I've had no issues getting Linux installed on modern hardware from Dell, HP, or Lenovo. Mint specifically fully supports UEFI. They don't sign their kernel so you can't secureboot, but that's common.
(Score: 2) by RS3 on Friday August 12 2022, @01:35PM (2 children)
I haven't tried installing Linux on a UEFI machine, but I remember some UEFI machines that had a BIOS setting to boot UEFI or BIOS mode. Sorry I can't remember the specifics- IIRC one was a high-end HP "workstation" and at least one was a Dell laptop.
(Score: 4, Informative) by ElizabethGreene on Friday August 12 2022, @04:56PM (1 child)
Yes, you're right; The majority of systems have UEFI/Legacy boot switches in the BIOS. If your distro supports UEFI, that is *in my experience* better. There is a notable difference in boot times.
(Score: 2) by RS3 on Friday August 12 2022, @11:48PM
If by better you mean faster, that's interesting and counterintuitive. I'd expect UEFI to take longer doing who knows what system / security checks.
(Score: 4, Informative) by Freeman on Friday August 12 2022, @02:30PM (4 children)
I had to find a new tool to boot Linux on a flashdrive. Not sure what the issue was, but I think it had something to do with UEFI. I was using a multi-boot flashdrive, so who knows what the issue was, specifically.
Thankfully, I found this, which worked flawlessly: (Unfortunately, no multi-boot.)
https://www.balena.io/etcher/ [balena.io]
I recently have found this, but I've not actually given it a try: (My ideal multi-boot tool. Will definitely need to try this out.)
https://www.ventoy.net/en/index.html [ventoy.net]
Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
(Score: 3, Interesting) by SDRefugee on Friday August 12 2022, @05:46PM
For multi-boot, try Ventoy, its the easiest to use multiboot installer I've found. All the rest seem to get confused when you have something like a 64Gb stick with more than 4-5 ISOs on it. With Ventoy, no problem. Ventoy even handles Windows 10/11 installs (if you need that kind of malarky)
https://www.ventoy.net [ventoy.net]
America should be proud of Edward Snowden, the hero, whether they know it or not..
(Score: 5, Informative) by ElizabethGreene on Friday August 12 2022, @05:46PM
UEFI and Legacy Bios systems boot in a different way, so the USB (or Hard drive) you use for booting will be different.
With Legacy bios, the BIOS identifies a Boot device and loads the MBR from the first 512 bytes of that device. The first 440 bytes of the MBR is the bootstrap code, aka stage one bootloader. That's followed by the partition table. The Stage 1 bootloader identifies the first active partition and loads the stage 2 bootloader from the initial sector of that active partition. The stage 2 bootloader isn't restricted to a tiny number of bytes and is smart enough to understand the format of the filesystem on the partition. It looks for the actual boot files on the disk, e.g. NTLDR, BOOTMGR, or Grub or whatever, loads, and runs those.
With UEFI boot, UEFI understands the partition tables and some filesystems. When you power it up, it checks its boot variables in NVRAM to identify the partition and path where it should find the boot manager, loads, and runs that. You can view these with efibootmgr -v (linux) or bcdedit /enum (windows). For booting with a USB stick it won't know the partition and file name/path in advance, so instead the system digs around in the filesystem and finds \efi\boot\bootx64.efi. That's the required file name for a default boot manager. That is a binary that loads up and runs the OS.
To make a bootable USB stick you *should* just need to format it as fat12/16/32 and copy everything over, making sure the \efi\boot folders are populated properly.
That trick doesn't work for CDs. Interestingly, UEFI doesn't include support for that format so on those you have to create an EF boot sector containing the efisys.bin file which is, I SHIT YOU NOT A FLOPPY DISK IMAGE that contains Bootx64.efi.
It's all hacks, hacks all the way down.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Runaway1956 on Friday August 12 2022, @07:09PM (1 child)
Ventoy has worked well for me - except when it doesn't. It is prone to complaining that an ISO is not contiguous on the media you are using. I thought it would be great, write a dozen images to the drive, test them, delete the ones I don't like, write a couple more. But, if you end up with fragmented files, they don't work so well.
On the other hand, if you're going to write your files, and leave them, you're good to go!
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Immerman on Saturday August 13 2022, @03:35PM
Non-contiguous ISOs tend to be a problem for any multi-boot system that supports ISOs at all.
Fortunately it's pretty easy to work around - just defrag the drive with any tool that lets you consolidate free space before adding the new bootable images. Windows built-in defrag may work, but you may need to run the GUI version several times since it doesn't prioritize free space consolidation. I believe the command line version can though: Defrag U: /X (where U: is your USB drive letter)
Not the healthiest thing to do to a flash drive on a regular basis, but it gets the job done.
(Score: 1) by krokodilerian on Friday August 12 2022, @11:06AM (1 child)
https://www.xyte.ch/t700-crowdfunding/ [www.xyte.ch]
I have no idea if there's a chance for this to succeed, but looks like to be one of the best possible things you can get, normal keyboard, 4:3 (or another) screen and newer hardware.
(Score: 2) by Freeman on Monday August 15 2022, @01:27PM
Oh, that site is someone "custom building" laptops? That is weird. That is also an expensive laptop with dubious source. Would recommend the frame.work laptop over that. https://frame.work/ [frame.work]
Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
(Score: 3, Informative) by RamiK on Friday August 12 2022, @11:51AM
If anything, the prices for old models dropped due to Win11 and how there's a new hardware security vulnerability every other month that Intel won't patch after a couple of years.
Regardless, Amazon is full of renewed / refurbished Dell latitudes selling under $500.
Everything is the same: The platform support is fine if there's overlapping linux models. If not, you might run across poorly supported wifi chips or the likes.
Apple hardware is more expensive, has worse driver support and is harder to source replacement parts for. However, the installation itself is about the same though you'd have to check for the specific model.
compiling...
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Freeman on Friday August 12 2022, @02:24PM (3 children)
I've noticed this fairly new player in the laptop realm and it could be a great system. The idea is cool and next time you upgrade, you may be able to re-use your monitor, like the Desktop heathens.
"Old" model, last year's model that is currently discounted. Literally the first model they produced.
https://frame.work/products/laptop-diy-11-gen-intel [frame.work]
The new model, that is showing as as pre-order only, atm.
https://frame.work/laptop-diy-12-gen-intel [frame.work]
Upgrade kit to make the 11th gen laptop into a 12th gen intel laptop by replacing the main board.
https://frame.work/products/12-gen-intel-upgrade-kit?v=FRUPGRDKIT01 [frame.work]
Their Marketplace: (Replacement parts, battery replacement, different ports you can swap out, etc.)
https://frame.work/marketplace [frame.work]
11th gen mainboard currently on sale for $399:
https://frame.work/products/mainboard?v=FRANFG000A [frame.work]
You can also repurpose "old" mainboards:
https://community.frame.work/t/frame-workstation-desktop/19787/8 [frame.work]
https://community.frame.work/t/framework-desktop-case-adapter/19126/9 [frame.work]
https://community.frame.work/t/modern-game-console-case/18293 [frame.work]
Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
(Score: 2) by Freeman on Friday August 12 2022, @02:38PM (1 child)
I forgot, you can also get the laptop without an OS, Linux, or Windows pre-installed.
Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
(Score: 2) by Freeman on Friday August 12 2022, @02:40PM
Oops, Linux isn't a pre-install option:
Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
(Score: 3, Interesting) by hendrikboom on Saturday August 13 2022, @02:45AM
You need to check this one out before you buy!
(Score: 1) by MonkeypoxBugChaser on Friday August 12 2022, @04:22PM
You turn off secure boot. It boots.
You're going to love soldered CPUs, non removable batteries, terrible glued screens and even soldered ram.
In no world is a new laptop cheaper than used tho unless you're talking an economy model that will fall apart. Your prefered retailer is just overpriced. $500 for an x230, even in canadian bucks is looney. I paid less for my T430 + screen + ssd + ram + quad core and I bought it just a few months ago. Maybe buy a chromebook and put linux on it as you don't need GPU beyond decoding video. Just whatever you get make sure the screen is acceptable.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by SDRefugee on Friday August 12 2022, @05:29PM
Are you ME???? I've been doing the exact same thing since I retired from a 20+ year IT career in 2010. My current laptop is a Dell Latitude 5480, bought on the Dell offlease sales website for a bit over $400. My only difference is I use KUbuntu 20.04. Of course the system comes with Windows 10, and in this case it came originally on a 500Gb "spinning_rust" drive, which I pulled and stored until the end of the 1 year warrantee, for *just in case*, and replaced with a 500Gb SSD. It came with 1 8Gb ram stick, and I upgraded it to 2 8Gb sticks, as 16Gb is enough for what I do. I also installed QEMU-KVM and a copy of Win10Pro, and using the embedded product key made the install happy. I have a few Windows-only programs I use irregularly that don't
play nice with Wine. Unlike you, I'm not looking to replace this system anytime soon, as it works perfectly for my use.
America should be proud of Edward Snowden, the hero, whether they know it or not..
(Score: 3, Informative) by fotonix on Saturday August 13 2022, @03:50AM (1 child)
I guess Dells are plentiful where you are, and they seem to behave well with Linux from what I have heard. Avoid Apple at all costs.
I've had good experiences with HP, Acer and Asus. Problems can come with some Ryzen 5/7/etc from any brand. There is a tweak in the boot parameters that fixes it though.
For a dedicated freedom hardware notebook:
https://starlabs.systems/pages/starbook?partner=manjaro [starlabs.systems] .. can be ordered with half a dozen distros - Mint being one.
There are other suppliers - distrowatch promote https://www.tuxedocomputers.com/ [tuxedocomputers.com]
In general new machines come with less and less ports and no DVD drives. "Consumer driven" change but I think its the manufactures cutting costs.
Over-thought solutions get over-engineered and miss the user's requirements.
(Score: 2) by Common Joe on Sunday August 14 2022, @09:45AM
I got a tuxedo a few years ago and I was not impressed when I had to use their warranty. It took three time back and forth putting the computer in the mail before it was properly repaired despite explaining the problem in detail (including how to reproduce it). For repair number 2 and 3, I even included video.
I eventually got a Lenovo ThinkPad. It's worked rather well with Linux Mint, but occasional freezes were a problem for the first year or so until the new hardware was better recognized by Linux.