The US Federal Trade Commission wants to ban non-compete agreements:
The US Federal Trade Commission (FTC) recently proposed a regulation banning employers from imposing non-compete "agreements" on their workers.
[...] The FTC summed up my feeling about non-compete clauses.
It called them "a widespread and often exploitative practice that suppresses wages, hampers innovation, and blocks entrepreneurs from starting new businesses." Thus, the Commission concluded, "By stopping this practice, the agency estimates that the new proposed rule could increase wages by nearly $300 billion per year and expand career opportunities for about 30 million Americans."
That, by the FTC's count, is one in five Americans. So it's not just tech or highly skilled jobs getting hit.
As the New York Times pointed out, it also includes sandwich makers, hair stylists, and summer camp counselors. So yes. Seriously, there are non-competes for teenagers working as counselors.
[...] Sure, there are reasonable exceptions. For example, if I leave your company, I have no problem agreeing that I won't reveal your secret sauce to a competitor or use it in my own business.
But the FTC isn't talking about getting rid of non-disclosure agreements (NDA)s — unless these NDAs are written so broadly that they act as de facto non-competes. That's a different and uglier story.
[...] While proprietary business information and technology secrets are what people often think about protecting with non-competes, that's often not the case.
Instead, it's all about making sure your workers can't leave. For example, the US fast food chain Jimmy John's used to forbid its sandwich makers from joining similar businesses within two miles of its stores for two years. The courts finally forced the company to drop that non-compete clause.
Ridiculous demands like that underline the real purpose of most non-compete agreements: keeping workers by hook or by crook for the least amount of pay.
[...] If you want happier, more productive staffers, don't handcuff them to your company with non-compete agreements. It never ends up well for anybody.
Have any of you been asked to sign an outrageous non-compete?
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 17, @06:26AM (14 children)
(Score: 5, Interesting) by Opportunist on Friday February 17, @11:58AM (12 children)
In the good old days, this was even a requirement for apprentices and journeymen (notice the journey in that name) if they wanted to be admitted to the guilds, they needed to show that they had learned from different masters and were in the employ of different people, usually also requiring in different towns, to be taken serious enough to become a master themselves and join the guilds.
(Score: 4, Informative) by RamiK on Friday February 17, @01:42PM (4 children)
That's probably wrong for England. As often mentioned when discussing the original rational behind copyright and patent terms, apprenticeship was a legally defined institute in common law (that was something between indebted servitude, slavery and non-competes):
( a quote of a quote of a quote... from the footnotes of https://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/2020-02/lester-zhu-auilr-v34n4.pdf [cato.org] (p.5) )
So, if my reading is right, an apprentice was bound to a specific master for 7 years in the sense that they'd have to leave the city/nation if they wanted to practice without their master's permission and before the term was up. Patents and copyright are multipliers on that. Non-competes are a "modern" (read: throwback) variation.
Things were likely different in different periods and places... But fundamentally, I believe the apprenticeship institute was always a form of bondage otherwise the master wouldn't be called a master.
compiling...
(Score: 5, Insightful) by canopic jug on Friday February 17, @02:06PM (1 child)
The word 'master' there is used in the context of the art or skill which they have mastered.
Money is not free speech. Elections should not be auctions.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by RamiK on Friday February 17, @07:06PM
That's the whole point: English society (at least as far back as Elizabethan times when it inherits the word from French/German/Latin in one order or the next) didn't distinguish skill mastery from the hierarchical position / owner-of-man so it was reflected in the English language. You can contrast this with how servant and slave were made separate due to how slaves of god (Church officials) and servants of the king (Government ministers) were: When the social status was clearly separate, a new word was required.
Etymology is effect. Not cause.
compiling...
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Opportunist on Friday February 17, @05:24PM (1 child)
Quite interesting, it was very different here on the continent. Journeymen worked for a rather moderate salary, while getting board and food from their master and were free, and often required, to move on when Spring arrives, to another town or even another state. There are many stories of how masters tried to keep their good journeymen by better treatment and even giving them the prospect of inheriting his shop (usually by virtue of marriage to the master's daughter), it's the staple of 17th and 18th century middle-class romantic literature and operetta).
(Score: 2) by RamiK on Friday February 17, @07:54PM
Again, it strongly depends on the time, place (and trade). The first paragraph here paints a fairly grim picture: https://books.google.com/books?id=MfrTvg1eMOIC&pg=PA166 [google.com] (fuller but (pay?)walled scan: https://www.academia.edu/21005082/Learning_on_the_Shop_Floor) [academia.edu]
A more positive take can be seen here around page 15/16 starting with:
( https://moodle.adaptland.it/pluginfile.php/53711/mod_data/content/172114/EconomicsofApprenticeship-revised-1oyshc9.pdf [adaptland.it] "Institutions and Apprenticeship" )
The experts aren't in agreement on the analysis and nuances but we can at least say it strongly depends on the when and where.
compiling...
(Score: 3, Interesting) by DannyB on Friday February 17, @03:18PM (6 children)
We don't have a software guild. (should we?)
One can show their proficiency by creating open source code for everyone to see what they can do. Even if it is sponsored by some company. Maybe there should be more of this?
And in the name of the lollipop guild, we wish to welcome you to munchkin land.
How often should I have my memory checked? I used to know but...
(Score: 3, Insightful) by HiThere on Friday February 17, @04:31PM (3 children)
That's a problem. We need the "skilled artisans" that the master craftsmen were, but we don't want the period of bondage that the apprentices were forced to endure. What we've got is "everyone's a journeyman". (Even if you're under a non-compete, the one holding you in bondage isn't a master of the craft.)
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by sjames on Saturday February 18, @01:18AM (2 children)
More to the point, employers refuse to hire anyone who needs to grow in to the job. In programming, people who did well on a general aptitude test were hired as a junior programmer where they would learn from the senior programmers until they were ready for promotion.
Today those with aptitude are expected to go into debt to pay for 4 years of education just to be considered for employment.
(Score: 2) by turgid on Saturday February 18, @01:25PM (1 child)
A university degree does not make you a competent coder or Software Engineer. It should give you a good grounding in all the important concepts to start you off on your career. Becoming competent and proficient takes many years of practise under the watchful eye of experts.
I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent [wikipedia.org].
(Score: 3, Insightful) by sjames on Saturday February 18, @05:56PM
I agree, it does not. It doesn't even assure that you will ever be any good. But for some reason, HR has enshrined it as the holy requirement even above actual experience.
And without the internal structure for mentoring and learning, many never get all that good. That's why there's so much crap software out there and why there are so many software shops that can't seem to produce hello world without a flavor of the month framework and 3 or 4 libraries.
(Score: 2) by Opportunist on Friday February 17, @05:27PM (1 child)
Nope, I was talking about the good old days, when crafts were organized in guilds who were eager to provide some territory protection to their members. Kinda like how ISPs work today, when you think about it.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Friday February 17, @06:21PM
We still have the Screen Actors Guild.
How often should I have my memory checked? I used to know but...
(Score: 5, Interesting) by JoeMerchant on Friday February 17, @12:56PM
Or, if you have any stones at all, you label such an agreement unconscionable and simply ignore it.
The only people who will devalue you after you do that are those who feel they need a non-compete agreement with you too.
Just after starting a new job (having relocated the family 1000 miles to do so) I was handed an over the top non employment for 10 years in any related industry agreement and I simply refused to sign. I got some verbal abuse from the CEO who complained "we all already signed this" to which I replied: "maybe those terms don't matter to you but they are unacceptable to me and my ability to provide for my family, either revise it to something that doesn't hurt me or forget it." They forgot it.
Later in that same town a company I worked for laid off the whole workforce then gave us outrageous "I promise never to say anything bad about the company, or sue the company, or disclose the existence of this agreement" things they wanted us to sign. "What am I getting in exchange for signing this?'. "Nothing.". Well, then it's not a valid contract to start with, but... I'm not signing anyway. Call me when you have a better offer, but know that I am not waiting for that call.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Opportunist on Friday February 17, @08:04AM (2 children)
They are already illegal in my country. The only thing legal is that I must not moonlight on the side while being in active employment. Which makes sense, it wouldn't be ok if I offered a customer to do it more cheaply if we cut out the middle man, i.e. my employer. That is fine. I also must not steal the customer database and try to poach the customers. That is also fine.
But if you fire me, and your customer decides that he liked my reporting style and was satisfied enough with me that he actively reaches out to me because he wants me to continue working for him, either freelance, by hiring my new employer instead of you or even hiring me as an employee himself, that is ALSO fine!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 17, @09:42AM (1 child)
Where i live, non-competes are legal, but they aren't really forceable to most people. I can see if you have a guy that knows your business inside out, that you have some year or two non-compete period. 99,9% of people don't know enough about the business, they might know enough to do the job on their own, but that's not what non-competes are for.
I believe i can moonlight, unless specifically forbidden on the contract, but my job is more industrial type of job. But i guess i should make sure i can, things could have changed.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Opportunist on Friday February 17, @11:55AM
I'm a security consultant, so technically moonlighting would be quite easily doable, so it's quite alright to have that in the contract. My employer wants me to work for him, that's what he pays me for. That's an agreement I can honor.
The moment you stop paying me is the moment I stop working for you. A non-compete is unilaterally unfair, because if I train someone and then get fired, I can't tell my employer either that he can't use the person that has my knowledge anymore, can I? Actually, that's what happens more often than not, doesn't it?
If you can use the information you got from me to replace me, I can use the information I got from you to replace you. Turnabout is fair game!
(Score: 3, Insightful) by turgid on Friday February 17, @08:57AM (5 children)
In the USA it seems that the Free Market is not so free and the Invisible Hand is tied up, at least when it applies to the little guy. I've heard stories about American companies coming to the UK and trying to pull such stunts but it just results in the good people leaving or not taking the job in the first place.
I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent [wikipedia.org].
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Opportunist on Friday February 17, @12:00PM (4 children)
All the invisible hand ever did to the little guy was to give him a fisting without lube.
(Score: 2) by HiThere on Friday February 17, @04:36PM (3 children)
That's not really true, it's just that that was the most common result. But after the plagues, the "invisible hand" killed serfdom. There are other instances.
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 2) by Opportunist on Friday February 17, @05:19PM
What killed serfdom is simply a lack of workforce and way higher mobility since nobody could track people's movement, especially people moving into towns because people in towns were hit the hardest (because that's what highly infectious diseases coupled with cramped, unsanitary living conditions generally produce), so there was plenty of room inside those towns now.
There was simply a lack of workforce, that's what killed serfdom in the long run.
We almost got the same now, just this time the owners are far better organized and agreed that this won't happen again.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by JoeMerchant on Friday February 17, @10:43PM (1 child)
Just watched a documentary on the October revolution, Lenin in Russia and all that. The invisible hand of WWI ended a lot of shit, including the Czars, who were arguably little better than Stalin.
Complicated, seemingly mostly decided by luck, and incredibly impactful to the entire world ever since. All hail the invisible hand!
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 19, @03:55AM
Meanwhile I kept writing my BS in the dark and still got it published.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Runaway1956 on Friday February 17, @10:17AM (8 children)
I've been known to draw a strike-through line in a contract, and initial it, to show that I will not honor that part of the contract. Super silly example:
I had to submit an "application" for electric service in my new home, 30 plus years ago. The "appliction" had a section on generators. Words to the effect, "I promise not to have any generators on my property." I was smart enough to understand that they prohibited hooking up a generator to the house, in such a fashion that it might electrocute electrical workers during a power outage. However, the wording was crap. Agreeing to that term, as written, would have precluded possession of ANY generator, for any purpose. I struck out that paragraph, and initialed it.
So, you're applying for a job? You strike out terms that you can't live with. You don't get the job? Oh well, you've done yourself a favor. You couldn't live with that particular portion of the contract, so you're still free to find a job with a better contract.
And, you will be surprised how often your objection is accepted, papers filed, and you get the job anyway.
Just remember, the time to negotiate that contract is before you are hired. You can't alter the contract in your favor after it is filed in your personnel record.
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 17, @10:48AM (5 children)
I've strike-thru too, and got turned down.
No biggie though. That company was so full of useless middle managers that it would have been damn near impossible to get anything done anyway.
The company was so paralyzed that eventually their customers found other entities that could get the job done. I ended up working for one of them, with a lot less stressful environment.
We all knew how to do what our customer wanted us to do, but I don't think a one of us could please that investment group that was so enamored with all their finesse in crafting all that litigious paperwork for us to sign.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by Opportunist on Friday February 17, @12:04PM (4 children)
I can one-up that one. I struck parts of the contract and got accepted. They simply didn't read their own contract anymore after I sign it.
How I know? Because they complained about me doing something the strike-through clause would have prevented. I asked them to show me that line in my contract, they gave me the template contract, I asked to be shown that line in MY contract ... next message I got came from their lawyer.
Fortunately, in my country, you have access to very cheap and very capable work-related lawyers (costs a bit of your income by default, some of that wonderful "socialism" we have here), I handed that to them and they got me quite a tidy sum of money.
Read contracts I give back to you. Just because you draft them doesn't mean I don't read them and sign them. I do read them. You should, too.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 17, @02:17PM (2 children)
> They simply didn't read their own contract anymore after I sign it.
When I strike out part of a contract, I also make sure to tell the sender that I made a change and make sure they understand it up front.
Your way, if I understand it correctly is to send back the contract with changes and no other notification or discussion. That would get me a bad reputation in my line of engineering work--and in my specialized field the "village" of people that do this kind of work isn't all that big.
(Score: 2) by Opportunist on Friday February 17, @05:16PM (1 child)
Actually I do notify them. Apparently nobody cares.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 17, @06:58PM
> Actually I do notify them. Apparently nobody cares.
Thanks for the followup. Sounds like we are on the same page ethically!
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Friday February 17, @10:45PM
One upping that: apparently my company lost my boss' signed agreements about everything. HR can be really sloppy some times, and it matters. He more or less retired on the job for 3 years while he looked for a better opportunity, it was hard to find but eventually he did.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 3, Interesting) by GloomMower on Friday February 17, @06:07PM (1 child)
I was working for a company that was getting bought. They wanted all the employees to sign an agreement before the sale could take place. It had stuff like, the new company owns anything you thought of during work hours or not since you worked there. I struck out a lot of the lines in that agreement.
I was surprised how many people just signed it, and it was difficult to find anyone else that had issues with the document.
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 17, @07:02PM
> I was surprised how many people just signed it
One possible conclusion? All those people who "just signed it" never had an original idea. Or, less harshly, an original idea worth keeping.