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posted by janrinok on Sunday January 29 2023, @10:05AM   Printer-friendly
from the depressing-thoughts? dept.

Bacteria evolve drug resistance more readily when antidepressants are around:

Jianhua Guo is a professor at the Australian Centre for Water and Environmental Biotechnology. His research focuses on removing contaminants from wastewater and the environmental dimensions of antimicrobial resistance. One of those dimensions is the overuse of antibiotics, which promotes resistance to these drugs.

Guo wondered if the same might hold true for other types of pharmaceuticals as well. His lab found that they definitely do. Specific antidepressants—SSRIs and SNRIs—promote resistance to different classes of antibiotics. This resistance is heritable over 33 bacterial generations, even once the antidepressant is removed.
[...]
Antibiotic resistance is an enormous threat to human health. Since antidepressants are prescribed and used in such massive quantities, the fact that they can induce antibiotic resistance should not be considered one of the more trivial of their side effects. It might even be taken into account in the design of new, more effective antidepressants.

PNAS, 2023. DOI: 10.1073/pnas.2208344120

Also reported at:


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  • (Score: 4, Interesting) by JoeMerchant on Sunday January 29 2023, @03:34PM

    by JoeMerchant (3937) on Sunday January 29 2023, @03:34PM (#1289178)
  • (Score: 0, Offtopic) by crafoo on Sunday January 29 2023, @05:13PM

    by crafoo (6639) on Sunday January 29 2023, @05:13PM (#1289187)

    wow, it's just like poetry. SSRIs and super-bacterial infections. Take these away and the only thing mid-40s cat ladies have left is xanax and wine.

  • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Runaway1956 on Sunday January 29 2023, @08:58PM (8 children)

    by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Sunday January 29 2023, @08:58PM (#1289203) Journal

    https://www.newsweek.com/mass-shootings-ssri-meds-claimswhat-we-do-know-what-we-dont-1722549 [newsweek.com]

    https://www.psychreg.org/antidepressants-ssri-mass-shootings/ [psychreg.org]

    https://thoughtcatalog.com/jeremy-london/2019/09/37-mass-shooters-who-were-on-antidepressants/ [thoughtcatalog.com]

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/psych-unseen/201506/mass-shootings-psychiatric-medications-and-rick-perry [psychologytoday.com]

    https://www.cchrint.org/2017/10/10/another-mass-shooting-another-psychiatric-drug/ [cchrint.org]

    Correlation does not equal causation - but the correlation is strong here.

    How 'bout we just look at it with a common sense perspective? We have an imbalanced person (mentally, psychologically, spiritually, or whatever) so we put him on mind-altering drugs. He may, or he may not, take those drugs according to directions. He may or may not stay on the drugs. The drugs may or may not do him any good. But, time after time, that imbalanced individual goes off his drugs, then goes berserk. As I say, the correlation is strong. Far more people with a history of antidepressant medications go off the deep end, than people without such a history.

    It's far past time that more serious research went into antidepressants! Correlation may not be causation, but it certainly helps to point the direction for researchers to look!

    • (Score: 5, Interesting) by Azuma Hazuki on Sunday January 29 2023, @09:27PM (2 children)

      by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Sunday January 29 2023, @09:27PM (#1289206) Journal

      This is, as usual, incredibly dishonest of you, because your intention in posting just the headlines is that people won't read them and will go "anyone taking any drug used for any mental health application for any reason will have a heart attack and/or go violently insane either while on said drug(s) or when coming off them, therefore, all these drugs are bad, and anyone manufacturing or prescribing them is evil."

      Breaking this down article by article:
      - The BBC article specifically cites citalopram and escitalopram (the purified, isolated S-enantiomer of citalopram) as having a small risk of prolonging the QT interval. Escitalopram's risk is far lower even than citalopram's, which is why it's a more common drug and dosed in half the amount that racemic citalopram is.
      - The Newsweek article is sensationalist trash, and that's me being polite. Of particular interest is this quote, which says the *opposite* of what you want the article to say:
      "Responding to Newsweek, Fox's spokesperson highlighted a 2015 report which claimed that SSRIs were "modestly associated" with violent crime in participants aged 15-24 "but not significant for individuals aged 25 and older."
      - The CCHRINT link's list of cases includes people on different medications instead of, or along with, SSRIs. In particular, the so-called "mood stabilizers," better known as (mostly) atypical antipsychotics, are widely known for unpleasant side effects and even many people in pharmaceuticals, myself included, dislike these drugs and wish for gentler treatments. Many of them were also on benzos, which are not and were never intended to be used long-term. Xanax/alprazolam in particular, due to its short half-life and rapid time to Cmax, is a problem medication.
      - Finally, the Psychology Today article, again, says the precise opposite of what you were hoping to prove.

      Do you even fucking read these things before you post them? Do you really think we're all just gonna look at the link title and nod along without a second thought? Buddy, that isn't how you science. Science isn't taught at the Academy of What Some Crazy Hobo in the Pub Done Tole Me. Fuck off back to the kiddie table in your journal and let the adults handle things.

      --
      I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
      • (Score: 2, Troll) by Runaway1956 on Sunday January 29 2023, @10:38PM (1 child)

        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Sunday January 29 2023, @10:38PM (#1289217) Journal

        which says the *opposite* of what you want the article to say:

        Are you psychic or something? Look at the title of my post. I've introduced more controversy to the discussion. Nothing about my post indicates "what you want the article to say", as you put it. Controversy is only controversial if there are more than one side to the versy, amirite?

        Do you even fucking read these things before you post them?

        What if I do? What if I don't? What if I'm introducing controversy to the issue? Maybe I read them, maybe I didn't. But, you're psychic, you don't need me to answer your questions.

        Now, how 'bout you address the issue that I introduced? Do these psychoactive drugs lead to paranois, murderous fixation, delusions, and all the rest, or not? Are you telling us that none of these drugs can possibly lead to anyone going batshit crazy?

        I'll assert that only batshit crazy people take these drugs. Now, the ball's in your court again.

        • (Score: 2, Troll) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday January 30 2023, @04:19AM

          by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Monday January 30 2023, @04:19AM (#1289238) Journal

          Sorry, I can see your lips moving but all that's coming out is "aur aur aur aur!" Since, you know, you're sealioning. JAQing off in public is illegal.

          --
          I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
    • (Score: 3, Interesting) by krishnoid on Sunday January 29 2023, @10:29PM (4 children)

      by krishnoid (1156) on Sunday January 29 2023, @10:29PM (#1289215)

      I look at it from a common-sense perspective too, but the sources I pull from are how the gut microbiome interacts with serotonin [nih.gov], and that antibiotics kill the gut microbiome, after which it's replaced by who knows what. The correlation starts to look like ... a correlation between

      • antibiotic use (not necessarily resistance)
      • gut microbiome death
      • subsequent (?) serotonin dysregulation, and
      • subsequent (?) prescription of antidepressants

      Throw in a couple more steps of some kind, and baby, you got a feedback system going [youtu.be].

      The fact that a gut microbiome exists separately but cooperatively inside the human organism, makes me wonder if everyone should finish their last pill in an antibiotic course, fast 12 hours, then take some sort of probiotics and not eat for a few more hours, in an attempt to pre-seed the gut with a desirable microbiome after killing off the old one. Assuming probiotics can do that.

      • (Score: 3, Informative) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday January 30 2023, @04:23AM (3 children)

        by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Monday January 30 2023, @04:23AM (#1289239) Journal

        Probiotics alone can't; you need prebiotic foods, mainly certain kinds of fiber, to feed the good buggies too. Kefir is an excellent source of probiotics, as is true lactofermented sauerkraut. For prebiotic fibers, try oatmeal (beta-glucans) and beans (raffinose and other fructo-oligosaccharides).

        I've actually been on low-dose sertraline for a little over a year and feel amazingly better on it. The only way to describe it is, there's more me to go around, more capacity to handle life's myriad stupidities. I haven't had antibiotics since early teenagerhood though. Your speculation on there being a feedback loop involving dysregulated serotinergic signalling is something I'd been wondering about for a while too.

        --
        I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
        • (Score: 2) by krishnoid on Monday January 30 2023, @05:53AM

          by krishnoid (1156) on Monday January 30 2023, @05:53AM (#1289249)

          It was when I saw this info (from a different article on this site?) a while back that it looked like anything screwing with gut function could have a role. From the article I linked:

          The gut provides approximately 95% of total body serotonin, most of which exists in plasma. Although serotonin has intrinsic roles in the intestines and peripheral metabolism, it is capable of locally activating afferent nerve endings that are connected directly to the central nerve system.

        • (Score: 2) by Freeman on Monday January 30 2023, @03:05PM

          by Freeman (732) on Monday January 30 2023, @03:05PM (#1289282) Journal

          Oooff, I've had more antibiotics than I can shake a stick at. I've had regular upper-respiratory infections (Before the Pandemic). Some years more than others. I've never been on anti-depressants, but now I wonder how mood altering all of those antibiotics were. Certainly had my fair share of gut issues, too. Definitely not helped by the regular attempt at killing all the gut flora off when treating the upper-respiratory infections.

          When it comes down to it, not treating an infection with an antibiotic, isn't an option. You're more likely to die (immediate harm) from the infection than from some potential future self-harm or otherwise, due to depression. This is especially so, depending on the type of infection. For example, once you stop breathing (due to congestion or otherwise), you have a very few minutes to solve the problem. In the case of serious congestion as opposed to someone just has a piece of food lodged in their throat, it may be too late for anything to be done. Whereas the Heimlich Maneuver is quite useful for lodged/partially lodged items.

          --
          Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
        • (Score: 2) by Immerman on Monday January 30 2023, @08:34PM

          by Immerman (3985) on Monday January 30 2023, @08:34PM (#1289368)

          To be fair, you need "pre-biotic" food all the time or your gut microbiome will go out of whack anyway. So it's kinda like mentioning that you need to breathe - true, but only marginally relevant.

          I do make a point of eating lots of probiotic foods after a course of broad-spectrum antibiotics, seems to settle my gut down much more quickly, and there's likely other more subtle health benefits as well.

  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 30 2023, @12:29AM (2 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 30 2023, @12:29AM (#1289223)

    I was on some of these drugs in my late teens and early 20s. My experience was that the "side effects" were the primary effects. On one of these drugs, I skipped and then impulsively multiplied the dose to "make up for it" (yes, I was not in my right mind, duh!) which led to an overdose, the antidote for which was benadryl and several hours of disorientation from which I recovered. I think these drugs were responsible for the fact that several years ongoing, I'd turn my head and see discrete frames--an effect which amazingly went away, so my brain must have still been plastic enough to overcome it. I later went on to become a software engineer, drug free and am now 54 and still struggle with depression but will never take this shit again no matter how hard they push it. Even a little alcohol now and then (which I know is bad for me) is better than that shit.

    Fuck those drugs, seriously.

    • (Score: 2) by krishnoid on Monday January 30 2023, @06:04AM

      by krishnoid (1156) on Monday January 30 2023, @06:04AM (#1289250)

      I've posted this before, but I recommend watching "How to change your mind" on Netflix (and/or read the audio/book). It describes how Nixon started the war on drugs (in which psychedelics were kind of collateral damage) the year-ish you were born, and that as late as circa 2017, per-state decriminalization is enabling few-and-measured-dose psychedelic administration to re-enter the field as therapeutics for mood disorders. Here's Michael Pollan [youtu.be] talking about it with Trevor Noah.

    • (Score: 2) by Freeman on Monday January 30 2023, @03:14PM

      by Freeman (732) on Monday January 30 2023, @03:14PM (#1289285) Journal

      Generally, you can choose your own attitude. Sure, there are physical reasons why you don't get to choose how you feel at times. That doesn't mean you have to give in to the depression. There are proven ways that you can alter your own mood, if you are self-aware enough to note, "I'm feeling depressed", I should do something about it. Exercise gets those happy feelings going. https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/depression/in-depth/depression-and-exercise/art-20046495 [mayoclinic.org] Also, literally just doing things you enjoy can have a positive impact on your mood. https://www.healthline.com/health/depression/how-to-fight-depression#joy [healthline.com] In the event that you "don't feel like it", just get up and start moving. That in and of itself, can make such a serious impact on how well you get on. Also, just doing something can help take your mind off of X bad thing going in your life. There's a reason why the entertainment industry is massive. It gets your mind off everything and lets you do something you enjoy.

      --
      Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
  • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 31 2023, @02:34AM

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 31 2023, @02:34AM (#1289415)

    Farming practices are probably a far greater contributor to antibiotic resistance than antidepressant usage

    https://www.who.int/news/item/07-11-2017-stop-using-antibiotics-in-healthy-animals-to-prevent-the-spread-of-antibiotic-resistance [who.int]

    WHO strongly recommends an overall reduction in the use of all classes of medically important antibiotics in food-producing animals, including complete restriction of these antibiotics for growth promotion and disease prevention without diagnosis. Healthy animals should only receive antibiotics to prevent disease if it has been diagnosed in other animals in the same flock, herd, or fish population.

    https://archive.is/z2x3J [archive.is]

    New federal data released Tuesday shows that efforts in the United States to reduce unnecessary antibiotic use in livestock—a persistent generator of drug-resistant superbugs that can harm human health—have lost momentum, five years after the Obama administration imposed long-awaited rules to control misuse.

    https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/fact-sheets/2016/12/antibiotics-and-animal-agriculture-a-primer [pewtrusts.org]

    Antibiotics used in animal agriculture contribute to the threat of drug resistance. Although detailed information about antibiotic use in animals is lacking, available data show that around 70 percent of the total volume of all medically important antibiotics in the United States is sold for use on the farm.

    See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antibiotic_use_in_livestock [wikipedia.org]

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