from the but-but-but-the-fancy-brochure-said dept.
CNN Reports: https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/11/business/hertz-tesla-selling/index.html
Hertz, which has made a big push into electric vehicles in recent years, has decided it's time to cut back. The company will sell off a third of its electric fleet, totaling roughly 20,000 vehicles, and use the money they bring to purchase more gasoline powered vehicles.
Electric vehicles have been hurting Hertz's financials, executives have said, because, despite costing less to maintain, they have higher damage-repair costs and, also, higher depreciation.
"[C]ollision and damage repairs on an EV can often run about twice that associated with a comparable combustion engine vehicle," Hertz CEO Stephen Scherr said in a recent analyst call.
And EV price declines in the new car market have pushed down the resale value of Hertz's used EV rental cars.
[...] For rental car companies like Hertz, which sell lots of vehicles in the used car market, depreciation has a big impact on their business, and is a major factor when deciding which cars to have in their fleets.
SoylentNews previously reported when Hertz was expanding their EV fleet.
Related Stories
Hertz to purchase 175,000 General Motors EVs over the next five years:
Hertz is once again growing its EV fleet, announcing Tuesday that it has struck a deal with General Motors to purchase 175,000 electric vehicles from the automaker's Chevrolet, Buick, GMC, Cadillac and BrightDrop brands over the next five years. Customers will see the first offerings, namely the Chevrolet Bolt EV and Bolt EUV, arrive on Hertz lots beginning in the first quarter next year.
The deal, which runs through 2027, will bring a wide variety of models to Hertz's growing EV herd. Between now and 2027, the rental company expects its customers to drive about 8 billion miles in said EVs, preventing an estimated 3.5 million metric tons of carbon dioxide from being released. Hertz plans to convert a quarter of its rental fleet to battery electric by 2024.
[...] For folks who are already in line, having ordered a GM EV and are waiting on delivery, don't fret. This deal with Hertz shouldn't impact your existing delivery date. "Our first priority is delivering vehicles to customers holding reservations," a GM rep told Engadget via email Tuesday. "GM is installing capacity to meet demand from all customers, with annual capacity in North America rising to more than one million units in 2025."
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 31 2024, @11:52AM (2 children)
A co-worker travels on business frequently and for the last couple of years has been requesting electric cars for his rental. He normally drives these rentals much less than their range, and can usually find someplace to plug them in and return fairly well charged (which, iirc, is what Hertz requests).
Recently he got to an airport and the Hertz manager said that they did have a Tesla 3 but they couldn't rent it to him. It had been brought back with 100 miles remaining and would take hours to charge up on their charging station. My co-worker said that he was only going to be driving 15 or 20 miles and 100 would be plenty...but no dice, Hertz wouldn't rent that car. They rented him an ICE SUV instead.
I wonder how often this happens--an asset (car in the rental fleet) that can't be rented to a willing customer because of the time it takes to charge?
Related question, did Hertz consider this when making the decision to go electric in a big way, or is this the kind of thing that gets pulled out of the data after the fact?
(Score: 5, Insightful) by ledow on Wednesday January 31 2024, @12:43PM
It's definitely a factor, not sure if it's the main one but probably quite up there on the list.
Customer brings back an empty ICE car, it takes your guys about 10 minutes to get it into a rentable state again (and your fees for doing that cover all the costs of driving it to a fuel station and refuelling it).
Customer brings back a dead electric car, you just have to wait X hours for it to charge.
That means more storage space required, less vehicles available to rent, etc.
And I bet that most Hertz locations didn't have enough full-speed chargers, in general.
And what if the reason it's returned dead is because the local area doesn't have many chargers? That's hardly fair, if you've given them that car to rent in such an area.
(Score: 2) by mcgrew on Friday February 02 2024, @08:25PM
It shows the cluelessness of CEOs and boards of directors. Tesla? You're going to equip your fleet with vehicles from one of the most hated people on Earth? The Nazimobile isn't the only EV, you know.
If I was renting cars, I would have a fast charger or two installed and charge a little more than most fast chargers. My Hyundai is said to charge in 18 minutes, but I charge it from the 110v outlet on the house by the driveway, there's no hurry.
I suspect that this article I haven't read is one of the anti-EV articles, many disguised as pro-EV but damning with faint praise. This one is clearly anti-EV.
The car magazines and others like CNN who automobile manufacturers, mechanics, auto parts stores, and oil companies advertise in aren't about to bite the hand that feeds them by being honest about EVs. The EV is to a piston car what a Model T was to a horse. The last buggy manufacturer was Studebaker.
What happened a century ago is happening again.
A Black, Hispanic, or Muslim voting for Trump is like a Jew voting for Hitler
(Score: 2) by VLM on Wednesday January 31 2024, @12:42PM (5 children)
Google implies their USA total fleet is a bit over 425K vehicles, which seems insane, more than 1% of the US population. Do that many people rent cars?
Anyway from a business process standpoint is it "worth it" for the greenwashing advertisements, to have about 15% of your cars be weird process exceptions?
There are business process issues where an EV-only company could have chargers at every parking spot, maybe locate their lots where there is good electrical infrastructure, etc.
Another thing to consider: When I've needed to rent a car I've REALLY needed to rent a car, like right now. I've never shopped around for a "status symbol" rental, I'm just tired after a long day of travel or dropped off my car to be fixed or "something" and I just need a rental. I don't think they can get away with charging more money for EVs in practice. Social media street cred from terminally online people who don't rent cars anyway doesn't pay the bills if EVs cost more but generate the same revenue...
(Score: 3, Interesting) by ElizabethGreene on Wednesday January 31 2024, @01:21PM (1 child)
425k is the right neighborhood; you could check their annual report if you want the skinny on it. A couple of things that skew that. First, that's just the US number. They have iirc half that number internationally too. Also, the illusion of choice, they have three separate and competing brands, Hertz, Dollar, and Thrifty so that's across all three brands.
You're off by one on the decimal point, there's about 1 car per ~800 people or 1 car per 350 households and they make up about a fourth of the US rental market. 3/4ths of their rentals are non-business customers, e.g. recreational and insurance company temporary replacement vehicles.
For better or worse, we're a car country.
("Car" above is inclusive of Cars, SUVs, and light trucks.)
(Disclosure: I'm a Happy Hertz Gold Beryllium diamond elephant whatever member. I rented cars more or less continuously from them for about 4 years* pre-pandemic for business travel.)
(* - Yes, I realize how ludicrous that is and I could have paid for a new car with just the mileage reimbursements from driving them from Nashville to Atlanta. I *should* have bought a Nissan Versa instead of renting one, but never expected the gig to run like that.)
(Score: 2) by VLM on Wednesday January 31 2024, @08:57PM
Ah I see like legacy media, processed foods, fast food, and frankly everything else, a very small number of companies own almost all the brands. I was under the illusion car rental was a relatively competitive market, but its more of the usual...
I am kind of surprised the markets for "travel" and "moving" haven't merged as they are in the same line of work, more or less. uhaul should be able to rent me a civic and enterprise should be able to rent me a giant moving truck but AFAIK they don't interoperate.
I have always owned "fast" little commuter cars and two seaters and similar and about once a year I rent the Home Depot truck to haul home a couple thousand pounds of nonsense and at least once a decade I rent a giant moving truck to move a minicomputer or metal lathe or some similar item. I don't even do it often enough to justify owning and registering a mere trailer much less owning a giant truck.
I prefer to think of it as metric percent...
(Score: 2) by Whoever on Wednesday January 31 2024, @05:11PM (1 child)
You might want to check your math.
(Score: 2) by VLM on Wednesday January 31 2024, @08:44PM
Posting before breakfast tea, always a mistake.
(Score: 2) by mcgrew on Friday February 02 2024, @08:30PM
I don't think they can get away with charging more money for EVs in practice.
I own an EV, they are to piston cars what the Model-T was to a horse, but I wouldn't pay extra to rent one. Another example of how stupid most people born rich, like CEOs and boards of directors are.
A Black, Hispanic, or Muslim voting for Trump is like a Jew voting for Hitler
(Score: 4, Informative) by ElizabethGreene on Wednesday January 31 2024, @12:59PM
The non-airport "Hertz Local Edition" near me has been renting out Teslas for a while now, and there is a problem. We have plenty of options for opportunity charging, but the car doesn't come with the Tesla-to-J772 adapter, and our nearest supercharger is 25 miles away.
This was a save-a-dollar-lose-a-hundred mistake.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by redback on Wednesday January 31 2024, @01:19PM (6 children)
Hertz didn't think through the charging problem properly.
They should have trained their staff to provide instruction to people new to EVs
They should have got Tesla to install Superchargers at their sites.
They should have provided J1772 adapters.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday January 31 2024, @01:37PM (5 children)
It's not just bad management of the charging problem. There is a fundamental financial motive at work that can't be fixed by providing an adapter cable:
>despite costing less to maintain, they have higher damage-repair costs and, also, higher depreciation.
Batteries. The reason I haven't bought an electric vehicle bigger than a bicycle yet is: batteries.
Two near bottom of the line e-bikes cost us 80% as much as the used car we bought 5 years ago, and what costs 80% of their purchase price to replace? Batteries.
If you drive 50,000 miles a year in a big gas hog (because: driving that many miles, you're gonna want to be comfortable), and you have a charging infrastructure that supports your use case(s), then I definitely see the appeal of EVs. Right up until it's time to replace the: Batteries. They do eventually cycle down to un-useful capacity levels, no matter how "well you treat them." They do need replacing when damaged in a collision. They occasionally fail early for no particular reason we can find - this mostly tends to happen out of warranty. If you escape unscathed, covered by insurance and warranty for any of the all too common "unforseens," and get slightly better than advertised average life from your pack, at the end of it all, as a heavy user, you will come out ahead financially... but not nearly as much as you're lying to yourself on a daily basis you will.
I predict a fair amount of consumer sour grapes backlash when they start having to pay for their own: Batteries.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by mcgrew on Friday February 02 2024, @08:33PM (4 children)
The ten year warranty fixes that problem for me, I've been driving since 1968 and never owned a car that long.
A Black, Hispanic, or Muslim voting for Trump is like a Jew voting for Hitler
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Friday February 02 2024, @08:52PM (3 children)
If you don't mind "the spend" associated with always driving cars less than 10 years old, that works for you.
I have been driving since 1985 and only purchased two new vehicles in that time. Still have the 1991, and traded the 1999 for a 2019 last year. I believe my wife and I only ever sold one car before it was ten years old, that one being a CVT Dodge Caliber that we wanted out of before the CVT got (more) annoying.
Whenever I have done a "fix it or replace it" analysis, by cost it has always been cheaper to fix it, including mechanics' labor - which is often just an optional convenience fee.
With battery packs, EVs are now sporting a single critical component that will cost more to "fix" than it costs to replace the vehicle.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by mcgrew on Thursday February 08 2024, @06:24PM (2 children)
This is the first new car I've bought since 1984.
A Black, Hispanic, or Muslim voting for Trump is like a Jew voting for Hitler
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Thursday February 08 2024, @11:16PM (1 child)
You may be in the "driver will expire before the battery pack is likely to" category, which makes the EV much more attractive. If you were looking forward to 20+ more years of driving the analysis would look different.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by mcgrew on Saturday February 10 2024, @09:12PM
I never looked forward to driving any car that long! Engine parts aren't all that wears out, after a decade no seat is anywhere near as comfortable as it was new. I usually buy them at about five years old and get rid of them in ten or so. When my back hurts after a hundred fifty miles it's time to trade the old junker in.
A Black, Hispanic, or Muslim voting for Trump is like a Jew voting for Hitler
(Score: 5, Informative) by DadaDoofy on Wednesday January 31 2024, @03:09PM (22 children)
While all of the comments here (so far) focus on a lack of chargers, it's a red herring. TFA makes no mention of a lack of chargers being a factor in Hertz deciding to dumping 20,000 EVs. For years, we've been told lie after lie to advance the false narrative that EVs are cheaper to own than ICE vehicles. Before there was a significant used car market for EVs, it was relatively easy to fool people in this regard. Fortunately, that is no longer the case. Here is another article that goes into more detail about the nightmare in store for those needing to repair their EVs.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/new-electric-vehicle-deemed-total-loss-after-battery-replacement-costs-more-than-car-itself/ar-AA1maEUW [msn.com]
(Score: 3, Informative) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday January 31 2024, @04:18PM (2 children)
I do believe that EVs are cheaper to own and operate, TCO, for people who buy new vehicles. But: the cost-per-mile is distributed differently. You only pay (roughly) 25% as much "at the pump" as you do for gasoline, but the batteries are depreciating at a rate roughly twice the cost of the electricity charging them, so overall savings is more like 25%, not 75%
I also believe that EVs are a bad bet for a used vehicle purchase. Market perception (and therefore values) is going to be influenced by things other than cost of operation and depreciation for many years to come, so that's going to skew the whole thing, including TCO for new vehicle purchasers who sell out early, like Hertz. Fear of high maintenance costs will fight against the "luxury halo" effect of getting a Tesla for 1/2 what it cost new...
I'd be willing to bet that Hertz has identified an "irrationally high valuation" in the used EV market at the moment, and they want to grab it before it gets away.
Tangential puns: Hertz is fundamentally incompatible with the DC voltage coming from the EV batteries, they need to rectify this by discharging some of their EV fleet to stop the pain.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by xorsyst on Friday February 02 2024, @04:58PM (1 child)
The "at the pump" cost in the UK is now about the same as petrol, per-mile, when rapid charging. It's ludicrous. Obviously at-home charging is much cheaper, but in the 3 years I've had an EV, the rapid cost has gone up over 400% for long-distance travel.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Friday February 02 2024, @05:12PM
Not so obviously. The cost of electricity varies a lot around the world. Costa Rica pays a bit over double for their home electricity what we do in Florida...
I suppose EV owners might tolerate a 400% premium for rapid charging on the road to cover the cost of infrastructure rollout. Sounds like something that would need regulation to make sure the premium goes away, eventually.
Florida had a fair number of toll bridges back in the day, tolls supposed to cover cost of construction of the bridge like ferry tolls covered the cost of ferry operations. Once the bridges were paid off, a lot of them went toll free, though some retained the tolls to continue "traffic shaping" because without the tolls too many people would choose to use the bridge instead of an alternate route.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday January 31 2024, @05:24PM (4 children)
(Score: 3, Interesting) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday January 31 2024, @06:15PM (3 children)
>lack of a secondary market for batteries.
And the discovery of a gigantic lithium deposit in the wasteland otherwise known as the Salton Sea [undark.org] just cut the knees out from under the US lithium battery recycling market.
Any value left in past-end-of-life lithium battery packs will be overwhelmed by the risk of fire in most use cases.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 3, Insightful) by khallow on Thursday February 01 2024, @02:11AM (2 children)
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Thursday February 01 2024, @02:39AM (1 child)
Tesla would seem to be the only upstart with enough funds to make a serious market play.
Stellantis (Ram) is ponderously approaching market, hopefully they can launch models that make enduring profits. Chevy and Ford seem to have rushed out poorly conceived models and market research prototypes that have proven unsustainable rather quickly.
I hold great hopes for the VW ID.Buzz, but I'm afraid it will hit the US highly overpriced. Canoo is already near or on market with similar interesting vehicles, but they seem as financially shaky as Rivian and the rest.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by mcgrew on Friday February 02 2024, @08:46PM
Studebaker was a buggy maker that was dragged kicking and screaming into the automotive age, the last one. Ford and Chevy are today's equivalent.
A Black, Hispanic, or Muslim voting for Trump is like a Jew voting for Hitler
(Score: 4, Interesting) by weirsbaski on Wednesday January 31 2024, @06:54PM (1 child)
A big part of EV savings is that charging it is cheaper than gas. But Hertz wasn't paying for the gas (customers fill the car before returning), so those savings didn't propagate to Hertz's bottom line.
For your Hyundai link, an almost-new car was in an accident that damaged its most expensive parts, (financially) totaling it. Really sucks for the owner, but it's not like that situation is new, or unique to EV's. The relevant question is whether this is more common for EV's, or is this just an anecdote?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 31 2024, @07:40PM
> A big part of EV savings is that charging it is cheaper than gas.
A big part of EV savings is that charging it at home (residential $/kWh rate) is cheaper than gas.
ftfy
I'll guess that most Hertz renters either:
+ get a free/cheap charge at their motel (overnight duration) or work destination (company perk)
+ if it's a service replacement rental, then they might keep up with 110VAC level 1 charging at home--but may need an adapter to do this?
+ get fleeced at a public charging station where the price is really high per kWh
(Score: 2) by Whoever on Wednesday January 31 2024, @07:23PM (10 children)
Alternatively, fossil fuel interests have decided that potential EV buyers have realizee d that their "you won't find a charger" trope is a lie and have moved onto new lies.
The example you cite is an outlier. It's not representative.
Hertz are also an outlier. Their cars are treated differently to cars owned by consumers.
(Score: 2) by mcgrew on Friday February 02 2024, @08:53PM (9 children)
Alternatively, fossil fuel interests have decided that potential EV buyers have realizee d [sic] that their "you won't find a charger" trope is a lie and have moved onto new lies.
No, that one's true. It's a hundred miles from here in Springfield, IL to St Louis, and there isn't a single charging station on I-55 between the cities, while there's at least one gas station off of almost every exit. I wish there was one in Litchfield, halfway there, so I wouldn't have to charge it to 100% before going, that reduces battery life.
A Black, Hispanic, or Muslim voting for Trump is like a Jew voting for Hitler
(Score: 2) by Whoever on Friday February 02 2024, @09:28PM (8 children)
1. As you point out, it's only 100 miles. Every modern EV should do that without charging on the route.
2. There are Superchargers on the outskirts of both cities.
3. There is a CCS charger in Litchfield. There is a CCS charger coming in Divernon and another coming in Hamel.
Try again.
(Score: 2) by mcgrew on Thursday February 08 2024, @06:28PM (7 children)
Yes, it will make the round trip, but I've read the charging to 100% shortens the battery life. There is a charger at the south of Springfield, but where on the outskirts of the St. Louis area? Where in Litchfield is there a charger? If there are any there, they're sure well hidden.
A Black, Hispanic, or Muslim voting for Trump is like a Jew voting for Hitler
(Score: 2) by Whoever on Thursday February 08 2024, @08:30PM (6 children)
How often do you make the journey, only to turn around and drive back, without stopping? Many, if not most, modern EVs could make the return journey without charging to 100%. There isn't an EV built in the last 6 years that could not make the one-way journey with 80% charge, unless your are trying to do it in an electric golf cart.
Occasional charging to 100% is OK. It's not recommended for every day. Are you driving this journey there and back with no stop every day?
You show your ignorance about EVs with your comment about the fact that you don't know where the charger is. All your issues are based on your ignorance and biases, not actual facts. I can see the charger on a website commonly used by EV drivers, with actual drivers of various brands of EV reporting charging there.
(Score: 2) by mcgrew on Saturday February 10 2024, @09:08PM (5 children)
Yes, that's my point; there are no chargers between here and there anywhere near the interstate. I visit my friend and drive home, and plug it in. If there was a charger halfway there or almost there an 80% charge would do fine. What's annoying is the amount of money that flies past business people's noses and they don't grab it. There's money to be made and it's being ignored.
You show your ignorance about EVs with your comment about the fact that you don't know where the charger is.
It's in my trunk. Are you illiterate? THERE ARE NO CHARGERS WITHIN THIRTY MILES OF THE GOD DAMNED INTERSTATE!
A Black, Hispanic, or Muslim voting for Trump is like a Jew voting for Hitler
(Score: 2) by Whoever on Monday February 12 2024, @07:50PM (4 children)
You are still ignoring the one in Litchfield, close to the Interstate. There is one in Troy, close to the Interstate. How about Collinsville?
According to one website for EV route planning, in my car, I could charge to 90%, do a round trip and arrive back with 9%. This isn't going to meaningfully impact the battery.
You keeps saying it's not possible, but you are ignoring the facts that I show which say that it is.
Perhaps it's not possible for YOUR EV to do the journey without charging to 100%, but it is possible for many EVs.
(Score: 2) by mcgrew on Wednesday February 14 2024, @03:00PM (3 children)
The facts as you know them differ from the facts as I know them. Where in Litchfield and how close to the interstate? There's a group of eateries and gas stations about a mile off of the interstate, where are the signs reporting the charging station? I see all sorts of gas station signs. If it's there, it's well-hidden.
A Black, Hispanic, or Muslim voting for Trump is like a Jew voting for Hitler
(Score: 2) by Whoever on Wednesday February 14 2024, @03:25PM (2 children)
I don't believe that you actually own an EV, since you would know how to find chargers if you did.
(Score: 2) by mcgrew on Sunday February 18 2024, @06:34PM (1 child)
Here's [mcgrew.info] a picture of me, my daughters, and my car. The two times it tried to find a charger, the first time it found a charger that required a smartphone, but my carrier had no coverage there. I wound up being towed, I probably could have made it home from where I was when it warned I was low but it was the first trip I'd taken it on and trusted it. The unusable charger was thirty miles off of the interstate.
The second time I drove 20 miles out of my way, searching for the charger for 20 minutes on foot and discovering that its only marking was "out of order". Thankfully I had plenty of charge to get home. You can see why I don't trust that faulty database.
A Black, Hispanic, or Muslim voting for Trump is like a Jew voting for Hitler
(Score: 2) by janrinok on Sunday February 18 2024, @06:54PM
Here's [mcgrew.info] a picture of me, my daughters, and my car.
It's a good job I was wearing my spectacles! :D
I am not interested in knowing who people are or where they live. My interest starts and stops at our servers.
(Score: 2) by mcgrew on Friday February 02 2024, @08:43PM
No, the lack of chargers isn't a red herring, it's the sole disadvantage to piston cars. The battery cost is the red herring since they're warranted for a decade. How long does a V-8 drive train with its thousands of moving parts cost to replace?
The truth is that advertising is what pays for news media, and they're not about to bite the hand that feeds them. EVs threaten removing billions of dollars from automakers, auto repair shops, auto parts stores, and the oil industry like a century ago when the automobile wiped out horse breeders, veterinarians, oat farriers, buggy makers and repairmen. The piston drive train is as obsolete as the horse and buggy were in 1924 before anybody realized they were obsolete.
A Black, Hispanic, or Muslim voting for Trump is like a Jew voting for Hitler
(Score: 2) by Nuke on Thursday February 01 2024, @02:33PM
A high depreciation is a reason to sell them off early? Accountants must work in mysterious ways.