Arthur T Knackerbracket has processed the following story:
An EV from Chinese manufacturer Nio will soon go on sale with a "semi-solid state" 150kWh battery (140kWh usable) that's the largest in any passenger car, Car News China reported. To show [how] much range that will deliver, Nio CEO William Li drove a prototype version of the ET7 1,044km (650 miles) in 14 hours, a distance surpassing many gas-powered vehicles.
The test was run in relatively cool temperatures (between 28 – 54 F) and livestreamed. Driving was done mainly in semi-autonomous (or Navigate-on-Pilot+, as Nio calls it), and speed-limited to 90 km/h (56 MPH). The average speed was 83.9 km/h (a respectable 52.4 MPH), with a travel time of 12.4 hours excluding stops.
"The completion of this endurance challenge proves the product power of the 150kWh ultra-long endurance battery pack," said Li in a Weibo post (Google translation). "More importantly, all models on sale can be flexibly upgraded to 150kWh batteries through the Nio battery swap system."
In fact, the ET7's 150kWh battery will only be available on a lease separate from the car, much as we've seen with some cars sold in Europe. Previously, the company said that the battery alone would cost as much as an entire car (the company's entry-level ET5 EV), or around $42,000.
[...] Nio is a luxury EV manufacturer in China that offers vehicles without a battery, letting you sign up to a battery-as-a-service (BAAS) monthly subscription. That service also allows you to swap out your battery at any time for a larger one.
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Automakers accelerating release of upgraded models, unlike typical 5-year cycle for gasoline cars; Hyundai introduces updated Ioniq 5, and BYD will soon unveil refreshed SEAL; how will this impact used car market?
In recent weeks, two refreshed car models have been launched: Hyundai's Ioniq 5 and BYD's SEAL. Both models, introduced in 2021 and 2022 respectively, are receiving significant updates ahead of the typical five-year facelift cycle. This global automotive industry standard generally involves cosmetic upgrades to keep cars relevant.
However, these updates are more than just aesthetic. The Hyundai Ioniq 5 now features a substantial battery upgrade, increasing from 72.6 kWh to 84 kWh. This enhancement boosts the top model's range from 480 km to over 550 km. Other upgrades include new wheel designs and interior materials, but the major improvements lie beneath the surface.
[...] These updates reflect a broader trend among electric vehicle (EV) manufacturers, who have announced major enhancements to existing models. Unlike mid-life upgrades in gasoline cars, which often focus on superficial enhancements like sound systems and wheel designs, EV upgrades are core technological improvements. This trend is driven by several factors.
[...] Recent trends in the used EV market show that the introduction of significantly upgraded models or superior competing models can deter buyers unless substantial discounts are offered. The new Ioniq 5's increased range and the SEAL's faster charging capabilities could negatively affect the resale value of older models.
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- Why are All the EVs so Expensive?
(Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 21 2023, @02:37AM (2 children)
Nio is a luxury EV manufacturer in China
They should be able to power the entire fleet from Mao spining in his grave.
(Score: 3, Informative) by ikanreed on Thursday December 21 2023, @04:10PM (1 child)
Mao didn't hate luxuries. He hated a lot of things he probably shouldn't have: modern physics, science-based medicine, birds. But luxuries being available to the former (literal) peasants that made up the majority of his constituents was not one.
It's not like China skimps on the transit for poorer people, they built out absolutely unimaginable quantity of light rail, buses, and intercity high-speed rail.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 21 2023, @04:18PM
> It's not like China skimps on the transit for poorer people ...
Calling you on that, they've also made some boneheaded (imo) moves. See for example the 1998 bicycle ban on some roads in Beijing "to make room for cars",
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1998-oct-27-mn-36621-story.html [latimes.com]
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 21 2023, @03:02AM (4 children)
My "commute" before I convinced my SO to move in with me...was almost exactly 1000 miles, nearly all freeway. I made that run a few dozen times, worked out route details around a big city in the middle and often made it in 16 hours. That's 62.5 mph including a few gas & pee stops. Sometimes with the heater cranked up, other times with AC cooling.
My car was a nice 2001 midsize that I bought used, 3 years old, just off lease with 35K miles...for USD $10,000. Trip mileage was 26-28 mpg (US gallons) cruising at 70+ most of the time to keep the average speed up.
Here's someone in China who bought a Nio ET7 (car mentioned in tfa), https://carnewschina.com/2022/11/19/i-bought-my-nio-et7-three-months-ago-and-here-is-all-you-should-know/ [carnewschina.com]
(Score: 3, Funny) by Username on Thursday December 21 2023, @03:22AM (3 children)
> was almost exactly 1000 miles
I'd just find someone local. That's too much. Way too much. But, hey, at least you didn't walk 500, then 500 more.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 21 2023, @04:32AM (2 children)
I managed to make lemonade from the lemons (the lemon being the 1000 mile "commute"). I'm self employed and once I got there I stayed for a few weeks at a time. Went to a couple of professional society meetings and all of a sudden I had a couple of interesting jobs I could do while I was there. Also the internet was good enough back then that I kept up with my regular customers with little interruption.
A BEV like the sort available now would certainly have turned that run into a two day trip with charging somewhere in the middle, probably multiple charging stops since I would have been going faster.
(Score: 2) by number11 on Thursday December 21 2023, @05:19PM (1 child)
With the current crop of BEV available in the US, yes, it would have extended the duration of your trip. But with the Nio and its modular batteries, you could have swapped batteries in about 20 minutes, once (or twice, if you weren't going to drive faster than 55mph). Pretty much as long as your consciousness and pee bottle could hold out. Of course, that's still too far & long to be safely driving without a break, but I've done it with a couple hours nap at a rest stop.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 22 2023, @02:44AM
Here's one take on Nio battery swapping - https://electrek.co/2023/10/09/nio-completes-30-million-global-battery-swaps-proving-viability/ [electrek.co] So far all the stations are in China and Europe, and they are adding a lot more. Will be interesting to watch and see if this is financially viable...in a few years when they have to start making money with this big investment.
If I could get that long range Nio (it's not available yet, and it's expensive) AND if it was available in USA, AND if there just happened to be battery swap stations at the third points of my 1000 mile trip (those places are in a lightly populated farming regions)...then, yes your point is valid. It wouldn't be a one-stop trip because "I can't drive 55" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvV3nn_de2k [youtube.com] Getting run over by normal speed traffic is not a good way to drive on the interstate.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Username on Thursday December 21 2023, @03:20AM (5 children)
> 650 miles in 14 hours, a distance surpassing many gas-powered vehicles.
I drive like 85mph on the freeway, and takes about 10 minutes to fill at a gas station along the way. That's like, what, eight hours for 650 miles? Not sure what gas power vehicles they're comparing with. Maybe a ship? Jeremy Clarkson's lamborghini farm tractor?
$42,000 for a battery, and the price for the car is even more than that. How long does this battery last? I understand most people that buy EVs never do maintenance on them and treat them as disposable toys. Just get a new one every four years, right? But how feasible would this be for an average person to upkeep something this expensive?
I am thinking 42k, with 50% of the cells needing to be replaced in three to four years. So $20,000 worth of cells for the rebuild. Then the labor to take the battery pack apart. I know most battery packs from drills and bicycles are spot welded together. I have no idea how many cells are in this thing, but labor cannot be cheap. Total guess but, 2k. Also the motor maintenance, with brushes, bearings and magnet wire at an unknown interval. Probably, what $250? Then there is the labor on the usual car parts like tires, rotors, brakes, gearboxes, ac compressors, heaters, hub bearings and headlights, probably about $500 a year.
So about $6k usd a year to keep this thing in top shape? Wonder how much it costs to rent their batteries. Cannot be cheaper considering they need to turn a profit, so there will be margin above cost, and the eventual end of life with forced upgrades. I guess the cheapest options is to just leave the bad cells in, and have the good cells constantly be charging the bad cells. That sort of nonsense though. Losing half your charge in 10 minutes of driving.
In review, their only innovation is a larger battery pack, without addressing any of the main EV sustainability problems.
(Score: 2, Informative) by Runaway1956 on Thursday December 21 2023, @03:38AM (3 children)
The whole point of the article is, they are bragging on the range, not the speed. They went 650 miles without a fillup/recharge. Most privately owned vehicles have a range of 275 up to maybe 350 miles, per fillup.
I think the point of the speed was, that it was governed at a max speed of 52 mph, probably because that is where they get the best efficiency. I suppose you could drive faster, if you're willing to sacrifice some range. Most of that sacrifice would be due to wind resistance, I imagine.
I'm with you on the rest of your post - this is just too expensive for Average Joe. Especially in today's world, where everyone has a phone, cars are entirely optional.
We're gonna be able to vacation in Gaza, Cuba, Venezuela, Iran and maybe Minnesota soon. Incredible times.
(Score: 4, Informative) by mhajicek on Thursday December 21 2023, @06:10AM (1 child)
650 miles over 14 hours is an average of 46.4mph. drag increases with the square of speed, iirc, so going slower makes it a lot easier to be efficient.
The spacelike surfaces of time foliations can have a cusp at the surface of discontinuity. - P. Hajicek
(Score: 3, Touché) by VLM on Thursday December 21 2023, @01:15PM
How many people with $100K to drop on a super expensive car have always dreamed of never driving above 45 MPH?
(Score: 2) by number11 on Thursday December 21 2023, @05:30PM
Once the infrastructure is available, a battery swap takes 10 minutes. Low battery? Swap it for a full one. But also, cost is a reason why people lease the batteries, not buy them. (Not sure private ownership is a good match for battery swapping.) The OEM can presumably rebuild batteries far more efficiently than a shade-tree mechanic.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by RS3 on Thursday December 21 2023, @05:45AM
Not definitive nor authoritative, but AFAIK most EV motors are brushless. Generally advanced types of "asynchronous induction" motors. Some having permanent-magnet rotors, and a few designs using brushes to power electromagnet rotors. Probably pretty easy to replace the brushes in those designs. Windings should last a very long time. There's generally temperature sensing and overheat protection in EVs. Sure, bearings can and do fail, but hopefully will last many times longer than the batteries.
https://www.arenaev.com/different_types_of_electric_motors_used_in_evs-news-214.php [arenaev.com]
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a39493798/ev-motors-explained/ [caranddriver.com]
(Score: 5, Interesting) by krishnoid on Thursday December 21 2023, @06:05AM
It's pretty cool [youtu.be] how the stations are built, and rely on self-driving to position the car, after which the swap mechanism does its thing.
(Score: 2) by darkfeline on Thursday December 21 2023, @08:36AM
In related news, I have a bridge to sell you that is definitely not made from trash and condoms. We made sure to give it a fresh coat of paint for the promo pictures.
There's a reason the informed in China buy Teslas (or tried to, before and despite the obstacles created by the government).
https://youtu.be/ni6Aq_oOJHs [youtu.be]
https://youtu.be/yOA7qKMcjcE [youtu.be]
Join the SDF Public Access UNIX System today!
(Score: 1) by pTamok on Thursday December 21 2023, @09:46AM
Semi solid-state (whatever that means), but hopefully less inflammable organic electrolyte, and 150 kWh that 'fits' in to a (large) car.
Battery technology is improving. Perhaps this large (not mass) roll-out will find some fatal flaws, who knows - but battery capacities are still increasing, and idea of being able to occasionally upgrade the battery is nice. I understand that there are many benefits to making the battery structural, so it can't be swapped out, but I like the idea of being able to replace a battery easily without needing to rebuild the car, and it makes the resale value better, because you are less worried about buying a car in good mechanical shape with a worn-out battery that is difficult/expensive/well-nigh impossible to replace.
In principle, a replaceable battery also might allow you to replace the battery with a better one with different chemistry if it comes along. That's a bit unlikely, but one can but hope.
There was a group that did a technology demonstrator retrofitting battery that had twice thrice as much capacity as the original in the original Volkswagen e-Golf. Unfortunately not available commercially (and probably too expensive), but it has/had a lot of e-Golf owners wanting to buy it. VW themselves did come out with a newer e-Golf model with higher capacity (I think 50%), but no programme to allow owners of old cars to simply swap the battery.
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/this-startup-nearly-tripled-the-vw-e-golfs-battery-capacity/ [cnet.com]
As for battery capacity for road tips, the recommendation is that people should take a minimum of a 15 minute break every 2 hours, and a total of 45 minutes per 4-and-a-half hours of driving; and not drive for more than 8 hours. Assuming you drive at 70 mph, you need a usable* range of 140 miles, and the ability to add 140 miles of charge in 15 minutes. The 250 kW chargers do that. Of course, there needs to be good availability of 250kW chargers, and we are nowhere near they, yet. And maybe never will be. It is a lot easier to put a fossil-fuel station in the back-end of nowhere than a 250kW charger.
* It shortens the battery life to go to the extremes of charge and discharge. If you don't care about that, you can use a smaller capacity battery, but most batteries have a 'sweet range of charge' from roughly 30% to 80%, so if your battery gives your car a range of 300 miles, and you charge/discharge between 30% and 80%, it will (a) charge faster (the last 20% takes longer if you go all the way up to 100%) and (b) last longer.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by VLM on Thursday December 21 2023, @12:40PM (3 children)
The marketing problem with selling $100K+ EVs with ridiculous range like this is people who can afford $100K+ cars, heck, people who can afford only $50K+ cars, would NEVER, EVER, subject themselves to sitting in a car for 14 hours or 650 miles.
The people who can afford $50K+ cars would buy a plane ticket, possibly use miles to get first class, possibly just pay 1st class, and the people who own cars that cost as much as some houses would have their secretary charter a private jet or at least handle all the travel ticketing arrangements.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Thursday December 21 2023, @12:58PM
I can't speak for the rest of the world, but here in the US, many people with expensive toys can't afford them. That damned credit economy suckers people into buying things they really can't afford. Those toys are status symbols, and damned fools go into debt to obtain them. There's a lot to be said for allowing people to think that you are poor, or dirt poor, or even poorer than that - while remaining out of debt.
We're gonna be able to vacation in Gaza, Cuba, Venezuela, Iran and maybe Minnesota soon. Incredible times.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 21 2023, @05:24PM
Yeah. If I were in China and rich I might still use the train for such a journey (buy more than one seat if you want). I can stand up, stretch, walk, sleep, use the toilet, etc: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2SY-xN3sd8 [youtube.com]
If I were very rich, private plane maybe?
For station/airport to destination I'd use those "party buses" with a toilet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LalGaALK-j8 [youtube.com]
Then I could get entertainment and "massages" by "talented and skilled professionals". The journey is the reward... 😏
Seriously, if I'm very rich and going to spend significant time traveling from point A to B, I would prefer something a lot more comfortable and flexible than a car. Spending hours sitting a car would feel like a waste of my time, better to spend hours in one of my party buses.
I guess I'm not a car guy. Those who love cars would probably enjoy spending hours in a car.
(Score: 2) by ChrisMaple on Saturday December 23 2023, @03:04AM
Drive? That's what the chauffeur does. If a rich person isn't driving for pleasure, he's wasting time that could be spent working, sleeping, or sight-seeing.