Consent can mean a lot of things when you're accosted by cops. Law enforcement officers tend to feel it's always voluntary, even when you're sitting in an interrogation room for what the "good cop" refers to as a "friendly chat" meant to "clear everything up."
Whenever a seizure is challenged, if cops didn't have the requisite reasonable suspicion or probable cause to support the stop, they and their lawyers will almost always claim the stop was consensual and the person now suing or trying to suppress evidence was free to go.
[...] The timeline leading the Fourth Amendment violation is pretty clear. There are recordings of the incident, which alone makes it an anomaly. From those recordings and testimony of all involved, the Sixth Circuit reconstructs the late evening welfare check that devolved into (police) violence.
Officers were sent to the home of Mark and Sherrie Campbell following two hangup calls to 911. The deputies did not activate their emergency lights once on the property but aimed their headlights at the front door. Deputy Fox knocked on the front door but did not state he was a law enforcement officer. Mark Campbell answered and asked the deputy through the closed door if the officer had a gun. This conversation (such as it were...) continued for a few more seconds.
Mark Campbell then told the deputy he "had one too" (referring to gun possession). He then opened the door. Deputy Fox then turned back to the door and fired two shots through it. The other deputy (Christopher Austin) tripped and fell to the ground. Deputy Fox asked if Deputy Austin was OK and then turned and fired six more shots through the front door. All of this occurred within 30 seconds of the officers' arrival.
While there are recordings, they don't clear anything up. The deputies saw something that could have been a gun, which possibly excuses the violent response.
The parties dispute what the officers saw when Mark began to open the door, and the video footage does not resolve the dispute. Mark says he may have had a cell phone in his hand, but not a gun. Both officers contend they thought Mark had a gun. However, there is evidence that on the evening of the incident, the officers did not know what, if anything, Mark was holding.
The evidence is this: no firearm was found on the property after the officers entered the residence. Also of note: while Mark Campbell was charged with two counts of aggravated assault on the officers, those charges were dismissed.
The couple sued, alleging Fourth Amendment violations stemming from the incident. And they won at the lower level, prompting the government's appeal, much of which hinged on the government's assertion that the whole thing was a consensual interaction that was only complicated by Mark's statements and actions.
Oh hell no, says the Sixth Circuit, summing up the whole debacle in one devastating sentence. Whatever might apply to Mark and his "I've got one too" statement alluding to a gun did not apply to the other person in the house, who was definitely held against her will by law enforcement until the situation was resolved.
In view of all the circumstances here, a reasonable person would not believe that he or she was free to leave a house while an officer repeatedly fired at the front door.
It's sad that it takes a court — and not just the first level of the judicial system — to state the obvious. No person would feel free to leave when several officers are present in the front yard. And they definitely would not feel free to end the interaction after an officer fires eight bullets through their front door.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 10 2022, @07:37AM (4 children)
Good luck
(Score: 4, Touché) by janrinok on Saturday September 10 2022, @07:54AM (3 children)
Perhaps you should read the whole thing then - he won in court.
(Score: 3, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 10 2022, @07:24PM (2 children)
He had to waste time in court. That time cannot be repaid.. and it's an anecdotal case, the guy was lucky, to have even survived. Most people don't win against the cops, especially when they're shot dead. The system is naturally biased in their favor, physically and economically
(Score: 1, Flamebait) by mcgrew on Sunday September 11 2022, @06:35PM (1 child)
You're as obtuse as the cops, are you in law enforcement, by chance? HE WON. He was paid for his time, just as a McDonald's worker is paid for her time at work, and FAR less handsomely. How fucking stupid can you be? Who ties your shoes for you?
Carbon, The only element in the known universe to ever gain sentience
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 11 2022, @06:47PM
People work at McDonald's by choice, not because the cops are shooting at them.
And his case is purely anecdotal, a rarity, not statistically significant, as the vast majority of cases is based on your word against theirs, need more cameras watching the cops to resolve that problem. I believe you are the one being obtuse here
(Score: 5, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 10 2022, @08:50AM (1 child)
If firemen were like US cops they'd be spraying water at fires from afar not daring to risk their lives to save others.
I'm a coward too but that's why I don't get a job as a cop and pretend to be a cop.
You're doing it very wrong when your cops are more trigger happy than a US soldier (US soldiers aren't famous for being unwilling to shoot):
https://www.npr.org/2016/12/08/504718239/military-trained-police-may-be-slower-to-shoot-but-that-got-this-vet-fired [npr.org]
See also: https://youtu.be/xxvINcEdLRE?t=47 [youtu.be]
(Score: 5, Insightful) by helel on Saturday September 10 2022, @09:31AM
The reason there's no good cops is nothing gets you fired from the force faster. Any officer that reports misconduct, refuses to engage in racial profiling, or even simply refuses to commit murder, is done. Then again, what do we expect from a profession where the standard punishment for killing someone is paid vacation?
Republican Patriotism [youtube.com]
(Score: 5, Funny) by Opportunist on Saturday September 10 2022, @10:12AM (2 children)
It's kinda scary when the old jokes from Soviet times start becoming relevant to your life...
The bear is wandering through the forest, suddenly the rabbit dashes by. "Quick! Run! Run! They're castrating the camels!"
The bear looks at the rabbit. "Why're you running, you're not a camel?"
The rabbit, before running past, "You try to convince them when your balls are getting cut off!"
(alternative: "Yeah, good luck getting your balls back in appeal.")
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 10 2022, @03:08PM (1 child)
Funny how you are so up on old soviet jokes, eh comrade.
(Score: 4, Informative) by Opportunist on Sunday September 11 2022, @03:51AM
I love them. Oppressive regimes create the best jokes, simply because when you're powerless to actually fight a fucked up system, your last resort is to make fun of it.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by EJ on Saturday September 10 2022, @10:40AM (18 children)
If a cop is not 100% certain that the person is AIMING A GUN DIRECTLY AT THEM, then the cop should be charged with felony assault and attempted murder if they fire at that person. Full stop.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by janrinok on Saturday September 10 2022, @10:50AM (11 children)
Firing 8 un-aimed shots (closed door!) should be enough to have anyone charged with something significant. The police did not know who else was present inside the house. Guests? Children?
(Score: 2, Funny) by Runaway1956 on Saturday September 10 2022, @11:15AM (1 child)
The proper response in a hostage situation is a predator drone!
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Monday September 12 2022, @01:23AM
With double tap, just to be sure.
Even more so as their two hangup calls to 911 were terrorizing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Opportunist on Saturday September 10 2022, @01:18PM (6 children)
Let's just call it collateral damage and be done with this. It's a good enough excuse for gunning down brown people in other countries, it should be good enough for the domestic ones.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by sgleysti on Saturday September 10 2022, @04:31PM (1 child)
An anon posted this interesting article on a cop who used to be military and didn't shoot due to his military training: https://www.npr.org/2016/12/08/504718239/military-trained-police-may-be-slower-to-shoot-but-that-got-this-vet-fired [npr.org]. A relevant quote from the article:
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 10 2022, @06:26PM
A lot of times it's just a minority who would fight you. The majority will go "Meet the new boss, about the same as the old boss, life is about as shit before and after, whatever".
So do things right and you might succeed but if you start bombing weddings and funerals don't be surprised if the number of people who'd fight you go up instead of go down.
(Score: 2) by mcgrew on Sunday September 11 2022, @06:39PM (3 children)
We're not talking about WAR, we're talking about LAW ENFORCEMENT. If you don't know the difference, please don't apply for a job as a cop.
Carbon, The only element in the known universe to ever gain sentience
(Score: 2) by legont on Sunday September 11 2022, @11:44PM
Yeah, after all chemical weapons are prohibited at a battle field while perfectly fine in law enforcement.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 1) by Runaway1956 on Monday September 12 2022, @12:23AM
Seriously, it can be hard to tell the difference. From my truck driving days, there's a little restaurant not far from the truck stop on south side of Memphis that had truck parking. I stopped one evening, had dinner, and came back out to the truck. I knew there was a low-income housing project more-or-less adjacent, but had never really looked. Well - this night I looked. Cop cars in and out, in and out, cops doing what appeared to be stop-and-frisk, cruisers slowing down to inspect every pedestrian. This wasn't police work, this was an occupation. I had been sorta planning to bed down in the parking lot for the night, but after watching an hour of this nonsense, I decided that driving over my ten hours was justified, and headed on down the road into Mississippi.
You can find similar atmospheres in most major cities. It isn't always low-income housing, but it often is. And, it seems to almost always be Black neighborhoods, rarely Hispanic. I've never witnessed the same in a white neighborhood, whether it be low-income or not. To be sure, if something bad happens in a white neighborhood, the cops will swarm, but I've never seen the cops patrolling a white neighborhood like that.
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 2) by Opportunist on Tuesday September 13 2022, @04:36PM
I'm fairly sure the civilians don't really see the difference whether they're pointlessly gunned down in a war or in a police action. The bullet has pretty much the same effect...
(Score: 3, Interesting) by RS3 on Saturday September 10 2022, @08:22PM (1 child)
I've been aware of this whole topic most of my life. What I'm trying to understand is why/how it got so bad, and why nobody seems to have noticed and done something about it long ago. Maybe it's the "seeing is believing" factor, and the proliferation of cameras (cell phones, body cams, surveillance, etc.) have finally brought it to enough people's attention. But again, "shoot first, ask questions later" has been a (very wrong) thing for a very long time.
Everyone be clear: much of the blame for this mess is due to the "drug wars" that have been going on for more than 50 years. As the cops escalate their offensive, so have the drug dealers, smugglers, cartels, etc., so then the cops even more. Much like USA's alcohol prohibition of the 1920s.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Saturday September 10 2022, @09:00PM
What I'm trying to understand is why/how it got so bad,
You nailed it with the cellphones, and the proliferation of video being posted to Youtube and other places.
Like yourself, I've been aware that there are indeed "good cops" and "bad cops" all my life. The problem was, there were always two sides to every story: the cop's side, and the suspect's side. In court, it is presumed that the cops are honest, and the opposite presumption is that the suspect is a bad guy with reason to lie. How in hell are we, the onlookers, supposed to know who is lying? We may or we may not trust the cop, but we have no real reason to trust the suspect.
The videos made available online help to determine when the cops are honest, and when they are just degenerate assholes. The killing of Tamir Rice as one of the first videos that helped me to understand just what happened. That guy killed in WalMart for having picked up a stupid plastic toy gun - I think his name was Campbell? Again and again, we see these things - and most of the time, it's a young black male who is killed.
We all know (or should know) that bullies are going to find police work attractive. Genuine racists are going to be attracted to that kind of work. Ditto gay bashers, and mysogenists. People with hate in their hearts want to have positions of power, so they can mete out their own version of "justice".
Obviously, we need to do a helluva lot more to ensure those kinds of people DO NOT get police jobs.
We also need nationwide mandates that police body cams operate full time. If a cop is on duty for 72 hours, his cam should capture 72 hours of video, including bathroom breaks. To hell with privacy.
We need to break police unions.
We need to end the whole "internal review" process, and give that task to civilians in the community.
And, we need to change that entire court system that presumes a cop is honest.
Finally, more people need to understand that it is their RIGHT to take video of police interactions. If disinterested citizens record every cop they see, more misconduct will be captured.
See something? Say something. I often disagree with individual cases, because I see a criminal, engaged in criminal conduct, being apprehended, sometimes violently. But, as a rule, the cop's version of things MUST be questioned, and verified. Far too many unarmed people have been shot dead simply because the cop involved was some kind of candy ass whose only solution to any problem is to shoot.
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Saturday September 10 2022, @11:30AM
Easy to take an abolutist view on any subject. But, you've just eliminated the possibility of taking out the nutcase shooting randomly into a crowd. You'll have to add some nuance to your position if you hope to have it adopted.
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Opportunist on Saturday September 10 2022, @01:16PM (2 children)
"Yes, your honor, I was quite certain the person that is now dead and cannot testify anymore was aiming that gun directly at me. My prints on that gun? Oh, they probably got there when I was collecting the evidence, I am sincerely sorry for that blunder."
Just make sure that you're the only one who can tell a story and you're fine. The history books are full of examples for that.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by sgleysti on Saturday September 10 2022, @04:35PM (1 child)
Body cams are such a good idea.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Opportunist on Saturday September 10 2022, @07:20PM
"Oh yeah, that bloody thing never works when it is really important, I just noticed that when I got back to the station..."
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 10 2022, @06:44PM (1 child)
By the way swatting is only dangerous and a thing if the cops are bad.
Think about it. If the cops weren't that terrible, and someone tricks a swat team to go some place and... Nobody gets hurt!
If the cops weren't terrible I could call the cops on you and they won't kick your door down and kill you. I'm the one who'd get in trouble if they figure out its me (and I'm dumb enough to be in the same country).
But if the cops are full of cowards and murderers then stuff like this happens regularly: https://youtu.be/xxvINcEdLRE?t=47 [youtu.be]
See also: https://youtu.be/OflGwyWcft8 [youtu.be]
(If the cops were so afraid of that guy they wouldn't be asking such a dangerous person to move towards them, or to move at all. But guess they felt like playing a fatal version of "Simon says"...).
Way too many: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=cops+shooting+unarmed [youtube.com]
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 11 2022, @02:05AM
Correction. Swatting is dangerous, no matter how good, or how bad the cops are. Mistakes happen. When a bunch of people are armed, and one of them makes a mistake, it can be deadly. With good cops, mistakes are less likely. With bad cops, mistakes are more likely to happen, and those mistakes are also more likely to be covered up. But, you can't excuse a fraudulent 911 call, in any way, shape, or form. If you make that call, I truly hope that you live long, and in genuine agony, confined to a wheelchair or a bed, with nurse Annie Wilkes to care for you. You'll deserve it.