Mikhail Gorbachev, Who Ended the Cold War, Dies Aged 91 -Agencies
Mikhail Gorbachev, who ended the Cold War, dies aged 91 -agencies:
Mikhail Gorbachev, who ended the Cold War without bloodshed but failed to prevent the collapse of the Soviet Union, died on Tuesday at the age of 91, Russian news agencies cited hospital officials as saying.
Gorbachev, the last Soviet president, forged arms reduction deals with the United States and partnerships with Western powers to remove the Iron Curtain that had divided Europe since World War Two and bring about the reunification of Germany.
When pro-democracy protests swept across the Soviet bloc nations of communist Eastern Europe in 1989, he refrained from using force - unlike previous Kremlin leaders who had sent tanks to crush uprisings in Hungary in 1956 and Czechoslovakia in 1968.
But the protests fuelled aspirations for autonomy in the 15 republics of the Soviet Union, which disintegrated over the next two years in chaotic fashion.
Gorbachev struggled in vain to prevent that collapse.
Russian Media: Ex-Soviet Leader Mikhail Gorbachev Dead at 91
Russian media: Ex-Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev dead at 91:
MOSCOW (AP) — Russian news agencies are reporting that former Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev has died at 91. The Tass, RIA Novosti and Interfax agencies cited the Central Clinical Hospital.
(Score: 4, Troll) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday August 31 2022, @08:10AM (43 children)
He ended the Cold War, and here we all are, heating it back up. And, no, it isn't Putin doing it all by himself. He may be leading the dance, but half the fools in the world have jumped in to follow Putin's lead.
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 4, Touché) by janrinok on Wednesday August 31 2022, @08:17AM (41 children)
(Score: 1) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday August 31 2022, @08:50AM (28 children)
Nahhhhhh, just Ukraine and France.
Seriously, what was that whole Minsk agreement about? Wasn't that where Russia invited NATO to set up "defensive" missile batteries right on Russia's borders?
Again, it's amazing how apparently intelligent people drink up the western propaganda, never questioning it.
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 5, Informative) by Thexalon on Wednesday August 31 2022, @10:49AM (27 children)
The Minsk agreement that you reference made the following deal, in a nutshell: Ukraine gives up its Soviet-era nukes to Russia, in exchange for Russia promising they'd never invade Ukraine.
Ukraine by all appearances doesn't have any nukes. At the very least, Russia doesn't think they have nukes, because that would have made them more reluctant to invade because even 1 very short-range nuclear missile would allow Ukraine to make a crater out of a major Russian city or two (Rostov, Voronezh, and Volgograd would be on the target list). In case you haven't figured out how much of a deterrent even a handful of nukes is, notice that the US and its allies haven't attacked North Korea since they got 'em. And by a complete coincidence, Ukraine was a country with valuable resources on Russia's border while also not being a member of either the EU or NATO, so was really the only part of the old Warsaw Pact that Russia could attack without risking nuclear retaliation from either the US or France.
Russia has broken their end of that agreement repeatedly, taking over Crimea, and by backing the rebellion against Ukraine in Donetsk and Luhansk. And then invading earlier this year.
Also worth mentioning here: Even if you accept the Russian version of events, the alleged reason for the invasion, Ukraine coordinating with a fascist group so that the fascist group fights for its national government rather than against it, no longer applies and hasn't for a while, because that fascist group was killed or captured in Mariopol months ago. Not sure how any of that explains Russian troops lining up the male population of Bucha and shooting them, though.
It's amazing how apparently intelligent people drink up the Russian propaganda, never questioning it.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday August 31 2022, @12:31PM (21 children)
They hadn't attacked North Korea before that point either. But that in part would have been due to nukes as well.
Funny how Russia can brazenly violate treaty without consequence while the alleged prohibition against NATO expansion can't be found anywhere in treaty. As I noted earlier, if that really was important to Russia, then why didn't they get that in writing? There were several treaties where that would have worked out.
(Score: 2, Touché) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday August 31 2022, @12:36PM (12 children)
https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early [gwu.edu]
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 5, Informative) by janrinok on Wednesday August 31 2022, @02:06PM (11 children)
But the Russians still did not get that agreement in writing.
I was in Moscow on behalf of my Government from 1999-2002. I can assure you that there were numerous visits by NATO staff and representatives of many NATO countries visiting Russia - all trying to build a friendly relationship with Russia.
When Putin came to power as acting President following the early resignation of Yeltsin, there was an immediate chilling of any such friendly attempts on the part of the Russians. Many of the cooperative political, military and cultural links that had already been created were shut down by the Russians. Despite the West's best efforts not to have winners and losers, Putin and many others felt that they had already lost and were looking at how to regain their once influential position in the world. Many Russian politicians despised the West while the population were still enjoying a much more friendly and less threatening relationship with foreigners. From that point onwards my time in Russia became a more unpleasant experience.
Whatever has happened since it is not because the West didn't try to find a reasonable compromise position from which both sides could more forward.
You can quote whatever documents you like - I was there and experienced it.
(Score: 0, Troll) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday August 31 2022, @06:08PM (10 children)
So . . . Maidan was a "reasonable compromise". Got it. As well as the massacre in Kherson and the prohibition against the Russian language, and the eventual shelling of what are now the breakaway republics.
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 4, Informative) by quietus on Wednesday August 31 2022, @06:36PM
As to the prohibition of the Russian language, you're referring to this law of April 2019 (Ukrainian) [rada.gov.ua]: English translation (courtesy of the Ukrainian Government) here [rada.gov.ua]. Note that there are multiple versions of the law, starting from April 25, 2019. The last amendment was made recently, May 7 of this year. You can easily change versions by using a dropdown box on the upper left of the page, to the right of the scales/balance symbol.
The law establishes mandatory use of the Ukrainian language in most areas of public and communal life, including the mass media, education, science, etc.
However, the law does not forbid the use of Russian or other languages in private communication and religious ceremonies. Moreover, Russian and other languages can be present in book publishing, the press, including radio and television, education and the service sector. The law allows the use of other languages in the healthcare system and law enforcement.
In addition to this, the law stipulates that in accordance with the European Charter for Regional Languages and Languages of National Minorities, the government should develop a law safeguarding language-rights of the minorities within six months of the language law entering into force.
For discrimination of the Ukrainian language, including in favour of Russian, only administrative penalties are foreseen by law. For violating language policy in the humanitarian sphere - education, science, culture, sports - there is a fine of 200-300 times the non-taxable minimum wage (now it has risen from 3400 to 5100 hryvnias).
(Score: 2) by janrinok on Wednesday August 31 2022, @07:07PM (1 child)
Read the dates on my previous comment - the die was cast in 2021. Putin wasn't going to accept anything less. Everything since then has been building up to what we see today.
(Score: 2) by janrinok on Wednesday August 31 2022, @07:08PM
(Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday September 01 2022, @12:00PM (6 children)
A friendly country that wasn't a Russian puppet? Sounds like a reasonable compromise to me.
(Score: 1) by Runaway1956 on Thursday September 01 2022, @01:32PM (5 children)
Never mind the fact that the coup was organized and funded jointly by the CIA and various billionaires who stood to make truckloads of money. Ukraine is now the latest member of the banana republics club.
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday September 01 2022, @09:07PM (4 children)
Because Koch brother cooties invalidate a coup. I wonder if the US Revolutionary War is similarly invalid due to French cooties?
And do we have any evidence that the Koch brothers (or other billionaires) made a serious contribution?
Given that Ukraine was a member of the banana republics club before due to Russian control, this isn't saying much.
(Score: 1) by Runaway1956 on Thursday September 01 2022, @09:31PM (3 children)
Sweet Jesus. Russia didn't DO banana republics. That was a uniquely American thing. Call Ukraine and all the rest puppet governments, or whatever, but choose a term with some kind of meaning. Banana republic? Fek!
Why can't you just admit, and state the obvious? US/UK/EU and assorted billionaires paid to overthrow a legitimate, if corrupt, government, just to install their own illegitimate, and corrupt, government? Ukraine's current government is bought and paid for, partly with US taxpayer's money. Ukraine's government is no more legitimate than a dozen other nation's governments, which we don't like so much - Cuba, Libya, N. Korea, etc.
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday September 01 2022, @09:55PM (1 child)
North Korea, Ukraine, and Cuba as counterexamples then and now.
(Score: 1) by Runaway1956 on Thursday September 01 2022, @11:01PM
Well, at least Cuba grows bananas. However, US corporations don't own the plantations, and the CIA isn't standing by to change governments on a corporate whim. You WISH those three were banana republics.
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Friday September 02 2022, @01:28AM
I looked into this and well, the alleged obvious just isn't relevant. There were massive protests, a good reason for the protest - Yanukovych deep-sixing Ukraine's application for associate status with the EU which benefits no one in Ukraine (and only certain elites in Russia like Putin), and a gradual removal of freedom by Yanukovych's government culminating in a ban on protests a few days before the coup (how much erosion of democracy and freedom should they stomach?). And you have acknowledged [soylentnews.org] that citizens of a country have the right to overthrow their government. Sure looks to me like that's what happened, billionaire funding or not. That makes it legitimate enough for me.
Except, of course, they've already had an election and peaceful change of government. Exercise of democracy is very important to me - more so than your opinion of the legitimacy of governments.
Not at all. It's basically just installing a government for the profit of your country's elites. What was going to happen in Ukraine when they turned away from the biggest market on the continent and threw their lot in with the Russian kleptocrats? Banana republic time.
(Score: 2) by Thexalon on Wednesday August 31 2022, @04:42PM (7 children)
I knew some older guys at the VFW hall I performed music at who would very much disagree with you on that point. Unless you're erasing 1950-1953 from your history books.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday August 31 2022, @05:53PM
(Score: 1) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday August 31 2022, @06:11PM (5 children)
+1 informative - Bu - bu -but!! Korea was a "UN Police Action" if I recall correctly. Can you call a "police action" an attack? I think it's against the UN rules or something.
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday September 01 2022, @12:50AM (4 children)
Yes, when it is an attack. But in this case it was a North Korean invasion - they were the ones doing the attacking. I guess I shouldn't be surprised that you can't get who was attacking who in that war.
(Score: 1) by Runaway1956 on Thursday September 01 2022, @09:48AM (3 children)
I expect that from a colonizer like yourself. Remind me, what vital interests did the US/UK/Europe/UN have in South Korea at the time? The North Koreans didn't invade London, Paris, Berlin, or Washington, D.C. It was all those white people meddling in local affairs, if you don't recall.
Of course, there is the fact that the Soviet manipulated everyone involved. They were really good for a long time, at manipulating everyone in the world to kill each other for them.
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday September 01 2022, @10:49AM (2 children)
Two: first, it's an unprovoked invasion of an innocent country by another. We have interest in opposing those no matter where they happen. Second, it would have destabilized the US efforts in Japan and might have lead to further military defeat in the Pacific.
Refusal to be "manipulated" would result in the enslavement of 20 million South Koreans in 1950.
(Score: 1) by Runaway1956 on Thursday September 01 2022, @10:57AM (1 child)
Empire and colonization, you say? That justifies interfering in local affairs? Got it.
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday September 01 2022, @11:13AM
I think it's time to exercise those brain cells. How colonized is South Korea now? How colonized would it have been if the worst state on the planet were in charge? This actually is a successful repulsion of an attempt at colonization and empire building.
(Score: 2) by legont on Wednesday August 31 2022, @11:34PM (4 children)
That's not what it was. Ukraine gave up nukes in exchange for protection. Now the story goes that Ukraine's elected government was overthrown by a bunch of Nazi. Russia is protecting her - from Nazi occupation - while the West does nothing.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday September 01 2022, @12:56AM (3 children)
No. Russia merely promised to recognize Ukraine's sovereignty and territory - it has violated both provisions. And where's that Nazi occupation that Russia is cynically protecting Ukraine from? A reasonable person would not recognize the current situation in Ukraine as a Nazi occupation.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Thexalon on Thursday September 01 2022, @03:26AM (2 children)
Yeah, Zelinskyy must be one of those totally common Jewish Nazis, that's the only explanation.
But more importantly, you can tell which side of this fight has the support of the civilian population based on guerrilla and partisan activity in the territory occupied by that side. And there's a clear answer as to which side is on the receiving end of that - Russia is having its stuff blown up behind the lines and administrators assassinated, Ukraine isn't.
As for the claims that the Ukrainians are Nazis, that's serving precisely the same function as the equally ludicrous idea that Iraq was going to give weapons of mass destruction to Al Qaida. Most everyone spouting it knows it's false, but it provides a convenient excuse for doing what they want to do.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by legont on Thursday September 01 2022, @04:24AM (1 child)
Ukrainian Nazi killed a lot of Jews during WWII. Perhaps Zelensky is simply killing them back in revenge. Anyway, I fully expect this theory of his conspiracy with Putin to surface pretty soon. After all, Nazi battalion Azov already called him a traitor when he did not try to save them and later on a Ukrainian missile hit Azov's POW's in Russian capture. They will revenge I am sure.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 0, Troll) by khallow on Thursday September 01 2022, @11:15AM
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday August 31 2022, @10:42AM (5 children)
I'd say, rather, that the rest of the world should have pushed back on Russian expansion sooner rather than waiting for the Ukraine.
It looks like Blitzkrieg isn't working so well this time, 80 years later. The nature of weapons being supplied for the proxy war appear to have changed the game, not to mention radically improved communication.
Czechoslovakia March 1939. Poland (in cooperation with Russia) September 1939. France June 1940.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Thexalon on Wednesday August 31 2022, @11:37AM (4 children)
Blitzkrieg has never been the Russian approach to combat. They tend to focus on attrition and deception instead.
The reason that the UK, France, and US didn't do much to stop their expansion into eastern Europe back in the 1940's was (a) they didn't have the conventional forces to do so, and (b) they didn't want to use nukes there. The US nuking of Japan was enough to convince the Russians that they could only take mainland areas of Japanese territory and would not be able to claim the Japanese islands.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by khallow on Wednesday August 31 2022, @12:35PM
Rather the US nuking of Japan was enough to convince the Soviets that they couldn't take the rest of Europe. The US navy would have been more than adequate to keep them off the islands. Even if they could have landed a huge force, they couldn't keep it supplied.
(Score: 1) by Runaway1956 on Thursday September 01 2022, @10:05AM (2 children)
People, especially Americans, are enamored with that whole blitz concept. Sherman gave the idea birth during our Civil War, the Germans further developed and adapted the idea to mechanized warfare, then America adopted it, and made it their own again after WWII. Americans tend to project their own expectations of warfare onto other people, such as the Russians.
Reading what I've written, maybe I'm giving too much credit to Sherman. Others before him used light cavalry and forced marches with devastating effect, from the Asian steppes, to the American midwest, as well as Europe and other places around the world. Sherman studied all of those, to come up with his ideas for devastating the South. Rommel most definitely studied Sherman, and re-used a lot of what Sherman came up with.
Still, projection. We expect others to act the way we think that we would act, so Americans think that Russians are into blitzkrieg.
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday September 01 2022, @11:33AM (1 child)
When you pull it off, it's extremely effective. Why wouldn't we expect other militaries to do extremely effective things, right? It's healthier to be pleasantly surprised when a foe's military fails to meet your expectations, than to be unpleasantly surprised because they exceed your expectations.
As to Sherman, there are extremely powerful examples of blitzing in the Civil War that predate him. One of the most extreme examples was the Valley Campaign [wikipedia.org] of 1862. Confederate General Stonewall Jackson demonstrated the extreme effectiveness of the blitz technique with a mostly infantry force. He marched his force a bit over 1000 km in 48 days, defeating combined Union forces triple his manpower, and then showing up unexpected at a major battlefield [wikipedia.org] in southeastern Virginia in time to inflict a major defeat on the Union attempt to take the capitol of the Confederacy (Richmond, Virginia). Confederate Nathaniel Forrest also used blitz techniques with a small cavalry force to keep an area from northern Mississippi to western Kentucky unsettled and force a considerable diversion of Union forces to maintain a Union occupancy there.
The catch with blitzing with a large modern military is that it requires substantial logistics and coordination. Russia has failed on both. Incapability to implement blitz tactics was not by choice.
(Score: 1) by Runaway1956 on Thursday September 01 2022, @01:40PM
I don't have a text on Russian military doctrine to refer to. But, everything I've read on and around the subject of said doctrine says that it was a choice. Soviet, or post-Soviet, high command doesn't encourage field commanders or their subordinates to show a lot of initiative. Sherman and Rommel both showed that the on-site commander must have a high initiative.
Modern day US forces give a lot of lip service to initiative, but as always, the generals at the Pentagon hate for their subordinates to shine too brightly.
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by sorokin on Wednesday August 31 2022, @07:41PM (5 children)
If you really believe that Putin intended to attack European countries why did the Russian government kept $311 billions of reserve funds in Europe? Also in 2020 and 2021 they were only increasing their investment in Europe.
(Score: 2) by janrinok on Wednesday August 31 2022, @11:38PM (1 child)
Putin thought it would be over in days. And the west would not take any action because it would have been too late. Just as it was in 2014.
He miscalculated.
I don't believe that in 2001 he had plans to attack Ukraine in any specific time frame. He had hoped, probably expected, to see a pro-Russian government in Kiyv. I do, however, believe that he always intended to expand Russian influence to include many of the the independent states that made up the former USSR. He is now unwell, and he had perhaps thought that a victory in Ukraine would have been a final historic achievement for which he would be remembered in history. He will be remembered, but for all the wrong reasons.
(Score: 2) by Thexalon on Thursday September 01 2022, @03:36AM
He seems to have figured that the Ukrainians (a) weren't expecting the attack rather than making plans to deal with it for the last 5-10 years, (b) wouldn't have the support of the US - which would have been true had he attacked in 2019 or so rather than when he did, (c) the civilian population would support the Russians as liberators, and (d) that Ukraine's current leaders would be scared and flee. He was wrong on all counts.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday September 01 2022, @12:59AM (2 children)
Reserve funds can be moved later and as janrinok indicates, he didn't expect this level of failure.
(Score: 1) by Runaway1956 on Thursday September 01 2022, @10:51AM (1 child)
Revisit this in 5 years, then again in 10. What level of failure are we seeing here, on Russia's part? All of the western world seems to have united in efforts to destroy Russia's economy. But, the response to that has been loss of market here, and opening of markets elsewhere.
At this point in time, we certainly can't call Russia's economic strategy and tactics a success - but it hasn't been the dismal failure that we would like to think. And, ultimately, those shifting markets may prove a success.
It is commonly accepted that China is a rising power, so Russia can't go far wrong allying with China. India is another rising economic power, which Russia is currying favor with.
Going it alone, Russia really couldn't hope to challenge the economic power of the west. But, with ties to both China and India, they really don't need worry too much about US/UK/Euro sanctions.
Meanwhile, let's bear in mind that the west is pumping all the money they can muster into Ukraine right now. That isn't going to last. Winter is coming, and a helluva lot of people are going to be cold. The fervor for supporting Ukraine is going to wear thin, very quickly.
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday September 01 2022, @11:56AM
I think it'll be very educational for you. Russia isn't doing a thing to change its dive. I think it's whistling past the graveyard to suppose that a shift in trade to less profitable partners (after all, they wouldn't have done that, if they had the choice) combined with a brutal war is somehow good for the Russian economy.
To the contrary, Russia has a six month conflict that it was expecting to be a two week pushover. They've already failed at a significant scale. And this is on top of decades of kleptocracy.
How much value again does "currying favor" have? It doesn't magically give you a developed world economy or manufacturing.
We'll see. As noted above, Russia has already suffered major setback in its schemes. And the EU has both built up stores of natural gas and increased import from non-Russian sources (source [bruegel.org]). In a few years, I think liquid natural gas (LNG) imports from North America would more than compensate for the loss of natural gas from Russia.
(Score: 2) by Entropy on Wednesday August 31 2022, @06:21PM
Last laugh is the USSR's as the USA turns into a socialist/communist country.
(Score: 1, Troll) by unauthorized on Wednesday August 31 2022, @10:25AM (12 children)
Having some goon shoot up your seat of government and take power via military force is not called collapse, it's called a coup. The USSR was illegally dissolved against the democratically elected government, it's constitution and worst of all against the will of the people who had just a few years ago overwhelmingly voted against the dissolution of the union in a referendum. The so-called collapse was the outcome of nationalist and liberal elites across the republics deciding among themselves to dissolve the union.
For someone trying to preserve the Union, Gorby did everything in his power to destroy it. Not only did his liberalization reforms prove disastrous and caused the empty stores that people wrongfully associate with the communist administration before him, but he also created the post of the Soviet president explicitly for the purpose of bypassing the Supreme Soviet, which would later allow Yeltsin and his cronies to seize power and form the basis of modern Russian politics where an absurdly powerful president backed by the oligarchic elite de facto controls the state.
What a joke. When my country elected the communist party in a multi-party election, we saw millions pouring into the hands of pretty much everyone who was against the government coming straight from the USA in an attempt to undermine our democratic choice which was deemed legitimate according to all international observers, sans for those from Washington.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Opportunist on Wednesday August 31 2022, @10:36AM (3 children)
Wow, so that's the new narrative? Quite impressive, comrade, even back in the good old Prawda days we could not have said it any better.
(Score: 3, Informative) by sorokin on Wednesday August 31 2022, @07:30PM (2 children)
What exactly do you disagree with?
It is true that there was a referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Soviet_Union_referendum [wikipedia.org] and the majority (77.85%) of people voted in favor of preservation of Soviet Union. And as can be seen now obviously the politicians didn't follow the will of the people. From what I heard from my parents people didn't liked the socialist government, but they didn't want to split the country either.
Also the split of the country is easily explainable by Yeltsin's ambition of power. In Soviet Union he was the president of RSFSR, one of many republics of Soviet Union. After he became the president of his own independent country. So much for a person who constantly spoke about democracy considering that 73% of his people voted in favor of preservation of Soviet Union.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday September 01 2022, @11:41AM
(Score: 2) by Opportunist on Monday September 05 2022, @05:44AM
Well, for example the "split the country" narrative. What you call "splitting the country" was more along the lines of nations the Soviet Union raided and occupied breaking away and becoming independent again.
(Score: 3, Informative) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday August 31 2022, @10:48AM (7 children)
40 years of economic stagnation and backsliding didn't help.
My personal experience of the USSR only ran as deep as Berlin. I can tell you for a fact: the people between Hamburg and Berlin were not sad to see the USSR collapse. Not in 1989, not in 1990, not today.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 3, Troll) by unauthorized on Wednesday August 31 2022, @11:42AM (5 children)
The USSR's economic stagnation is largely a myth. Measured in objective standards of human development or the real economy such as access to healthcare, infant mortality, education, energy usage, real income and industrial output it was growing at a very healthy rate through the entire cold war period.
(Score: 4, Informative) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday August 31 2022, @01:59PM (2 children)
>The USSR's economic stagnation is largely a myth.
The myth was starkly visible on the B5 from Hamburg to Berlin - consider a U.S. equivalent traveling from Norfolk VA to Washington DC.
The road was a single track of cobblestones laid down long before WWI with just enough dirt on the side for oncoming traffic to get by, and that likely only turned to dirt from traffic after the collapse. Sparse buildings, sparse population. It had a rural, farm oriented look except very few fields were engaged in the production of anything. In a week of riding my bike through the countryside I saw one sad pony, no horses, maybe three cows. Stores? Stores were absolutely stripped of goods, not just missing toilet paper or baby formula, we're talking 100% empty shelves, maybe some really low quality sausage or the occasional loaf of bread on the front counter, if you're lucky - and some places had a homespun lemonade operation going on recycled bottles, but lemons were still rare so the bottles were usually all empty. Cars? Trabis are legendary, but few people had them.
You might debate whether it's a preferable way of life, but there's no debate about the relative levels of economic activity on either side of the wall.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 2) by unauthorized on Wednesday August 31 2022, @11:37PM (1 child)
The GDR was not part of the USSR, it had it's own government and the ability to engineer it's own economic crisis. If Moscow had a say in the matter, they wouldn't have allowed the GDR, Romania or Yugoslavia to borrow from the west.
(Score: 3, Touché) by JoeMerchant on Thursday September 01 2022, @01:06AM
Well, I can say this: in the summer of 1990 90% of the Germans on the West side of the wall spoke at least some English, while on the East side you'd be lucky to get 3 words of English from the Germans living there but they did speak Russian just about as well as the Westerners did English. The residents of the DDR certainly desired travel within and commerce with West Germany, the man I stayed with the first night just a few km from the border had a collection of reel-to-reel tapes he had made of Western radio, but who denied them this? The DDR government independently decided that they should not cross the border?
It's too soon to spin false histories of such fantastic proportion, if you're a true Russian troll - you're in a very high effort, low yield forum here - I suspect less than 100 people might even glance at your last post, and around here at least 90 of them will instantly recognize it for what it is.
If, on the other hand, you're just playing a Russian troll - very entertaining, like Bob Hope in a dress.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday September 01 2022, @02:59AM
It'd shine compared to Medieval Europe, sure. But that's not who they were competing with. Most of those measures were heavily manipulated and it showed when things fell apart. Consider the last two in particular: real income and industrial output. The size of income is far less valuable than what you can buy with it and the USSR economy was legendary in its inability to provide for its citizens. Similarly, industrial output got worse for decades. Sure, they could keep up for a while with the military arms race, but almost completely missed the computer revolution, for a glaring example.
(Score: 2) by Thexalon on Thursday September 01 2022, @03:39AM
No it wasn't. The productivity was steadily becoming more fictional, which made it look good on paper but didn't actually solve problems.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Thexalon on Wednesday August 31 2022, @11:53AM
A college buddy of mine was in Moscow as the kid of US foreign service officers when this all went down. Seeing his parents running around in flak jackets preparing to defend their post was I'm sure memorable and traumatizing.
But really, the thing that busted the USSR was that the ideals had been exposed as hollow lies a long time ago, and the tanks and secret police could only do so much to stifle the grumblings of dissent. By the time Gorbo took over, nobody really believed anybody in alleged-authority about anything, nor should they have. Governments only function if they have enough people who are willingly supportive of them, and by 1990 the Soviets definitely didn't.
What made things the way they are now had a lot to do with who was in a position to take over when the dust settled. That's always a problem with revolutions. For example, if the entire US government collapsed overnight, and there was suddenly no police force and no dollars that mattered, who would end up in charge of your area in a month or so? It of course depends on where you are, but the likely answers are either traitorous underlings of the former government, drug cartels, multinational corporations who can hire soldiers with foreign currency that's actually worth something, and semi-organized violent groups like the Klan. None of whom are really who you want to be in charge of your life.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 4, Informative) by inertnet on Wednesday August 31 2022, @01:29PM
Gorbachev will be remembered for bringing freedom to millions of people. Unlike the current ruler, who is sending millions on the run and many thousands to their death. Putin will for ever be remembered as one of the most evil dictators of this century, but apparently that's unimportant to him.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by legont on Wednesday August 31 2022, @11:52PM (3 children)
I am reading Russian blogs and forums - mostly IT - and I can't translate or even express how much hatred Gorbachev gets. They say that Hell is on maintenance upgrade today to introduce new treatments. That Devil was afraid to pick up his soul until he upgraded infrastructure.
They also celebrate that 3 out of 6 people who signed the end of the USSR deal are dead this year as well and that only one - Fokin - is left to go. The irony is he is Russian Ukrainian and was kicked out by Zelensky back in 2020 for treason or something.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday September 01 2022, @04:15AM (2 children)
Sounds like they're pretty fucking clueless. Gorbachev's bad luck was being the one to flush the toilet. USSR was failing - the only real question was how much of the world was going to fail with it. Gorbachev made it remarkably bloodless.
Now, they got their strong man back, and he's gotten them into Ukraine. Fools never learn, I guess.
(Score: 2) by legont on Thursday September 01 2022, @04:29AM (1 child)
I highly recommend you to read this book. Perhaps, you will change your mind. P.S. Note the dates
https://www.amazon.com/Coming-Soviet-Crash-Gorbachevs-Desperate/dp/002928581X [amazon.com]
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday September 01 2022, @10:52AM