Arthur T Knackerbracket has processed the following story:
Even a relatively small nuclear war would create a worldwide food crisis lasting at least a decade in which hundreds of millions would starve, according to our new modeling published in Nature Food.
In a nuclear war, bombs dropped on cities and industrial areas would start firestorms, injecting large amounts of soot into the upper atmosphere. This soot would spread globally and rapidly cool the planet.
Although the war might only last days or weeks, the impacts on Earth's climate could persist for more than ten years. We used advanced climate and food production models to explore what this would mean for the world's food supply.
[...] We simulated six different war scenarios, because the amount of soot injected into the upper atmosphere would depend on the number of weapons used.
The smallest war in our scenarios was a "limited" conflict between India and Pakistan, involving 100 Hiroshima-sized weapons (less than 3% of the global nuclear arsenal). The largest was a global nuclear holocaust, in which Russia and the United States detonate 90% of the world's nuclear weapons.
[...] Even under the smallest war scenario we considered, sunlight over global crop regions would initially fall by about 10%, and global average temperatures would drop by up to 1–2℃. For a decade or so, this would cancel out all human-induced warming since the Industrial Revolution.
In response, global food production would decrease by 7% in the first five years after a small-scale regional nuclear war. Although this sounds minor, a 7% fall is almost double the largest recorded drop in food production since records began in 1961. As a result, more than 250 million people would be without food two years after the war.
Unsurprisingly, a global nuclear war would be a civilization-level threat, leaving over five billion people starving.
[...] In a post-nuclear-war world, we expect global food distribution would cease entirely for several years, as exporting countries suspend trade and focus on feeding their own populations. This would make war-induced shortages even worse in food-importing countries, especially in Asia, Europe and the Middle East.
Our results point to a stark and clear conclusion: there is no such thing as a limited nuclear war, where impacts are confined to warring countries.
Our findings provide further support for the 1985 statement by U.S. President Ronald Reagan and Soviet General Secretary Mikhail Gorbachev, reaffirmed by the current leaders of China, France, the U.K., Russia and the U.S. this year: "A nuclear war cannot be won and must never be fought."
Neil deGrasse Tyson's Star Talk podcast just did an episode on this scenario and provides some background to the aforementioned Reagan/Gorbachev statement.
Journal Reference:
Xia, L., Robock, A., Scherrer, K. et al. Global food insecurity and famine from reduced crop, marine fishery and livestock production due to climate disruption from nuclear war soot injection [open]. Nat Food 3, 586–596 (2022). DOI: 10.1038/s43016-022-00573-0
(Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 28 2022, @02:23PM (135 children)
the west seems to be hellbent on a direct confrontation with Russia
(Score: 5, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 28 2022, @02:30PM (116 children)
Actually the West seems content to fight a proxy war that increasingly makes Russia's leadership look like clowns and destabilizes the government. If Russia drops a tactical nuke, then it will get direct.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by JoeMerchant on Sunday August 28 2022, @03:05PM (115 children)
> increasingly makes Russia's leadership look like clowns and destabilizes the government.
That depends almost entirely upon whose news you pay attention to.
One man's clown is another man's steadfast hero who doesn't take no $hit from no body. He'll show those evil others who is boss and we're going to have a better future because of it.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Sunday August 28 2022, @04:31PM (114 children)
IMO, they're all clowns, on both sides, Russia and the East. Put a bunch of fools into uniforms, let them strut and preen, and you will get stupid shit back from them. It's that old 'military intelligence' oxymoron.
The problem is, a miscalculation when nuclear powers are involved could lead to anything at all.
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by JoeMerchant on Sunday August 28 2022, @06:04PM (7 children)
No doubt they are all clowns, performing for the audience.
Over the years, I've had brief face-to-face conversations with the infamous Newt Gingrich, Marco Rubio, and Ander Crenshaw... Newt was anything but a firebrand when I met him (of course, he had just retired after a scandal over some sweet young thing) - but, he was shrewd, and probably the most "connected" man I have ever met. He got us a sit-down presentation with the money behind Home Depot to pitch our investment opportunity to them... they still said no thanks, but getting that kind of opportunity is huge, and if it worked out we would have been somewhat indebted to Mr. Gingrich - certainly would have done him a favor or two in return if the opportunity presented itself. At the time, he was probably making 10+ such connections a week, and probably two a month would succeed with a big transaction...
Rubio, at the time he wasn't even in office, yet, but it was soon coming. Came to a special interest meeting, listened to our woes for hours, finished his mediocre catered meal (I was seated to his right at the table) - turned his face away from the crowd (before he had their attention) drew a deep breath and put on his game face - literally - it was a total change of expression to the one you see on-camera. He was introduced, stood, and made a moving speech about how he was going to fight for us to get the things we need... it was his 100 points of light tour, he literally did 100 of these things around the state, making projections and promises and impressions on the crowd. Only about 20 of those "points of light" made any material progress forward after his bird call (fly in, drop a little shit, fly out), and of those 20, 17 were already rolling before Rubio ever heard of them, his positive influence on them was doubtful - he _might_ have contributed some forward progress to 3 of the 100 issues, but that's hard to tell if he had anything to do with it or was just present when the projects turned the corner. Certainly absolutely zip came of anything he said at that meeting during the next 5-10 years for our issues. But... it was a successful tour in that it got him elected, and on to the U.S. Senate in record time, making similar promises all along the way. The man's no fool, even if he plays one for the camera.
Crenshaw was a Navy vet, you may have never heard of him, but he was the rep for our district at the time and I accidentally ran into him in a hole in the wall restaurant in D.C. at about 10:30pm on a Tuesday. Brief conversation, all happy face, not really political, but... we did take up his offer for the Capitol tour (which you don't really have to get from him personally, if you want a Capitol tour while in D.C. call the office of your Representative, they'll all hook you up) - Crenshaw hooked us up with one of his interns who was none-too-happy to be giving Capitol tours to a bunch of tourists, and wasn't discrete enough to not show it - even while giving a pretty decent guided tour. Main thing I learned from the experience was about Crenshaw's advocacy for our local Naval airbase operations... and I'm sure it was no coincidence that shortly after his retirement our fleet of submarine hunter aircraft suddenly relocated elsewhere, our new rep has managed to bring them back - that's no small chunk of change being dropped in the local economy.
Point being: these clowns aren't dumb at all, many of them play the fool for the cameras but they know what they're doing - or in some cases (like the DT and Ronnie Raygun) - their handlers know.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 28 2022, @06:18PM (6 children)
If they're so smart... why are they trying to fuck us? Don't they see that they're spouting 3rd world tinpot bullshit? I mean, if you're so smart at 3D chess how do you not see that fucking everyone over is a losing proposition for you too eventually.
(Score: 4, Touché) by khallow on Sunday August 28 2022, @07:46PM (4 children)
You're asking why, that's why.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 28 2022, @08:25PM (3 children)
Cool, that solves the question. Now let's ask when?
(Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday August 28 2022, @09:24PM (2 children)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 28 2022, @09:43PM (1 child)
Wow, what progress! With what?
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday August 30 2022, @01:33AM
You have heard of "being given the shaft?"
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 4, Touché) by Immerman on Monday August 29 2022, @12:41AM
Why *wouldn't* they try?
They're playing the game for power, and the tinpot dictator hat is the ultimate prize. And so long as there's no penalty for failing you can just keep trying for it until you win.
We'll see with Trump whether there's any penalty for crossing the line from bombasitc speeches and legislative fuckery into an outright self-coup attempt - if there's not something severe I fully expect the Republicans (and particularly ambitious Democrats) to try again in perpetuity.
(Score: 5, Informative) by mcgrew on Sunday August 28 2022, @06:31PM (105 children)
Put a bunch of fools into uniforms, let them strut and preen
Except that what you Russian bastards keep neglecting to mention is that RUSSIA ATTACKED UKRAINE for no reason whatever, or at least, no reason they're telling anybody, except the almost comical lie that Ukraine's Jewish president is a Nazi.
They're not just strutting and preening, they're firing artillery close to Europe's biggest nuclear power plant. Clown, you say? You think it's a joke? You're clowning with people's lives, you sick bastards!
Carbon, The only element in the known universe to ever gain sentience
(Score: 5, Informative) by PiMuNu on Sunday August 28 2022, @06:45PM (9 children)
Agree.
> no reason whatever
Disagree with this however:
Russia invades Chechnya - nothing happens, Russia wins
Russia invades Georgia - nothing happens, Russia wins
Russia invades Crimea - nothing happens, Russia wins
Russia invades East Ukraine - nothing happens, Russia wins
Russia invades rest of Ukraine - ... what would you guess as the outcome?
Simple imperialism, nationalist popularism and power politics for Putin.
(Score: 2) by Username on Sunday August 28 2022, @10:50PM (7 children)
The reason, I believe, is that russia is taking back the territory they lost when the USSR collapsed. They have held these places since they took it from the ottomans and french. So for 200 years it was apart of russia, 20 years about solo.
In my brain, this is like if the united state collapsed instead, and now the union starts invading texas, florida and utah would be the parallel.
(Score: 4, Informative) by JoeMerchant on Monday August 29 2022, @01:07AM (6 children)
Russia is not the USSR. USSR states were subservient to Russia, exploited in the extreme. It is basically the opposite of the USA where the wealthy cities pay taxes to prop up civilization in the rural flyover states, ensuring they have roads, electricity, broadband, etc. Post WWII Russia was ripping up rail lines in the member states as a cheap source of iron ..
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 2) by Username on Monday August 29 2022, @11:20AM (5 children)
> wealthy cities pay taxes to prop up civilization in the rural flyover states
I think it goes the other way, they exploit resources and drain flyover states of wealth. Local taxes pay for all roads except the interstate. I pay my bill to get electricity and internet from a local utility. Which one of my other bills do you think wealthy cities pay? Water? Healthcare? Housing? Waste? From what I see large corps abuse the strong work ethic in the flyover states so some guy in LA can live in a penthouse and drink chai lattes while saying he "knows how the niggers feel cold." Honestly for socialist they're not very sharing.
To be fair, post WWII USA was ripping up rail lines in the member states as a cheap source of iron as well. Because nobody used rail. Cheap air liners (what do we do with all these bombers?) and semi trucks pretty much put an end to johnny cash and passenger rail. I'm sure it's was similar all around the world.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by JoeMerchant on Monday August 29 2022, @12:33PM (3 children)
>I pay my bill to get electricity
And who paid the bills to get you electric and telephone service in the first place? Same with the interstate: how economically useful would your local roads be without interstate connection? You seem to have forgotten education, what is the federal funding fraction there?
Large corps abuse everyone, hard work ethic types basically bend over and scream "do it to me Daddy" when the corps come to town with a little more money than the locals can earn from each other. It's a problem which needs fixing, but it's nearly as problematic for human resources in the cities, only mitigated there by educated human resources' willingness to stand up and walk out when abused too much.
East Germany certainly was not similar to anything in the West in 1990. It looked like time had stood still since 1915, with the occasional visitation of some aliens who put up the ugliest cheap architecture possible to replace a fraction of the buildings that were lost to poor maintenance via lack of material to do the maintenance with.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday August 29 2022, @06:03PM (2 children)
The people who paid electric and telephone bills. But then again, maybe I need a few billion dollars to type posts around here.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by JoeMerchant on Monday August 29 2022, @06:52PM (1 child)
>>And who paid the bills to get you electric and telephone service in the first place?
>The people who paid electric and telephone bills.
Again: grow up, and this time learn a little history about how much was paid to provide telephone and electric service to the rural farms of the Midwest... 20 years of regular bills still wouldn't pay off the cost of running the longer lines.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 0, Redundant) by khallow on Monday August 29 2022, @07:08PM
Except of course, when they were adequate to pay off the cost of running the longer lines.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by vux984 on Tuesday August 30 2022, @02:56AM
This is a few years old now, but the principles haven't changed:
https://www.frbsf.org/economic-research/publications/economic-letter/2013/december/taxes-transfers-redistribution-us-federal-government-states/ [frbsf.org]
There's a nice map a few paragraphs in that show which states are paying more to the federal government than they get back, and which get back more than they pay. It's not exactly wealthy cities propping up rural flyover states, but its an accurate enough description. For those that live in a 'light colored' state on that map, (which pretty much all lean heavily rural repubiclan), the irony of their rhetoric about pulling themselves up by their bootstraps while mocking all things "socialism" is pretty facepalm inducing.
It strikes the same tone as a child screaming at his parents, who feed, shelter, and clothe him that they never do anything for him, and that they're fascist dictators for expecting him do some chores, and that he has to do everything around the house while they just leech of his free labor. It's pretty funny when it's a small child, but when grown ass adults do it, its pretty pathetic.
(Score: 2) by Immerman on Monday August 29 2022, @12:47AM
I suspect it was also intended as a warning to Finland, etc. on the dangers of getting too cozy with NATO and the UN - which might have worked if it went smoothly, but instead backfired horribly, to the point that even stubbornly neutral Sweden is considering joining.
(Score: 0, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 28 2022, @07:02PM (58 children)
Mass media lies to sell the war to the Americans. They lied us into Afghanistan, they lied us into Vietnam.. Why do you keep believing lies?
(Score: 4, Informative) by khallow on Sunday August 28 2022, @07:47PM (57 children)
Sounds like Putin isn't using the mass media well then. Of course, it doesn't take mass media to realize Putin is just doing a standard, venal land grab.
(Score: 1, Flamebait) by legont on Sunday August 28 2022, @07:58PM (37 children)
So to do that he attacked 240,000 army with 160,000 force. Think again.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 2, Informative) by khallow on Sunday August 28 2022, @08:09PM (36 children)
Just means he underestimated the opposition.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by legont on Sunday August 28 2022, @08:41PM (35 children)
It means he had no choice.
In case you are interested, here is an opinion I totally agree with; well, perhaps 90%
You have to watch it all the way to the end though.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwj5ieCFser5AhVrjYkEHb8MAHQQtwJ6BAgREAI&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DGXOWZnRCc20&usg=AOvVaw0TfupcvO80H3bWr4u6ObT7 [google.com]
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by khallow on Sunday August 28 2022, @09:02PM (19 children)
Sure he did. Don't attack is an obvious second choice.
(Score: 0, Flamebait) by legont on Monday August 29 2022, @12:36AM (18 children)
Stalin did not attack back in 1941. Russian peoples paid dearly for this mistake.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 2, Informative) by khallow on Monday August 29 2022, @12:38AM (8 children)
Having Stalin as a leader was a dearer mistake.
(Score: 0, Flamebait) by legont on Monday August 29 2022, @12:45AM (7 children)
No, if not for Stalin, there would be no Russia; and no Europe for this matter. Perhaps not even the USA
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday August 29 2022, @12:51AM (6 children)
Possibly even no Nazi Germany since Germany wouldn't have a place for their military research or later an ally in carving up Eastern Europe!
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday August 29 2022, @01:01AM
(Score: 0, Flamebait) by legont on Monday August 29 2022, @01:03AM (4 children)
You just crossed the red line in my book
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday August 29 2022, @03:28AM (3 children)
(Score: 0, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 29 2022, @05:14AM (2 children)
Wall Street and the Brits were much bigger enablers with their own anti-communist crusade.. Stalin didn't finance the Nazis. It's time you remember that!
(Score: 4, Informative) by quietus on Monday August 29 2022, @01:05PM
(Score: 3, Interesting) by khallow on Monday August 29 2022, @01:55PM
Merely getting financed isn't the issue. Hitler had solved the funding issue with or without the alleged support of Wall Street and Brits. Lot of seedy groups get financed now just as then. Nazis merely were the ones who were on top when the Wiemar Republic fell.
The big thing you're missing is that the USSR under Stalin was instrumental in the German military's efforts to evade the conditions of the Treaty of Versailles and that started well before the Nazis were a factor. The Blitzkrieg doctrine (combined arms and mobility warfare) and necessary equipment like modern tanks and fighter-bomber close support wouldn't have been possible without the development efforts between the Germans and Soviets. For example, this link [rbth.com] describes the secret bases that Germany shared with the USSR for aviation, tank warfare, and chemical warfare.
While the article doesn't discuss it much, doctrinal development and hosting part of the German General Staff was part of this massive cooperation between the two countries.
And then there's that ugly partitioning of Poland that you blow off. Needless to say there was more than a decade of very important cooperation between the USSR under Stalin and the Wiemar Republic, later Nazi Germany, that made the future invasion of the USSR possible.
Keep in mind that the USSR was yet another of the countries that had veto power over Nazi Germany's efforts to expand in the mid 1930s. For example, when Nazi Germany invaded the Rhineland or its other early expansionist moves, the USSR could have occupied Eastern Prussia, forcing Hitler into humiliating retreat.
(Score: 1, Troll) by legont on Monday August 29 2022, @12:47AM (8 children)
BTW, during his speak of the special operation, Putin specifically said that he is not going to repeat Stalin's mistake.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday August 29 2022, @12:53AM (7 children)
(Score: 2) by legont on Monday August 29 2022, @01:00AM (3 children)
Are you kidding? The deal was NATO would never move in any former soviet states such as east Germany, baltics and so on.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday August 29 2022, @01:03AM (2 children)
Was it? Can you point to the treaty that has that?
(Score: 0, Flamebait) by legont on Monday August 29 2022, @01:11AM (1 child)
Don't Jew out on me.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday August 29 2022, @03:25AM
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday August 29 2022, @01:15AM (2 children)
Not very good obstructions, until they ramped up a proxy war to defend Ukraine. Putin's earlier conquests must not have had sufficient support in NATO member states to trigger the containment response.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday August 29 2022, @03:27AM (1 child)
Well, Russia won't get Ukraine with baby steps.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday August 29 2022, @10:51AM
They would have been more successful by continuing to take bite sized chunks. The "liberating our oppressed brethren" rhetoric was useless, any oppressed ethnic Russians in Ukraine would have been much better served by relocating to Russia than by Russia shelling their cities.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 28 2022, @10:20PM
Your video without all the tracking and advertising.
https://www.youtube.com/embed/GXOWZnRCc20 [youtube.com]
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 29 2022, @12:31AM
Looked up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Black_(politician) [wikipedia.org]
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday August 29 2022, @01:10AM (12 children)
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday August 29 2022, @01:17AM (11 children)
Is loss of Trump actually weakness against Russia? Billions in open military support says otherwise, and we can only guess if our agent orange would have gone against the reds as hard.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 1, Insightful) by khallow on Monday August 29 2022, @03:13AM (10 children)
Consider the US retreat from Afghanistan, leaving the Taliban in control. I grant it may well have been necessary in some form. But it was poorly planned and executed, leading to some unknown number of US citizens and allies left in Afghanistan - a profoundly ignominious display of US weakness and incompetence. That was in August 2021. By December, Putin was building up his forces for invasion in late February. I think cause and effect is well established.
And one wonders if the US could have managed something that didn't leave the Taliban in complete control of Afghanistan. It wasn't even that well established in 2002 prior to the US invasion.
I would consider Trump partially at fault for this. Afghanistan's old government didn't magically become this unstable only during the Biden administration.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday August 29 2022, @10:47AM (7 children)
I'll take that bait: yes US involvement in Afghanistan was poorly planned and executed... From the start it was an obvious Vietnam replay and not withdrawing would have driven US global power (strength) down just like Afghanistan involvement effectively ended the USSR just a few years earlier.
If something needed to be done in Afghanistan it needed to be done long before 9-11, not as a political opportunity afterwards.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday August 29 2022, @01:59PM (6 children)
That's silly. The US can't meddle deeply in every country in the world just in case it's instrumental at some future date - especially since it might result in a variety of Vietnam-style defeats with no potential for further US interests.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday August 29 2022, @04:46PM (5 children)
>The US can't meddle deeply in every country in the world
Not _every_ country, but historically: a large number of them. Certainly Afghanistan merited the short list placement.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday August 29 2022, @05:50PM (4 children)
Only if you knew about 911.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday August 29 2022, @06:50PM (3 children)
Oh, grow up. We (U.S. intelligence) knew about 9-11 before it went down: the major players, where they were operating from, their basic capabilities, that they were planning something big, and on the days leading up to it the FBI relocated a husband of a friend (who happened to be a rather rare Farsi speaker) to San Francisco because they knew that the flight to San Francisco was a key part of the big event. All of this before the special surveillance permissions that came after 9-11.
If nothing else, we should have been taking better care of the assets we enabled in Afghanistan during our proxy war with Russia there.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday August 29 2022, @07:02PM (2 children)
And yet none of the following indicated that Afghanistan warranted the special attention you seem to think should have been obvious.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday August 29 2022, @08:33PM (1 child)
The groups being monitored were well tied to Afghanistan before the event, or do you think we just "clued in" about that part in the 48 hours afterwards?
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday August 29 2022, @11:55PM
"Tied to" doesn't mean reason to meddle.
(Score: 2) by quietus on Monday August 29 2022, @01:11PM (1 child)
Perhaps the US retreat from Afghanistan was a ruse? After all, to flog old Sun-Tzu, All Warfare is Deception and When Weak, feign Strength, When Strong, feign Weakness.
What the retreat in Afghanistan mainly showed was that, if necessary, Western forces will send big airplanes to evacuate anybody who can proof he worked for them.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday August 29 2022, @02:23PM
Lulling reality into a false sense of security? So that's how I'll explain my life! ;-)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 28 2022, @10:41PM (18 children)
Not nearly as well as the Americans are, you being a case in point on its effect. Nobody here knows why he attacked, you just take the tabloids' view at face value without question.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday August 29 2022, @12:27AM
Because disagreement has to be American propaganda. I'll note that the AC replier to mcgrew that started this pointless thread about American propaganda didn't actually say that mcgrew's comment was false, just that it was somehow "mass media".
(Score: 2, Insightful) by khallow on Monday August 29 2022, @02:03AM (16 children)
We can note that the excuses so far have been bullshit. NATO has never been at war with Russia - not even now. There aren't many Nazis in Ukraine nor have they shown themselves to be any sort of threat to Russia. Various parties have handwaved [soylentnews.org] that Ukraine might have somehow attacked Russian territory without Russia saying anything about it.
We can use that gray matter to come up with some reasons. For example, there has been this repeated historical pattern where Russian rulers have moved into Eastern Europe with some empire building. Ukraine is one of those stepping stones. And today, it's the biggest Eastern European neighbor of Russia other than Poland.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 29 2022, @05:00AM (15 children)
Yeah, like you would know... And Mcgrew doesn't know either. None of you know. You just say what the TV tells you.. very patriotic..
(Score: 2, Insightful) by khallow on Monday August 29 2022, @05:13AM (14 children)
Indeed. [soylentnews.org] The TL;DR for those who don't want to read the link is that a bunch of far right groups banded together and picked up slightly over 2% of the vote in the 2019 Ukrainian parliamentary elections. That likely is a larger group than the neo-nazis that have you wetting your pants.
Because your ignorance trumps our knowledge?
I don't watch TV news at all. Come up with a narrative that isn't bullshit.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 29 2022, @05:25AM (13 children)
Great link! Proves all my points.. Thank you!
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday August 29 2022, @02:02PM (12 children)
If your points were that you were an idiot. Else it doesn't.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 29 2022, @08:08PM (11 children)
Non-responsive.. very typical when you are proven wrong
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday August 29 2022, @08:16PM (10 children)
That's why I post from an account. I responded earlier - read that. Your trash talk didn't warrant further serious response.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 29 2022, @08:21PM (9 children)
I'm not gonna run in your little propaganda ant mill. You were proven wrong in that link you sent. I'm not going to rehash it again. You are wrong and that's that...
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday August 29 2022, @08:22PM (8 children)
Then you're not going to win this argument.
Saying doesn't make it so. Where's your evidence?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 29 2022, @08:53PM (7 children)
Who the hell cares if I win an argument with you?? You're not even arguing, you just repeat tabloid gossip.
Where's yours?? Propaganda is not evidence
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday August 30 2022, @12:03AM (6 children)
I do. And my opinion is more important to me than your pathetic whining.
Sure, it is even when it is propaganda. You just have to understand how to properly interpret propaganda, a skill you apparently don't have.
What I find weird is that I first asserted that there were few neo-nazis in Ukraine, and provided as proof the fact that far right groups which would include more than just neo-nazis only picked up 2% of the vote in a few years ago election. They're round off error, confirming my assertion as expected.
Now, some AC is babbling about propaganda in complete disregard for that? Sorry, this just demonstrates that your viewpoint is absolutely worthless since you are conflating real world facts with imaginary propaganda/tabloid gossip. I wish people like you would just get a clue rather than a bullshit narrative.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 30 2022, @04:54AM (5 children)
Exactly! You are expressing your opinion, a highly biased one (perfectly understandable), based entirely on the source of your propaganda, with no supporting evidence Thank you
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday August 30 2022, @12:30PM (4 children)
Based on fact. That makes it a so-called "educated opinion". Meanwhile you're not actually expressing an opinion. My view is that there's even a good chance that you're false flagging it, expressing a contrary opinion extremely poorly in order to undermine it.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 30 2022, @05:34PM (3 children)
Wrong again. You have been proven wrong by several others. Your responses reveal how blinded you are by bias. Your are simply prejudiced by the source, not by "facts" of any kind, but, since it's just your opinion anyway, feel free to carry on, we are amused enough to respond.. keep the ant mill running
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday August 30 2022, @11:23PM (2 children)
I take it you don't get what proof means. It means some sort of argument that others can follow to validate your claims, beliefs, or opinions. It doesn't mean "NUH UH".
In other words, this is a lazy ad hominem. The problem with that dumbass assertion is that every source is biased in some way. You just threw away any attempt to understand the world - welcome to flat Earthism.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 31 2022, @03:29AM (1 child)
No, it's the simple truth. You are blinded by bias
(Score: 2, Funny) by khallow on Wednesday August 31 2022, @03:52AM
(Score: 1, Flamebait) by Runaway1956 on Sunday August 28 2022, @07:42PM (35 children)
Yeah, whatever. Let's pretend that the Azov battalion wasn't shelling the breakaway republics pretty much around the clock, since 2014. You know, Russia just attacked for no reason, out of the blue, no rhyme, no reason.
It just kills me how apparently intelligent people don't see any cause and effect, consequences, and more cause and effect, snowballing forward. The Koch brothers and all the rest knew they were starting a shit storm when they funded the coup in Ukraine. Apparently, they didn't understand how big a shitstorm the coup would eventually lead to.
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 1, Flamebait) by legont on Sunday August 28 2022, @07:49PM (1 child)
The guy seems to believe that Russia is shelling a nuclear power station under her control. Just saying...
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 2) by quietus on Monday August 29 2022, @01:14PM
Hmm. Is that the reason that there are artillery pieces stationed on the terrain of that nuclear power plant? To shoot down incoming shells?
(Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday August 28 2022, @07:53PM (32 children)
Last I checked, that's not Russian territory - no business of theirs, right? And if Ukraine wasn't at war with those republics, there wouldn't be shelling. Not seeing a serious argument there.
So what? If Russia wasn't such a shitty country to begin with, this wouldn't have happened in the first place. And the shitstorm is better than being a Russian puppet and having that shitstorm happen to neighbors of Ukraine instead, like the Baltic states or Moldova with Ukrainian soldiers used as cannon fodder for Russian schemes.
Neither did Putin. My take is that this sad road is still the best one out there. A bunch of people will die, Putin will eventually leave power, and Russia will eventually come to its senses. We'll just have to see if it comes before or after some "limited" nuclear war.
(Score: 1, Flamebait) by Runaway1956 on Sunday August 28 2022, @08:04PM (9 children)
The US has no territory in Ukraine or Russia - no business of ours, right?
Let's try to do better than "My side, right or wrong!"
Is there a new epidemic that I was unaware of? Politicians are suddenly coming to their senses? I've seen no evidence of any such thing, anywhere in the world.
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday August 28 2022, @09:00PM (8 children)
Your argument not mine.
For glaring examples, Germany and Japan since the 1930s.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Runaway1956 on Sunday August 28 2022, @09:15PM (7 children)
Nonsense. I threw your own argument right back at you. The US has no legitimate business in Ukraine, certainly not any more legitimate than Russia's interest in Ukraine.
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday August 29 2022, @12:50AM
Sounds like a typical "not our business" argument from February 23 of this year.
(Score: 2) by quietus on Monday August 29 2022, @01:39PM (5 children)
Depends how upon you see the role of the largest economy of the world, the emitter of the world's reserve currency to which the rest of the monetary system is anchored.
View this system of nations of ours as a natural system, like a pack of wolves. If alpha wolf shows weakness, he will be attacked by others who want to take his position. That will create chaos and turmoil within the group, and a period of intense agressiveness among all the other members, trying to determine their new position within the group.
In this case, alpha wolf has shown a bit too much lenience (Chechnya, Georgia, Armenia, the Crim, Hong Kong, Xinjiang) towards two other wolves. The end result is more chaos, and more deaths to ordinary people.
You might not like to hear this as an American, seeing his or her relatives being shipped off to fight and die in foreign places, but that's where you are now, through historic coincidence: either Rome shows its strength, or it is burnt to the ground.
(Score: 1) by Runaway1956 on Monday August 29 2022, @02:07PM (4 children)
Yeah, that's pretty much the historical way of things. One empire after another, one kingdom after another, entire civilizations have come and gone.
Some of those empires have gone, simply because they overextended their power. Others have rotted from within. I think we have both of those traits. At present, there is no really strong rival that we need to fear, but the potential for an alliance against us is strong. A Russia-China-India hegemony would be unbeatable.
I won't pretend to know what the future holds, but the US-UK-EU hegemony may well be taking second place in the not-distant future, measured in decades.
However, nuclear arms change that old equation. I don't think we'll be burnt to the ground. There's a lot of reasonably comfortable room in second place when you can threaten to destroy any nation's capitol along with most of their military in a matter of minutes.
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 2) by legont on Tuesday August 30 2022, @01:07AM (3 children)
Let's name it. The goal of Russian operation in Ukraine is to end the US hegemony. They want to end unipolar world for multipolar one. Putin openly said that back in 2007, was getting ready since then, and yes, chose the best possible moment. It's WWIII we have coming, like it or not.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday August 30 2022, @02:59AM (2 children)
The irony here is that Russia demonstrates by this incompetent invasion that they are unworthy of being one of those poles. They already have a terrible economy. Now, they have a terrible military with terrible leadership too.
Unless, of course, it's not coming. Russia just doesn't have good follow through.
But even if he's serious about it, there's alternate outcomes. Maybe Putin will get booted and someone with a less ridiculous and paranoid viewpoint will take charge. Maybe they'll find that their nuclear forces are suffering from the same lack of attention to detail that nailed their invasion forces. Could make that WW3 real one sided.
And let's face it, we're already in a multipolar world, with Russia (at least as of present) still serving as one of those "poles". Insecurity does not a pole make.
(Score: 2) by legont on Tuesday August 30 2022, @03:34AM (1 child)
75% of world's population did not join sanctions. As we speak, Russia has military drills with China and India. Russian economy is fine. It contracted 2% while payments for Russian exports doubled. Local business is booming taking over market of western companies that left. Rubble is the strongest currency in the world right now as payments for energy have to be in rubles.
It all may change, off course, given some time. We'll see...
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday August 30 2022, @01:07PM
How much trade does Russia have going on with that 75%?
To what end? It'll have no military significance in Ukraine.
It'll coast along gloriously until their economy collapses. The great irony here is that even in the absence of war, the Russian economy would be on the ropes. It's even worse now. And there's no point to a "strongest currency in the world", if you can't do anything with it, like buy stuff.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 28 2022, @10:49PM (21 children)
It's on their border, and there is a high probability some of that Ukrainian shelling may have crossed over, all bets are off in your phony little "morality" play here. You really are quite the desktop warrior, eh?
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday August 29 2022, @12:29AM (20 children)
In other words, you have no evidence that any of the alleged Ukrainian shelling crossed over the border into Russia. That indicates to me that you have a high probability of bluffing here.
Still looking for a competent foe.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 29 2022, @05:06AM (19 children)
You have no evidence Putin was unprovoked, plenty of evidence was shown that he was, the 2014 coup for starters, you dismiss all sources aside from your tabloids out of hand, you just believe the comfortable lies. You are a victim of information warfare.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday August 29 2022, @05:18AM (18 children)
There's your complete inability to find a provocation.
Bullshit. The previous government was a Russian puppet and they were in the process of taking apart the democracy. A few days before the final coup, they banned public protests. Putin made a bet and lost it. Good riddance.
And a legitimate provocation for a Russian invasion? That's bullshit.
Sounds like you're projecting hard especially since you've never disputed the facts, just the sources.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 29 2022, @05:59AM (17 children)
You have to provide facts for me to dispute. All you do is parrot mass media lies, not facts. You really are the victim here.
(Score: 3, Touché) by khallow on Monday August 29 2022, @02:18PM (16 children)
Sigh:
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 29 2022, @08:14PM (15 children)
A simple, but effective lie. The coup was financed, planned, executed by outsiders. Why do you continue to spread lies? You have yet to provide any real evidence to any of your claims, you just repeat propaganda
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday August 29 2022, @08:21PM (14 children)
The thing that makes it simple but effective also makes it not a lie - it's true.
Even if that were true, it doesn't make my claim false.
I noted that Yanukovych ran to Russia when he got kicked out. He's also doing the Quisling act [republicworld.com] now. And keep in mind that the whole Euromaidan mess started because he unexpectedly blew up negotiations with the EU on associate status for Ukraine. That didn't benefit anyone but a few Russians.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 29 2022, @08:57PM (8 children)
Ho hum.. Just another lie on your part...
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday August 29 2022, @11:57PM (7 children)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 30 2022, @04:03AM (6 children)
Why? It's a wasted effort, you choose to believe your propaganda, while claiming, without knowing, all contrary info is enemy propaganda. It's ok, you are the victim here, this is how information warfare works
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday August 30 2022, @12:29PM (5 children)
Because we're not the only two people on the internet. Any other reader will notice that you continue, post after post to just trashtalk without saying a thing. Unless, of course, you change that behavior.
My view is that lack of anything is a blazing acknowledgement that your argument is crap.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 30 2022, @05:18PM (4 children)
Just proving you are full of it. That link you put up for me also proves it, and a few other people too, in perfect agreement with me. It's ok, you just see things as you want, not as they are, no biggie, just an amusing thing, keep up the good work
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday August 30 2022, @11:24PM (3 children)
I bet that aside from your small coterie of retards nobody else buys that argument.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 31 2022, @03:32AM (2 children)
:-) Very revealing.. Thank you!
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday August 31 2022, @03:53AM (1 child)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 31 2022, @07:02PM
Oh, you can be assured, dear sir, we are... As always, thanks for the laughs
(Score: 3, Interesting) by legont on Tuesday August 30 2022, @01:15AM (4 children)
Let's not forget that Yanukovych was elected twice. Elected, overthrown, elected again after a few cycles, and overthrown again. It looks to me as a well organized group of rioters against the will of the people.
What's really bad, the second time they used Nazi for the revolt. My mother was a Nazi death camp survivor and I have very short fuse for Nazi and people who use them. And Nuland who used them is running the same show as we speak.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday August 30 2022, @02:35AM (3 children)
Was he? There seems to be a claim [aljazeera.com] that the 2004 election was fraudulent in favor of Yanukovych - by the Ukrainian Supreme Court which annulled the election as a result.
Looks to me like a really terrible, divisive politician who's showing his true colors now by running psych ops for an invader. Your narrative just doesn't fit. You don't get repeated mass movement coups against strong, popular leaders. And those leaders don't turn around and betray their people by collaborating with a serious foe.
Even Nazis have a right to speak and have democratic representation.
Even if that were true, so what? Those Ukrainian nazis had nothing to do with the death camps. Even most German Nazis of the time didn't. And given your apologism for Stalin in this thread, you don't have a leg to stand on. He was a Hitler who got away with it.
Further, the person really using those nazis is Putin. The Nazis in Ukraine excuse is one seriously lazy piece of propaganda.
(Score: 2) by legont on Tuesday August 30 2022, @03:02AM
Girl Scout cookies in Lviv. Dishes include brains of Russian Jewish politician. The drink is called "blood of Russian toddlers".
https://youtu.be/cduh7m3mm8o [youtu.be]
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by legont on Tuesday August 30 2022, @03:13AM (1 child)
But I see your logic now.
West created Hitler because it needed to fight Stalin then Hitler turned on the west and it's Russian fault.
The US created Bin Laden to fight Soviets than he blew up WTC and sure it is Russia's fault.
Right now the US is creating Nazi Ukraine. One day they will turn and go after the West and it will be Russian fault as well.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday August 30 2022, @01:03PM
Let me guess, you're actually a member of Ukrainian intelligence and deliberately presenting a crap argument to undermine it? A person who is sincere and genuinely sees logic wouldn't have stated the above.
Let's pretend for a bit that you're sincere here and just fail to see logic. The first is just fact. Germany is part of the West and their people and powers did greatly support Hitler and the Nazis due to the notorious anti-communist stance of the Nazis. That part is true, but in a rather trivial way. There was no smoke filled room going "Oh, we need to create some nasty people and blame it on the Russians."
As I noted, the USSR did host the German military and give it a great deal of help in circumventing the conditions of the Treaty of Versailles. They also partitioned Poland. And paid for all that years later when the natural consequence of Operation Barbarossa happened. Finally, the Stalin mistake was an inevitable consequence of such a paranoid yet gullible person like Stalin in charge. He was more concerned about rooting out and murdering imaginary enemies, crippling the leadership of the Soviet military in the process, than in defending the USSR from its worst enemies ever.
My take is that Stalin was extremely lucky that the Nazis were even worse for Russian citizens. If Hitler had been perceived as the lesser of two evils, you likely would be speaking German now.
As to the Al Qaeda attacks, nobody blamed them on the Russians. That's just your ridiculous fantasy.
Where are the nazis? The narrative fails. As I noted, you can't find many of them.
With what army? Nazis aren't magic, able to raise professional armies out of dirt with the wave of a wand. The German approached required more than a decade of hard and very secretive preparation (which as I noted above required a lot of help from outside Germany with the USSR being the primary supporter) even before Hitler and his Nazis were a factor! That's things like technology development, preserving and building education and skills of viable high and mid level officers, and developing new military doctrines to use this rapidly changing technology.
This just isn't a serious argument. Ukrainian nazis just aren't going to be running rampant.
And I think it misses the biggest point of all. Namely, that Putin seems to create these problems with every region he touches: neonazis in Ukraine and Russia, jihadists in Syria, etc. Maybe it's time for you to think here. Who really are the nazis here? Putin just conducted a classic Nazi-style invasion of another country right up to the lazy causus belli lies.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by khallow on Sunday August 28 2022, @03:10PM (12 children)
They had six months to get that direct confrontation. Just move NATO troops and gear into Ukraine and directly confront Russia.
That hasn't happened. Get another narrative.
(Score: 1) by Runaway1956 on Sunday August 28 2022, @05:30PM (11 children)
It ain't over 'til the phat lady sings. Six months? Whoop-ti-do, how many wars and police actions have finished in 6 months? A one year war is an exception to the rule. This stupid shit always drags on and on, and there is a lot of time for a bunch of idiots to miscalculate what the other side's response will be to any particular action. You can almost, but not completely rule out the West making a first strike over some provocation.
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 28 2022, @06:21PM (7 children)
If Putin was smart, he would have done a long stalemate guerilla misinformation war from the start. The West has no response to that. All out confrontation is literally what we spend trillions of dollars preparing for every year.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday August 28 2022, @07:39PM (6 children)
If Putin was smart, he wouldn't have needed to invade in the first place.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 28 2022, @08:28PM (5 children)
Isn't that precisely what he wants you to think?
(Score: 2, Insightful) by khallow on Sunday August 28 2022, @09:33PM (4 children)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 28 2022, @09:45PM (3 children)
You're stuck in 2D, my friend.
(Score: 2, Funny) by khallow on Monday August 29 2022, @12:22AM (2 children)
Sounds like you're stuck in 0D - going nowhere with arguments nobody buys.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 29 2022, @04:26AM (1 child)
Then I have a point.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday August 29 2022, @05:19AM
(Score: 2, Insightful) by khallow on Sunday August 28 2022, @07:37PM (2 children)
If the West was hankering for a showdown, this one would.
Indeed. But it's not because "the west seems to be hellbent on a direct confrontation with Russia". We'd see different behavior, if that was the case.
(Score: 2) by PiMuNu on Sunday August 28 2022, @09:58PM (1 child)
US + Western Europe could, I believe, wipe the floor with Russia militarily.
But what is the end game? Invade Russia and topple a popular leader to replace him with... ? What does that really achieve?
Kill a bunch of Russian soldiers and then stop at the Russian border? What does that really achieve?
Far better to "do an Afghanistan" on them (by which I refer to the fall of the Soviet Union in 1980s, not the recent US et al debacle).
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday August 29 2022, @05:55PM
We all should make it a habit of replacing leaders who pass their shelf-life. Word is that Putin is trying to set up another bogus referendum. How popular is he really when he has this habit of rigging elections? How would we know?
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 28 2022, @03:18PM (1 child)
Indeed. If we just let Putin do whatever he wants, I'm sure everything would work out just peachy.
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 28 2022, @04:06PM
Such a good point.
Success breeds success - if Putin thinks reforming the USSR is attainable with himself as the great uniter then.... guess what he will do? It doesn't hurt him, 80k dead Russian kids, meh, compared to his everlasting glory.
(Score: 3, Funny) by mcgrew on Sunday August 28 2022, @06:23PM (2 children)
There's no such word in the English language as "hellbent", you dirty Russian monster. Spew your communist propaganda elsewhere.
Carbon, The only element in the known universe to ever gain sentience
(Score: 2) by HiThere on Sunday August 28 2022, @07:30PM (1 child)
Your detection mechanism is broken. True, the phrase is "hell bent", but as typos go that's trivial. (This doesn't mean your attribution is wrong. On that I have no opinion. I'm just quibbling about your proclaimed reasoning.)
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 28 2022, @08:31PM
EnglishAmerican is a purebred language that is a repository our unchanging and priceless heritage. No bastard words allowed, only pure unspoilt Aryan.