Advanced Driver Assistance: Still Not Seeing Motorcycles - Adventure Rider:
Here we all are, hurtling into the future. Electric cars, electric motorcycles, alternative fuels, smart devices, the Internet of Things. It's all around us and creeping into our daily lives.
Soon the future will include self-driving cars. But how distant is that future? That's the big hairy question, right there. The more computers and smart devices make their way into the vehicles we drive and share the roads with, the more the drivers in them stop paying attention to the task at hand. And the AI systems in cars are not good enough for the confidence too many drivers put in them.
That, at least, is a possible conclusion reached by the authors and researchers from the Connected Motorcycle Consortium. They just released a white paper on "Powered Two Wheeler Conspicuity." We all know becoming more conspicuous in traffic can help us avoid collisions. But the question is becoming, "more conspicuous to whom?" Or, more specifically, to what?
You've probably been hearing about "self-driving" Teslas that have recently plowed into motorcycles, killing the riders. That's definitely a problem, and FortNine released a video (below) recently telling us all about that particular problem. He makes a lot of excellent points as well as a few scary ones. [...]
Let's take Teslas out of the equation. Manufacturers have fitted adaptive cruise control and lane assist on a lot of modern cars. Though it has seen active use for some time, adaptive cruise control still, has a lot of issues "seeing" motorcycles. This is a much bigger problem, because so many more cars are outfitted with these systems than a more "Tesla-like" "auto pilot."
[...] Instead of relying on ever-more disconnected drivers on the road to see us and keep us safe, it might be time to modify our motorcycles. Up to this point, we've tried bright colors, and interesting lighting, and sometimes even loud pipes, to make ourselves conspicuous to surrounding traffic. It might be time, instead, to think about playing to the AI as well as the human drivers.
This means that instead of trying to catch the human eye, we need to think about radar deflection, and camera lens reflectivity. Some of us ride motorcycles that have giant, flat panels (think hard ADV luggage) on our bikes. Those are great for visibility by radar and cameras. Those of us who ride naked bikes or motorcycles with soft luggage may instead be nearly invisible to those same systems. Motorcycles in general lack a large, flat surface that's easy for radar to "see."
White paper and FortNine video mentioned in the article.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by bradley13 on Tuesday October 11 2022, @04:52PM (12 children)
Loud pipes? You didn't add those for safety, you added those because you're a jerk. Living in an alpine village, most motorcyclists are not a problem. Then comes the jerk, whose bike echoes for miles up and down the valley.
As for TFA: yes, there have been accidents, but AFAIK relatively few. Seeing motorcycles doesn't seem to be a general problem. Also, note that Tesla is moving to vision-only anyway - making your bike more radar-visible won't help there.
Everyone is somebody else's weirdo.
(Score: 4, Disagree) by mcgrew on Tuesday October 11 2022, @06:11PM (7 children)
Most people don't live in Alpine villages. Most don't even live in a small town. Now, I haven't had a motorcycle for 40 years, but in the city, motorcycles NEED noise because most people aren't any better than driver assistance tech at seeing motorcycles. I have an electrically motorized bicycle now, and feel far less safe than when I rode a motorcycle, just because it's pretty quiet.
Carbon, The only element in the known universe to ever gain sentience
(Score: 3, Interesting) by legont on Wednesday October 12 2022, @12:06AM (4 children)
Exactly. I don't like my bike making loud noise and I wear hearing pugs for it, but I have no choice. When I see a hokey mom trying to make a left turn on me I open the throttle all the way up.
Now, why manufacturers don't install artificial loud devices on electric bikes? Car ones do play artificial engine noise.
Finally, a bike, even a gas one, is way greener than a Tesla. Cities should discriminate cars for bikes.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 12 2022, @02:59AM (1 child)
(Score: 2) by legont on Thursday October 13 2022, @12:37AM
It's not loud enough and it takes way longer to push.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 1) by tbuskey on Wednesday October 12 2022, @04:39PM (1 child)
Loud pipes piss off the public and close trails.
When I ride a dirt bike, I want it quiet.
The public hears all those street bikes with loud pipes all the time.
When I am driving, I only hear those loud bikes when they are in front of me.
The most common motorcycle accident is a car making a left turn into the main road and infringing on the motorcycle's right of way. A loud pipe won't make you any more noticeable because the car won't hear it.
I always assume the car is going to pull out in front of anything that is smaller than a car. Most of what they see are other cars or larger vehicles.
(Score: 2) by legont on Thursday October 13 2022, @12:42AM
Trust me - they hear my loud pipes. I don't just coast - I pull the clutch and get engine to the max.
In the woods - sure one wants to be as quiet as possible and stay away from bicycles
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 1) by weirsbaski on Wednesday October 12 2022, @07:59PM (1 child)
Yes, because when motorcyclists insist on lane-splitting at red lights to weave their way up to the front, they should make sure the drivers they pass go half-deaf at the same time.
(Score: 2) by mcgrew on Saturday October 15 2022, @12:06PM
I've never seen any asshole do that. I did see motorcycles zipping past the 5 mph and slower traffic on the shoulder on my way back home from the total solar eclipse a few years ago. Eight hour trip from Columbia, IL (right across the river from St Louis) to Springfield, IL, 100 miles. If I was on a motorcycle I might have done the same thing, I could have made it in less time on a bicycle. It's in my journals if you're interested.
However, what you describe is actually (and stupidly IMO) legal in some states. I, and bikers I know, would never do something that stupid unless they were even more stupid and riding drunk.
Carbon, The only element in the known universe to ever gain sentience
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Sjolfr on Tuesday October 11 2022, @10:32PM (3 children)
I rode motorcycles in cities and virtually NO ONE sees us. My bike was normal and quiet (Yamaha Vision). Loud pipes save lives. Get on a bike and almost die because some lady doing her makeup, or some dude on his phone, merges right on to you on the highway then we can talk.
Most folks don't see me on my ebicycle either. And, since 1990, most people don't see me in my wheelchair. Got hit in the crosswalk a few years ago because some ass-hat was looking left, while driving forward, in preparation for turning right on a red light that had a sign "no turn on red".
Pay attention when you drive ... it's kinda your job.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by bradley13 on Wednesday October 12 2022, @05:58AM (2 children)
I don't recall ever not seeing a motorcycle on the road.
The few times things got dicey were (imho) the motorcycle's fault. Example: changing lanes in slow moving traffic. There's a hole, I signal, start to move over and - here comes a lane-splitter, moving way faster than the rest of the traffic.
Noise, to attract attention? No. If it's loud enough to alert someone in a car, over all the rest of the traffic noise, you are disturbing everyone in the entire neighborhood. That's just an excuse, to justify those oh-so-macho pipes.
Everyone is somebody else's weirdo.
(Score: 4, Touché) by Damp_Cuttlefish on Wednesday October 12 2022, @09:50AM (1 child)
I hate to be that guy, but you wouldn't recall the times you truly didn't see them.
I fairly regularly have cars pull out on me and drive on without the slightest indication they saw me, and you generally get a very good view of where people are looking at the height my bike sits.
I'm not suggesting you drive like that, but remember they also think they've never missed a bike...
On the other hand, I totally agree that a loud bike is a poor solution to crappy driving. I ride a quiet bike, I use the horn. You need to be a bit more switched on, but it works.
Granted, most bike horns are about as loud as wet fart, but a louder horn is cheaper than a louder exhaust and much more considerate.
(Score: 2) by bradley13 on Wednesday October 12 2022, @04:17PM
That is, of course, an absolute fair statement 😊👍
Everyone is somebody else's weirdo.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Gaaark on Tuesday October 11 2022, @05:42PM
Some human drivers can't see motorcycles (nor anything else, really); that's why they teach you to do shoulder checks and constant vigilance.
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 2) by fraxinus-tree on Tuesday October 11 2022, @06:05PM (6 children)
I don't see some motorcycles either. They sometimes don't reflect in the mirror - I look at the mirror (nothing), I start turning the steering wheel left and I briefly look back (directly, just in case). Surprise! And no, neither my vision nor my cognitive functions are impaired.
(Score: 2) by mcgrew on Tuesday October 11 2022, @06:51PM (2 children)
If a biker is riding in your blind spot, he's an incredibly stupid biker. It ain't none too smart to ride in a blind spot in a car, either.
Carbon, The only element in the known universe to ever gain sentience
(Score: 3, Interesting) by legont on Wednesday October 12 2022, @12:11AM
Yes, and riding a bike teaches one not to do it in a car, which might even the overall probability of dying.
There is a simple solution though. Require kids to get two years in a bike before getting a car license. The whole country will become better right away.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by fraxinus-tree on Wednesday October 12 2022, @07:25AM
It's not about the blind spot. I do rotate my head exactly to mitigate the blind spots. It's the speed. The first time I look the damn bike is out of sight or too far away to be a concern.
The problem is it moves at 150km/h in a 60km/h zone so at the second look it is not a concern, it is a danger.
The speed limit is there for a reason.
And then, here comes the loud pipe.
You hear it too late to be of any safety and too loud for many drivers to react adequately.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 11 2022, @07:00PM
I normally see motorcycles (used to use one exclusively) because I really look for them. The other day I didn't--the motorcycle headlight was in front of an SUV with it's daytime running lights on (DRL) so what was coming at me looked just like the two lights of an SUV. The motorcycle became visible as they got closer, and my view angle changed so I saw three headlights. It was startling for sure, luckily my left turn (in front of them--in the USA) left plenty of room and there was no danger...this time.
When DRLs for cars/trucks were first announced I was against them for just this reason. When motorcycles were the only vehicles with lights on in the daytime they stood out and this really helped make motorcycles more visible.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by istartedi on Tuesday October 11 2022, @07:31PM
I can't recall ever having failed to see a motorcycle, but I can recall plenty of times I failed to see a car because it was riding in my blind spot and my mirrors were misaligned enough to make that spot bigger than usual. Usually I have it adjusted so that it's narrow enough so that you'd have to *try* to ride in there, and idiot cars "elephant crawling" to pass me do it all the time. Always glance back before moving left. So many times there's an idiot there, but never a biker because they tend to pass with authority. Pass with authority. I'm not racing you, and cops aren't going to pull you over for going 5 over. If I'm doing the limit, you need to exceed the limit to pass me in a reasonable time and... anyway, end rant.
The other time I've not seen a car in recent memory was a fluke of my vehicle of which I'm now aware due to the embarrassment this caused. It was a 4-way stop at an intersection with multiple lanes. It's a large intersection, and that's important to understand what happened. What else is important to understand is that modern cars have fat pillars with air bags in them. See where I'm heading here? I looked right to see if I was clear. An SUV in the opposite direction had a small enough angular size to disappear behind the pillar. This is only possible because the intersection is large--2 lanes, wide box. The SUV is far enough away, or it might have also pulled up quickly and thought it had the right of way. I didn't see it until it turned and honked at me. I'm now very careful to move my head from side-to-side at such intersections. Had anything happened I would have been very much at fault and looked like a total idiot hitting a car that was right in front of me.
Appended to the end of comments you post. Max: 120 chars.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 11 2022, @09:29PM
That motorcycle didn't "come out of nowhere." It was where you choose to not observe.
This is how your cognitive function is impaired.
(Score: 2) by PiMuNu on Tuesday October 11 2022, @07:29PM (4 children)
Someone somewhere needs to set up an active management system. I.e. the motorbike broadcasts "I'm a motorbike" or even "I'm a motorbike travelling at X speed".
Similarly "The speed limit is Y" signals, "You are approaching a stop sign" etc.
Why on earth are automated cars relying on flaky visual clues and cruddy visual recognition algorithms??
(Score: 2) by acid andy on Tuesday October 11 2022, @08:10PM (1 child)
It could help but would be useless to protect someone on an older bike that doesn't come with the tech (surely you're not going to force owners to retrofit this tech at their own expense?) or what about a foreign motorcyclist visiting the country? Some bikes don't even have batteries so if their engine stalls there'd be no power for a broadcast device. If you put a battery in it, that would need replacing every few years. It would also need to be very weatherproof. I wonder if there are sources of interference on some roads that would block the signal as well.
So the idea could be good, but only as a backup to the other systems of identification. And the idea of self-driving cars relying on visual input only is scary.
Master of the science of the art of the science of art.
(Score: 2) by legont on Wednesday October 12 2022, @12:16AM
Well, they did force me to retrofit my airplane with the system. BTW, it's designed badly.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 12 2022, @01:06AM (1 child)
> ... set up an active management system.
Now put on your black hacker hat and say that again. Automated systems like radar transponders might work OK for planes where there is a lot of maintenance and supervision of the system (by air traffic control, etc.) But, I'm pretty sure that in big cities and on busy roads, systems like this are just asking to be hacked by someone up to no good.
It's also a much harder problem with road traffic because the headway and spacing is so much closer than aircraft. Any sort of coded "secure" signal has to be verified in a fraction of a second to be useful in many highway scenarios.
Trouble could even come from the lulz: one script kiddie to another, "Hey Pi, I'm bored, let's cause some crashes today."
(Score: 3, Informative) by PiMuNu on Wednesday October 12 2022, @01:16AM
Well, that is a problem anyway - anyone can unscrew stop signs, drop concrete blocks from road bridges onto the highway for lulz. Somehow we manage to get by.
(Score: 1) by UncleBen on Wednesday October 12 2022, @01:40PM
Good summary of the events and thoughtful conjecture on why the vision-only decision might be a big mistake (with many citations & bilbiography):
FortNine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRdzIs4FJJg [youtube.com]
Calming the headlines' flames:
On the Media's Breaking News Consumer Handbooks: https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/otm/projects/breaking-news-consumers-handbook [wnycstudios.org]