Arthur T Knackerbracket has processed the following story:
A recent study has found an association between the legalization of marijuana and an increased occurrence of car accidents.
According to a recent study published in the Journal of Studies on Alcohol and Drugs, states that legalized recreational marijuana had an increase in traffic crashes and deaths.
“The legalization of marijuana doesn’t come without a cost,” says lead researcher Charles M. Farmer, Ph.D., of the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety in Ruckersville, Va.
After legalization and the launch of retail sales, there was a 5.8% rise in the incidence of traffic collision injuries and a 4.1% increase in the rate of fatal crashes, according to Farmer and colleagues’ analysis of five states that permit people age 21 and older to consume marijuana recreationally. In a comparative group of states without marijuana legalization, the researchers did not see any rise during the same period.
Overall, the first increase in the injury crash rate occurred after legalization but before retail sales began. Injury rates from car accidents increased 6.5% following legalization, however, they marginally declined (-0.7%) after retail sales started. However, fatal accident rates climbed both after legalization (+2.3%) and after retail sales were legalized (+1.8%).
“Legalization removes the stigma of marijuana use, while the onset of retail sales merely increases access,” says Farmer. “But access to marijuana isn’t difficult, even in places without retail sales. Users who previously avoided driving high may feel that it’s okay after legalization.”
The sharper relationship between marijuana legalization and traffic crash injuries, rather than fatalities, may be due to how some drivers compensate when impaired by marijuana. Often, drivers under the influence of marijuana slow down and maintain a larger distance between themselves and other vehicles. Impaired but at lower speeds, drivers may not be able to avoid a crash, but the crashes that occur may be less likely to be deadly.
According to the authors, earlier studies involving driving simulators have shown marijuana use to affect reaction time, road tracking, lane keeping and attention. However, Farmer notes that the current study is correlational, and increased marijuana use itself is likely not the sole cause of the increases seen.
“Studies looking for a direct causal link between marijuana use and crash risk have been inconclusive,” he says. “Unlike alcohol, there is no good objective measure of just how impaired a marijuana user has become. Until we can accurately measure marijuana impairment, we won’t be able to link it to crash risk.”
[...] Honestly, it boggles my mind how long thc remains detectable in bloodwork. Long after the high has worn off. I think that makes it nearly impossible to test for thc like bac and have it carry much weight. It’s not all that different of a problem than some prescription pills, though, it’s hard to pinpoint exactly when somebody is high legally. Regardless, enforcing weed possession laws is a drain on law enforcement resources and I don’t see this as a reason to oppose either decriminalization or legalization, if somebody wants to get drunk or high and has poor enough judgement to drive impaired and commit DUI I doubt they’re going to be too concerned with whether the substance is legal or not as they’re already committing a crime.
Reference: "Changes in Traffic Crash Rates After Legalization of Marijuana: Results by Crash Severity" by Charles M. Farmer, Ph.D., Samuel S. Monfort, Ph.D. and Amber N. Woods, Ph.D., 19 July 2022, Journal of Studies on Alcohol and Drugs.
DOI: 10.15288/jsad.2022.83.494
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 03 2022, @01:31AM (11 children)
They only looked at usage and outcome, not whether or not the drivers were using. Obviously it would be difficult to get such data due to HIPAA and such. There's a wide range of outcomes from increase to decrease. I don't think you can draw too much from this study, and they seem to acknowledge that in their conclusion.
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 03 2022, @01:47PM
I read in Conservative Weekly that the dope turns men gay. There's a 4.8% increase in homosexuals.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by JoeMerchant on Saturday September 03 2022, @03:05PM (9 children)
Did they do differential analysis between the states that legalized and didn't, or did they just call the post-pandemic increase in traffic fatalities "co-incident with the legalization of demon-weed"?
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 3, Informative) by Reziac on Sunday September 04 2022, @03:17AM (8 children)
After Colorado legalized, I happened to look up their stats. This was Before Covid.
Per what I found -- 30% increase in total traffic accidents. Mostly fender-benders, but still, a damn lot.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 04 2022, @04:00AM (1 child)
Seems like a smoking gun, but anecdotally my sister (who lives near Denver) told me that since Colorado lead the way, a lot of people flooded in for weed jobs and didn't get them. It might be less about what happens when you legalize weed in general, and more about a one-off of bringing in a bunch of disappointed cannabis business hopefuls who might end up living in the cars as well as smoking in them.
Even if it's a general effect, it might be transient. ie, the first few years of legal weed could be bad until people learn. After the initial adjustment it could be better, the same, or worse. To reiterate, too early for solid conclusions.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Reziac on Sunday September 04 2022, @02:23PM
This wasn't just an initial effect; it had been ongoing since legalization. Probably with the "don't get caught" effect being gone, more users think it's fine to drive stoned, without considering that they are "under the influence".
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by JoeMerchant on Sunday September 04 2022, @12:29PM (5 children)
That's definitely a data point worthy of deeper investigation.
If that kind of data were pointing at the release of oxycodone on the market or something like that, it would definitely require more evidence before even beginning to consider possible restrictions on the distribution of such a popular, beneficial (and profitable) pharmaceutical. /s but true.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 3, Informative) by Reziac on Sunday September 04 2022, @02:38PM (4 children)
There's also the problem that it ain't your daddy's weed anymore. What's grown today is 4x to 20x stronger, with concomitantly greater effects. (One of the pro-weed sites has a Handy Chart of the typical analysis through the years, and it concurs.)
One of which is triggering latent psychosis. I know a guy who is EMT-adjacent in Portland, and he has endless horror stories about that. In particular teens who suddenly get the DTs and think they have worms under their skin, or feel like aliens are attached to them, and start cutting off body parts (fingers, ears, penis, etc.)
https://www.verywellmind.com/can-marijuana-cause-psychosis-5200547 [verywellmind.com]
https://www.psychiatrictimes.com/view/cannabis-induced-psychosis-review [psychiatrictimes.com]
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by JoeMerchant on Sunday September 04 2022, @05:55PM (3 children)
Bad for sure, but on the legal side of things: I have never personally known anyone who died from alcohol poisoning, but I did know three who were hospitalized for it in college (separate incidents, differing circumstances, same method of poisoning: drank too much too strong too fast)... And then you have the "hold your wee for a wii" contestant who died of literal water overdose... so, yeah, know when to say when.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Sunday September 04 2022, @07:35PM (2 children)
Yep, sometimes once is one too many.
Fact is people being people a lot are gonna use something, and better if it's tolerably safe and any legal consequences commensurate with harm to others, but that still doesn't make it a general good.
[I don't use, because 1) I grok biochemistry, and 2) the very idea gives my inner control freak hives.]
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 04 2022, @07:54PM (1 child)
So, I've never smoked tobacco except second hand and that at a distance. In the cannabis department, to quote Romancing The Stone: "sure, I went to college" and determined that water-bong is the only acceptable form of smoking as far as I am concerned... also determined that while cannabis has its effects, and can be quite strong, it's not really doing much of anything for me that I can't do myself through a sort of directed consciousness. Want to think like you're stoned? Think like you're stoned, smoke isn't really required. Also, for the most part, I am able to consciously chill-out just by taking a step back and telling myself that chilling out would be a good thing to do right now.
In a radical backflip off the straight and narrow cliff into biochemistry water that looks safe, but you have no way of knowing for sure, I did do a few hits of acid in college too, before the cannabis, and they did alter my consciousness permanently, giving me more ability to chill out by choice and more ability to recognize a lot more situations where chilling out is the preferable choice.
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Tuesday September 06 2022, @01:42AM
Interesting... but what if the permanently altered consciousness was something not so beneficial? I remember incidents from the 1960s nd 70s where someone never came out of their acid trip. Trouble is you can't know in advance if you'll be lucky (and I'm glad it worked out for you) or very very unlucky.
Tho I'd guess that akin to what can happen with pot, it's a trigger rather than a cause.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Kell on Saturday September 03 2022, @01:47AM (4 children)
Does this surprise anyone? If so, compare with the cost in lives of alcohol usage.
Scientists ask questions. Engineers solve problems.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by lentilla on Saturday September 03 2022, @02:14AM (3 children)
Actually, yes. Stoned people tend to be extremely cautious, and driving a car "is like, way hard, man...". In short, they prefer to stay on the couch and zone out. If they do get in a car they are doing twenty in a fifty zone. Inebriated people; on the other hand; think they are invincible, get behind the wheel and drive badly, furiously.
So yes, this data does surprise me. I would be interested to see further studies done to see if the correlation is confirmed. Anecdotally, I have noticed much worsened driver behavior recently (since COVID) which I ascribe to people just not being very happy (and we don't have legal marijuana where I live). So I'll be interested to see what the longer-term effects are.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Immerman on Saturday September 03 2022, @05:10AM (1 child)
I don't know - I can think of a few explanations.
Being high also tends to make you more prone to getting highly distracted (Whoa, that's so cool... wait, what was I doing?)
And then there's the drunk, stoned drivers - cannabis seems to amplify the effects of alcohol, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if there were a lot of people emboldened to have a few puffs at the bar along with their usual drinks, and end up way more F'ed up than they're accustomed to.
What I'll be really interested to see is if the trend continues long-term, or if it's due mostly to a surge of new users who haven't learned their limits yet.
(Score: 2) by legont on Saturday September 03 2022, @05:35AM
Yes, distraction is likely the answer. One can even look at speedometer and keep looking at it for a long long time...
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 5, Funny) by Opportunist on Saturday September 03 2022, @09:00AM
So the accidents are due to irate drunks that overtake the creeping stoners in hazardous ways?
(Score: 5, Funny) by ilPapa on Saturday September 03 2022, @03:02AM (3 children)
When I was a young man and did such things, it wasn't the smoking of marijuana that caused me problems with driving.
It was rolling a joint while cruising down Lake Shore Drive while trying not to spill my beer.
You are still welcome on my lawn.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Opportunist on Saturday September 03 2022, @09:03AM (1 child)
Don't drink and drive.
Only take a sip from your vodka when stopped at a red light.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by JoeMerchant on Saturday September 03 2022, @03:09PM
The traditional around here: "Don't drink and drive, you might hit a bump and spill your drink."
1982: Our high school wrestling coach was driving away from a bar, with his wife as a passenger, and an alcoholic drink in a glass in his hand, (of course neither was wearing a seatbelt, not that that mattered much in this instance) and apparently he didn't see the 50mph cross traffic that he pulled out right in front of. Rumor has it that the broken glass went through his tongue. Stone cold facts are: he died on the scene, his wife died in the ambulance, others involved were treated and released at the scene.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Phoenix666 on Saturday September 03 2022, @06:22PM
I can imagine that was especially tough at that wicked S-curve near the Drake Hotel or at that spot on the South Side where you can catch air if you go 10mph over the speed limit. You can almost picture the bud caroming all over the inside of the car.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by cykros on Saturday September 03 2022, @05:28AM (9 children)
I'm not quite sure I like where this article is coming from, even if it is factual enough in its content.
A few more things that would reduce the societal cost, as long as we're okay with just reducing freedoms for people who cannot be presumed to be directly causing harm to others:
Banning motorcycles would invariably lead to fewer deaths on the road.
Requiring people to stay indoors after dark would result in far fewer hospitalizations and undoubtedly reduce some deaths from accidents arising from reduced visibility.
Hiking in the backcountry results in innumerable injuries every year, never mind a good handful of deaths. Banning backpacking would help lessen the societal cost.
etc.
By all means, look at what happens and tabulate it, but let's maintain some perspective about how laws should work in a free society, and recognize that there are costs to a free society, but that attempting to pinch pennies, so to speak, can very quickly be turned around onto something or other that most anyone will baulk at sooner or later.
Besides, driving under the influence is already illegal. Law enforcement being too hard has never been a good excuse for banning anything other than actions which result in direct harm to other members of society.
(Score: 2) by legont on Saturday September 03 2022, @05:39AM (8 children)
Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think there is a reliable - legally speaking - way to check if one is under cannabis influence. That's because the influence disappears in under 12 hours while a blood test shows use it for a month.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 03 2022, @06:10AM (7 children)
Cops around here use the drool test. Put a slice of pizza under the suspect's nose and you'll know right away.
(Score: 2) by maxwell demon on Saturday September 03 2022, @06:35AM (5 children)
I guess if you're on a calorie-free diet, you shouldn't drive around there. :-)
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 2) by RamiK on Saturday September 03 2022, @08:13AM (4 children)
If you're on a calorie-free diet, you're being driven to the morgue.
compiling...
(Score: 2) by maxwell demon on Saturday September 03 2022, @08:41AM (3 children)
Only if you do it for too long.
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 2) by RamiK on Saturday September 03 2022, @10:25AM (2 children)
Then it's not a diet. Diets are defined as the regular food intake regime one undertakes to sustain homeostasis. Temporary practices like fasting or eating below/above target expenditure/weight can be elements of a diet but only if they're offset by compensatory intake/expenditure within the diet itself. So, unless your target homeostasis is death, there can be no calorie-free diet.
compiling...
(Score: 2) by maxwell demon on Sunday September 04 2022, @06:57AM (1 child)
Not? Well, then probably the dictionary had an error.
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 2) by RamiK on Sunday September 04 2022, @06:36PM
( https://www.britannica.com/dictionary/diet [britannica.com] )
So, since you can't eat zeros in the same way no-money can't be considered an amount of money... But admittedly, it can get a bit philosophical at that point.
compiling...
(Score: 2) by stretch611 on Saturday September 03 2022, @03:08PM
Homer Simpsons drives there just so that he can be pulled over.
He ALWAYS fails the test even when sober and THC-free.
Now with 5 covid vaccine shots/boosters altering my DNA :P
(Score: 5, Insightful) by dltaylor on Saturday September 03 2022, @05:36AM (11 children)
Given the overall increase in multiple homicides, street takeovers, and general mayhem we've been living through in roughly the same time frame as legalization (and, no, marijuana is not known to increase aggression), the report is not only inconclusive, but fraud.
(Score: 2) by driverless on Saturday September 03 2022, @01:15PM (8 children)
It's definitely quite dubious, in particular legal marjiuana could be serving as a proxy for any number of factors. I don't live in the US so don't even know in which states it's legal, let alone what other factors could be at play, but the first thing I'd be looking at is which other factors occur in these states vs. other states.
As an extreme example of this where one factor wasn't even a proxy, some years ago here the youth suicide rate (allegedly) tracked the number of Porsches on the road. No-one ever tried to suggest a connection between the two, it was just coincidence.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by NotSanguine on Saturday September 03 2022, @06:53PM (7 children)
I did not take the dangerous (and highly illegal) step of actually reading TFA, as I'm a sane and responsible human.
I'll preface my more serious remarks by making the assertion that driving while impaired is always a bad idea, regardless of the source of impairment (e.g., alcohol, cannabis, texting, applying make-up, getting a blow job, etc., etc., etc.).
According to the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS) [iihs.org]:
[emphasis added]
I'd note that the IIHS is funded by the insurance industry, and as such, has only a profit motive (in this case, setting premiums in states with legal vs. not legal cannabis) in determining these rates.
Based on the correlational (not causational) data in the study referenced by TFA, some folks will jump to the conclusion that cannabis should *not* be legalized. However, the vast majority of crashes are unrelated solely to cannabis use, and as the IIHS study indicates, cannabis use alone does not increase traffic crashes.
If we are to claim that cannabis should be banned to improve safety, shouldn't we also ban the stuff (alcohol, cell phones, make-up, blow jobs, etc.) that have a much bigger impact on traffic safety?
What's that? No? Why not? Whatever your reasoning, those same reasons can be applied to cannabis.
I'd also note that TFS specifies increases only in percentages and not actual frequency. If we look at all causes of traffic crashes, I'd expect that the use of cannabis alone (i.e., without other contributing factors like alcohol use, etc.) would be negligible in comparison to other factors involved in traffic crashes.
I'll say it again, as I want to make sure this point is clear (as it's the most important one): Drving while impaired by anything, cannabis included, is a very bad idea and no one should do it.
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 2) by driverless on Saturday September 03 2022, @07:21PM
Ah, good point, I'd missed that one.
I have friends who are avid Fox fans and occasionally forward some of their stuff to me. I've gamified the experience by seeing how long it will take me to find the gaping hole in the story (in every case less than a minute, but usually more than 30 seconds because you need to spend a minimum amount of time actually reading the story or watching the video). This seemed like another one of those things that wasn't worth expending much effort on beyond the mental exercise of scanning it to find out why it wasn't worth expending much effort on.
Speaking of Fox, I can imagine their reporting of it:
All of them blue states. Coincidence? I think not!
(Score: 2) by janrinok on Sunday September 04 2022, @04:44AM (1 child)
You mean that those things are entirely legal when driving where you live? They argument isn't that cannabis should be banned, but that driving under the influence of cannabis has risks attached to it, just as each of those other things you mentioned do, And, where I live, they are each illegal in their own right.
If you are driving you should be concentrating on that and nothing else.
(Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Sunday September 04 2022, @07:04AM
I guess I didn't elucidate my point clearly enough. I'll try to do so now.
1. Driving while impaired by anything increases the risk of traffic crashes;
2. While under the effects of cannabis use, one is impaired;
3. An array of other stuff makes one impaired as well;
4. From a holistic standpoint, that other stuff (and especially alcohol) is much more frequently implicated in impaired driving and crashes;
5. There are some (many?) who use the potential for impaired driving by cannabis users as a cudgel to rail against cannabis legalization;
[I think this is where I was unclear]
6. Cannabis, like other substances/activities that cause impairment aren't and shouldn't be socially or legally acceptable. Full stop;
7. But (6) isn't and shouldn't be a valid reason to keep cannabis illegal for use when not driving or performing activites that could be harmful to oneself or others while impaired.
8. The data presented by the link I provided (not the study referenced in TFS), indicate that cannabis use alone (vs. cannabis and alcohol and/or other substances/activities) strongly suggests that cannabis use by itself does not increase the risk of traffic crashes;
9. Despite the data referenced in (8), I maintain (as you also assert) that driving while impaired is dangerous and should not (and in fact, is not, where I live and just about everywhere else) be socially or legally condoned.
I know I repeated myself a bit here, but I wanted to make sure I clearly elucidated my point. Which, among other things, is that I wholeheartedly agree with your assertion that "If you are driving you should be concentrating on that and nothing else."
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 04 2022, @09:31AM (1 child)
Australia now has cameras to capture the record of and fine people who are wearing their seatbelt incorrectly, holding a phone, getting a blow job, drinking alcohol, or anything else authorities think you should not be doing while driving.
(Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Sunday September 04 2022, @10:29PM
I think you misunderstand my point. Some folks make the argument that auto crashes are the reason cannabis should not be legal under any circumstances, not that it should just be illegal (as it already is, and legalization won't change that) to drive under the influence of cannabis.
My point was that if one makes such and argument, and other stuff (like alcohol, texting, etc.) that impairs/distracts drivers increases the likelihood/risk of crashes even more, why aren't they also arguing that those things should be banned in all circumstances as well?
As to what the Australian government does or doesn't do, since its government is democratic (small 'd') at all levels, responsibility for over-regulation lies with those who elected the representatives who put those regulations in place.
That's how, at least as I understand it, government works in Australia. If they've abandoned elections and become an autocratic dictatorship since last I checked, that's a different issue. But I don't think that's the case, is it?
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 2) by maxwell demon on Sunday September 04 2022, @08:04PM (1 child)
It was an increase of the total traffic crashes, though. So we do not know if the crashes were due to (or even related to) cannabis, but we do know that the increase was significant.
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Sunday September 04 2022, @10:43PM
That makes sense. What doesn't make sense (to me at least) is attributing (based on the title of the study cited in TFS) such increases specifically to cannabis legalization without evidence of cannabis as a causal factor.
That said, I'm sure more folks will drive under the influence of cannabis if it's legal. However, other research (like the IIHS study I linked) casts significant doubt on cannabis use alone as the cause of such an increase. Note the title of my comment: "Re: Correleation != Causality" which I didn't create (just replied to).
I keep saying this, because it's the really important part: driving while impaired by anything increases the risk of crashes and should be avoided.
What's more, impaired/distracted driving (from any cause) should be (and, AFAIK is, pretty much everywhere) legally and socially unacceptable.
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Saturday September 03 2022, @03:13PM
Everything anti-MJ published since LBJ is highly suspect of being fraudulent, twisted, outright fabricated.
If they wanted credibility, they've gone about it all wrong. Of course, they're trying to turn society into a bunch of followers who don't question authority, and apparently MJ is a "gateway drug" to things like LSD, peyote, shrooms, etc. which are believed to lead to an increase in questioning of authority...
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 0) by Farquenshar on Sunday September 04 2022, @08:16AM
And, conservative paranoid about the country going to hell, the massacre in Bowling Green, the mass-shootings everywhere, Sweden, and American carnage? Chill, man, you're harshing my high.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by SomeGuy on Saturday September 03 2022, @12:22PM (2 children)
There is also an increasing amount of distraction with devices like cell/smart phones and worse than useless in-car touch screen controls. Despite what idiots texting you alerts might think, it won't kill you to ignore your precious cell phone for 30 minutes while driving somewhere. I'd even argue that "hands free" shit is too distracting. It's one thing to chat with someone else in a car while driving, but something completely different when you are expected to take business calls while driving. Of course, you won't see many articles about that when half of the advertisements are for cell phones.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 03 2022, @02:54PM (1 child)
B..but drugs are bad?! Put teh bad guys in jail. Mandatory sentences. Let's get tough, it's never been tried before.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Saturday September 03 2022, @03:16PM
Stressed out marketing exec on a multi-national conference call late for his flight rear-ends a stoner on his way to get some Chips Ahoy from the corner market... cop arrives and judges the scene: whose fault is it? No, this isn't in southern California.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 03 2022, @02:50PM
(Score: 1) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 03 2022, @03:38PM
Roadside drink and drug testing may have something to do with this.