from the not-the-smartest-guys-in-the-room-anymore dept.
Self-driving truck startup Waabi may just be the first "AI" company to fully swallow their pride and ask some real experts for advice. According to https://www.autonomousvehicleinternational.com/news/trucks/waabi-launches-million-mile-driver-advisory-board.html the company will:
In a claimed industry first, Waabi has launched a Million Mile Driver Advisory Board to enhance transparency and collaboration between the company and some of the most skilled truck drivers in North America.
Waabi will bring together drivers who have completed more than one million safe miles during their careers, to share insights and best practices with the company to ensure it can provide a safe future for autonomous trucking.
To your humble AC, this seems like quite a turnaround, compared to the intro on their website, https://waabi.ai/
Ready for trucking, now
The Waabi Driver is the next generation of autonomous trucking technology. It can be trained as a whole, make interpretable decisions, apply learned skills to unseen scenarios and geographies, and adapt to any hardware configuration. The Waabi Driver is a complete solution designed for factory-level OEM integration, large-scale commercialization, and safe deployment.
Will Waabi get any takers, or are the truckers too smart to (figuratively) cut their own throats by speeding up the use of driverless trucks?
It would be funny if they got some of these guys, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hScdDy7Ateg&t=50s [Convoy 1975]
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 27, @06:33PM (5 children)
Just saw this news item,
https://www.motortrend.com/news/chinese-ev-byd-self-driving-cars-impossible [motortrend.com]
So Waabi realizes they aren't getting to their desired result with their normal techie staff and have to go to some actual truck drivers as an "advisory board". And now we see that BYD (a large Chinese auto company) has spent some money on self driving and concluded that it's a dead end, at least for the near future.
After all the self-driving hype, maybe this is how it ends? "Driver assistance" gets better, but nothing approaches Level 4/5 except in specific geo fenced areas.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by SomeRandomGeek on Thursday April 27, @07:38PM (3 children)
Really? Some minor players spout some FUD and you think self driving is over? I'll believe self driving is over when we see Waymo say it's impossible and throw in the towel. That seems highly unlikely, though. They are already doing full self driving in San Francisco. If they wanted to, they could hoist the "Mission Accomplished" flag now. It's just better marketing for them to be humble and cautious than loud and proud.
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 27, @08:49PM (2 children)
BYD is not a minor player, see https://insideevs.com/news/651548/byd-plugin-car-sales-january2023/ [insideevs.com]
As well as cars they also sell electric buses and trucks, https://en.byd.com/ [byd.com]
(Score: 2, Troll) by SomeRandomGeek on Thursday April 27, @09:01PM (1 child)
BYD is not a minor player in the car business, but they are a minor player in the self driving car business.
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 27, @09:36PM
Perhaps, but according to this: https://usw.org/blog/2019/why-chinas-crrc-and-byd-pose-such-a-serious-threat-to-the-united-states [usw.org]
If true and BYD is effectively part of the CCP, then they have very deep pockets indeed (China GDP about 100x larger than Google)...and yet BYD appear to have given up on self-driving.
(Score: 4, Funny) by DannyB on Thursday April 27, @08:23PM
Guy got laid off from the coal mine because green energy got cheaper than coal.
So he worked at the auto plant and then got laid off because robots cost half as much and were three times as smart but did not want to kill all humans.
So he became a truck driver because those trucks ain't goin' to drive themselves.
How often should I have my memory checked? I used to know but...
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Rosco P. Coltrane on Thursday April 27, @07:57PM (7 children)
Those experienced truckers are being paid to help put all the other drivers out of their job. I know it's unavoidable and it will happen anyway, but I don't know how they sleep at night.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by GloomMower on Thursday April 27, @09:09PM (5 children)
What about the AI engineers, should they be able to sleep, or just the truck drivers that shouldn't?
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Rosco P. Coltrane on Friday April 28, @04:49AM (4 children)
Well, it's like the chain of people who led to the senseless death of millions in Hiroshima:
- Paul Tibbets [wikipedia.org] (the pilot of Enola Gay) should have felt guilt but didn't because soldiers are brainwashed into rationalizing the act of killing. But by his own admission, he had "feelings" about the horror he was going to unleash. When military personels have feelings before doing something, you know even they know it's bad.
- One step removed, the Manhattan Project scientists - who were not military - were wracked with guilt [newsweek.com]. They didn't directly kill 75,000 people, but they created the device that did. They didn't think about it at all during the development of the bomb because they were too busy solving the technical aspect of it, they were elated when it worked, and immediately after, the reality of what they created hit them.
- And then further down the chain, all the scientists who ushered in the atomic age felt pangs of guilt and shame too, but less so as they were less directly connected to the deed. Einstein certainly didn't feel great about it [historynet.com].
AI today is at the Manhattan Project development stage. People are excited by the technology and gleefully trying to deploy it everywhere in the naive belief that this will create a brave new world of greatness. When the societal devastation AI will cause has occurred, I expect those directly responsible too will feel remorse. At least they will if they have any capacity for empathy with the people whose jobs AI will displace and cast into poverty.
The experienced truckers of the article are the Paul Tibbets of that particular disaster in the making - and boy they'd better hide when all their fellow drivers go looking for them after they're fired - and the engineers at Waabi, Waymo and others are the Manhattan Project scientists who will realize what they've done after it's done.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday April 28, @10:37AM
> People are excited by the technology and gleefully trying to deploy it everywhere in the naive belief that this will create a brave new world of greatness.
Entrepreneurs are excited by the technology and gleefully trying to deploy it everywhere with hopes that this will let them sell their startup to big tech for $B, and managers at more traditional companies are in it for the bonus that comes from "streamlining" their operations.
ftfy
ps. I agreed with most of the rest of your post.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by deimtee on Friday April 28, @12:04PM (2 children)
There's a difference though. Tha A-Bomb (so far at least) is a purely destructive device that killed a lot of people.
The people making AI are more akin to Henry Ford and the rest of the early car makers. Should they feel guilty for putting buggy makers and stablehands out of a job?
No problem is insoluble, but at Ksp = 2.943×10−25 Mercury Sulphide comes close.
(Score: 2) by Rosco P. Coltrane on Friday April 28, @01:36PM (1 child)
There isn't as much difference as you think: in 1945, the atomic bomb was seen as a war-ending device that had the unfortunate side effect of vaporizing as many innocent civilians in an instant as an entire night's bombing raid over any German city.
Proponents of AI today see it as progress with massive unemployment as an unfortunate side effect.
The big difference between the AI disruption and previous job-destroying technological advances is that this one will affect so many people so hard at the same time that I don't think society will recover from the disruption peacefully this time around.
(Score: 2) by deimtee on Friday April 28, @11:46PM
I agree, but I pretty much already had this discussion with khallow:
https://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?noupdate=1&sid=54910&page=1&cid=1302208#commentwrap [soylentnews.org]
No problem is insoluble, but at Ksp = 2.943×10−25 Mercury Sulphide comes close.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday April 28, @02:05AM
Maybe they figure they would sleep better at night if there were better AIs driving those trucks since it would be safer for their loved ones and others? Apparently there are trucking companies putting many inexperienced human truck drivers on the road.
I suspect there are lots of safety and process related things experienced truckers know and do that might be non-obvious to non truck drivers trying to make truck driving AIs.
Also there can be some things that AI trucks/vehicles could do better that human drivers can't - you could add sensors to reduce blindspots. You could even add sensors below the truck so that you can see further from under vehicles in some scenarios (flat road, no slopes and humps). This works better for shorter vehicles than trucks since shorter vehicles can't peek over taller vehicles, but they can peek under with suitable sensors.
FWIW AI trucks do waiting for hours better than humans... No need to poop or pee.
(Score: 2) by DadaDoofy on Thursday April 27, @08:45PM (1 child)
I remember when employees who's jobs were outsourced had to suffer the indignity of training their replacements. In they case, they are asking people to volunteer to do the same. Good luck with that. LOL
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 27, @08:58PM
Looks like the drivers have already been recruited, here's a short video by Waabi, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mr65KUUHw8Y [youtube.com] with short clips/interviews with the advisory panel members (truck drivers).
(Score: 3, Insightful) by istartedi on Thursday April 27, @09:05PM (7 children)
That one tune probably sold more CB radios than Radio Shak.
From about the same time, Willin' [youtube.com]
I was a kid back then, fly on the wall for the era. People who got in to trucking, followed the call of the open road because of all that are retiring now. That's why they're looking to AI. Huge 'boomer generation, and young people don't want to do it. They've seen what weed, wine and time do to your body in a truck and they figure it'll be obsolete anyway.
Appended to the end of comments you post. Max: 120 chars.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by RS3 on Thursday April 27, @09:53PM (6 children)
Sadly you have some good points there. Add in the fact that, in my humble scant observation, the quality of truck driving is going downhill, and I wouldn't want to get into truck driving either. Worsening driving is probably due to the huge increase of lorry traffic, which has been increasing the demand for drivers and lowering the bar of what's acceptable.
I wish we'd use more rail transport. In my lifetime I've seen a great reduction in rail freight and rail lines being abandoned and turned into trails. Rail transport has its problems, but maybe if we made it a higher priority, raised the safety requirements, it would solve a lot of problems, including to a large degree CO2 emissions.
(Score: 2) by istartedi on Thursday April 27, @10:47PM (5 children)
Based on your use of the word "lorry", I'm assuming that you're in the UK. I don't have stats up in front of me, but I haven't heard of US freight rail mileage decreasing, just that it's not well maintained as certain recent headlines attest. The big complaint in the US amongst some people is that there's not enough passenger rail; but I'm given to understand that's not a problem in the UK--or is it?
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(Score: 2) by RS3 on Friday April 28, @01:20AM (4 children)
Sorry, I'm USAian. I like "lorry"- seems universally understood, nice and concise, rather than "tractor-trailer".
I've first-hand witnessed a huge increase in lorry traffic, and many local rail lines shut down and removed. Here and there over the years I've read stories saying that rail traffic has been decreasing. It's still used for very large shipments, but again, IMHO, there is far too much "lorry" traffic.
And now there are Amazon vans everywhere, and they're always blocking traffic, and pulling out in front of you, forcing you to hit your brakes, which is illegal, but nobody is enforcing it.
Long ago lorry trailers were limited to 40' length, and are now 53'. Weight limits are hugely increased too. Not sure when all that happened.
Far too many lorry accidents in the news, especially where they go too fast around a curve or turn.
I think they try to minimize driving during rush hour times, but try driving at late night and you'll see it's mostly huge lorries out on major highways and interstates.
(Score: 2, Informative) by Runaway1956 on Friday April 28, @01:38AM
Yes, of course. Take Chicago, for instance. Daylight hours, it can take 4 hours or more to drive across the Chicago metro area. After 10:00 PM, you can maintain 80 mph from Indiana up to the Wisconsin state line. No one wants to drive through a major city during the day if they can avoid it.
That said, if I just have to drive through a major city during the day, I'll take Los Angeles. And, my very last pick would be Atlanta. In all cases, it's better to just park until sundown, then haul ass for wherever you need to go.
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 3, Funny) by Reziac on Friday April 28, @02:32AM (2 children)
For real fun with lorries, try I-80 through Wyoming in winter.
The locals *did* tell 'em not to build the interstate where they did....
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 3, Funny) by istartedi on Friday April 28, @04:06PM (1 child)
Forget Winter. I drove I-80 through Wyoming in Fall. Once. There was just an inch of snow, maybe 2 at most; but it was very cold and blowing. At one point, a passing truck flung some up on my windshield and it instantly froze, temporarily blinding me. When I pulled in to a rest area the snow had drifted there, effectively making it 6 inches and making me think I might get stuck if I wasn't careful. Fortunately I didn't, and after something like 400 miles of driving through that wasteland I finally reached Cheyenne and I was like.. that's it? That's the "city" I've been counting down to reach? It's barely even a town. This is the consequence of having a state bigger then a lot of countries with the population of a small city. Almost all of that highway is just miles of nothing in nowhere. At least it's not flat; but I'll never do it again if there's any other reasonable option. It's the fastest route, but there are more important things than getting there soon. Of course there are beautiful places in Wyoming, but I-80 is not one of them.
Appended to the end of comments you post. Max: 120 chars.
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Friday April 28, @07:14PM
Yup, you have definitely been to Wyoming, where they do not believe in snowplows.
That chain sticking straight out sideways? that's a Wyoming wind sock.
Greets from one state to the north. :)
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by MIRV888 on Thursday April 27, @09:51PM (1 child)
for autonomous vehicles.
Personal vehicles are great or whatever, but professional truckers are expensive.
Eliminating another well paying blue color trade is just the savings of doing business.
The economics of our society are going to need to change as entire classes of employees are progressively replaced outright.
(Score: 2) by RS3 on Friday April 28, @01:34AM
Econ is an extremely complex study, and sometimes interesting. I tried to study it, but there are so many interacting variables that it becomes almost impossible. Another job for AI!
Over the many years we've seen machine power and automation reducing the number of humans needed to do a job. Society / economy does adjust on the large scale, but many people lose their entire lifestyle. I've been to towns that have become ghost towns due to manufacturing closing down and moving to a more automated place.
One factor is that it's often much more expensive to retrofit an older factory than to just move to another new location, especially "offshore". The rich get richer and the poor get poorer.
One adjustment that's been made over the many years is to reduce the standard workweek. Society just doesn't need the total worker hours if everything gets more efficient. The problem is in figuring out how everyone can get a reasonable minimum amount of decent paying work (I know, I said a lot there...)
(Score: 2) by ElizabethGreene on Saturday April 29, @02:53AM (1 child)
As a former truck mechanic my advice would be to avoid the Northeast at all times, stay off the road and/or outside major metros from 6 a.m. to 7 p.m., stay in the south in the winter, stay in the north in the summer, and check your tires three times more often than you think you should.
That last bit leads to something I worry about. You can use tire pressure monitoring to make sure the tires have air, but they can't tell you if a wheel seal has gone out. I fear it will keep rolling along until the bearing seize, lock the tires, and the tires grind through. A butsted spring, popped airbag, clucking equalizer, or failed lights are all things a human driver would notice but can an AI?
The backup system for catching this with meat drivers is the attentive eyes of the highway patrol when you roll through a weigh station. That's not as likely now, as most major carriers have telemetry units that allow drivers to bypass them.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 29, @03:21AM
> I fear it will keep rolling along until the bearing seize, lock the tires, and the tires grind through.
Once this happens a few times (or just once, followed by a large lawsuit), the next bit of instrumentation could be cheap cameras aimed at the wheels & suspension parts. Image recognition of problems should be easy, if the image changes more than a little bit (when hitting bumps) it's time to get the truck stopped and inspected.
Jumping to the thread about the Japanese moon lander, did you ever hear back from the Lunar satellite camera group? Can/have they imaged the landing zone where something went wrong?