Last week, the House approved a resolution to block the Biden administration's emissions rule that would require more than half of the automobiles sold in the new-car market to be electric by 2032. The 215 representatives who voted for the bill, including eight Democrats, are far more in tune with most of the country than the White House:
Nationwide, the inventory of unsold EVs had grown by nearly 350% over the first half of 2024, creating "a 92-day supply — roughly three months' worth of EVs, and nearly twice the industry average," says Axios, which is 54 days for gasoline-powered vehicles.
Ford, which lost nearly $73,000 on each EV it sold in the second quarter of 2023, continues to yield to reality, now ditching its plans to build a large electric SUV. This "course change," says Just the News, "comes amid lower-than-expected demand for electric vehicles."
[...] "Based on where the market is and where the customer is, we will pivot and adjust and make those tough decisions," said John Lawler, Ford's chief financial officer.
[...] "Of the U.S. consumers planning on purchasing a new vehicle in the next 24 months, only 34% intend to purchase an EV, down 14% from 48% in the 2023," says Ernst & Young's Mobility Consumer Index, "a global survey of almost 20,000 consumers from 28 countries."
The story is much the same in Britain. EVs "are losing value at an 'unsustainable' rate as a slowdown in consumer demand sends used car prices tumbling," the Telegraph reported last week. Meanwhile in France, "the EU's second largest market for battery electric vehicles behind Germany," deliveries have fallen by a third.
Germans are likewise losing interest, as the country has "suffered a 'spectacular' drop in electric car sales as the European Union faces growing calls to delay its net zero vehicle targets," the Telegraph said in a separate story.
Related:
- Stellantis Lays Off Thousands of Workers after Pocketing Hundreds of Millions in EV Subsidies
- VW Turns on Germany as China Targets Europe's EV Blunders
- South Korean EV Battery Makers Reporting Big Losses as EV Demand Slows
- Tesla Lays Off 'More Than 10%' of its Global Workforce
- Why are All the EVs so Expensive?
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I decided a few years ago that I was sick of standing in the snow at a gas station waiting for the person inside the building to finish selling that lottery ticket and turn the pump on so I can stand there some more babysitting it while it fills up and I freeze. The answer, of course, was to buy a car that didn't need gasoline, one I could plug into the house and go inside where it's warm.
I'm not a rich man, I'm a pensioner who is still paying a mortgage, so I looked for an affordable EV. Used ones are almost nonexistent, and I found out why when I finally bought one: it has a ten year warranty. They haven't been making them much longer than that.
I swore off new cars decades ago when my month old VW stranded me ninety miles from home with a bad alternator, but if you want an EV, new is your only choice. I kept seeing the Chevy Bolt advertised, but could never find one for sale at all. Then I found that they had stopped making them two years earlier.
Why? Well, battery problems, they claimed. Why just the not so expensive one, $30,000? GM is still selling electric Cadillacs and Corvettes, why no cheap cars?
I discovered after buying an EV that the only two advantages of a piston car to an electric one are the lack of infrastructure for long trips, and the high purchase price of the vehicle. Why high? Because only their flagship autos have electric motors, the ones that formerly had V8s.
Tesla has announced layoffs of "more than 10%" of its global workforce in an internal company-wide email:
For the last few months, it has looked like Tesla might be preparing for a round of layoffs. Tesla told managers to identify critical team members, and paused some stock rewards while canceling some employees' annual reviews. It also reduced production at Gigafactory Shanghai.
Then, over the weekend, we heard rumors that these layoffs were about to happen, which came to us from multiple independent sources, as we reported on yesterday. The rumors indicated that layoffs could be as high as 20%, and in addition we heard that Tesla would shorten Cybertruck production shifts at Gigafactory Texas (despite CEO Elon Musk's recent insistence that Cybertruck is currently production constrained).
Now those rumors have been confirmed – though with a lower number – in a company-wide email sent by Musk, which leaked soon after it was sent.
[...] The news follows a bad quarterly delivery report in which Tesla significantly missed delivery estimates, and had a rare year-over-year reduction in sales. While Tesla does not break out sales by geographical region, the main dip seems to have come from China, where Chinese EV makers are ramping quickly both in the domestic and export market.
Full text of email available at TFA.
Previously: Tesla is Reportedly Planning Layoffs
Battery maker LG Energy Solution's second-quarter profit dropped 58% year-on-year to 195.3 billion won ($141m), the company said on Monday (8 July), as demand for electric vehicles (EVs) slows:
The South Korean-based battery company also saw its revenue drop 30% to 6.2 trillion won ($4.4bn).
The company also faces increased competition from its Chinese rivals, which has weakened its share of the market.
Car manufacturers have been calling for battery companies to create cheaper cells to lower EV prices, which has applied pressure to companies like LG Energy.
This led to LG Energy's chief technology officer, Kim Je-Young, stating that the company would commercialise dry-coating technology by 2028, a technology which makes battery manufacturing cheaper and more efficient.
Battery maker SK On declares 'emergency' as EV sales disappoint. Supplier to Ford and Volkswagen may have to be rescued by its South Korean parent as losses mount:
A leading South Korean producer of electric vehicle batteries has declared itself in crisis as its customers struggle with disappointing EV sales in Europe and the US.
SK On, the world's fourth-largest EV battery maker behind Chinese giants CATL and BYD and South Korean rival LG Energy Solution, has recorded losses for 10 consecutive quarters since being spun off by its parent company in 2021. Its net debt has increased more than fivefold, from Won2.9tn ($2.1bn) to Won15.6tn over the same period, as western EV sales have fallen far short of its expectations.
With losses snowballing, chief executive Lee Seok-hee announced a series of cost-cutting and working practice measures last Monday, describing them as a state of "emergency management".
[...] SK On has made a series of aggressive investments in the US and Europe in recent years, betting on a widely predicted boom in demand for EVs. However, it has since announced extended lay-offs for workers at its plant in the US state of Georgia and delayed launching a second plant in Kentucky, a joint venture with its principal US customer Ford.
Previously:
- LG Energy Solution to Spend $3 Billion to Expand EV Battery Production in South Korea
- Honda and LG are Investing $3.5 Billion in New Ohio Battery Factory
- Ford Motor Company is Planning a Big EV Future
Losing ground in the race to produce electric vehicles, German and French carmakers are heading toward a disruptive wave of factory closures:
Volkswagen AG is considering factory closures in Germany for the first time in its 87-year history, parting with tradition and risking a feud with unions in a step that reflects the deep woes roiling Europe's auto industry.
After years of ignoring overcapacity and slumping competitiveness, the German auto giant's moves are likely to kick off a broader reckoning in the industry. The reasons are clear: Europe's efforts to compete with Chinese rivals and Tesla Inc. in electric cars are faltering. (full article is paywalled)
"If even VW mulls closing factories in Germany, given how hard that process will be, it means the seas have gotten very rough," Pierre-Olivier Essig, a London-based equities analyst at AIR Capital, told Bloomberg. "The situation is very alarming."
[...] Car sales in Europe are down nearly one-fifth from prior to the COVID-19 pandemic and EV demand has slackened as Germany and Sweden have removed and reduced incentives to purchase the vehicles, Bloomberg reported. As a result, Chinese EV manufacturer BYD has jumped into the European market, pricing its Seagull model at just $9,700 before tax, a far cry from the European's average EV cost of $48,000 in 2022.
VW began downsizing in July, with its Audi subsidiary cutting 90% of its 3,000 person workforce at its manufacturing plant in Brussels, Belgium, according to Bloomberg.
The company's share price is now approaching the lows of its 2015 "diesel crisis," when the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency accused the company of installing illegal software in its cars in order to artificially improve its results on diesel emission tests, BBC News reported. The company also posted a €100 million net cash flow loss on its automotive business in the first half of 2024.
Related:
- South Korean EV Battery Makers Reporting Big Losses as EV Demand Slows
- General Motors Lays Off Hundreds Of US Workers
- Auto Woes
- Why are All the EVs so Expensive?
A multinational automaker prepared to lay off more than 2,000 American workers in August after benefiting handsomely from the Biden administration's subsidies for electric-vehicle production:
Stellantis, the parent company to famous brands like Ram and Jeep, has been awarded hundreds of millions in grants from the federal government to promote its EV manufacturing. But the Biden administration's largesse has not prevented the company from laying off American workers.
In July, the Department of Energy awarded Stellantis subsidiary Chrysler a $334.8 million grant to convert a shuttered Illinois plant into a facility for building EVs and another $250 million grant to make a ...(aaaand, paywall)
The AP ran a story a few weeks ago foreshadowing this action:
The statement comes as the company faces increased capital spending to make the transition from gasoline vehicles to electric autos. It also has reported declining U.S. sales in the first quarter, and it has higher costs due to a new contract agreement reached last year with the United Auto Workers union. Stellantis has about 43,000 factory workers.
[...] Stellantis CEO Carlos Tavares has said his company has to work on cutting costs globally in order to keep electric vehicles affordable for the middle class. Electric vehicles, he has said, cost about 40% more than those powered by gasoline. Without cost reductions, EVs will be too expensive for the middle class, shrinking the market and driving costs up more, Tavares has said.
I've been working on cars for most of my life and my observation is Chrysler/Ram are the worst vehicles on the road. I also own two Jeeps that are 50+ years old, however Chrysler has ruined the Jeep name by what I assume is cutting corners to save money because they're poorly designed and flimsy. Interesting the powers that be at Stellantis don't seem to be concerned about these issues.
Previously: Chrysler to Go All-Electric by 2028, Starting with the Airflow in 2025
Related:
• General Motors Lays Off Hundreds Of US Workers
• Tesla Lays Off 'More Than 10%' of its Global Workforce
(Score: 3, Interesting) by DrkShadow on Tuesday October 01, @04:14AM (44 children)
Or was it Honda? Putting off and putting off their investment in EV, continuing with ICE, only just recently starting up EV research..
But I wonder: why? From what I read, drivers don't dislike EVs. They seem to like them. (Except pickup trucks. Maybe SUVs too.)
City-dwellers, without a garage, sure. Anyone out in the country should be able to install the necessary charging infrastructure. Maybe the city dwellers make up 2/3 of the market.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by higuita on Tuesday October 01, @04:43AM (9 children)
Toyota said that there is not enough lithium for full EV, hybrid could be a good middle ground until alternative show up. Toyota bet on hydrogen, but it is always the chicken/egg problem, it is hard to sell cards if there are no hydrogen fuel stations... there are no hydrogen fuel stations because there are no hydrogen cars. Also, the tech around hydrogen is also new, need finetune and hydrogen is a product hard to contain and transport. Finally, all points that hydrogen is the future, but using renewable hydrogen... right now almost all that exists come from petrol, not renewables, again chicken and egg problem.
EV are great, but range and long charge times are a problem, we all read about "new and awesome" batteries tech, but until we get something that solve either of those problems, EV will always be limited.
Finally, subscription cars are stupid... and EV look like are all getting those, making people run away from them
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 01, @10:48AM (1 child)
A good way to store hydrogen is around carbon atoms.
(Score: 2) by VLM on Tuesday October 01, @12:52PM
It would make a good hybrid design as fuel cells get heavy for peak power use and don't like thermal cycles.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by datapharmer on Tuesday October 01, @12:42PM (5 children)
Hydrogen has never been a good option for land vehicles. The volume density is terrible vs both gas and lithium, it is almost impossible to prevent it from leaking due to being really small molecularity, and it is expensive to produce cleanly (if you want to make it from natural gas then just use the darn natural gas instead).
(Score: 2) by drussell on Tuesday October 01, @05:06PM (4 children)
Someone needs to come up with a way to store it less directly (storing high pressure, tiny-molecule gas is extremely difficult), but in an easily extractable form. It needs to be dissolved in something, or reacted with something easily reversible or some-such.
Scientifically, this is a very difficult thing to achieve, but I simply don't see raw hydrogen being a viable vehicle fuel any time soon...
(Score: 4, Insightful) by VLM on Tuesday October 01, @05:09PM (3 children)
Attaching H to medium length carbon chains makes a super energy dense liquid fuel with great characteristics.
(Score: 3, Touché) by drussell on Tuesday October 01, @05:36PM (1 child)
Indeed... What you say is technically true.
However, that was only part of the requirement which I stated. Unfortunately they're not so easy to liberate from those structures for the applications being discussed here, like powering fuel cells. Thanks for the typical disingenuous nonsense distraction, though. 🙄
(Score: 3, Informative) by VLM on Tuesday October 01, @09:11PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_methanol_fuel_cell [wikipedia.org]
DMFCs are a legit thing. If we had infinite free solar power I could see making 100% fully synthetic methanol using the excess power for later use in DMFCs.
They were a bit of a meme product in the late 00s. Fell off the radar since. Don't recall why.
IIRC there was a problem where part of the cycle was mostly-water-ish and that'll freeze and destroy the cell in normal outdoor temps. Yes I know pure methanol doesn't freeze until -100C the problem was something like the exhaust boiled off distilled water which would freeze and destroy the cell. Possibly an engineering solution given infinite free energy would be to never shut off the cell and hope when it does run out of fuel it doesn't crack.
Or maybe the problem was catalyst poisoning.
Solid oxide cells, being made out of weird rare earths, are expensive and not being made of water they don't crack when you freeze them but they run like a dull red heat so that's its own problem.
If a solid oxide cell existed that could run at outdoor temps, that would be very convenient indeed.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 01, @06:20PM
Attaching 3 H to one Nitrogen makes anhydrous ammonia which is a fairly efficient way of storing Hydrogen (not quite as good as hydrocarbons). It burns in air without any Carbon (CO2) byproducts. There are some nitrogen oxide pollutants, but ICE gasoline engines also make NOx, which the catalyst takes care of.
There is already an ammonia infrastructure in place, in agriculture nearly worldwide as fertilizer.
(Score: 4, Informative) by sjames on Tuesday October 01, @04:05PM
Hydrogen was and is a non-starter. There's simply no infrastructure for it. I don't just meen filling stations, I mean distribution to filling stations as well.
Beyond that, It's REALLY hard to keep hydrogen from leaking out and making the fuel lines and tanks brittle in the process.
Reports from the few hydrogen cars out there bear that out. The fuel level goes down just from being parked. California had a few hydrogen filling stations. Most of them have shut down now. A few not so happy owners who bought hydrogen vehicles are suing now because they were promised there would be places to fill up and there are not.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by mhajicek on Tuesday October 01, @05:22AM (14 children)
If you live in the city, charging is a bitch. If you live in the country, you'll likely have range problems, especially during weather extremes. Electric cars work best for suburbans.
That would be me, but I bought an economy car in 2018, which is still going strong. I drive about 30 miles a week, since I work at home. How long would it take for going electric to pay off? I also don't have garage space for it, since the garage is my business.
I also flat out refuse to buy an always online vehicle.
The spacelike surfaces of time foliations can have a cusp at the surface of discontinuity. - P. Hajicek
(Score: 5, Interesting) by canopic jug on Tuesday October 01, @05:53AM (13 children)
I also flat out refuse to buy an always online vehicle.
The fine article was about electric vehicles, and many like it are about declining sales of new internal combustion based vehicles, and all of them try to blame everything except the actual problem, the always online active surveillance.
Not only are there scores of microcontrollers and full-blown computers [electronics-sourcing.com] rolling around with you while all interconnected, there are dozens of cameras and microphones many of which are inside with the driver and passengers. The result is that the new cars, be they gas, diesel, or electric, monitor your every word and movement and upload them at a rate of 5GB to 25GB [qz.com] per hour [rollcall.com], when connectivity allows. Again the surveillance is not just the dash cams and side mirrors but also inside the car too with both audio and video. The car companies consider, wrongly, that the data is theirs to do with as they wish without regard to the ostensible owner of the car [caranddriver.com]. Then there are the problems of the proprietary (and sometimes stolen) software used and above all the proprietary interfaces to those systems with no standard diagnostic ports [arstechnica.com] and no standard diagnostic API despite congressional attempts at requiring them. On top of that, using wi-fi as an excuse to keep information even more under wraps, the affordable, independent mechanics are being squeezed out making people have to go to over priced, unpleasant dealers.
People realize all that, if even subconsciously. That surveillance nothing that anyone actually wants and I would posit that most actively avoid. That avoidance is especially strong when it is realized that they have very little control over the car and what it actually does. Even the new internal combustion engine ones are worse than smart phones on wheels.
Money is not free speech. Elections should not be auctions.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Unixnut on Tuesday October 01, @10:27AM
Wow, things are even worse with modern cars than I thought. I'm definitely on the "not buying a new car" list, electric or ICE. Any car that requires me to sign a EULA or pay monthly for it to work is an immediate "no", as are any of them that have "connectivity" or any other of the misfeatures you described.
I think you are right that now the majority of people realise what a bad option new cars are, even if subconsciously. I can only presume a lot of people who would have bought new decided to buy something second hand without all that junk, which is why the second hand car market for older non-connected cars is booming.
People who would be willing to spend €20,000-30,000 on a new car are generally willing to buy a good second hand car for maybe 80% of that price, pushing up the price of everything from good examples to the bad ones.
It is actually proving hard to find a decent second hand car to buy where I live for what I consider a fair price (up to €12,000). You used to be able to get a decent well maintained car for that price, now all I am finding at that price are worn out poor examples. Decent well maintained examples round here cost almost as much as the brand new models and I was wondering why.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday October 01, @10:43AM (6 children)
For example, I see a jump [in2013dollars.com] in car costs as the covid pandemic wound down (11% rise, adjusted for inflation in 2022). And a huge increase in EV production [ourworldindata.org] in recent years. That graph shows that the percent of new car sales that were EVs went from 4% in 2020 to 18% in 2023. That is on top of a 20% [statista.com] increase in motor vehicle sales over the same time period. So what happens when the supply of EVs goes up by more than a factor of 5 in four years?
At best, this would be a typical unintended consequence of mandating 100% EVs in 11 years when you don't have the drivers on board.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by canopic jug on Tuesday October 01, @11:14AM
One take on that is that people see the high maintenance costs of the new cars and don't appreciate the fact that the new cars cannot be taken to trusted independent mechanics only to dodgy, overpriced dealers with bad service. That has been a major factor in the skyrocketing cost of used cars, especially ones with little or no electronics. Newer used cars are going for twice what they are worth around here, though just the ones with fewer computers. The fewer ECUs the better that influences the price. Even a 750,000km 30-year old beater, albeit with a good maintenance log, barely has time for the engine to cool down during trade in before it is sold and driven away.
Money is not free speech. Elections should not be auctions.
(Score: 2) by canopic jug on Tuesday October 01, @02:53PM (4 children)
Yet another take on that would be that the backlog in manufacturing is inhibiting sales not the other way around. Lead times in some areas are measured in months not days or weeks [electrifying.com] and that's for all brands [fleetevolution.com]. That really slows down sales especially if people insist on test driving first. So, yeah, people are not buying the electric cars but availability is on of the impediments.
Money is not free speech. Elections should not be auctions.
(Score: 2) by drussell on Tuesday October 01, @05:10PM (3 children)
Huh?
The summary says there is an over-90-day backlog of EV inventory clogging up the works...
Are they just all sitting piled up in storage lots at the manufacturer but none are at the dealers for people to actually buy or something?!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 01, @07:05PM (1 child)
Yes, likely on storage lots. In lots near the plants and then in various "regions" that the car makers use to split up the sales territories. The dealers have (at least in some cases) gotten smart about accepting too many BEVs--because they aren't selling (at least not this season).
(Score: 3, Interesting) by khallow on Thursday October 03, @12:44AM
Keep in mind the dynamics here. Lots of EVs built (it's gone up a factor of five in the past five years), but a huge wait time for an EV. Alleging that they aren't selling is probably accurate, but not in the way you think. There's plenty of demand out there (as indicated by the wait times) and plenty of supply. So why is there this disconnect? When supply and demand breaks down, I first look at the middle man, here the car dealer. As far as they're concerned, an EV is a loss leader. You can't put a lot of power-consuming options on it and it has lower repair costs until you get to the battery pack in the too long term future. The EV is only there to get the customer on the lot. And you don't need many of them for that.
Sure, with the massive number of new EVs built, they probably have oversupplied the market. But it's not in a dealer's interests to sell a bunch of low profit EVs.
Consider what cmdrklarg wrote [soylentnews.org]:
Why don't they have dozens of these things on the lots ready to sell? You already have my take on why.
Now consider this interesting tidbit. Tesla doesn't use dealer channels to sell its cars. And they aren't having much trouble at the moment matching EV cars made to sold. It's a subtle effect, but I see this as being a substantial market share grower over the decades.
(Score: 2) by cmdrklarg on Tuesday October 01, @09:16PM
I just checked the inventory of the local Toyota dealer that I've been doing business with for many years now (they have treated me extremely well). They have a grand total of 1 EV ready to drive off the lot. The local Chevy/Nissan/Volkswagen dealer has 4 of them. They do have them marked down in price, so that sounds good to me.
My lease is up in about a year, and I'm hoping to be able to acquire an EV of some type. Still hoping for the small pickup EV, but I'm not holding my breath.
The world is full of kings and queens who blind your eyes and steal your dreams.
(Score: 2) by sjames on Tuesday October 01, @04:21PM (3 children)
THIS!
I don't want the car to even be capable of phoning home. I also refuse to rent features (even if they call it a subscription). Anything that blocks me from interfacing my own hardware to the car is an anti-feature I want gone.
I can implement an actually secure wireless remote. I can easily interface it to a CAN bus. What I don't have is the needed information to allow my security system to tell the doors to unlock. The manufacturer wants to keep that sooper sekrit so I have to rent their inferior non-solution that depends on their cloud. No sale.
These days, they even like to hide the mechanical door lock away. Suddenly a dead battery becomes a problem involving a tow truck.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 01, @07:11PM (2 children)
> Suddenly a dead battery becomes a problem involving a tow truck.
Many problems turn into a tow. A friend with mid-priced SUV, a few years old found it "bricked" one day. Key fob didn't work (and replacing the fob battery had no effect). There was one key lock in the driver's door, and they could get inside. Nothing lit up except a little light next to the console gearshift (which showed that the car battery wasn't dead).
Several different people poked at is, no signs of life.
Towed to the dealer, $600 later it came back working. Diagnosis--a blown fuse.
I suggested going back to the dealer and getting a detailed invoice (bill) that included size/part# of that fuse, and also the location of that fuse.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 01, @07:48PM
That would like writing to TicketMaster asking what the Delivery Fee covers versus the Service Fee, the Online Fee and the Convenience Fee, not to mention the Credit Card fee, Registration Fee and CEO's Bonus Fee.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by anubi on Thursday October 03, @12:25AM
What I want is a really simple car. Not a mobile residence. The more crap it has, the more things there is to break.
Simple controls like my 50 year old manual stick car had.
All controls work by feel. Mechanical. No touch screens. No "drive by wire". Shaft steering and hydraulic brakes to back up the regen.
I'll want open source designs on all electronics...as I would still like things like regenerative braking, power feed options, as well as "power bank" type capabilities.
Without being forced into obsolescence by some vendor using monopoly of patent and copyright.
They are still beating around the bush, but they are getting closer.
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g43480930/history-of-electric-cars/ [caranddriver.com]
Strip out the nanny, and I'll get my wallet.
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 3, Interesting) by ncc74656 on Wednesday October 02, @05:40AM
You're not wrong. :) I was in the market for a pickup recently, and set out to buy nothing newer than a 2012 model (as that's what I had been driving up to that point). I ended up with an '06. While price was also part of the equation (new and late-model used trucks are stupid expensive), I'd also had run-ins with various sorts of nanny tech in newer vehicles I'd rented in recent years and wanted no part of that in anything I owned. Between the older truck and the de-Googled smartphone I use, I think I've taken reasonable steps to keep Big Brother at arm's length.
(Score: 5, Touché) by darkfeline on Tuesday October 01, @06:31AM (1 child)
So the people who can tolerate the reduced range cannot charge them, and the people who cannot tolerate the reduced range can charge them? Gee, wonder why they aren't popular.
This is, yet again, why centrally planned economies fail. EVs are the future. Not the present. Come back in a decade, maybe.
Join the SDF Public Access UNIX System today!
(Score: 2) by mcgrew on Tuesday October 01, @04:12PM
Range only matters if you travel much. If your household has two vehicles, only ignorance of the EV's many advantages keeps both vehicles piston vehicles. I seldom drive more than 200 miles, the EV I had did that fairly easily.
The auto industry hates EVs and are NOT going to tell you of the very many advantages.
Poe's Law [nooze.org] has nothing to do with Edgar Allen Poetry
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday October 01, @10:45AM (12 children)
mhajicek nailed it with his reply. Some rural people can almost certainly get by with the range of an EV, while many others simply cannot. If all I need to do is go grocery shopping once or twice a week, then fine, an EV would meet my needs. But that isn't real life at all in rural America. Commuting to work would put a strain on EV ranges in many cases. Commuting to work, and making a doctor's appointment in a different city may be out of reach in many cases. Personally, I no longer work, but I'm being overwhelmed with doctor's appointments, not only for myself, but for my wife. The doctors aren't exactly clustered into one nearby city. One office is north of our home, another is east, several are south, while others are even further south. The longest ranging EVs (read "most expensive") could meet our needs today, but many cannot. Younger people with school age children are going to have range problems as well. Attending a football/basketball/baseball game may well be out of reach, because the car won't get there and back after a day of work, errands, and whatever.
EVs simply won't work until either the range is extended over 500 miles, or the charging infrastructure is beefed up drastically. I simply can't see high schools installing hundreds of charging stations around the athletics fields, can you? I've mentioned doctor's offices. It's difficult to find parking at many offices, more difficult to find handicapped parking, and impossible to find an EV charging station. Though, I will note that the newest hospital in the region has more parking than usual, more handicapped parking than usual, and, additionally, they have four EV charging stations. (I've not examined those to see what they are compatible with - I simply walked past them, and noted their presence.) Retrofitting those charging stations to existing hospitals would probably be a major pain for everyone involved, including patients trying to get to the hospital during construction.
I suppose there is an app to help you find EV charging stations, but I personally just don't see the stations in my travels. Walmart doesn't have them, the gas stations haven't installed any, Lowe's doesn't have them, I don't see them as I drive by the hotels and motels. Downtown businesses certainly don't have them. If you run low on juice in rural America, you're simply screwed. Call a tow truck, I guess. Or, call your neighbor to bring his trailer to haul you home.
“I have become friends with many school shooters” - Tampon Tim Walz
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday October 01, @10:51AM (1 child)
Sorry, forgot to mention that I'm seeing more and more hybrids out here in rural America. I guess that's the missing factor on most EVs - the owner MUST be able to extend the range in the absence of infrastructure. An onboard generator, or high capacity solar, or something.
“I have become friends with many school shooters” - Tampon Tim Walz
(Score: 2) by mcgrew on Tuesday October 01, @04:20PM
Ah, the hybrid, savior of the industry. Only one of the many advantages of an EV over pistons, and it not as advantageous as an EV on that single advantage.
A two car family would do well with an EV and a hybrid. If you only travel once a year, you're better off with an EV and rent a gasoline car for that once a year vacation.
The EV is to the piston what the Model-T was to a horse and buggy. Mine got totaled, I can't wait to get another one.
Poe's Law [nooze.org] has nothing to do with Edgar Allen Poetry
(Score: 5, Insightful) by datapharmer on Tuesday October 01, @01:30PM (7 children)
As someone who lives in a rural area and owns an EV and a truck, I can tell you that these are imaginary problems. I can commute 2.5 hours each way to work and back on a single charge in a vehicle that has shorter range than many existing EVs, and there are numerous chargers along the way if I for some weird reason wanted to charge on the way instead of just charging at home (which is more convenient and costs less).
As for city dwellers, sure it might be less convenient if you can't charge at home, but you can't really fill up on gas at home either. But with an EV you may be able to use one of the many free chargers and never have to pay if you mostly commute around town (we have them in the nearest city at several different parking garages and strip malls and you shop or eat and come out to slightly more charge than when you left), or you can use one of the fast charge options if you need to go on a longer trip - it still is the same price or cheaper than gas but instead of standing outside on the heat or snow you can watch youtube with the climate control on while you fill up.
Since getting an ev I haven't driven the truck far enough to warrant an oil change in over a year, but we've got 23k miles on the ev. It turns out it just makes more sense to drive something that is comfortable, has an incredible amount of storage, and costs $0.03-$0.05 a mile to drive vs something that costs $0.18-$0.23 a mile in fuel. We also don't have to do oil changes and our maintenance so far has included going through the car wash and adding some air to the tires. We now only drive the truck if we need to tow, haul something, or when we need to go two different places and the ev is already being driven.
Saying they 'simply won't work' without a 500+ mile range is something only someone who hasn't used one or wants to sell gasoline would say - it is absurd since most gas vehicles don't go anywhere near that on a single tank.
As for finding the ev stations, yep there is an app you can use on your phone.... or the car will just take you there by plotting it as part of the trip (during the rare times you even need to find one). They are all around you, they just don't require the huge amount of space gas stations do as they often put them in the parking lots of places you are already going, so they aren't as obvious. They are in many parking structures, behind a fair number of Wawa's, next to grocery stores, near hotels, at libraries and city centers, you just have to start looking around more carefully and you will realize just how many are actually around you because it is 2 here and 4 there where you need them instead of having to drive to a Bucee's with 120 pumps taking up several acres. Additionally, they are adding more chargers every day - I just noticed new ones being installed at a Subway sandwich parking lot yesterday when I was on my drive home. Keep in mind that they had a 120 year head start on building gas stations, so of course there are more of them!
Also, that article is sensationalist as hell. Sure, some EVs are losing value, but the same happens with some gas vehicles. It turns out most luxury vehicles don't hold their values particularly well and most existing EVs were sold as luxury vehicles. This is the same reason sales are down for some companies - Ford built a bunch of expensive EVs after the luxury EV market was fairly saturated already, and those with the money that still want one would rather drive an Audi, BMW, Tesla, Rivian or Lucid than a Mach-E or F-150 lightning. Even the Ford CEO admits the F-150 lightning is terrible when he tried driving it. It doesn't mean all EVs are. Couple that with a changing charging standard from CCS1 to NACS in the US and why would you buy a vehicle now that will require an adapter for the next decade when you could just wait a year or two and get one with the much superior NACS (tesla) charging port? If you want to sell the EVs you have to build something someone actually wants to own. Some non-luxury EVs are holding their values despite the hype - a new Tesla Model Y for example can be purchased for $37490 + ttt (includes tax incentive which is taken of the price at time of purchase). A 2021 Model Y with average mileage can be bought for around $26k... that depreciation works out to around 10% a year which is right in line with typical vehicle depreciation of 10-15%/year. Not great, but not terrible. It is a car still, and despite Elon's hogwash they still aren't an appreciating asset but they aren't a money pit either.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by mcgrew on Tuesday October 01, @04:24PM
which is more convenient and costs less
I suspect you're European, because charging infrastructure in the midwestern US is practically nonexistent. Where I live, the public charger at Walmart is almost as expensive as gasoline, although gasoline if four to five times as costly as electricity from your house.
Poe's Law [nooze.org] has nothing to do with Edgar Allen Poetry
(Score: 3, Insightful) by sjames on Tuesday October 01, @04:29PM
Stop right there. Perhaps YOUR city has many convenient chargers (that actually work), but my city does not.
As for charging at home, I have no garage. I could probably wire in a charger for a few grand, but unless I care to upgrade my circuit and panel, it'll have to hang off of the dryer circuit with a switch that allows one or the other. I could live with that, and about 90% of my trips would be in range but the other 10% would leave me stuck.
(Score: 1) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday October 01, @05:49PM (4 children)
My gas vehicles all get around 300 miles per tank. I leave home, drive til the little warning thing says "ding ding ding" and flashes the red light on the dash, and look around for a gas station. Fill up in just a few minutes, and continue driving. That is, I can drive 500 miles in a day, with a small expenditure of time to refuel. Obviously, if I have to drive that far in a day, I don't have time to sit in front of a charging station for 20 to 60 minutes. An EV that can drive 500 miles won't eliminate all the range objections for everyone, but 500 miles will exceed my own needs by a comfortable margin. I'm not the outlier who routinely drives 500 miles per day, but a 300 mile range just doesn't cut it.
You mention Wawa and Bucees, which puts you in New England, I believe. I put my home zip code into this map https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/electricity-locations#/find/nearest?fuel=ELEC&location=71836 [energy.gov] and I am somewhat surprised to see how many stations there are. OK - yes, there are more than I thought. 6 places within 50 miles, and one of those is the newish hospital I've already mentioned. 6 charging stations near me, more scattered around me, mostly along the interstate, and in larger cities. Whoops, sorry, let me change that to seven near me - Mount Pleasant, Texas is just about as close as Texarkana, and one of our doctors happens to be there.
For the sake of curiosity and honesty, my next trip to Texarkana, New Boston, or De Queen, I will find those stations, and observe. Rapid charge or not, I can't see those 7 charging stations serving any real number of people. But, I will observe.
“I have become friends with many school shooters” - Tampon Tim Walz
(Score: 3, Interesting) by datapharmer on Tuesday October 01, @08:57PM (1 child)
I'm not in Europe or New England, and to be fair there are probably some places like parts of Nevada, North Dakota, or Wyoming that have long distances between population centers and are politically anti-ev where charging could be a concern, but for the majority of people within an hour of a city or 30 minutes of an interstate it shouldn't be a practical problem.
Looking at your zip code on the plugshare app I see a ton of options in Texarkana: Texas Best Smokehouse has 20, Flying J near Mendeville has 4, Olive Garden has 8, Hampton Inn has 6, Mercedes dealership has 2, Smith Mankins Nissan has 4, Pecan Carriage House Airbnb has 4 and a wall plug... the air bnb and hotels are likely aimed at guests but some don't mind you charging if you ask nicely and I get that you might want to hang out at a car dealership but they are generally free. Avoiding those still gives you over 30 charging bays within a couple miles. Mount pleasant has Duke's mount vernon fuel stop, Jefferson Park Shopping center, or a bit further is a Tesla charger at Sulphur Springs PD. There are also options in Broken Bow and Hope as you get further out, so not as common as gas stations yet, but not exactly mythical either.
(Score: 1) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday October 01, @10:53PM
You obviously got more info from plugshare, than I got from that online map. I will definitely have to visit some of those, and observe how crowded they are. Thanks!
“I have become friends with many school shooters” - Tampon Tim Walz
(Score: 2) by VLM on Tuesday October 01, @09:29PM (1 child)
My experience is similar, there tend to be even fewer cars parked in the charger parking spots than parked in handicapped spots. The idea of waiting for a charger spot seems pretty foreign in my area, although with future growth it may be possible.
I don't know how to drive ten hours without stopping, at least since I got married and we had kids a long time ago. Isn't it unimaginably bad for your legs and circulation and back to sit for ten hours straight? I'd kind of have to stop and walk around for awhile every couple hours. I mean its theoretically possible, but sounds absolutely torturous.
Perhaps there are geographic limitations. I'm 20 hours to Florida, 30 hours to LA, and 14 hours to NYC according to Google Maps. So a car that can "only" drive for ten hours is already butting up against geographic limitations, I have no idea where I would drive if they sold an upgrade that can go 40 hours without stopping. I do not think I could drive 40 hours without stopping even with some kind of container to pee in while driving. I wonder about someone having a daily commute from "the greatly extended Chicago-land area" to "the greatly extended NYC area", that seems a bit extreme but possible on one charge in some of the more ridiculous long ranged super expensive EVs. My point of geographic limitations being that I can't physically drive 40 hours in any direction without hitting ocean, however someone living in LA could spend 40 hours driving to NYC. I would prefer to never visit either LA or NYC if at all avoidable, which is an entirely different problem. At least where I live, poop all over the rural-ish sidewalk is almost certainly cattle and not human poop.
Obviously, the most economic solution to a 1000 mile a day trip would be renting a car/van/truck. Far cheaper to rent something I'll only use once a decade than to buy it. Would be rather like buying my own personal 747 as a commuter vehicle on the off chance I decide to visit Ireland again sometime in the next 20 years ... probably cheaper in the long run just to buy airline tickets to Ireland than to try to buy and maintain and insure my own 747.
(Score: 1) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday October 01, @11:03PM
Not sure where that came from - is all or most of your driving in 50 or 55 mph zones? Not so around here. Arkansas is a bit backwards, with virtually all rural and tertiary roads posted at 55 mph. But Texas, Oklahoma, and Louisiana are almost all posted at 65 or 70. And, people only do the speed limit when they think the cops are watching. Yesterday on the interstate in Texas, the posted limit was 75, I was doing 80, and people were passing me doing 85 and 90. It certainly doesn't take ten hours to travel 500 miles in these parts.
As for driving 10 (or more) hours at a time - I'm too old for that now. But, back in the day, 18 to 20 hours was doable.
“I have become friends with many school shooters” - Tampon Tim Walz
(Score: 2) by mcgrew on Tuesday October 01, @04:15PM (1 child)
Commuting to work would put a strain on EV ranges in many cases.
How many people do you know with a hundred mile commute, a two hundred round trip? The EV I had went 200 miles fairly easily.
Poe's Law [nooze.org] has nothing to do with Edgar Allen Poetry
(Score: 1) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday October 01, @05:59PM
How many people have a commute over 100 miles? TBH, my initial response of "a lot" isn't quite right. Thinking hard about it - it's probably 1 family in 40 or 50. I've done it three times in my life. Construction workers all around me do that routinely. Anyone who drives a service truck of any sort to work (automotive repair, electrical, boiler repair, welding, construction, whatever) routinely "commutes" round trip over 200 miles.
Obviously, I can't speak for all rural people out here in flyover country. There are a lot of people who live in Texarkana who just don't drive very much. No matter where they live in America, people who only drive 100 miles per week will be well served by a vehicle with a 200 mile range.
“I have become friends with many school shooters” - Tampon Tim Walz
(Score: 2) by Freeman on Tuesday October 01, @02:48PM (2 children)
From what I've seen, the EV Hummer is fun to use, but kinda horrible to drive on the highway.
Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
(Score: 2) by mcgrew on Tuesday October 01, @04:37PM (1 child)
The Hummer, gas or electric, is almost as butt-ugly as that Tesla "truck". And if it sucks on the highway, it's incredibly poorly designed and built.
Poe's Law [nooze.org] has nothing to do with Edgar Allen Poetry
(Score: 1) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday October 01, @06:06PM
Actually, I think the Hummer looks kinda cool. My major complaint is similar to my complaint with a huge, hulking Dodge Ram, and the big 3/4 ton Ford vans. It's big, intimidating looking, and requires an inordinate amount of attention to keep it within it's lane. There are a lot of 18-wheelers that are better designed for overall visibility, and easier to keep within it's proper lane. I'll agree with you that the Tesla truck is pretty damned ugly.
“I have become friends with many school shooters” - Tampon Tim Walz
(Score: 3, Insightful) by mcgrew on Tuesday October 01, @04:08PM
Anyone out in the country should be able to install the necessary charging infrastructure.
That "necessary charging infrastructure" only applied to Teslas. The Hyundai I bought last year plugged into the 110v outlet that was on the side of my house when I moved in.
The anti-AV lobby is huge. It's not just the oil industry, it's the auto manufacturers, auto mechanics, auto parts stores... it's not unlike a century ago when cars took over buggies, except that the car's advantages were obvious, the EV's are kept hidden by the manufacturers, because one of its advantages is its drive train has one moving part rather than thousands. The dealer and maintenance people lose the dealer to junkyard gravy train on replacement parts.
Other advantages are handling. All that weight under the floorboards gives it crazy great handling because of the low center of gravity. I've been driving since 1968 and never drove a car that handled anywhere near as well.
Braking, too. The regenerative engine braking is far better than friction brakes, and EVs have both. Again, I've never driven a car that braked anywhere near as well as that EV.
The biggest car I ever owned was a '74 Le Mans. The Hyundai was quite a bit smaller, but far roomier.
Don't expect the auto industry to tell you this, most of their vast fortunes comes from replacement parts. EVs fuck up their business model. And there are a lot more advantages, like almost instant heat in the winter, and the reason I bought it in the first place, so I wouldn't have to babysit it in the snow while it fueled, I plugged the EV into my house and went inside.
It got totaled in August and I put a ten year old Subaru on a credit card. After driving an EV for a year the noise and vibration that I never noticed before is maddening! I can't wait to get another one. That EV was the best car I ever owned and can't wait to get another one.
I'm in total favor of making half of all new cars EVs, because they're REALLY hard to find. Dealers don't want them, they lose the broken parts gravy train.
Poe's Law [nooze.org] has nothing to do with Edgar Allen Poetry
(Score: 5, Insightful) by aim on Tuesday October 01, @08:27AM (9 children)
My take on the drop of sales in the EU:
- loads of FUD about EVs.
- the offer by carmakers is mostly SUVs, which is not to everyone's taste.
- the offer is mostly heavy, expensive vehicles, hardly any compact or small cars.
- the only cheap(ish) EVs you'll find are from Dacia (low-cost Renault, really) or essentially unknown chinese car makers.
- incentives for buying EVs are running out
- loaded early adopters already have their EVs and aren't currently in the market for another EV (unless they crashed the previous one)
- especially in Germany: high prices for electricity, especially for fast charging.
- for most charging options you need some sort of subscription, instead of just charging and paying for it as you would for a fill of gas.
@Car industry: hear what I'm saying? Do diversify the offer. Enable charging without subscription. We don't need overly complex features, no need whatsoever for self-driving, drop the all-touchscreen interfaces or at the very least, return to classic buttons for the usual functions. And don't trust too much in your statistics. If people are buying SUVs, it's because you're not leaving them any other options.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday October 01, @10:26AM (4 children)
Based on reality. I'll admit that it's interesting that we're getting factoids like how many gallons of water it takes to put out a Tesla fire now. But a bunch of these are real problems - like range issues and long term costs like replacement of battery packs.
Why do the customers buy these things? Customer choice is neglected here.
An unintended consequence of mandating renewables and ending nuclear (Energiewende [wikipedia.org]). It wouldn't be the first time a green program sabotages another green program IMHO.
(Score: 2) by Unixnut on Tuesday October 01, @10:38AM
Also Germany (and Europe generally) has been cutting subsidies for EV's. The collapse in sales mirrors the reduction in subsidies, which shows that outside of a minority of EV fans the majority of people who bought EVs did so because the government paid them to. The moment the government stopped paying them, they stopped buying them.
I remember a few years ago when the UK reduced the subsidies for EVs, the forum I was reading was full of complaints about how their "EV cost more to run than ICE now" thanks to not getting the subsidies. They only cared about the running costs for EVs, nothing else. The moment EVs got more expensive to run people were saying they were going to sell the EV and go back to ICE.
Another problem is that a large amount of people seem to think electricity comes out of a socket. They don't consider that electricity needs to be generated. So if you move to a BEV, you have just switched your energy source to electricity. So now there is higher demand for electricity, so prices go up. The more people switch to BEVs the higher electricity prices will go, ruining the "cheaper to run than ICE" concept completely.
(Score: 2) by mcgrew on Tuesday October 01, @04:46PM (2 children)
But a bunch of these are real problems - like range issues and long term costs like replacement of battery packs.
Range issues go away with enough public chargers, which the US simply doesn't have. The one I had would go over 200 miles on a charge, and I haven't driven that far without a rest since I was thirty.
When the battery lasts for 300,000 to 500,000 miles, the interior will be shredded long before the battery bites the dust. Meanwhile, you've had absolutely no expensive drive train maintenance and are spending four to five times less on fuel.
Poe's Law [nooze.org] has nothing to do with Edgar Allen Poetry
(Score: 2) by VLM on Tuesday October 01, @09:41PM
The growth rate has been insane over the last decade or so. I think every food store in my area has a fast charger and at least one has one of those Tesla super-charger things.
It's gone from being a once in awhile you see one event, or a novelty, to they now seem to literally be everywhere.
Google maps reports 9 charger stations in my city of 100K+ depending on exact borders. Some crappy 6 KW plugs, some 250K tesla stations. So you get a mix of speed and about one per 10K residents right now.
Food stores, restaurants, and now it seems every little car dealer has a charger. I suppose if you're selling new/used EVs you'd want infra to charge them and to test charging them, so I guess every podunk car dealer needs one now. Probably, every car mechanic will have one soon. I'm not sure how else you'd test/repair an EV.
If I read the google maps correctly we have 16 gas stations. Note that Costco and competitors have a fad of having a gas station in their parking lot. So reaching parity relatively soon.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday October 02, @11:35PM
I presently drive a Subaru Crosstrek which can go 500 miles on a charge of gasoline. I don't drive that far without a rest, but I bet my rests are shorter than yours.
As to a rest, how long are your recharges? Slower increases battery life, right?
(Score: 2) by mcgrew on Tuesday October 01, @04:41PM (3 children)
@Car industry: hear what I'm saying?
EVs ruin their business model. They make more money on drive train maintenance than the initial sale of the vehicle. EV drive trains need no maintenance and are losers for the auto industry. The only winner in an EV sale is the buyer.
Poe's Law [nooze.org] has nothing to do with Edgar Allen Poetry
(Score: 2) by fliptop on Wednesday October 02, @12:45AM (2 children)
You may be right about the drive train, however all EVs I've seen at the shop use the same technology for suspension, steering and hydraulic brakes as ICE. Those are the parts that need to be replaced more often than anything drive train related. Hybrids still have cooling systems and consequently belts and hoses, and they still need tune ups.
Go into any parts store in the US and look behind the counter. Most of what's on the shelf will be brake, steering and suspension related. What you won't see are engines, cylinder heads or transmissions. The only drive train related parts there might be axles and U-joints, wheel bearings too if you consider those part of the drive train. And they will be a small part of their inventory.
Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by pe1rxq on Wednesday October 02, @07:06AM (1 child)
If you go into any pharmacy what kind of medicine do you see? Not a single thing for do-it-yourself surgery. Also not a single thing for setting broken bones yourself or a home-sutering kit. Based on those observations I guess it seems fair to you that the only medical problems are cough and pain related?
(Score: 2) by fliptop on Wednesday October 02, @10:18AM
The parent's point was that if you buy an EV your TCO will go down compared to an ICE. My point was that the parts that take the most abuse still use the same technology as ICE and therefore still need to be maintained and replaced.
Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Rosco P. Coltrane on Tuesday October 01, @09:34AM (3 children)
I would GLADLY buy an EV. But I won't - or any other car in fact - and I'll stick to older vehicles because modern automobiles are dystopian privacy nightmares on wheels.
That's another factor that probably matters to more than a few potential buyers like me who might be on the fence.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by turgid on Tuesday October 01, @12:18PM (1 child)
Can you disconnect the cameras and microphones?
I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent [wikipedia.org].
(Score: 4, Insightful) by weirsbaski on Tuesday October 01, @04:13PM
I seem to remember this article discussed on SoylentNews just 3 weeks ago. There was nothing in the fine article about the microphone-abuse being EV specific.
https://therecord.media/ford-patent-application-in-vehicle-listening-advertising [therecord.media]
(Score: 3, Touché) by mcgrew on Tuesday October 01, @05:23PM
Agreed, new cars are horrible for criminals.
Poe's Law [nooze.org] has nothing to do with Edgar Allen Poetry
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Thexalon on Tuesday October 01, @11:27AM (5 children)
The main idea behind EVs is that you can have car transport without emissions at the cars, so then you can maybe replace the electric generation with renewables, and then you're moving people without burning fossil fuels directly at least.
But there are other options, like:
- Telecommuting / remote work, which would eliminate a lot of traffic completely.
- Bicycles for short-distance trips. There are lots of parts of the world that do that really well, but the Netherlands really demonstrates what's possible there.
- Busses and trains for longer trips. 1 bus = 25-40 cars if the route is popular enough. 1 train = hundreds of cars, again if the route is popular enough.
- Modernizing freight rail to be a good alternative to long-distance trucking.
All that's existing technology, and would make at least as much of a difference as going from gas-powered vehicles to EVs. But we don't do that because of the stigma of traveling via any means other than a car or airplane, all because that might put you in close proximity to people you find undesirable.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by ikanreed on Tuesday October 01, @05:11PM (4 children)
Yeah, but the problem with that is that we've designed the entirety of American society top-to-bottom as inefficiently as possible to help fund the vehicle industry for like 80 years now.
It's all well and good to say "Ride the bus or train", but it's another to actually do so when home are scattered across low density suburbs with purposely circuitous streets, and every destination is separated from every other destination with mutli-acre parking lots.
It's all well and good to say "Ride a bike", but it's another to actually do it on a road where everyone else is driving 4.5 ton pickup trucks 20-over the already high speed limits, and your space for biking is a literal gutter.
(Score: 2) by mcgrew on Tuesday October 01, @05:29PM (2 children)
Also, driving a gasoline car from here to St Louis costs ten bucks in gas. An EV it's $2, hybrid $3-4. I took a train there about twenty years ago and it cost SIXTY BUCKS. Fares are far too high to use public transportation unless you're as rich as Al Gore.
Poe's Law [nooze.org] has nothing to do with Edgar Allen Poetry
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 01, @09:02PM
Like public healthcare, this impossible problem cannot be solved. Case closed.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Thexalon on Wednesday October 02, @02:40AM
So I'm guessing that "here" is approximately 50-100 miles from St Louis, based on your gas estimates.
The train heading to St Louis from 3 different directions (Chicago, Little Rock, and Kansas City) from about that distance is currently $40-45 one way, not $60.
And then there are the costs you left out of your estimate, including:
- Depreciation on the car: About 30 cents per mile in 2024 per the IRS, or $30 for a 100-mile trip.
- Parking, which could run from anywhere from $0 to $30 depending on where exactly in town you're trying to get to and when.
- Depending on how frequently you're making this hypothetical trip, and how frequently you're using the car for other trips, there's a question of whether you need to own a car at all if you're opting for public transit. Because if you don't, that's insurance, any parking you have to pay for wherever "here" is, the either $$$ to buy the car outright or the monthly car payment, etc etc go away.
- Lucky for you, no tolls were involved. Because I know from experience those can easily get into the $15-20 range for longer trips.
All of a sudden, driving doesn't look so cost effective, does it?
And before you say "subsidies!", the US and state governments spend about 100 times as much ($260 billion) on building and maintaining roads for your car as they do on Amtrak ($2.4 billion). And that's with an Amtrak-friendly president.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 2) by Thexalon on Wednesday October 02, @02:58AM
You are right that in order to really make that shift, we'd have to consciously choose at least a local government level to spend infrastructure money and land differently.
There are countries in the world that made that choice, including countries where cars dominated transportation for decades, and after a decade or two of that you could most anywhere you want by bike and rail and bus. It wouldn't be hard to imagine, for instance, a system where the main arterial road in your area has a fairly frequent bus route going up and down it, and if that was cheap enough you might opt for that rather than driving down it (and linking to other arterial-road busses and a train or longer-distance bus for going further), and if enough people opted for that bus you could take a lot of cars off the road doing that, which would lead to having space for a dedicated bus lane for those busses, and maybe a protected bike lane along the side.
Although I'll admit that for the worst of cul-de-sac suburbia, where the streets are a maze of twisty wide passages all alike, part of that project would probably involve turning a 10-foot wide section of somebody's lawns into a bike / foot path for those living in those developments to get to the arterial bus routes (where, presumably, you could put a fairly cheap but effective bike rack) for an appropriate amount of money.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by j-beda on Tuesday October 01, @12:45PM
So "only" one third of consumers intend on purchasing an EV, and it is a disaster?
Inventory has "grown by 350%" isn't a very informative metric - what was the base? Inventory was almost zero fairly recently.
Incidentally, following the links behind the "350%" and the "92 day supply" numbers leads to an article from July of 2023 - what does today's actual data show?
https://www.axios.com/2023/07/10/unsold-electric-cars-are-piling-up-on-dealer-lots [axios.com]
EV's make up an increasing fraction of the cars on the road in virtually every market. Yes, in some markets, EV sales are lower than recent projections, and markets are finding it difficult to figure out what to price them at and how their values will impact the leasing and used-car market. But this is not the end of the world, nor even the end of the EV marketplace.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by cblood on Tuesday October 01, @01:27PM (4 children)
Funny how Tesla seems to make money on every car they sell. It is just the legacy companies that can't figure it out. Yet another piece of propaganda supporting the oil industry. They failed to mention that EV adoption is STILL GROWING, just at a slightly slower rate in this backwards country. The 100% tariff on China's EVs should tell you everything you need to know.
Electric cars are the future. The pathetic cronys that control our auto industries got caught napping. In more advanced countries, EVs are very popular. The vast majority of current owners have no intention of going back. They have tipped the scale past 50% in some countries. All the fake propaganda about supply chains and conflict minerals is nowhere near as big an issue as it is made out to be.
I expected more from this community. Try and pay attention and know when you are being conned.
(Score: 2) by jon3k on Tuesday October 01, @05:31PM
It's just FUD. The reason they lose money is because of all the R&D and tooling cost to get things going. Tesla lost money early on, too. This is by design not some Chicken-Little-Sky-is-Falling stuff.
(Score: 2) by mcgrew on Tuesday October 01, @05:35PM
Funny how Tesla seems to make money on every car they sell. It is just the legacy companies that can't figure it out.
Oh, they figured it out. That's why they HATE EVs. The piston drive train is an inefficient, unreliable Rube Goldberg contraption with thousands of moving parts. An EV drive train is its motor with one moving part and needs no maintenance.
The established car folks don't want to lose the dealer to graveyard gravy train. That earns more for them than the original sale of the vehicle.
Poe's Law [nooze.org] has nothing to do with Edgar Allen Poetry
(Score: 2) by DadaDoofy on Wednesday October 02, @03:01PM (1 child)
"The vast majority of current owners have no intention of going back."
Barely a majority. Of current EV owners in the US, 46% would not buy another one. And those are just the ones who admit it.
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2024/jun/22/46-of-us-electric-car-owners-want-to-switch-back-t/ [washingtontimes.com]
(Score: 2) by j-beda on Thursday October 03, @08:49PM
I do wonder how the survey was conducted. Nobody I know who has purchased an EV has any plans on switching back to gas, so a number that is more than 40% is hard to reconcile with that experience.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by r_a_trip on Tuesday October 01, @01:50PM (3 children)
There's more than one way to Rome, but governments seem to be myopic when it comes to solutions. Decree that the world must become electric and thinking you are done is of course a recipe for disaster. The infrastructure for BEVs isn't there. Electric grids can't bear the extra load without extensive investments. Charging stations still need to be built. Current battery technology is dependent on decidedly expensive and finite compounds. BEVs themselves don't have enough price segmentation. BEVs for the common man still have driving range issues. Automotive manufacturers don't have enough experience to build EVs efficiently in large scale.
Everybody seems to be blind to the glaring elephant in the room. The 1.2 billion ICE passenger cars currently outstanding. These are not going anywhere, any time soon. Instead of banging on about EVs (currently only 27 million in the wild), why not make a real dent in the problem and try to reduce the emissions of those 1.2 billion ICE cars? Putting a bit of ethanol in the gasoline was a good start, but there are more ways. MTG (methanol to gas), XTL (anything to liquid) for diesel. Ramp up production of those and mix it in with the fossil fuels. Since MTG/XTL is 90% less CO2 than outright fossil fuel, this would make a bigger dent than a handful of BEVs in comparison.
Multiple solutions and pragmatism would do a load of good and save a lot of energy and CO2 emissions by not prematurely obsoleting ICE cars. Now where do we get politicians with common sense and a connection to reality?
(Score: 2) by pe1rxq on Tuesday October 01, @03:32PM
The solutions you give are either incredibly inefficient, don't scale to anything resembling industrial scale or both.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by mcgrew on Tuesday October 01, @06:02PM (1 child)
Electric grids can't bear the extra load without extensive investments.
That's a myth. Pistons are incredibly inefficient. An EV will go twenty miles on the electricity it takes to refine a gallon of gasoline, and that gasoline has to be transported thousands of miles, pumped through a pipeline with electricity and then to the gas station in a 5 mpg diesel tanker, while transporting electricity is almost free.
If every car magically became electric tomorrow, it would lessen the load on the grid.
why not make a real dent in the problem and try to reduce the emissions of those 1.2 billion ICE cars?
Because it would cost too much to anyone not a multimillionaire.
Putting a bit of ethanol in the gasoline was a good start
Bullshit, it takes more fuel to produce that ethanol than the ethanol contains itself. Do you have any idea how much diesel fuel a combine uses?
Multiple solutions and pragmatism would do a load of good and save a lot of energy and CO2 emissions by not prematurely obsoleting ICE cars.
Pistons are already obsolete. The EV is to the piston car what a Model-T was to a buggy. The environment is the very least of the EV's many advantages.
If you're an auto mechanic, you have my sympathy; EVs need very little maintenance and their drive trains need none at all. The ICE's biggest advantage is to the manufacturer, with its dealer to junkyard gravy train on replacement parts.
Cable TV is obsolete, too, but like piston cars, few have noticed.
Poe's Law [nooze.org] has nothing to do with Edgar Allen Poetry
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 01, @09:04PM
Shhhhh, don't talk about junkyards!!! We're talking about the EV graveyard.