from the a-word-means-just-what-I-choose-it-to-mean—neither-more-nor-less dept.
Over at ACM.org, Bertrand Meyer has a bone to pick regarding the use of 'statement' instead of 'instruction' when it comes to code:
I harbor no illusion about the effectiveness of airing this particular pet peeve; complaining about it has about the same chance of success as protesting against split infinitives or music in restaurants. Still, it is worth mentioning that the widespread use of the word "statement" to denote a programming language element, such as an assignment, that directs a computer to perform some change, is misleading. "Instruction" is the better term.
A "statement" is "something stated, such as a single declaration or remark, or a report of fact or opinions" (Merriam-Webster).
Why does it matter? The use of "statement" to mean "instruction" obscures a fundamental distinction of software engineering: the duality between specification and implementation. Programming produces a solution to a problem; success requires expressing both the problem, in the form of a specification, and the devised solution, in the form of an implementation. It is important at every stage to know exactly where we stand: on the problem side (the "what") or the solution side (the "how"). In his famous Goto Statement Considered Harmful of 1968 (in this very venue!), Dijkstra beautifully characterized this distinction as the central issue of programming:
Our intellectual powers are rather geared to master static relations and our powers to visualize processes evolving in time are relatively poorly developed. For that reason we should do (as wise programmers aware of our limitations) our utmost to shorten the conceptual gap between the static program and the dynamic process, to make the correspondence between the program (spread out in text space) and the process (spread out in time) as trivial as possible.
The author gives examples of the difference between instructions and statements, and concludes by saying:
So, please stop saying "an assignment statement" or "a print statement"; say "an assignment instruction" and so on.
At least he said "please."
[We can no longer use terms such as "master/slave" for fear of offending somebody - but what are your pet peeves in your own profession? JR]
(Score: 3, Insightful) by ilsa on Friday December 16, @02:13PM (76 children)
> [We can no longer use terms such as "master/slave" for fear of offending somebody - but what are your pet peeves in your own profession? JR]
No, we don't use such terms for "fear of offending somebody". We don't use such terms because the ARE offensive and we're trying to be respectful of people who have been impacted by actual slavery.
JFC it's not that hard.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 16, @02:21PM (10 children)
the effort to rename all git repositories from master to slave erm ahh MAIN yes.. MAIN that's it change MASTER to MAIN because in a code repository where we store... code.. this is really important so important that we are going to now go back and update all repositories and all of the scripts which reference the head as MASTER and fix the doco come back in a decade okay and maybe we will change it to next non offensive word
(Score: 3, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 16, @02:29PM (2 children)
I really want to go around changing all the git repo master branches to slave now
I have no idea why
I just want to
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 16, @02:42PM
one day we will use our powers for more good
this could be a good example
who is with me
(Score: 4, Funny) by Mr Big in the Pants on Friday December 16, @07:42PM
https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/oppositional-defiant-disorder [webmd.com]
You are welcome.
(Score: 2) by Ox0000 on Friday December 16, @02:34PM (5 children)
If it's something so trivial to you, why do you make such a big deal out of it?
I like that it's "main" and that it's not "master".
Similarly, since we're taking about a fully distributed source code control system, there _is_ no "master" (branch nor repo), but there may be a "main". Think "first among equals", rather than "first, above you". "main" is more accurate than "master". In a distributed source code control system, having or using the term "master" is inaccurate.
That being said, GP said it well
Something something about empathy and all that...
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 16, @02:44PM
i would like care really i would but i just cant bring myself to
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 16, @02:56PM
Thanks for volunteering to rename all of the git repositories around the world
Do let us know when you are done
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 16, @05:03PM
Because we don't like you, your political correctness, or where it leads.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 16, @06:52PM (1 child)
Different AC here.
Whoosh! It's about others who are making a big deal of it.
Still whooshed? There are far more important problems in society. How about we cure cancer, then we'll quibble diction and semantics.
Still whooshed? Consider the context. Really. I dare you. There are a hell of a lot of word that are wonderful in one context, and horrible in another. Think about it.
No? So tell me, where will it end? Will there be any words left to use, ever?
Really? Universally? I'm offended that people are melodramatic over traditional word choices.
I'm offended that people dramatize their offendedness, make far too much fuss, get far too much attention over such trivial crap, when again, cancer is a thing.
I'm offended by this whole issue.
When do I get my day in the spotlight?
When do I get modded +5 Insightful for speaking for the many of us who think this is trifling and "much ado about nothing"???
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 16, @09:14PM
And here we have it, people, this is what it really is about...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 16, @05:04PM
Legalize debt slavery in real life, then we'll have time to worry about githobs.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by looorg on Friday December 16, @02:57PM (25 children)
They are not. They are a perfectly adequate words and ways of describing a relationship. I didn't kidnap them and bring them across the ocean to pick cotton on my digital farm. One isn't better or superior then the other in some other context. Master/Slave drives or devices have nothing to do with the transatlantic slave trade so why it's even a factor here is unclear.
But in general people have gotten to sensitive about things that just doesn't really matter. Be it Master/Slave, Blacklist/Whitelist or Statement/Instruction or whatever other thing they can dream up next to be offended by. People chose to be offended by this and then try and make others conform to their ideas. I'll keep using Master/Server, Black/Whitelist and Statement/Instruction as I see fit and when they are appropriate. This is just relabeling, and it's stupid. A term was picked. It was found adequate at the time and people got used to it and know what it means but now we have to change it cause someone had a bit of a cry about it? Please.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Friday December 16, @03:15PM (5 children)
We have a register in the cpu called the Program Counter. Yet it does not seam to have a total of the number of programs.
How often should I have my memory checked? I used to know but...
(Score: 5, Funny) by RS3 on Friday December 16, @07:00PM (2 children)
Sounds like it's falling apart at the seams.
You may have misunderstood the use of "Counter". It means "to contradict, oppose, negate...". You know, like we're playing chess, and you make a move, and I counter your move. It's the source of all software problems, including malware. There's a secret group working to counter the Program Counter. They're having trouble, I'm afraid. But hope springs eternal. (eternally?)
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Friday December 16, @07:56PM
That definitely helps clear things up. Explains a lot of observed evidence.
How often should I have my memory checked? I used to know but...
(Score: 2) by gawdonblue on Friday December 16, @09:27PM
Bloody hell, I wish I had some modpoints.
Thanks :)
(Score: 2) by maxwell demon on Saturday December 17, @08:46AM (1 child)
That must be why the x86 platform calls it the instruction pointer.
But then, isn't pointer an offensive term as well? After all, if you point your finger at someone it's an offence, isn't it? :-)
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 2) by RS3 on Sunday December 18, @08:10AM
Good point.
Oops. Pointedly sorry. Noooo!
There are "pointer" dog breeds.
How about if you appoint someone to an office. Gotta stop that behavior now I guess.
No more making appointments either.
No escape from reality...
(Score: 3, Touché) by Ox0000 on Friday December 16, @03:17PM (6 children)
There's a bunch of terms that were picked at some point in time and were totally adequate at that time, but aren't anymore.
Language evolves...
Now if you excuse me, I hoist myself into my horseless carriage and be gone...
(Score: 2) by looorg on Friday December 16, @03:41PM (5 children)
While that might be the case, in some cases, I don't see it applying here. The term master/slave or statement/instruction have not become old fashioned or in that regard fallen due to sounding all old-timey. They appear to have fallen cause some people have decided to be sensitive about something completely unrelated and think that it has relevance on other matters. As noted Master/Slave have been around for some time and in this regard have nothing to do with actual slave trading when it comes to technology. Why it wasn't named better then it for the ages but clearly they didn't have an issue with it back then. Clearly this is what should be fixed when we invent time-traveling.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Freeman on Friday December 16, @05:52PM (4 children)
I mean, this more or less settles the debate as to the intention of the use of the terms in my mind: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master/slave_(technology) [wikipedia.org] The negative connotation with the word(s) are definitely there, though. Not that I ever gave it half a thought. I mean, I may be offended by lots of things. That doesn't mean, everything in the entire world, now needs to change to accommodate my feelings.
Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 16, @11:22PM
What about all the male and female connectors in everything from electronics to plumbing? When are we going to swap them all out for non-binary plugs and sockets?
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 17, @12:35PM (2 children)
Now you're just being needlessly discriminatory. In the BSDM community these words have positive connotations.
(Score: 2) by Mykl on Sunday December 18, @09:11PM (1 child)
And if you use Windows, you're definitely into Masochism.
(Score: 2) by Freeman on Monday December 19, @03:31PM
The logic flows well enough!
Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
(Score: 2) by RamiK on Friday December 16, @03:29PM (1 child)
In Latin, slave, serf and servant are the same perfectly adequate word: "Servus". Then, some zombie worshipers got too sensitive about something to do with lions or whatever and then the emperor knocked up one of them... Well, here we are. Go figure.
compiling...
(Score: 2) by krishnoid on Friday December 16, @08:19PM
Yes, but master and servant [youtu.be] has a theme song to go along with it. We should use that instead.
(Score: 5, Informative) by bart9h on Friday December 16, @03:34PM (5 children)
The statement/instruction issue has nothing to do with master/slave or whitelist/blacklist.
The article author is not offended by it. It's a semantic issue.
Words we choose to describe things can influence our thinking, and he thinks that using a more correct term can help.
(Score: 2) by quietus on Friday December 16, @04:52PM
Time is the essence. The word statement expresses the concept that something is already done, a given, a report; while instruction expresses that something still has to be done.
Both concepts are related to time, or -- as the author quotes Edsgar Dijkstra:
Time, now, is the core of many a program's problems: think race conditions, or exceptions.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Friday December 16, @05:37PM
He's not wrong, but it's pretty hopeless. This is the natural evolution of language - words get mis-applied and the mis-application will become the new meaning after long enough in common / popular use.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 2) by Freeman on Friday December 16, @06:03PM (1 child)
The super funny thing to me is that in China, the "bad" thing would be whitelist and the "good" thing would be blacklist. Due to evil being depicted as white and good being depicted as black. At least in movies, etc. Though, that's not really a good explanation of what Yin and Yang are. Still, in the USA and a lot of other cultures, black is the color of mourning / funerals. Whereas in China, white is the color associated with mourning / funerals.
Statement vs instruction is a very stupid argument in my mind.
A statement is more authoritative. While an instruction is less authoritative. Language has meaning, use it accordingly. Don't invent bias and offense, where none is meant. There's plenty of offense to be found all around, without creating offense where none is being shown.
Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
(Score: 2) by gznork26 on Friday December 16, @09:29PM
Or, in another way of thinking, 'statement' describes the syntactics of a linguistic element of the programming language, whereas 'instruction' is the use of that statement within the context of a program.
(Score: 2) by maxwell demon on Saturday December 17, @09:13AM
In my mind, an instruction is connected to machine code and assembly. An instruction is what ultimately the passed to the processor.
Anyway, there are statements that are not instructions, like declaration statements. Those fit exactly the quoted Merriam-Webster definition. If you replace "statement" by "instruction" it stops being accurate for those cases.
Oh, and when not talking about grammar, I wouldn't talk about an "assignment statement" anyway, I would simply talk about an "assignment".
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 4, Informative) by canopic jug on Friday December 16, @03:54PM
They are not. They are a perfectly adequate words and ways of describing a relationship. I didn't kidnap them and bring them across the ocean to pick cotton on my digital farm. One isn't better or superior then the other in some other context. Master/Slave drives or devices have nothing to do with the transatlantic slave trade so why it's even a factor here is unclear.
It isn't about that. It's about finding a way to raise a shitstorm and disrupt projects and grind down key developers. If they can burn out the top developer in a project or reduce their productivity and morale even one iota then they'll use whatever means they can find. If people can be brigade by the twisted panty crowd, that's all the better since they will attack without pay unlike your average shill or astroturfer. In short, the goal is not about swapping words the goal is disruption, specifically of Free and Open Source Software projects.
Solution? "Shut up and hack."
Money is not free speech. Elections should not be auctions.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by JoeMerchant on Friday December 16, @05:34PM (2 children)
>Master/Slave drives or devices have nothing to do with the transatlantic slave trade so why it's even a factor here is unclear.
While I agree with you, and I'm pretty damn far on the liberal side of the spectrum, I have met several (let's be real here, it matters) black (plus one Alaskan native) women who openly protest the use of the word slave more or less whenever they hear it.
In as far as there are choices, and the choices are basically arbitrary, I support the transition of names like the default repository from master to main because they communicate essentially the same idea and why not respect the feelings of 13% of our population.
As for ripping into areas like SPI interface nomenclature [analog.com] and making up new "non-offensive" names to protect the feelings... that's over my personal line of reasonable things to do. The terms Master and Slave clearly describe the relationship, and there's nothing bad about the relationship that's being described. If you're going to work in the field and the words bring you stress, I recommend CBT [apa.org], and I have no problem with insurance covering that to help our multi-generational PTSD population GET OVER IT before they pass their dysfunctions on to future generations.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 2) by vux984 on Wednesday December 21, @08:38PM (1 child)
That's interesting, because that is not my own experience. You said 'several', would you say that is the 'majority' of black women? what about black men? Or is the several you met a minority of the total you've met? I'm curious, not dismissive. 13% of the population may be black, but is 13% offended, or 7%? or 1% ? My circle of developers and friends is largely non-white people, but admittedly few American blacks. The very few I was ever close enough to discuss the question with would find it offensive to be called a slave, even in jest, but simply hearing it in a tech context, such as master repo, or slave-circuit wasn't even notable.
Even so, I have no real objection to changing the name of my git repos either. I didn't think it was 'necessary', but i didn't see any reason not to do it; in my case it was quite painless. But trying to purge it from everywhere, updating APIs, throwing away perfectly good books, ... I'm in full agreement, including the notion that helping people get over it more productive than nurturing it by attempting to censor everything around them so they don't have to hear it.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday December 21, @09:13PM
No, by several, I mean a total of seven, a small, perhaps tiny, but highly vocal minority, of the minorities.
To risk a generalization, my (East) Indian colleagues are too eager trying to please their bosses to ever complain about anything, including many things they should be complaining about as part of their professional duties.
I know very few indigenous American Indians, and sadly the ones I do know have a small majority of fitting the substance abuse and no long term employment profile. Just one of these, from Alaska, expressed some personal issue with the term slave, based on her ancestors (including some who were alive when she was born) who were basically enslaved by the Russian occupiers of Alaska, and to a lesser degree the Canadians and Americans who followed them.
Note: while prejudice may work to a limited degree, on a statistical basis, it is a terrible way to judge individuals, especially including white male engineers...
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 5, Insightful) by janrinok on Friday December 16, @03:17PM (19 children)
The term has been used in engineering for a long, long time without anyone being offended by it [wikipedia.org]. Calling a person a 'slave' is offensive, but the slave cylinder in hydraulic breaking is an entirely accurate description of its role. Do you get offended by the term 'sacrificial lining', which refers to a coating or lining applied to an object that is intended to wear away and protect the item that it is in? Do you really think that we are actually using a word derived from sacrifice just so that we can offend people?
In computing we have bus mastering [wikipedia.org]- and if there is a master does that not imply that there is a slave or a secondary, subservient bus?
Or how about "A modern, atomic version of a master clock [wikipedia.org] is the large clock ensemble found at the U.S. Naval Observatory." Best we let the US Navy know that they are wrong to call it such a thing.
Lots of professions also use the word Master - a Master-at-Arms, a Master Seaman, a Master Pilot etc. Is that insulting all the other royal guards, seamen or pilots?
There are thousands more, including:
I do not use the word 'slave' when referencing people. But nor do I think that it should be written in a Code of Conduct about how to write software or being forbidden in the description of an engineering principle. If you use it inappropriately then you deserve all that comes your way. Slavery was wrong - not the word slave.
(Score: 3, Funny) by EJ on Friday December 16, @03:27PM (5 children)
Nah. I think the word "serf" would be better. Lord/serf sounds cooler to me. Instead of "slaving" two drives together, you can serf them. I'm serfing the drives!
(Score: 2) by looorg on Friday December 16, @03:31PM (3 children)
A did chuckle a bit to myself as I read that one. I actually really like it. I think it should be the new standard. That said Lord and Serf drives are a think of the past for most systems these days but I do like the words for it.
(Score: 3, Touché) by turgid on Friday December 16, @04:05PM (2 children)
That's offensive to us British people who are still ruled by a Monarchy and hierarchy of Lords, appointed not elected! The rest of us feel like serfs...
I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent [wikipedia.org].
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Friday December 16, @10:47PM
Chieftain and indians, as in "too many of the first, not enough of the latter".
PHB-es (and catbergs) should be pleased.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 16, @11:30PM
You don't just feel like serfs, you are serfs.
But don't feel bad about it, those of us in republics are just as much serfs to our own "aristocracy", the only difference is the titles.
(Score: 2) by kazzie on Saturday December 17, @03:19PM
Serf is reserved for web-based applications.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Friday December 16, @04:33PM (4 children)
Excellent example of how words like "master" and "slave" can be used in various fields of engineering.
I notice how some decades ago we began to use the terms "client" / "server". What would be called the server (eg, slave) was formerly the master. But now the client is the master.
Another note about using terms like this in new contexts.
Young men used to lie about their age to go fight for their country.
Now, cartoons hurt their feelings and mean tweets give them PTSD.
How often should I have my memory checked? I used to know but...
(Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Sunday December 18, @10:06PM (3 children)
Very confusing in the case of X. The server is at the display, and the client is a computer looking to display its stuff onto the display. The the human being at the display is the at the server, where he gives the computer, the client, instructions.
Just who or what is the master here?
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Tuesday December 20, @02:52PM (2 children)
I almost pointed out the additional layer of confusion of X.
How often should I have my memory checked? I used to know but...
(Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Tuesday December 20, @11:28PM (1 child)
It's because X has the attitude that the program decides to use a screen and a terminal ... and it can choose to use as many of these as it can get access to. So the program is the client, and the screen serves it.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday December 21, @03:16PM
I have always understood that without difficulty. Yet it still seems backwards. It points out their backward thinking about users and user interface concepts. The program is not the center of the universe. The user is.
How often should I have my memory checked? I used to know but...
(Score: 2) by VLM on Friday December 16, @04:45PM
Maybe they're trying to whitewash the concept of slavery by changing it from inhuman behavior to merely a censored word.
Like the arguments, admittedly technically true, that the worst parts of the south or even contemporary detroit, are better than their demographic equals would get in the best parts of Africa. Very much technically true, although the ends does not justify the means.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Friday December 16, @05:42PM
>Master Seaman, a Master Pilot
Master Craftsman takes that stretch of the term fully into a new domain: Master of their trade, fully proficient, no slaves required. While Master Pilot and Master Seamen might expect to be completely obeyed by lesser Pilots and Seamen they work with, their titles still have meaning without such relationships being involved at all.
Reminds me of when I was first promoted to Principal Engineer. I didn't like the idea of being in charge of a bunch of children, and my boss was a terrible speller anyway, so I requested my title be revised to: Principle Engineer, same pay, same responsibilities, just different connotations.
This go around when I was made Principal Engineer within this company, I let the spelling stand - both because fighting a machine of this size is Quixotic, and because: let's face it, most of my value in this place is keeping the children in line.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 3, Insightful) by ilsa on Saturday December 17, @06:18PM (5 children)
Ok you raise a couple of different things. One is that the word "Master" is being used in different contexts and so has different implications. A Master indicates a level of proficiency in that career. As in "I have mastered X". I'm not aware of anyone having an issue with that.
But the rest... your argument boils down to:
- You want to use the terms Master/Slave with the exact same intent as was used against humans, but because it's being applied to machines it's somehow "completely different". People who have been impacted by these abuses do not deserve the right to feel uncomfortable with the association.
- We've always done it this way and you don't want to make the effort to change to something else.
Master/Slave is the words engineers chose to attribute to all those various technologies and patterns. White engineers. White engineers who were very much steeped in the racism and abuses of that era. White engineers that use those words in the exact same context and intent as was used to describe enslave people in the past.
There was nothing stopping anyone from choosing, say, Primary/Secondary. In most of your above cases, Primary/Secondary would have been *more* appropriate than Master/Slave. Using Master/Slave was an intentional choice to use terms that are triggering to a large demographic of people. And of course they would, because they were constructs of the society they grew up in. Even if there was such as thing as black engineers back in the day, they sure as hell wouldn't have had the nerve to oppose the terminology. Throwing terms like Master/Slave around is a way for you to dogwhistle, "We must continually remind you to know your place, darkie".
It is also relevant that slavery is still very much alive today, albeit with a tablecloth draped over it to make it less uncomfortable. So the negative associations regarding "Master/Slave" are still being reinforced to this day.
You could easily make the same argument that manipulating the value of a variable is called "Raping" that variable. I mean, it's just a word right? It's accurate. It's in the context of software development so nobody would have ANY reason to be upset by that, right? But they would, because the very idea is abhorent. If that ever happened, you could be sure that there would be a sudden increase of software developers getting divorced, or dying by "mysterious circumstances". Hell, it's hard to even pick up a bottle of rapeseed oil in the grocery store without feeling a little weird about it.
Language is not engineering or math. It has context, whether you like it or not. It has baggage, whether you like it or not. The words you choose are a reflection of a variety of different things, both personal and societal, and they most definitely have a lasting impact on others whether you like it or not.
Maybe you and the other tech bros on this site don't appreciate being reminded of this fact, but that's reality.
If you disagree with the above, I dare you to walk around Israel with with a big swastika on your jacket. I mean, it's a positive symbol that has been used by myriad cultures over thousands of years. That's all that matters right? So go ahead... walk around Jerusalem with a big swastika on your back. Lets see what happens. I'm sure they'll be COMPLETELY understanding when you explain to them that it's their fault for reading too much into it.
(Score: 2) by janrinok on Saturday December 17, @07:00PM (2 children)
Who was the bad guy in the master/slave relationship? I would have said the Master - yet you accept that title without a problem. But the victim - the slave - is a word that must be avoided?
Your argument does not even make sense. Why aren't you arguing for the removal of the title Master?
I repeat "Slavery was, and is, bad". The word slave is not.
(Score: 3, Touché) by ilsa on Saturday December 17, @08:41PM (1 child)
...what? It doesn't make sense because for some inexplicable reason you think I'm arguing for the outright banning of specific words without any consideration of context. That is not what I am arguing.
My point is to that using the combined TERMS Master/Slave, in THAT specific, operating context, is oppressive.
"Master Of Arms" or "Master of Ceremonies" or "Masters Degree" are not an issue because there is no such thing as a "Slave of Arms", "Slave of Ceremonies" or "Slaves Degree". There is no implication of wielding power at the detriment of another.
Using Master/Slave maintains the same context, the enslavement of people, whether you are talking about human beings, or machinery. Any discussion you have with anyone that has been in an abusive situation is going to have that context floating around the back of their head. Despite all your protestations, you cannot separate that antagonistic context from that usage.
(Score: 2) by janrinok on Sunday December 18, @06:39AM
Do not use the word swastika again - I am deeply offended by it as it evokes terrible memories of a time gone by. Equally, I object to the words 'teacup', 'giraffe', 'antagonistic', 'oppressive', and the colour 'green'. I would appreciate it if you remove those words from your vocabulary for fear of upsetting me. The person sitting next to me has a different list of words but I will encourage them to submit those words separately.
Can you see the problem yet?
(Score: 2) by janrinok on Sunday December 18, @06:30AM
No, you are failing to understand the concept that is implied by a master/slave system.
It is NOT a secondary system. A secondary system operates entirely separately from the primary system. A slave system can ONLY operate under the control of a master controller. It is not independent of, but entirely dependent on, the master system.
It is NOT a backup system. A slave can only operate if the master system is still operating. It cannot back it up.
Primary, secondary and backup systems can all contain a master/slave element but they do not need to do so.
You do not understand a basic engineering concept - I suggest you stop arguing about the matter because you are simply wrong. It has been explained to you several times in this discussion - yet you still do not understand.
I have never met a slave. I have certainly never owned a slave. The concept of slavery is against everything I believe in. DO NOT try to lay your assumed guilt on me or anyone else on this site. If you dislike the word then that is your problem. Do not tell others what they must think or how they must express themselves. We support free speech and freedom of expression - you are trying to impose the opposite. If you are so upset by it please feel free to open a journal entry and discuss knitting, astronomy, or whatever interests you. You can also control what people say. I would suggest that you stay away from engineering.
That is simply irrelevant and you are again trying to shame people by making an emotional challenge that is completely unconnected with the topic under discussion. If that is how you wish to lead your life then do so - but do not attempt to enforce it on others.
History happened - you cannot whitewash it away by banning certain words simply because you cannot cope with them.
(Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Sunday December 18, @10:11PM
Which is exactly why they decided to start calling it Canola oil instead.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by DannyB on Friday December 16, @03:45PM
In the 1996 movie "That Thing You Do", one of the boys rushes in to the appliance store, and turns on the large stereo. The store owner says to the boy "you keep your cotton pickin' hands off that!"
Back in the 1960s and 70s I have some vague recollections of hearing that phrase "cotton pickin' hands". I don't recall hearing it any time after the 1970s.
How often should I have my memory checked? I used to know but...
(Score: 2) by bart on Friday December 16, @04:05PM (2 children)
Look up in any electronics component catalogue for a J/K master/slave flip flop. Enjoy!
https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/master-slave-jk-flip-flop/ [geeksforgeeks.org]
And the fact that slavery is awful, and slave owners should be killed (unfortunately there still are plenty!), does not mean the word has somehow become evil.
(Score: 2) by maxwell demon on Saturday December 17, @09:26AM (1 child)
Full agreement on this.
Complete disagreement on that. They should be punished. Severely. But not killed.
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Sunday December 18, @10:13PM
Because killing would be too easy on them?
(Score: 2) by crafoo on Friday December 16, @04:35PM (1 child)
No. You may only speak for yourself.
I use these terms, know who it offends, and I am quite happy about that. Be offended. What are you going to do about it?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 16, @04:59PM
> What are you going to do about it?
Most likely, I'm going to ignore you. You may find that being ignored is OK at first (people leave you alone) but eventually most people find that being social (and thus "socialized") has advantages.
(Score: 2) by sjames on Friday December 16, @06:13PM (3 children)
That never made any sense to me. It's a damned MACHINE, there is no ethical connotation to one device being slaved to another. There are many things that are OK in a machine but not a human. I kill processes all the time, for example.
Do we also say that Abe Lincoln abolished making some people lesser in rights than others?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 16, @11:39PM (2 children)
The problem is that the line is blurring. Machines are getting smarter and people are getting dumber.
But seriously, this is actually occurring. Look up the way pick and pack employees are now controlled down to the second by the computer/communicator strapped to their arm. That thing is actually controlled by a server, and it would be entirely accurate to call the one on their arm a slave device. How long before that terminology would apply to the person wearing it?
(Score: 2) by sjames on Saturday December 17, @01:43AM
Perhaps we should apply that term right now to highlight just how degrading things like that are. In things like that, it's usually the unethical people who want to nerf the language.
(Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Sunday December 18, @10:16PM
Unless the thing strapped to their arm uses the X protocol. Then it's called the server and the big machine it talks to is the client.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by sjames on Friday December 16, @06:44PM (1 child)
Fun fact, robot as a term derived from the Czech word robota which means forced labor or slave.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Saturday December 17, @04:24AM
Nothing funny about RUR
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
(Score: 4, Insightful) by vux984 on Friday December 16, @09:12PM (3 children)
I'd like to dig into that a bit.
-- Booker T Washington, 1911
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Booker_T._Washington [wikipedia.org]
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/542300-there-is-another-class-of-coloured-people-who-make-a [goodreads.com]
Honestly, I think this is one of those cases.
When the vast vast majority of us used the word master and slave in programming & automation since the dawn of computing science, there was no intention of anything offensive, or with any connection to actual slavery, and certainly not in any sense of 'support' for actual slavery or support for racism. That's not what we intended to say, and not what I think other software and hardware people heard.
Racism and the legacy of slavery of course remain significant issues in society today, and for whatever reason these terms were recently more significantly latched onto as symbols of oppression and the modern struggle with racism. In reaction their appearance in more innocuous places such as git repos and software design patterns became notable, and to some people (I would argue primarily the people alluded to in the quote) became "problematic". They drew attention to it and from there: debate, and ultimately: controversy; and that in turn drew even more attention.
As a result of the attention and controversy, language has again evolved and now 'master' in the context of programming has picked up another new connotation -- its meaning has been co-opted by the controversy itself. Today, to make the choice to use "master", knowing that its attracted this attention and controversy is now effectively an explicit political statement in support of racism/slavery.
In other words, if i decide to call something a 'master' or 'slave' in 2022, a reasonable interpretation is that I WANT to invoke the controversy, and make a political statement in support of racism.
Since I don't want to make that political statement, I can no longer support using the terms at all, and switched to using 'main' instead.
Not because I agree they were offensive all along, or even that they are truly offensive in their own right, right now, but I do agree that there is no way to use them any longer without attracting this controversy and attention, and that the only purpose served in using them is to deliberately wade into that mud.
This is what bugs me the most. "Actual slavery" is very real in the modern world, and the actual people affected by actual slavery are far more concerned about the ACTUAL SLAVERY than this terminology purge in source-code-land. I believe that as far as they're concerned this is a bullshit nonsense sideshow of no consequence to the plight of actual people impacted by actual slavery.
I further believe the people who are offended have, at worst, been impacted by actual slavery the way I have been impacted by World War I: in a very real, but also very abstract sense.
Nonetheless, honestly, I would have gone along with the terminology purge anyway, because I don't see any value in causing needless offence. It's a small thing for me to accommodate it, and I have no real reason to insist on perpetuating terms they don't like or that they associate with oppression or racism or slavery. I can see their perspective even if I don't entirely buy in, and I can respect that. The alternatives that have been proposed are fine. And conversely, I don't see anything that could possibly be gained by fighting with them about it.
But my primary motivation for changing terms is not because i want to respect people who have been impacted by slavery in an abstract way. Its because I feel the debate has been co-opted by politics and I vehemently don't agree with the political statement I'd be perceived to be making if i were to choose to use those terms now.
(Score: 2, Disagree) by ilsa on Saturday December 17, @08:14PM (2 children)
The thing is, Master/Slave has _always_ been a politically charged term. It was then, it is now. What changed, is that the iron grip of people who were in favour of using these racially charged terms have has loosened enough that other people's voice can finally be heard.
So now we get to the inevitable reaction:
> As a result of the attention and controversy, language has again evolved and now 'master' in the context of programming has picked up another new connotation -- its meaning has been co-opted by the controversy itself. Today, to make the choice to use "master", knowing that its attracted this attention and controversy is now effectively an explicit political statement in support of racism/slavery.
You make it sound as if it was only racially charged now. It has *always* been a racially charged term. I mean, look at the terms themselves. Using the words "Master" and "Slave" together has _always_ been in the context of slavery, and it's disingenuous to think otherwise. Just because you use it in the context of technology, doesn't magically erase that baggage.
>Its because I feel the debate has been co-opted by politics and I vehemently don't agree with the political statement I'd be perceived to be making if i were to choose to use those terms now.
Nothing has been "co-opted". This was ALWAYS about politics. That was _literally_ the point this whole time. Even the original inception of the use of terms like Master/Slave, was politics. They could have picked far more relevant terms early on, but they didn't.
I don't disagree that the people impacted by slavery have far more tangible issues to deal with, and that a terminology change will do jack eff all to help with that. I also don't recall anyone saying that this terminology change was going to help that either.
Look at the demographics for engineering. Or for software development. Anyone who isn't male and white, varies from "extremely" to "shockingly" underrepresented. The totally insensitive tech bro culture has made these career paths not just unnattractive, but distasteful. I personally know people who left these industry, and they chose to give up promising careers because that was preferable than subjecting themselves to the constant abuse. The endless micro-aggressions. The entire culture surrounding all things engineering is toxic and has been for a very long time.
The culture needs to change, and that change needs to start somewhere. Language and culture are reflections of each other, so if you want to change the culture, you have to change the language. Removing the oppressive language is both a litmus test and a first attempt to correcting this toxicity.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by janrinok on Sunday December 18, @09:56AM
It has NEVER been about politics. It has been about photography, hydraulics, atomic clocks, computer hardware, etc.
Nobody mentioned race - until you just have. Can't you have white slaves controlled by white people? Or yellow slaves controlled by yellow people? People are forced into working as sex slaves today - it has nothing to do with race. Why is this no longer a discussion about master/slave terminology in engineering? Now you have produced the 'race' card and tried to turn it into a race issue. You are the very person that we object to. You are the problem. You want to introduce 'political correctness' into engineering and computing. You do not have that right and many of us find your attempts to do so offensive.
It is NOT a race issue. Computer hardware is not a race issue. Writing software is not a race issue. Engineering is not a race issue. It is simply a word that you cannot cope with.
(Score: 2) by vux984 on Wednesday December 21, @08:19PM
1984 was a warning not an instruction manual.
Attempting to control the language is the introduction of even worse oppression. You are all bit literally telling me that the ideas of master and slave is wrong-think that should be removed from language. That's beyond the pale.
If you want to make the case that bro-code culture is toxic and needs to be addressed, I'll get on board with that. If you are telling me that slavery is wrong, Ill get on board with that too! wholeheartedly, and even donate to actual causes tackling the actual slave trade that is actually happening today.
If you are arguing that using the word 'slave' to describe a hydraulic cylinder in a brake system is perpetrating 'racism' or 'oppression' or 'toxicity' that's a bridge too far, with no real support but your own echo chamber of social justice agitators. If the words were racist slurs then perhaps you could make the argument -- but 'master' seriously? Not buying it. And 'slave' ... ok... maybe, in a very VERY specific context of addressing a person (esp a person of color) it would be pretty darned offensive, but that context/usage is also exactly like 'boy' or 'oreo', which are likewise just as offensive in that same specific context and not-even-a-little-bit offensive when used anywhere else.
Are you looking to rename the Oreo cookie? Is "boy" next on your hit list to remove from language?
And yes, master-slave paired together is a metaphor for the condition of human slavery, which is of course a terrible thing when done to people. But merely using the words to describe that relationship as an abstract concept isn't offensive or racist, when its not referencing a specific instance or era of slavery; and especially not when the application is inanimate objects.
A slave-cylinder or slave-circuit shouldn't be an offensive concept to anyone.
The word itself, really, if its going to be offensive to someone should be more offensive to Slavs (people from Slavic countries), since THAT's where the word came from, from the Slavs people owned/bought/sold/traded in. Or the people who still live as actual slaves -- the millions of them globally. You want to know what is oppressing them? Its not the word slave in abstract tech metaphors. Its the people actually enslaving them.
That said, I clearly don't get to decide what other people find offensive and who takes offence, but I sincerely think the only people who got offended by slave-cylinders and slave-circuits and master git branches are the type of people who were referenced in the Booker T Washington quote.
I've seen instances of bro-coders and hostile workplaces -- this particular use of language was, in my opinion, simply not relevant to the problem whatsoever. And I don't know anyone who thought they were problematic or who agrees it was racist or oppressive or toxic. If your mind truly thinks of racism and oppression when you see the phrase 'slave circuit' on an electrical drawing, that likely says more about you than the people who created it.
Nevertheless, the drama around it has made it problematic now. It's a fait accompli. Onwards and forwards.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by mcgrew on Friday December 16, @10:13PM (2 children)
No, we don't use such terms for "fear of offending somebody". We don't use such terms because the ARE offensive and we're trying to be respectful of people who have been impacted by actual slavery.
I'm sure you can't realize it, but you underlined the OP's point. YOU are the thin skinned soul whom we fear offending. I find that in itself to be offensive; the master and slaves spoken of aren't Blacks and Jews and AREN'T HUMAN BEINGS and the terms fit exactly. There should be nothing whatever disrespectful in using those terms, they just offend karens who want to regulate speech.
Here's offensive and disrespectful: Fuck you, you honkey motherfucker! And I mean that seriously. Fuck you and the lame horse you rode in on. Your karen stench gags me.
Carbon, The only element in the known universe to ever gain sentience
(Score: 1, Flamebait) by ilsa on Saturday December 17, @10:17PM (1 child)
Awww, is your poor widdle tech bwo feewings hurt?
Why are you being so hysterical? They're just words after all.
(Score: 2) by mcgrew on Monday December 19, @09:45PM
I'm having a really hard time discerning your point. Perhaps you responded to the wrong comment?
Carbon, The only element in the known universe to ever gain sentience
(Score: 1) by Runaway1956 on Friday December 16, @02:30PM (15 children)
Video. I read and hear the terms 'footage' and 'film' constantly, where the terms are entirely inappropriate. Footage refers to feet of film used to record a clip, or scene, or whatever. And, film is pretty much self explanatory. Almost no one today uses film. I question whether Hollywood still uses film, with reels of video film. Almost everything is digital. Every time I see or hear those two terms used, a little piece of my mind shoots off on a tangent, questioning whether they used old, archaic equipment, or they used newer equipment for a reason, or the speaker/writer just doesn't know anything about video.
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Friday December 16, @03:13PM (9 children)
Electric cars have "gas" petals. ICE cars also have "gas" pedals.
If you use your phone to record a "karen" or "kevin" in public having a freak out, they say "You can't videotape me!". (Then they usually add: "your an idiot")
Don't get me started on icons. When the 1983 Lisa and 1984 Macintosh had icons, like the trash can, those icons were familiar and mint something. Now we see icons like:
Reel-to-reel tape for voicemail.
Letter envelope with stamp for email.
Floppy disk icon for save. (when shown an actual floppy disk, a kid says: hey look! Someone 3D printed a Save icon!)
A desk phone handset icon (called a "receiver") for making a phone call. But you still see those phones in very old movies.
Many other examples of icons that refer to things lost in the sands of time.
How often should I have my memory checked? I used to know but...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 16, @05:05PM
Pet peeve: Senseless word escalation, often by journalists (and wanna-be journalists like bloggers) who think longer words make their work more impressive.
Example:
damping = remove energy from a system, damp the oscillation
dampening = making something wet...but often used instead of "damping"
Has exactly the opposite effect on me--when I see "dampening" used incorrectly I've been known to say, "That author is all wet."
(Score: 2) by turgid on Friday December 16, @09:44PM (4 children)
Where I come from, cars have "accelerator pedals" not "gas pedals." They also (used to) have glove compartments, bonnets, boots, windscreens... and I used to get goose pimples and do press-ups.
I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent [wikipedia.org].
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 17, @04:43AM (2 children)
Sure, but do your cars also have "decelerator pedals"?
(Score: 2) by turgid on Saturday December 17, @09:06AM (1 child)
You'd think, wouldn't you? We call that one the brake. "The brake is your friend," as my driving instructor always used to say. I think he was trying to hint at something.
I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent [wikipedia.org].
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Tuesday December 20, @03:00PM
Some cars have bumper stickers:
I brake for animals.
Sum cars have bumper stickers:
I break fur animals.
How often should I have my memory checked? I used to know but...
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Tuesday December 20, @03:08PM
I have just learned of the sad passing of Queen Elizabeth II on Sept 8, 2022.
How often should I have my memory checked? I used to know but...
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Saturday December 17, @04:39AM (2 children)
Diesel have gas pedal, even one shouldn't use gasoline in a Diesel.
It was only 11 years ago: A Magazine Is an iPad that Doesn't Work [theatlantic.com].
And yes, the above is about text and photos printed on paper, nothing about ammo [wikipedia.org] or 3D-printed guns (a topic which has little things to do with technology nowaday - grin) - there's even a short film about it (grin) [youtube.com]
Careful there, some may think you're talking about something else [wikipedia.org]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
(Score: 1) by Runaway1956 on Saturday December 17, @01:40PM (1 child)
Here in the states, most drivers call that pedal the throttle. Calling it the gas pedal is the mark of a noobie with no experience.
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 17, @09:40PM
> in the states, most drivers call that pedal the throttle
Which is correct for gasoline engines, the throttle restricts the air coming into the engine. But in a diesel there is no throttle on the air intake, the power control is done by varying the amount of fuel.
My choice is "accelerator"...or if you are talking with a kid, "go pedal" (and then the brake is "stop pedal".)
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Friday December 16, @05:51PM (1 child)
Yeah, but I still "tape" the DVDs we borrow from the Library for more convenient later viewing.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 1) by Runaway1956 on Friday December 16, @08:26PM
Touche mod needed. ;^)
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 2) by maxwell demon on Saturday December 17, @12:41PM (1 child)
Sure, and "gay" means just happy, but I keep hearing homosexual people called "gay" even when they aren't happy. Or maybe the meaning of that word just changed?
Anyway, video originally referred to magnetic tape recording of moving images. I don't think there are many "videos" that are still recorded on magnetic tape these days. In particular, I doubt that YouTube "videos" are stored on magnetic tape (well, maybe on backup tapes).
Well, that's the origin. According to Merriam-Webster, [merriam-webster.com] one meaning (the one listed first!) of that word is: "recorded video material".
And almost no one today uses video in the original meaning of the word.
Well, the most probable explanation is that the speaker uses modern day English, instead of outdated English.
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Sunday December 18, @10:32PM
And almost no one today uses video in the original meaning of the word.
Agreed. Almost no one speaks Latin any more. "Video" meant "I see."
(Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Sunday December 18, @10:26PM
In technical fields, we name new things by metaphor.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Bean Dip on Friday December 16, @03:20PM (7 children)
Statement is a technical term defined in the majority of high-level language reference documents, and has nothing to do with the meaning of the term in English.
https://iso-9899.info/wiki/The_Standard [iso-9899.info]
https://isocpp.org/std/the-standard [isocpp.org]
https://docs.python.org/3/reference/index.html [python.org]
https://docs.oracle.com/javase/specs/ [oracle.com]
https://fortranwiki.org/fortran/show/Fortran+2018 [fortranwiki.org]
Bertrand should code in assembly. Assembly has instructions.
(Score: 4, Funny) by DannyB on Friday December 16, @03:47PM (5 children)
Nobody seems offended if computers execute statements. But everyone will be offended if computers begin executing instructions. Next they will execute instructors. For making statements.
How often should I have my memory checked? I used to know but...
(Score: 1) by Bean Dip on Friday December 16, @03:56PM (1 child)
Just wait until they find out about variable assignment.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Tuesday December 20, @03:05PM
If I am given an assignment, I prefer it to be fixed. I don't want it be variable, nor discriminatory.
How often should I have my memory checked? I used to know but...
(Score: 2) by looorg on Friday December 16, @04:11PM (2 children)
Somehow everyone gets up in arms when the computers (or AI) want to execute people ...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 17, @04:42AM
Too late, ARMs are everywhere nowadays, RISC is surely a thing.
(Score: 2) by choose another one on Saturday December 17, @07:08PM
It'll be a long time, IMO, before AIs _want_ to execute people (requiring them to be capable of feeling, of desire), unless someone redefines "want" first.
What is more concerning is "AIs" actually executing people because they decide to, which is likely to happen far sooner than AIs being able to "want".
(Score: 2) by Thexalon on Friday December 16, @11:31PM
Came here to suggest this: Although I'd argue that an "instruction" only really applies to a bit of machine code, because it's what the a CPU actually executes. A "statement" is a line of code that (if all goes to plan) gets translated into machine code.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.