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There are a lot of things in life that we keep safely tucked away that we hope we'll never need to use. Our smoke alarms, for instance, or our emergency funds. These are the very things that we can't neglect, though, because when we need them, we really, really need them. Another solid example for drivers is a spare tire. Are you one of those unfortunate souls who has been stuck on an unfamiliar road late at night while waiting for your mechanic to hook you up with a spare? This topic is sure to strike a real chord with you, then.
In November 2023, the UK's RAC reported that it had reviewed "equipment lists of more than 300 car models across 28 brands — everything from the smallest superminis to the largest 4x4s," and what did the British auto servicing brand discover? Less than 3% of those models were sold new with a spare wheel included in the price.
For the manufacturer, of course, there's a money-saving benefit to limiting production of spares, while there are also some performance-related reasons to dispense with them. They add weight when kept in the back, and because they aren't always offered as full-size spares, they can limit performance while being driven on. As they're something of a last resort, drivers may not be inclined to use them anyway, which also limits the call for them. There are also more lightweight and convenient approaches to dealing with a flat, which is a further factor in the reduction of spare tires.
If you were a fan of the fearsome muscle cars of the mid-to-late twentieth century, you surely still lament the fact that these mighty models became increasingly less practical, and then all but impossible to drive as a result of such paradigm shifts as the Clean Air Act. Enacted in 1970, the EPA reports that "this legislation authorized the development of comprehensive federal and state regulations to limit emissions from both stationary (industrial) sources and mobile sources," and there weren't many mobile sources more majestic than the Dodge Charger R/T (pictured here) and its kind. Fuel increasingly had to be cleaner, engines needed to be more efficient and generally smaller, and the trend for lighter, more practical models began.
As important as a spare tire can be, there's no getting around the fact that it can add considerable weight to a vehicle: 44 pounds (20 kg) or so depending on the type of vehicle. This complicates the matter of hitting eco-friendlier targets. This could be seen as an advantage of the trend away from spare tires, having a potential positive effect on a vehicle's fuel economy, but the benefits of this compared to the risks associated with driving without a spare tire are a matter for the individual driver to decide on.
After all, spares can certainly be hefty and unwieldy to work with at the roadside. Another part of the reasoning is that lots of drivers don't use them, which means they're often dead weight. Additionally, the vehicle not only has to store the wheel itself, but also the means to actually use it should the need arise. The jack alone can be quite the bulky accessory.
It's also important to note that EVs and hybrids are becoming increasingly popular. Cox Automotive notes that 1.3 million EVs were sold in the United States in 2024. The thing about such vehicles, though, is that while they don't have a bulky ICE, their batteries typically make them heavier than their gas or diesel counterparts. That main battery is the most crucial, largest, and weightiest component, and in order to accommodate it, space comes at a real premium in an electric vehicle.
As a result, seemingly extraneous features, such as spare tires, can become even more of a rarity. As ArtCenter College of Design executive director of transportation systems and design, Geoff Wardle, put it to the Los Angeles Times in August 2023, "batteries, electrical systems control units or hydrogen tanks ... encroach into the traditional places that spare tires are found: under the trunk floor."
With these vehicles being heavier than their gas-powered alternatives, the weight added by a spare tire may be more of a concern. The difference may not be as stark as you might expect, though, depending on the make and model: The electric Genesis G80, for example, weighs approximately 15% more than its ICE equivalent. Nonetheless, it's one contributing factor to bear in mind. According to the Los Angeles Times, a query about EV spare tires prompted a response from Honda claiming that "if the vehicle is in an accident, the spare tire can cause damage to the electric battery which could cause a failure in the battery." Perhaps this explains Tesla's stance on spare tires.
With the knowledge that their new vehicle purchase isn't likely to come with a spare tire, drivers can take comfort in the fact that their absence doesn't mean that they're entirely without options. Run-flat tires are a common solution. Well, more of a bandage than a solution. Run-flats aren't exactly throwaway, but they won't resolve your issue for the long term. Michelin reports that these are the standard alternative over full spares for up to around 14% of new vehicles, but warns that, after one has suffered a puncture, it can typically only be driven on for a maximum of around 50 miles before losing its crucial "fins," small raised sections in the sidewall that directs air and redistributes heat that would otherwise destroy the rubber.
The wonderfully named donut spares can be substituted as space-saving measures, too, and driving performance on them may surprise drivers. As Ford Vehicle Dynamics Team's Jamie Cullen told Car And Driver in 2017, they're intended to "come as close to the standard tire's performance and response as possible. Mini spares use an aggressive compound and minimum tread depth to achieve those results." Spares are not designed to be driven on for long, though, as noted.
Puncture kits are another space and cost-saving solution manufacturers offer, but there are certain jobs that a more humble repair kit just isn't equipped for. As Toyota Magazine UK states, such a set "shouldn't be used if the puncture is more than 4mm in diameter, if the wheel rim has been damaged, or if the tyre has been flat or running at low pressure for a prolonged period."
In the auto industry, it should always be driver, passenger, and pedestrian safety first and foremost. Unfortunately, there are always complicating factors to this. Whichever angle you consider it from, limiting access to spare tires leaves vehicles more vulnerable on the roads. This is far from new information. In November 2015, the Los Angeles Times quoted managing director of Automotive Engineering and Repair at AAA, John Nielsen, as making the critical point: "AAA responds to more than 4 million calls for flat tire assistance annually," noting that "Flat tires are not a disappearing problem, but spare tires are."
This both increases the strain on services such as AAA providing emergency support and makes drivers more reliant upon those services. When we need a spare, after all, it often tends to happen with no notice at the least convenient moment.
The unfortunate fact is a driver can never be sure what kind of eventuality they might come across. When a tire issue arises, you might get away with it relatively lightly with only minor damage, or you might not. All you can do is hope that the interim measure available to you gets you to where you need to be, or that a timely servicing is in the offing. In any case, it's always best to keep some essential items with you in your car in case of a flat.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by krishnoid on Sunday March 23, @04:55PM (11 children)
If you can call (or SMS or Internet) for assistance from the side of the road, maybe that's how people handle these kinds of problems?
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Frosty Piss on Sunday March 23, @05:21PM (5 children)
This does not address the issue of the fake tire "donut". I have AAA, and a real spare. I'm both lazy and old, so if I get a flat, I call AAA and they send someone out to change the flat with my REAL tire and I go on my way, not worried about how close a tire store is.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by JoeMerchant on Sunday March 23, @08:28PM (4 children)
This is in the UK, realistically you could circumnavigate the isle twice on that donut before it failed (regardless of the 80km max range printed on the sidewall.)
The reality is that the people who know how to change a tire are too decrepit and lazy to actually do it anymore, and a supermajority of those physically capable of changing a tire are too clueless or insecure in their abilities to do it themselves instead of calling a professional.
In my life I have had too many certified professional mechanics screw things up that I have done correctly for myself to bother with letting them try things I know how to do and being inconvenienced by their shortcomings on my vehicle in the future.
In Westpondia there are far too many places we drive where and when I wouldn't want to depend on a cell phone summoned "service professional" to repair a flat tire.
🌻🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 24, @08:02AM (1 child)
I can and have changed tyres before. BUT in many scenarios, too many other drivers can make changing a tyre a significantly dangerous activity... e.g. they crash into you and/or the stopped vehicle.
You can usually drive a bit on a flat but sometimes not far enough to get out of the danger zone. In which case it's best to call someone suitable so they can park THEIR vehicle some distance behind your vehicle, set up the cones, flashing lights, etc. Then only do the tyre stuff (whether you do it yourself if you don't trust them, or you let them do it while watching from a safer position). That way those other drivers are more likely to hit the other vehicle first.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday March 24, @10:52PM
Look up the history (and an old photo) of the Sunshine Skyway bridge.
In 1977 we had a Firestone blowout (just like they all did in the Indy 500) on the Skyway about 3/4 mile in. Highway patrol advised us to drive the remaining 3+ miles, including up and over the channel, on the flat. We did, arrived on the other side with no tread, but also no rim damage.
🌻🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by vux984 on Monday March 24, @07:29PM (1 child)
I do winter/summer tire swaps at home on a couple cars. So I can and do change tires. But for most people, including me, I'm not convinced having a spare in the car is generally worth it.
Just doing the summer winter swaps in my garage is frequently not easy. The wheels and nuts are frequently frozen on and/or torqued hard by shop air wrenches. In my garage I've got the car jacked up on a sturdy jack, with wrench with a long handle for leverage, penetrating oil, and a rubber mallet to knock the wheels loose.
In 4 flats over the last 20 years (including sometimes as passenger in someone else's car). Only once was I able to change the tire and keep going. Another time the rinky-dink jack and 8 inch tire wrench in the car kit was simply woefully inadequate to the task of actually getting the wheel off, and I ended up getting a ride back home to come back with a more robust tool kit for the job.
The other times, that wasn't an option and we ended up calling a service.
Heh, and in the case of a coworker with a Porsche Boxster, with an inflatable collapsible spare donut, they actually got it on before discovering that was nowhere in the car to put the original wheel, except on the passenger seat which was less than ideal for the passenger (and given it was raining and the wheel was filthy with dirt, brake dust, etc) and without a bag to put it in, this was less than ideal for the boxster too). They ended up calling a cab to follow them with the wheel home.
The 'be prepared crowd' would have your car equipped for a camping trip apocalypse everytime you took it out of the garage. Flashlights, garbage bags, rain attire, blankets, food & water, toilet paper, air compressor, wheel blocks, spare tire, tools, crank radio, usb battery pack, solar charger, matches, candles, bear spray, more tools, fire extinquisher, seatbelt knife, window breaker, spare keys, whistle, sand bags, tire chains, road cones, road flares, satellite emegency messenger / beacon ... Yeah, if you are going off the beaten path fill your boots.
But the average person, what's the balance? Maybe for most people a satellite emergency messenger which can summon help in any situation anywhere is a better option than a rinky-dink spare tire kit that is only useful for exactly one situation, and may or may not be up to the task even for that.
Is a flat tire so far and away the most common failure that its worth lugging around equipment for it. Tires have gotten more reliable over the 100 years; random flats aren't as common as they once were. Sure you can still pick up a nail, but any number of things can strand a car, fuel pump failure, battery/charging system failure, even losing the keys/fob. When i lived rural, people sliding off the road in ice and snow and getting hopelessly stuck was far more common than flats.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday March 24, @10:56PM
In my lifetime, I have changed flats on the road with spares about 15 times, 12 of them in other people's cars and the one I owned we had recently purchased used.
I get plenty of slow leak nails and similar problems that I can address at home, but rarely seem to need my own spare on the road.
🌻🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 3, Insightful) by zocalo on Sunday March 23, @05:40PM (2 children)
As someone who often drives or treks in such places, I'd always make sure to have a few options should the worst happen, even if that means resort to offline maps (digital or paper) to figure out which way is your best bet to walk for help or get a signal. Also as with hiking or trekking, if you know you're likely to be out in the sticks it never hurts to let someone else know your plans who can raise the alarm if you're overdue as well.
UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
(Score: 5, Interesting) by JoeMerchant on Sunday March 23, @08:32PM (1 child)
Semi related: a friend of ours had a problem with their on star system while in a parking garage with no wireless connectivity for the on star. So the theft deterrent locked all the wheels, forcing the summoning of a tow truck both short enough to fit in the garage and capable of getting dollies under the wheels for towing to a location where on star could remote unlock the vehicle.
Yet another reason to have a custom ECU with zero connectivity outside the vehicle.
🌻🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2, Interesting) by anubi on Monday March 24, @06:23AM
What a bummer. I have a 30 year old Ford E350 full size van and there are many parking garages I cannot get into. This old thing is built like a tank. Drives like one too.
I figured maybe they had to send a Datsun in with four wheel doilies and a jack to drag the guy out...guess he couldn't even open the door or unlock the steering either. Can't figure out why anyone would want a new car, seeing how crippled the new cars are right off the showroom floor, how easy they break, and how expensive to fix. Geez, one good pothole will do the car in. They don't even have bumpers anymore. Too delicate for me...no telling what I am apt to put in this thing. How about three big dogs?
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 2) by turgid on Sunday March 23, @09:00PM
Good luck if you're doing the NC500.
I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent [wikipedia.org].
(Score: 2) by Beryllium Sphere (r) on Wednesday March 26, @02:43AM
I can change a tire in less time than it takes AAA to respond, and the less time exposed to the dangers of being parked om the freeway shoulder the better.
(Score: 3, Funny) by Fnord666 on Sunday March 23, @04:59PM (3 children)
Loop, Endless: see Endless Loop
Endless Loop: see Loop, Endless
Every browser I tried resulted in a “too many http redirects” error.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 24, @01:40AM
Even good old archive.ph (aka archive.today) gave up after several tries.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by ledow on Monday March 24, @12:52PM (1 child)
I have to say that that error is the bane of many website's life because the redirects are not always under their control and often necessary (e.g. redirecting HTTP visitors to HTTPS), and even major software packages like Wordpress, they are a huge problem.
It should really be up to the user how many redirects they're prepared to accept (redirect loops - that's another matter entirely - but if there's 5 redirects and I want to let it keep going... why not a dialog saying that? Or a switch to change the default to 10, or whatever?), but I've never seen a configurable item for that in a browser.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by ChrisMaple on Tuesday March 25, @12:05AM
I don't know if this works, but firefox has network.http.redirection-limit set at 20. It can be changed.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by kazzie on Sunday March 23, @05:23PM (5 children)
I bought my current car when it was pushing towards eleven years old.
A spare tyre (plus under-slung carrier) was an option on my model, but my car had been sold with a bottle of tyre goop to repair minor punctures. The goop has a five year shelf life, so I had no reason to trust it.
A replacement goop bottle from the manufacturer would have been over £100. Instead, for roughly the same price, I got an old spare tyre and carrier, and fitted them myself.
(Score: 2) by number11 on Sunday March 23, @05:47PM
Pretty much the same, here. My 2015 car came with a well to hold a (doughnut) spare, but the manufacturer provided only a styrofoam tray that contained a 12V tire pump and a can of goop. Cheaper, and less weight (consequently, slightly less fuel consumption). Wins all around for the manufacturer. I replaced those with a real doughnut spare and a jack, purchased off eBay. I'm now on my second set of tires, and have never needed to use that spare. But I'm glad it's there. I suppose I really should check and see if it still has air in it.
(Score: 4, Informative) by number11 on Sunday March 23, @05:52PM (1 child)
Incidentally, you can probably get a can of goop from stores that sell auto parts, and it doesn't cost much. But if you use it, tire repair shops will hate it, and it may destroy the remote pressure sensor that's inside the tire.
(Score: 2) by Beryllium Sphere (r) on Wednesday March 26, @02:48AM
I asked a tire store about this and their attitude was hey, it's a messy business. I'll believe others have a different opionion.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by Unixnut on Sunday March 23, @06:43PM
My car also came with the goop, and I can say that in all the years of driving (many thousands of miles touring Europe mostly) I've had 5 flat tyres, in each case the goop was useless and I had to be towed to the nearest tyre garage and leave the car there until they can replace the tyre.
Yes, for my next tour I've bought a full size spare tyre as well, although I am not sure there will be enough space to fit it in the wheel well. The other issue is that I have to find a jack that will suit the car. Some of them use the sills to raise the car up, while others have jacking points. We will have to see how things go. Even if I don't get the jack just having the spare wheel means the breakdown recovery would only need to replace the wheel rather than tow me to a garage where I wait for the replacement tyre to be fitted.
It annoys me that modern cars don't come with a spare wheel (or even the space for one), every time I had a tyre go I had to wait between 3 and 7 hours for the recovery to show up and tow me to the garage, plus the day or two for them to get round to replacing the tyre and me collecting the car. For me the loss of my time far exceeds the cost of hauling the spare wheel + tools around "just in case", but that option is increasingly being denied to me with newer cars.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by JoeMerchant on Sunday March 23, @08:36PM
There was a period of about six weeks that my wife was coming home with roofing nails in one or both of her right side tires about twice a week.
I used a $10 puncture repair kit (the kind with a T-handle reamer and gooey strips to insert and trim at the tread surface) to repair all of those nail holes. I thought I might have to buy a second kit but eventually the nails stopped coming.
🌻🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 5, Insightful) by sjames on Sunday March 23, @06:16PM
I'm sure the admin at slashgear could fix it in a minute, but he had a flat in a no-phone-zone. Currently, he's sitting in the locked car avoiding the gators and concerned about the banjo music he hears in the evening. The goop did nothing. RIP server admin of slashgear.
Given the rapidly falling quality (and honesty) of "professionals" likely to answer your call, we need MORE self-reliance, not less. Whatever jackass decided people don't need a spare any more should be sentenced to spend the rest of his life riding the back roads and providing a good spare to anyone who is stranded.
(Score: 3, Touché) by jelizondo on Sunday March 23, @06:32PM (2 children)
Well, if weigh is the issue for many drivers going on a diet is a better solution, you can get a spare and it would be good for your health. :-)
One of my dogs is about 20 kg, so taking it in the car ruins fuel economy? Jeez, maybe don’t take any passengers or cargo?
Sorry, 44 pounds is not a "considerable weight".
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Sunday March 23, @08:39PM
It's cost more than weight, otherwise car seats would be much lighter than they are.
Yes, the driver losing weight is an easy target, but impossible for the manufacturer to control.
🌻🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 24, @02:03AM
Actually, in some sense, leaving out the spare to save weight is a real thing for the car companies. It has to do with the CAFE (corporate average fuel economy) rules in USA. If companies don't meet the CAFE numbers, there are large fines added to each vehicle produced, so this rule has real teeth.
The test that generates the CAFE ratings uses a chassis dyno and driving schedules (speed/time/distance) to simulate city and highway driving. The dyno is adjusted to the total weight of the car by adding weights to the rollers to simulate the car inertia. If a maker can get their car into the next lower weight class, it will be easier to accelerate the dyno and the tested fuel economy will be improved.
Afaik, that was one of the first reasons to move to mini-spares and then further to the bottle of goop. As noted elsewhere, there are other reasons too, I'm sure the manufacturing cost savings didn't go unnoticed...
With a previous car that I used for lots of long trips, I wanted a full size spare. The mini-spare was in a well that was large enough for a full sized tire. At my first tire replacement I saved the best of the tires I was dumping and had it mounted on a cheap wheel purchased from a junk yard (excuse me, "auto parts recycler"). Had to use it once, the jack & wrench that came with the car worked well enough.
A friend with a BMW station wagon wanted to do the same thing, but his storage well wasn't large enough for a full sized tire. He leaves his spare (mounted on a used wheel) laying in the back of the wagon.
(Score: 4, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 23, @06:47PM (3 children)
Today's world is one of Safety.
Changing a tire is a very, VERY _dangerous_ endeavor! Just think what could go wrong!
In today's Safety-First(TM) world, changing a tire is *far* too dangerous for a driver of an automobile to manage, should be done *only* by a Trained Professional. (3 minutes training required, "Can you change a tire?" "Yeap." "Yer hired.") These professionals will either have a proper tire and/or wheel on hand, or the ability to repair the tire or tow the vehicle to Safety at minimum cost (minimums to be set by tow service, maximums unbounded). Therefore it makes no sense to include a spare tire with a vehicle, and in fact may substantially increase manufacturer liability. For the performance, weight, and efficiency reasons cited, the occupant should call for help and await the arrival of professional assistance.
Areas that lack cell-phone coverage should not be driven in, unless there is satellite service available, for the Safety of the driver and all occupants.
Terms and conditions apply. No user-serviceable parts inside. Warranty void if seal broken. Failure to make regular payments will result in repossession of vehicle. User data, driving data, location data, road-worthiness data, road condition data, weather data, alertness data, elevation data, probable-home location data, probable-work location data, probable-kids' friends' houses data, and all other types of data, *will* be sold to _every_ bidder. Scenarios in which having a spare tire may save a life are disclaimed as Not Our Problem and We Told You So.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by JoeMerchant on Sunday March 23, @08:41PM
See Ivan Ilich's Convivial Tools regarding the second watershed. We are indeed well past the point of serving the customers in automobile maintenance. He called that out 50+ years ago.
🌻🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2, Informative) by khallow on Sunday March 23, @11:22PM
FTFY.
(Score: 2) by JustNiz on Monday March 24, @04:21AM
I hope you're being sarcastic.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by bzipitidoo on Sunday March 23, @06:54PM
As every hypermiler and racer knows, weight decreases performance and fuel economy. The US mandates a lot of safety features that add weight. Such as, the dashboard has to have padding in case someone doesn't use a seat belt. And B-pillars must be strong enough to keep the roof from caving in, in case of a rollover. These regulations prevent US buyers from simply buying vehicles in the Mexican market and bringing them into the US. The US resident is required to bring such a vehicle up to US safety standards, and that adds so much cost and weight it makes it not worth doing.
Another real simple source of additional weight is the desire for a powerful engine. In a stock car, going 200 kph can be dangerous, and so rarely of use that one might as well not have that capability. In the US it's common to have the power to go that fast. To have that, need a bigger, weightier engine. My father had a '67 Chrysler New Yorker with a big old 440 cubic inch (7 liter) engine, with a 4 barrel carburetor. That damned thing guzzled gas. Yeah, that engine could've taken it up to 200 kph. He never did. At 140 kph, started getting vibrations from the wheels not being perfectly balanced, and there was the question of how much more speed the tires could take. And you needed a good road, too.
Weight snowballs too. To support such a big, heavy engine, the frame has to be heavier. Need a heavier power train-- a more robust transmission, axle, and so forth. And then, steering is harder, so, add yet more weight to have power steering.
(Score: 2) by RamiK on Sunday March 23, @07:10PM
Here you go: https://web.archive.org/web/20250320121251/https://www.slashgear.com/1810798/new-cars-no-spare-tires-explained/ [archive.org]
compiling...
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 23, @07:40PM
It's not a "weight saving" thing. It's not a "convenience" thing.
It's the auto manufacturers finding another way to nickel and dime you.
And If you ever find yourself stuck somewhere with a flat tire and no "unnecessary dead weight" spare tire, you'll make sure to pony up for that dead weight every time to make sure it doesn't happen again. Assuming you survive the ordeal.
And TFS (and presumably the whole of TFA) treats this like a *good* thing. Fucking apologists
And the rape of the consumer at the altar of quarterly profits continues apace.
(Score: 4, Funny) by pTamok on Sunday March 23, @10:51PM
Frankly, I have enough of a 'spare tyre' that I would love to be able to remove it and install it on my car instead.
Sadly...
(Score: 5, Insightful) by JustNiz on Monday March 24, @04:24AM (8 children)
Just yet another reason to buy an old car.
Unlike new cars, they don't spy on you and send that data back to the manufacturer and your insurance company either.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Dr Spin on Monday March 24, @08:33AM (7 children)
We in the UK are not allowed to buy old cars because "pollution" - although clearly its not - I had to sell my diesel Peugeot which did over 50MPG and buy a smaller petrol Vauxhall that did about 22MPG because "pollution".
I am quietly confident that burning a gallon of diesel does not produce more than twice the amount of pollution as burning a gallon of petrol. I studied Chemistry.
It looks suspiciously like the "low emission zones" are the result of lobbying (bribery) by the society of motor manufacturers and traders to sell new (and significantly crappier) cars.
As for "Oxides of Nitrogen" - this is what is injected into puff pastry and also known as "laughing gas" - also used to "enhance male performance" - so probably not a total killer.
Is the inability of Americans to produce decent diesel engines also a factor?
Warning: Opening your mouth may invalidate your brain!
(Score: 3, Insightful) by pTamok on Monday March 24, @09:47AM (4 children)
I am reminded of the bloodhound from The Perishers [archive.org].
The pertinent issue with diesel is the production of particulates, and specifically PM10s and PM2.5s, not the amount of CO2 produced. Because diesel is denser than gasoline, it produces more heat per kilo burned in air: see Neutrium: Specific energy and Energy density of fuels [neutrium.net].
Use of appropriate filters can reduce the level of PMs below that of gasoline engines. Which is why banning diesel-fuelled vehicles is irritating to me, because particulate filters would allow us to benefit from the advantages of diesel.
The oxides of nitrogen are various, and while Nitrous Oxide (N2O) is used for making 'whipped cream in a can' and other food-related processing, other oxides (nitric oxide (NO), nitrogen dioxide (NO2) are more immediately harmful. Diesel engines are not necessarily worse than gasoline engines, but require careful engineering to assure that they have low NOx emissions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOx#Biodiesel_and_NOx [wikipedia.org]
The trouble is, the extra engineering needed to manage particulate emissions and nitrogen oxide emissions ends up in a higher capital cost for the vehicle, and an increased ongoing maintenance cost for the particulate filters and urea-system ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_exhaust_fluid [wikipedia.org] ) for reducing the nitrogen oxide emissions. There is a strong incentive for people to bypass or not replace the filters, or not add the fluid needed to treat the exhaust.
There are lots of people who bought diesel-engine cars for their better fuel economy (amongst other things) who are now being penalised for that decision. There are cities in Europe that ban entry of diesel cars. I have sympathy for such people. I don't think the tide will be turned, though.
It turns out that a lot of particulate pollution is generated by tyre-wear, and wear of the road-surface itself. Solving that is likely to be difficult. The easiest way to reduce it is to reduce traffic levels, which will not be popular.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 24, @12:00PM
> It turns out that a lot of particulate pollution is generated by tyre-wear, and wear of the road-surface itself. Solving that is likely to be difficult.
"Solving that is likely to be difficult" if the trend toward BEVs that are heavy and have lots of power continues. Weight leads to more tire (and road) wear, as does more rapid acceleration. There are some signs that a future generation of BEVs will be lighter weight than the current offerings.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 24, @01:01PM (1 child)
Every now and then I hear about urethane tires lasting much longer. Meaning, much less particulate "stuff". Any thoughts / knowledge?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 24, @05:30PM
> ... urethane tires lasting much longer ...
If you mean airless urethane tires (hollow core, injection molded, no cord), they probably could last longer, but they aren't any good for high speed use, the ride is impossibly bad with the stiff sidewalls, compared to a flexible, air supported tire carcass. Great for roller blades and fork lift trucks!
I have not heard of substituting urethane for tire rubber (typically a witches' brew of mostly natural and synthetic rubber) in pneumatic tires with reinforcing cords/belts, but maybe this has been tried??
(Score: 2) by Rich on Monday March 24, @01:18PM
Well, diesel is worse wrt CO2, because the carbon/hydrogen ratio of the longer alkane chains is higher.
On the filters, I switched a 2001 Smart cdi car (direct injection turbo diesel, no filter) to a 2006 model ("open" filter), which made the fuel economy 20% worse. I managed to get in the 3.xl/100km range quite a few times with the older one, while the newer is usuallly in the high 4.xl/100km. The filter gobbled up so much power that they had to change the gear ratios and rev numbers to get the thing going, changes making consumption even worse, while these open filters are said to not reduce particles by much. I wonder whether it, under real life conditions, really emits significantly less particles at all.
And N2O shouild not go into puff pasty, but into a GM-1 system to catch up with all these newfangled electric cars at the traffic lights.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 24, @12:59PM
Not a chemist but I know some things. The nitrous oxides formed in ICEs is very different from "laughing gas" and is quite harmful to the environment. It's formed by heat and pressure. Diesels run much higher compression ratios than gasoline engines (22+:1) hence more NOx. 1960s US cars were reaching compression ratios of 11:1, and higher in very high performance engines. The big EPA emissions hammer came down in 1970 (IIRC) and compression ratios dropped to 8:1 and sometimes less. Efficiency dropped significantly, which led to the reputation of big American gas guzzler. Years and years of improvements and refinements have led to much cleaner, more efficient, and more powerful engines.
BTW, one of the things catalytic converters do is change the bad NOx to "good" NOx. No time to research and post links. Sorry. Late for work...
(Score: 2) by JustNiz on Tuesday March 25, @01:00AM
I beleive you are conflating 2 different issues regarding emissions here.
The first is the usual argument about Co2 and global warming etc. (i,e. harming the climate). Research appears to show that diesel and gasoline cars have broadly similar Co2 emissions.
The 2nd and more immediately important issue are that emissions from gasoline cars are very much cleaner than diesel. Diesels emit relatively large amounts of particulates and other emissions that are carcinogenic (and directly affect human health by causing diseases such as lung cancer), and are also full of poisonous chemicals that more directly affect the environment in other ways.
(Score: 2) by ElizabethGreene on Monday March 24, @06:37PM (2 children)
A 2025 US Domestic Market Tesla Model Y "Legacy" does not include a spare tire, nor is one listed as an accessory for purchase in the online store. There is a spare-shaped hole in the bottom of the trunk though, indicating it was at least a consideration at some point.
The store does offer a Tesla Branded Tire shmoo and inflator package, but it's at a price I'm unwilling to pay so I can't speak to its quality or utility. I have not called the service department to inquire about availability; I've hit my human interaction quota for this year.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 24, @07:10PM (1 child)
If your "spare-shaped hole in the bottom of the trunk" is large enough to fit a full size tire/wheel[1] then call your local junk yard and ask them if they have a Model Y wheel available off a wreck. Bigger yards (I believe) also have a back channel of some sort to check with other yards for parts that they don't have...
Even if you don't want to change a flat tire yourself (and don't carry wrench & jack), when you call AAA to do it, you will have the right wheel/tire available. Otherwise, they usually have to make another trip and it may take awhile (and be expensive) to find one.
[1] You may have to test this by unbolting a wheel and trying it--it's hard to measure the odd shapes involved, including putting the board back on top.
(Score: 2) by ElizabethGreene on Tuesday March 25, @02:15PM
Thanks. The scrapyard will almost certainly be cheaper than the dealer. I wouldn't mind a donut spare to save some weight, if I could find one.
(Score: 2) by ChrisMaple on Tuesday March 25, @12:24AM
Then put them up front!
(Score: 2) by JustNiz on Tuesday March 25, @01:07AM (2 children)
The extra weight argument is laughable. OVer the last few decades, cars have gotten to be about twice as heavy as they ever were, thanks to all the braindead "convenince" functions like
motorized seats etc, yet that fact doesn't seem to concern the car manufacturers at all.
The extra 40lbs of a spare tyre is a drop in the bucket compared to all the extra weight cars now carry.
yes technically the extra weight of a spare tyre affects overall performance etc, just like carrying your shopping home in your car does, but the amount is so negligible that its basically irrelevant and certainly not noticeable to the driver or their wallet.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 25, @01:18AM (1 child)
> cars have gotten to be about twice as heavy as they ever were
That's nearly correct (double), but you missed the main reason for the extra weight -- additional structure to meet crash requirements, and additional size to leave enough crush space to give the required "soft" deceleration on impact. As the speed and types of required crashes increase, the car requires additional crush-able structure, which adds a lot of weight. A good part of why visibility is difficult out of current cars has to do with the rollover test requirements, which require stronger (larger) pillars between the windows to meet the test.
(Score: 2) by janrinok on Tuesday March 25, @05:35AM
I'm not sure why you think that visibility out of cars is difficult nowadays. Perhaps there is something significantly different between the US and European standards. I was always taught to use all my mirrors (internal and external) and then look over the appropriate shoulder when carrying out certain manoeuvres. Visibility is no different now than it was 50 years ago - in fact it is probably better. My car has many built-in devices to warn me of potential threats and dangers (e.g proximity detectors, reversing camera etc).
I think that the desire to have heavily tinted windows has had much more adverse effect than the increase in side column size, well that and some of the pretty shabby driving techniques that some people seem to adopt nowadays. But that is another discussion...
I am not interested in knowing who people are or where they live. My interest starts and stops at our servers.