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Breaking News
posted by n1 on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:00AM   Printer-friendly

France has declared a national state of emergency and has closed its borders after at least 40 people were killed in multiple shootings in Paris.

At least 15 people were killed near the Bataclan arts centre, where up to 60 people are being held hostage. Explosions and gunfire are reported.

Three people were killed in an attack near the Stade de France, with some reports suggesting a suicide blast.

Paris authorities have urged people to stay indoors.

Military personnel are being deployed across Paris.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/11/13/455943961/violence-reported-in-paris
http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/13/world/paris-shooting/index.html

Update #1 [BBC updates]:

Scores of people have been killed in multiple gun and bomb attacks in Paris

At least 100 people are reported to have died inside the Bataclan concert hall in central Paris

Others died in attacks near the Stade de France, where France were playing Germany, and at restaurants

France has declared a national state of emergency and has closed its borders

Paris residents have been asked to stay indoors and military personnel are being deployed across the city

[...] Reuters. quoting an un-named official at Paris City Hall, says the current death toll in Paris is around 140.

Update #2:

According to the Paris prosecutor, of the four assailants who died during the sidge at the Bataclan, three committed suicide by detonating explosive vests. The prosecutor has warned that some of their accomplices may "still be on the loose".

[...] Here is what French president François Hollande told reporters outside the Bataclan concert hall just now: "To all those who have seen these awful things, I want to say we are going to lead a war which will be pitiless. Because when terrorists are capable of committing such atrocities they must be certain that they are facing a determined France, a united France, a France that is together and does not let itself be moved, even if today we express infinite sorrow."


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  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 13 2015, @11:54PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 13 2015, @11:54PM (#262880)

    Isn't multiculturalism great? #refugeeswelcome

    • (Score: 4, Troll) by Ethanol-fueled on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:05AM

      by Ethanol-fueled (2792) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:05AM (#262886) Homepage

      I picked up a recent version of TIME magazine, and of course it was shilling for the refugees. One of the reasons why it said that Europe should accept the refugees...get this...was because immigrants are great innovators and cited Sergei Brin as an example.

      Perhaps one of those able-bodied unskilled military-aged males could invent the next suitcase-clock and stimulate the economy.

      I warned you all about this, but you dismissed me as a racist. Who's the racist now?! Hahahaha. HAHAHAHAH. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAWWWWWW!

      • (Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:17AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:17AM (#262894)

        cited Sergei Brin as an example

        Because Syrians are exactly like Russians, right? I mean, think of all those large Syrian tech companies.

      • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:04AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:04AM (#262943)

        > Who's the racist now?! Hahahaha. HAHAHAHAH. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAWWWWWW!

        Still you.

        But now you are also one of those people taking pleasure in the murder of innocents because you think their deaths have made you a better person.

      • (Score: 4, Informative) by Runaway1956 on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:25AM

        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:25AM (#262987) Journal

        Do you read any of Tom Kratman's work? Try 'The Caliphate'. If the west doesn't grow some balls, and put their house in order, that's where we're going.

        "East is east, and west is west, and never the twain shall meet." Ehhh, that may or may not remain true, but the collision will be devastating if it happens.

        --
        On the plus side, I am completely immune to flash-bang grenades. - Helen Keller
        • (Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:29AM

          by Grishnakh (2831) on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:29AM (#263020)

          I think you need some better terms than "east" and "west".

          When you say "east", I think of China. China is NOT friendly to Muslims, or religion in general, and overall doesn't even like diversity; they're all about the Han dominating everything in their corner of the world and they don't care much about minorities' feelings.

        • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Zz9zZ on Saturday November 14 2015, @08:56AM

          by Zz9zZ (1348) on Saturday November 14 2015, @08:56AM (#263134)

          While there are some definite tensions, much of that has been the result of political interference. This is not JUST some religious disagreement, it is about repeated wrongs on both sides. Playing the "us vs. them" card is short sighted and will result in more death. It seems almost prophetical that one religion would have a "prophet" urging us to turn the other cheek, while the other has a "prophet" urging to war. It's like this collision has been fated to happen for 2000 years. You know what they say, learn history or be doomed to repeat it. I think the people back when weren't so dumb, and could see what was happening and where it would lead. We need to drop the vengeance and start working things out. There will be bumps, there will be bruises, but turn the other cheek and persevere. From a generational perspective eventually the children will recognize the bullshit and we can continue on as humanity, without the divisive need to fight over who breaks which end of the egg first.

          I've met many a muslim who was a fine example of human, and many a christian I'm proud to call friend. If you're stuck in the tribal mentality, then please don't venture beyond a few miles and stay off the internet where your small minded concerns can affect a disproportionate number of people.

          As for the tragedies of our age I have no answer, except it is the by-product of this divisive bullshit. Personally I sense a greater threat from the war mongers, trying to provoke the tribal mentality for their own gain.

          --
          ~Tilting at windmills~
          • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Saturday November 14 2015, @09:49AM

            by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @09:49AM (#263148) Journal

            Ahhhhh. So, you see Islam as just a religion. Some of us don't. Islam is a political system, as well as a theology, all wrapped up into one. Islam is what Catholicism was during the Holy Roman Empire. To Islam, Erdogan and Turkey are apostate, and must be destroyed. To Islam, Syria and Assad are apostate. Iraq and Saddam were apostate, and now Syria and it's present government are apostate.

            And, all western governments are apostate as well.

            You, and people who think like you, should study Islam to know it better.

            I, and people who think like me should also study Islam, so that we can better express those things we know.

            Islam does NOT WANT TO COEXIST WITH ANYONE OR ANYTHING except Islam. If you understand Islam, then you will also understand how foolish that view of coexistence is.

            I can't say that Islam is any better or any worse than any other political system, but I can definitely say that Islam is incompatible with any other political system.

            --
            On the plus side, I am completely immune to flash-bang grenades. - Helen Keller
            • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Zz9zZ on Saturday November 14 2015, @10:04AM

              by Zz9zZ (1348) on Saturday November 14 2015, @10:04AM (#263154)

              Sorry, but I'm not as clueless as you think I am. I fully understand that there are extremists on both sides. I have heard my fill of fear based speculation, and being a mostly rational person I have recognized that tourists around the world have not been systematically murdered upon entering a muslim dominated country. I have met quite a few co-existent muslims. The ones you refer to are EXTREMISTS, much like the christian extremists that want all gays, unmarried couples, and non-believers to BURN IN HELL. There are horrible quotes in every "sacred text", but by and large most people toss out the insanity and stick to the useful / helpful bits.

              Christianity is the same political system, being utilized in elections across the board. Truly, the only real difference between the two seems to be that Christianity clings to the "turn the other cheek" propaganda, while Islamists cling to the "kill the infidel" propaganda. Neither holds true. Many Christians advocate murder, as do Islamists. However, the majority of BOTH sides just want to get along and have no agenda for murder. Simple stats, easily corroborated by the LACK of daily news stories regarding religious murder across the world.

              I'm sure you will point out that more death has occurred in the name of Islam, but to counterpoint I will say that Western culture has simply hidden the religious fervor behind statehood and the same atrocities have been enacted with a mix of economic, political, and religious backing. In fact, Western culture has been responsible for MUCH more death. The "collateral" damage alone over the last decade is orders of magnitude greater than the tragedy unfolding in France, yet it gets swept away under the guise of "war" instead of "terrorism".

              --
              ~Tilting at windmills~
              • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Saturday November 14 2015, @10:14AM

                by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @10:14AM (#263159) Journal

                I didn't mean to imply that you are clueless - your posts have been intelligent. But, an intelligent person can be misguided, and even deluded. My suggestion that you and I BOTH try to understand Islam better wasn't the stab that you seem to take it for.

                --
                On the plus side, I am completely immune to flash-bang grenades. - Helen Keller
            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:25PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:25PM (#263301)

              > Islam does NOT WANT TO COEXIST WITH ANYONE OR ANYTHING except Islam.

              There is no compulsion in religion [wikipedia.org]
              -- Quran 2:256

              Say, "The truth is from your Lord": Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject it"
              -- Quran 18:29

              And if your Lord had pleased, surely all those who are in the earth would have believed, all of them; will you then force men till they become believers?
              -- Quran 10:99

              For you is your religion, and for me is my religion.
              -- Quran 109:6

              Therefore do remind, for you are only a reminder. You are not a watcher over them;
              -- Quran 88:21

              He said, "O my people have you considered: if I should be upon clear evidence from my Lord while He has given me mercy from Himself but it has been made unapparent to you, should we force it upon you while you are averse to it?
              -- Quran 11:28

              None of those quotes are cherry-picked to leave out contradicting context, it is a universal principle in the quran from all time periods in the book with many more examples beyond just those citations. That is unlike the quotes extremists like you typically use to justify your claims about islam being inherently incompatible with anybody else.

              • (Score: 4, Interesting) by Runaway1956 on Saturday November 14 2015, @05:08PM

                by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @05:08PM (#263321) Journal

                Uh-huh. And, Islam is the people, not the book. Just as Christianity is the people, not the book. It has been pointed out repeatedly in this discussion that people of all faiths can find something in their book to justify the hatred.

                Islam, today, is a virulent disease, spreading around the world, and destroying anything and everything that stands in it's way.

                Christianity seemed to be a very similar disease at one point in time. Today, it is far less virulent. Today, Islam is a danger to you, to me, to every man and woman in the world. That includes innocent young fools attending a concert.

                --
                On the plus side, I am completely immune to flash-bang grenades. - Helen Keller
                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @05:18PM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @05:18PM (#263337)

                  > Uh-huh. And, Islam is the people, not the book.

                  By that logic, islam is not a threat all. Since 99.999% have never hurt anyone.

                  Go ahead make up some new metric to justify your bullshit. It is any port in a storm with guys like you anyway.

                  • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday November 14 2015, @05:25PM

                    by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @05:25PM (#263341) Journal

                    No new metric needed. Watch, listen, and learn.

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ry3NzkAOo3s [youtube.com]

                    I'm not sure how "smart" Brigitte is, but she does have insight and wisdom going for her.

                    --
                    On the plus side, I am completely immune to flash-bang grenades. - Helen Keller
                    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @05:43PM

                      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @05:43PM (#263352)

                      Yay, yet another gamergater citing a random obscure youtube video of some bigot because they are incapable of articulating, or even having, their own beliefs.

                      So to summarize:

                      Islam is incompatible with everybody
                      o Except for what the Quran says
                      o Except for what 99.999% of muslims actually do

                      No, instead a religion of a billion people is defined by the handful of extremists. That makes you a neo-nazi white nationalist since however peaceful you are, those guys define you.

                      • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday November 14 2015, @06:09PM

                        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @06:09PM (#263364) Journal
                        --
                        On the plus side, I am completely immune to flash-bang grenades. - Helen Keller
                        • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @07:14PM

                          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @07:14PM (#263394)

                          > The facts won't be changed, of course, just because you refuse to believe them.

                          Ditto.

                          The facts remain that 99.999% of muslims haven't hurt anyone. Tthat you can find instances of some muslims hurting people doesn't change that fact. Just like I can find plenty of cases of white nationalists hurting people in the US that doesn't say anything meaningful about white americans.

                          > This last one makes no mention of Muslims or of Islam - but I suspect that Muslims are responsible.

                          Of course you suspect that. Do you even hear yourself?

                          • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday November 14 2015, @07:26PM

                            by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @07:26PM (#263406) Journal

                            And, where did you pull that 99.9% figure from? Your ass, of course. BTW - the "innocents" are not as innocent as you would like to believe. People are sending various kinds of support to the terrorists. Some of the terror organizations are awash in cash. Imams around the world are telling their followers that they should send donations to this or that terror group. That increases the number of terrorists by an order of magnitude, at leas.

                            And, when you get down to it, you still haven't explained how Islam and Sharia law are compatible with any other religion, government, or justice system in the world. Fact is, Islam is INCOMPATIBLE with any other civilization or culture in existence today.

                            --
                            On the plus side, I am completely immune to flash-bang grenades. - Helen Keller
                            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @07:49PM

                              by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @07:49PM (#263421)

                              > And, where did you pull that 99.9% figure from?

                              It is a figure of speech. You are welcome, encouraged, in fact demanded to prove otherwise. If that's not an accurate representation then lets see you come up with a number that does meet your high standard of accuracy. Otherwise quit running your mouth.

                              > you still haven't explained how Islam and Sharia law are compatible with any other religion,

                              Really? Those lines of scripture weren't enough for you?

                              Oh I get it, you are just running in circles. The religion is compatible, except what the scriptures says, oh the people are incompatible except what the people actually do, oh the minority is incompatible because the minority defines the majorty, oh the religion is incompatible execpt what the scriptures say....

                              • (Score: 3, Informative) by Runaway1956 on Saturday November 14 2015, @08:16PM

                                by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @08:16PM (#263432) Journal

                                Circles? Yeah, maybe. Once again, the religion and political structure are composed of PEOPLE. We have our own documents, which include the constitution of the United States. Our elected officials claim to support and/or represent that document, but so many of those officials desecrate that document with every breath they take. Bush and Cheney for example.

                                You want a quote on the number of incompatible Muslims? Take your pick -

                                http://www.jihadwatch.org/2004/08/muslim-american-activist-fifty-percent-of-muslims-worldwide-support-extremists [jihadwatch.org]

                                http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/opinion-polls.htm [thereligionofpeace.com]

                                The site most agreeable to your claim says that 7 percent of Muslims support extremists:
                                https://encounteringislam.org/misconceptions [encounteringislam.org]

                                Then again, maybe the results vary with how the question is posed:
                                http://www.westernjournalism.com/shocking-new-study-reveals-just-how-many-muslims-support-isis-and-its-frightening/ [westernjournalism.com]

                                And, at the end of the day, logic and rationalism plays little if any role in the debate. Islam plays on poeple's fears, superstitions, and lack of education. Much of Islam denies education to women, and restricts the education of men, for a reason. The uneducated and ignorant are much more malleable than educated and sophisticated people. The Catholic church knew that, and capitalized on it for hundreds of years.

                                Islam is incompatible with English Common Law, Napoleonic Law, the Code of Hammurabi, Roman or Greek law - every legal system known to the western world. Islam is incompatible with every form of government that the western world has ever experimented with. Incompatible. One has to choose to be blind to fail to understand that.

                                --
                                On the plus side, I am completely immune to flash-bang grenades. - Helen Keller
                                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @09:33PM

                                  by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @09:33PM (#263459)

                                  > Circles? Yeah, maybe.

                                  No, definitely. I can't believe you wrote that and still went on to do it.

                                  > You want a quote on the number of incompatible Muslims?

                                  Nice pivot from harming someone to "support for extremism"

                                  First off, numbers for actually harming someone - murder rate in the US 5 per 100,000, in Indonesia the largest muslim country 1 per 100,000. Turks, Egyptans, Malayasians 2-4 per 100,000. Catholic Brazil 15+ per 100,000, Catholic Venezuela 50+ per 100,000.

                                  1 per 100,000 that works out to 99.998%
                                  http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/02/15/no-islam-isn-t-inherently-violent-and-the-math-proves-it.html [thedailybeast.com]

                                  Now to address your pivot, what you left out are comparisons.

                                  Bombing and other attacks intentionally aimed at civilians:
                                  Americans: 46% never justified
                                  5 largest muslim countries: 74-86% never justified
                                  http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0223/p09s01-coop.html [csmonitor.com]

                                  When is it justified for individuals or small groups to target and kill civilans
                                  Israel: 73% never justified
                                  Palestine: 84% never justified
                                  http://media.gallup.com/poll/graphs/MideastViolence010808Graph4.gif [gallup.com]

                                  When is it justified for the military to target and kill civilians:
                                  American Muslims: 78% never, 21% sometimes
                                  American Protestants: 38% never, 58% sometimes

                                  When is it justified for small groups to target and kill civlians?
                                  American Muslims: 89% never, 11% sometimes
                                  American Protestants: 71% never, 26% sometimes
                                  http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2011/08/a-fascinating-look-at-the-political-views-of-muslim-americans/242975/ [theatlantic.com]

                                  So even by your very own criteria, islam is more compatible than you are. Time for you to save the world and convert.

                                  > And, at the end of the day, logic and rationalism plays little if any role in the debate.

                                  you know yourself so well.

                                  > Islam is incompatible...

                                  blah blah blah more proof by assertion. All that is you wishing as hard as you can for something that isn't true. Because if you are wrong you'd have to face some harsh realities about yourself.

                                  • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday November 14 2015, @09:43PM

                                    by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @09:43PM (#263465) Journal

                                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deera_Square [wikipedia.org]

                                    The worst excesses of the Christian religion, from all of history, distilled, and carried out on a weekly basis. All the worst crimes of Judaism, ditto. Plus, perhaps, all of the worst of Hinduism. Sanctimonious and fearful superstitious fools, murdering people by the scores and the hundreds, to protect their false beliefs in some crazy moon god. And, they will kill every man, woman, and child on earth to protect their belief.

                                    It is incompatible with any other way of life.

                                    --
                                    On the plus side, I am completely immune to flash-bang grenades. - Helen Keller
                                    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @10:23PM

                                      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @10:23PM (#263480)

                                      Lol. You are such a cliche. "Moon god" lololol.

                                      Yeah public executions. What other country executes people? Oh yeah.

                                      You could not have made a stronger capitulation as to the emptiness of your arguments if you had just stood up like a man said you were wrong.

                            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @10:26PM

                              by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @10:26PM (#263482)

                              Well, 99.999, if you have 1 billion people who are muslim, that would mean 999,990,000 are non-violent normal people going about their lives, like you do. 10,000 are violent extremists.
                              I doubt there are that many violent [muslim] extremists actually. Like all those ISIS/ISIL people, they don't really seem to have any interest in islam, and more seem like those warlords or child soldier armies that run around in africa.

                              • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Sunday November 15 2015, @05:03AM

                                by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Sunday November 15 2015, @05:03AM (#263562) Journal

                                If that be true - then why has Islam not crushed those war lords for defaming the real Islam? And, where do those dirt poor war lords get the weapons used to torture, rape and kill their fellow Africans? I suggest that the rest of Islam is quite happy to see those apostates punishing the infidels. That whole "enemy of mine enemy" thing, with Chrisians, Hindus, animists, and the worshippers of other gods being the greater enemy.

                                --
                                On the plus side, I am completely immune to flash-bang grenades. - Helen Keller
                    • (Score: 2) by Reziac on Sunday November 15 2015, @03:34AM

                      by Reziac (2489) on Sunday November 15 2015, @03:34AM (#263551) Homepage

                      And why are the ~80% who are peaceful people not doing something to restrain the ~20% who are not?

                • (Score: 2) by Reziac on Sunday November 15 2015, @03:26AM

                  by Reziac (2489) on Sunday November 15 2015, @03:26AM (#263547) Homepage

                  All religions go through an early stage where they coerce membership and kill off the competition. All other major religions have outgrown this and learned to get along in a world where they're not the sole option. But Islam never outgrew its coercive stage, and seems to be built to ensure that it never will.

                  • (Score: 2) by Zz9zZ on Sunday November 15 2015, @08:07PM

                    by Zz9zZ (1348) on Sunday November 15 2015, @08:07PM (#263743)

                    It is going through this right now. Muslims are being murdered by other Muslims MUCH more than any other group.

                    Also, I would like to point out that no religion has fully outgrown this. There are radical members in every group. Christianity, Judaism, hell even Buddhism!! Muslims have the stage right now for at least a few reasons: their countries have been messed with by almost all foreign powers so they have a lot of animosity especially towards the "West", and they are the largest religious group in the world so by default they have more of an impact.

                    --
                    ~Tilting at windmills~
                    • (Score: 2) by Reziac on Sunday November 15 2015, @08:31PM

                      by Reziac (2489) on Sunday November 15 2015, @08:31PM (#263751) Homepage

                      Being messed with in the present doesn't explain over a thousand years of Muslims behaving in more or less the same way.

                      • (Score: 2) by Zz9zZ on Monday November 16 2015, @09:42PM

                        by Zz9zZ (1348) on Monday November 16 2015, @09:42PM (#264115)

                        The Roman Empire, the Crusades, etc.

                        Long running feud that has mostly occurred in the Middle East. For a while they were able to take over some of Europe. "Repeat after me, stereotypes are bad!" While they are sometimes statistically valid over a population, applying them in every situation with a group of people is 100% going to result in problems.

                        You claim they all want to kill us, so the solution is something something all Muslims something something. Doesn't much matter what you choose, its not the right course. Welcoming arms for all? Silly idea, some will be extremists and use that chance to hurt you. Violence and segregation for all? Silly idea, some are great people who will become bitter at being treated unfairly.

                        ENDGAME: The world isn't black and white, and it takes courage to try and approach each and every situation with an open mind. That doesn't mean acceptance, that means being open to the idea that each person could be good or bad and to try and act accordingly.

                        --
                        ~Tilting at windmills~
      • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Runaway1956 on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:13PM

        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:13PM (#263191) Journal
        --
        On the plus side, I am completely immune to flash-bang grenades. - Helen Keller
    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by vux984 on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:06AM

      by vux984 (5045) on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:06AM (#262888)

      The fault isn't that France is multi-cultural; the problem is that the people doing this are not.
      And monoculturalism isn't the solution... its what creates the people causing these problems.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:10AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:10AM (#262889)

        Yes, because other monocultures are just as violent. I remember just recently that terrorist attack in über-monocultural Japan... Oh wait, no I don't. Because monoculturalism is the solution.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:15AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:15AM (#262891)

          dude, I just started a new job and am really busy. get that monoculture the hell away from me.

        • (Score: 2, Disagree) by pe1rxq on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:17AM

          by pe1rxq (844) on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:17AM (#262893) Homepage

          Nothing bad ever happens in monocultures..... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokyo_subway_sarin_attack [wikipedia.org]

          • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:25AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:25AM (#262900)

            Nothing bad ever happens in monocultures

            "Things I never claimed for $100, Alex."

            Also,

            >1995
            This was TWENTY YEARS AGO and nothing of note has happened since.

            Whoops! [wikipedia.org]
            Whoops! [wikipedia.org]
            Whoops! [wikipedia.org]

            That's just a few of the attacks this year.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @11:54PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @11:54PM (#263503)

              OK, so are you saying that having pluralistic society foments violence? Your examples are from France and the United States. What ought those countries to do to make themselves more like Japan or China? If there's to be a single culture, whose culture shall that be which prevails? What shall be done about those people who weren't raised in the dominant culture? Shall laws be enacted to encourage them to at least appear to subscribe to the winning culture? Shall they be segregated from the rest of society, whether in specially reserved lands or in prisons? Perhaps they could be sent back to Africa (assuming the African culture isn't the one chosen for the USA or France). Obviously the surest solution is to kill them, but that is somewhat at odds with the goal of diminishing violence. Even the non-lethal measures might be resisted—violently, even—by some as too harsh. I have the impression that conformity is highly valued in Japan and China, but less valued in France and the United States. The homogenization effort might be opposed even by those who won't themselves need re-education or expulsion.

              When I think of efforts to establish a homogeneous culture or populace, the USSR, South Africa during apartheid [wikipedia.org], Germany under the Nazis, and present-day Israel come to mind.

              In the USSR, members of the most popular religion, the Russian Orthodox church, were killed or imprisoned for their beliefs, and many Orthodox churches were closed and looted.[1]

              In South Africa, a minority of the population took away the citizenship and voting rights of the majority, and were banished to designated territories, the bantustans (one thing the bantustans had going for them was that they could have casinos—this reminds me of America).

              In Israel a similar thing has been done: the majority of the people have been stripped of their political rights and forced off their lands into designated territories, so as to create a state where a religious minority is in control.

              In all of those societies, there was tremendous violence as part of the homogenization efforts, and in the latter two, violence in opposition to homogenization.

              [1] http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/archives/anti.html [loc.gov]

        • (Score: 5, Insightful) by linuxrocks123 on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:46AM

          by linuxrocks123 (2557) on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:46AM (#262921) Journal

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes [wikipedia.org]

          If we could segregate all people of different cultures, send them to different planets through wormholes, and then permanently close the wormholes so that interaction was no longer possible, maybe "everyone thinks exactly the same as everyone else, and considers everyone to be of the same tribe" would work okay ... in the short term.

          In the medium-to-long-term, it's still a shitty plan, because people naturally break themselves up into different tribes, and those tribes will go to war if the people making the decisions are mental midgets. The famous "chimp war" Jane Goodall observed was the result of a community breaking in two and the larger splinter group completely exterminating the smaller splinter group. This type of self-inflicted misery befalls humans as well when our leaders are as dumb as chimps. The only real solution is "make sure as few people as possible are mental midgets, especially those in leadership roles", where "not a mental midget" includes respecting all other people as full humans with the full complement of human rights. I guess you can call that philosophy multiculturalism if you want to.

          • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Grishnakh on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:36AM

            by Grishnakh (2831) on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:36AM (#263024)

            includes respecting all other people as full humans with the full complement of human rights. I guess you can call that philosophy multiculturalism if you want to.

            That's not multiculturalism at all, it's entirely orthogonal. Human rights means treating people equally under the law and recognizing they have certain inalienable rights. This doesn't mean you have to cater to their cultural sensitivities or desires. It's entirely possible to respect human rights while having a system of government and laws which makes life unhappy for minorities, such as by mandating a particular language for official use, by mandating holidays the majority likes and ignoring the minority's wishes, etc. As long as the minorities have the same rights and there isn't some kind of segregationist system (separate restrooms, blatant discrimination, etc.) going on, then their human rights are being respected while multiculturalism is not.

            The problem with multiculturalism is that some cultures simply are incompatible with other cultures. A culture which demands its religion be forefront and in charge of the government is never going to get along with a culture which values secularism, for instance (nor will it ever get along with a culture where religion is officially suppressed, as in China).

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @08:21AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @08:21AM (#263129)

              If culture X demands that religeon be forefront,
              and culture Y (with different religeon) does as
              well, then they too can't get along. Such cultures
              simply can't get along with **anybody** else.

              Permanant containment is not a viable long-term
              solution to the problem. Attempting to do that
              will only prolong the extermination of the more
              wimpy culture. Only non-wimpy cultures survive.
              Hint: your's is wimpy if it prohibits genocide.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @06:50PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @06:50PM (#263383)

                In today's news: conflicting cultures conflict when inhabiting the same space, unless they're willing to resolve their conflicts, such as by sharing that space without imposing on each other; who'd have thunk it?

                Metaculture should be obvious, but we're quickly discarding everything we learned during the Enlightenment, and many other cultures never had those ideas in the first place (though one assumes they will arise at some point in more or less any culture that permits it).

              • (Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Monday November 16 2015, @01:22AM

                by Grishnakh (2831) on Monday November 16 2015, @01:22AM (#263811)

                Permanant containment is not a viable long-term solution to the problem. Attempting to do that will only prolong the extermination of the more wimpy culture.

                First off, why the hell are you writing in 80-character-wide lines? You look stupid doing so.

                Secondly, how the hell is permanent containment *not* a viable long-term solution? As long as everyone stays on their side of the border, there's not a problem if the cultures conflict. As long as the "wimpy" (i.e. refuses to commit genocide according to you) culture maintains a strong border and refuses to allow immigration from the place with an incompatible culture, there's no problem.

        • (Score: 0, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:12AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:12AM (#262951)

          > I remember just recently that terrorist attack in über-monocultural Japan... Oh wait, no I don't.

          Is terrorism your only barometer? Of all the violence in 1st world countries terrorist attacks are a minuscule component. To base your conclusions on such reductivist analysis is simple-minded. Just because no one is blowing up the Ainu in japan doesn't mean they aren't subject to enormous amounts of suffering and oppression.

          Meanwhile look at Iraq and Syria - monocultures with hundreds of thousands of causalities from terrorist and other forms of violence.

          • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:40AM

            by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:40AM (#262992) Journal

            You've been modded "insightful" - but I would say that your insight is somewhat limited. Neither Syria nor Iraq is a monoculture. Both countries have been subject to outside influences for millenia. Both countries are home to multiple cultures, including Yazidi, Kurd, Orthodox Christian, Shia, Baathists, Bedouin, and more. Things have been complicated in recent centuries by the invasion of European powers, and the discovery of oil.

            It would be more accurate to say that Syria and Iraq are the natural results of multiculturalism.

            --
            On the plus side, I am completely immune to flash-bang grenades. - Helen Keller
            • (Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:10AM

              by Phoenix666 (552) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:10AM (#263009) Journal

              Shh, Runaway, all Ay-rabs look the same and are the same, dontcha know

              --
              Washington DC delenda est.
            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:21AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:21AM (#263042)

              > Neither Syria nor Iraq is a monoculture.

              Thanks for taking my bait. You are of course correct. Similarly no country on the earth is a monoculture. Not even the cited case of the Japan is such with the native Ainu and the Zainichi for example.

              Therefore drawing the conclusions about the benefits of monoculture is typical racist thinking - conclusions based on a superficial reductivist understanding and barely a passing familiarity with the complex details of the situation.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:33AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:33AM (#263053)

              Its kinda funny you consider baathists [wikipedia.org] to be a cultural group. I guess to a wing-nut conservative like you democrats are a cultural group too.

              Just goes to prove my point about you only having a superficial knowledge of what the fuck you are talking about. As is always the case with racists.

              • (Score: 3, Touché) by Runaway1956 on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:48AM

                by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:48AM (#263062) Journal

                Dopeheads are a subculture - socialists are a subculture - neonazis are a subculture - even feminism has become a subculture here in the US. And, yes, Baathists are every bit as much a subculture in the mideast as the Yazidi are. Iraq was ruled by a Baathist for several decades, after all.

                Or, did you think that only a religion can define a culture or subculture? The diet? A style of clothing? By what standards do you define culture? Are guns and other weapons required to defing a culture?

                I suppose that you would claim that the USSR had no culture.

                --
                On the plus side, I am completely immune to flash-bang grenades. - Helen Keller
                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @05:17AM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @05:17AM (#263074)

                  It's revealing how you've turned the word "culture" into something so all encompassing that it has no meaning at all. You've completely contradicted your position about monocultures by making up a definition for the word "culture" that is so generic that it is impossible to have a monoculture because any group of people can be divided up by your arbitrary lines.

                  • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday November 14 2015, @09:57AM

                    by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @09:57AM (#263151) Journal

                    That's life, Sweety Pie. New York city culture is distinct from Los Angeles culture, which is quite distinct from the culture of Chicago. And, the country side of the United States hosts a thousand little pockets of other distinctive cultures. Ever been to south Texas? Would you confuse the poeple there with New Yorkers, or even Houstonians?

                    People don't all fit into your concept of what life is like. In fact, I suspect that no people fit into your world view.

                    --
                    On the plus side, I am completely immune to flash-bang grenades. - Helen Keller
                    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:26PM

                      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:26PM (#263278)

                      > That's life, Sweety Pie.

                      Lol. You think you are such a wise scholar of the human condition but you can't recognize your own "culture" - old ignorant white bigot.

                      For you "multiculturalism" is just another thing for you to rant about - feminists, socialists, dopeheads - those are cultures to you. What a fucking joke you are. That is indeed life -- bigots gonna bigot.

                      • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:46PM

                        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:46PM (#263285) Journal

                        You do realize that some of the other contributing members of this board are envious of my fan club. Please, spread the love a little. Others deserve the recognition. I do love having my own fan club, but there are others just as deserving.

                        --
                        On the plus side, I am completely immune to flash-bang grenades. - Helen Keller
                        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:55PM

                          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:55PM (#263291)

                          Oh, poor little runaway is feeling persecuted. How terrible for you. Like all bigots, at heart you are just a whiner who thinks he's been singled out.

        • (Score: 5, Informative) by Phoenix666 on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:07AM

          by Phoenix666 (552) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:07AM (#263007) Journal

          It's generally advisable to google first before asserting something like this. Aum Shinrikyo [wikipedia.org], native Japanese apocalyptic cult that had recruited chemical engineers and others and amassed hordes of weapons and developed chemical weapons. They aimed big, releasing sarin in the Tokyo subway, hoping to kill tens of thousands. They only managed to kill two because there's more to dispersing chemical agents than meets the eye. I was living in Japan at the time, and it was incredibly shocking to Japanese because those chemical engineers and scientists had graduated from Kyodai (Kyoto Daigaku--Kyoto University) and Todai (Tokyo Daigaku--Tokyo University), which are the Princeton and Harvard of Japan, where the elite of the elite are educated there.

          But there you go, a very monocultural society, for many the definition of a monoculture, giving birth to a very nasty, highly motivated terrorist group.

          Or, you could pivot to Europe if you don't find East Asia particularly compelling and talk about Germany, another extreme monoculture (at least at the time), that gave birth to die Rote Armee Faktion, which was a terrorist group that was still active when I studied in Koln in high school in 1989. All German terrorists, targeting Germans. Or take the Italians, if you don't accept Germans as a good example; the Italians had Brigate Rosse, all Italians, targeting Italians. Or you could take FARC in Columbia, or the Shining Path in Peru. There are many other examples of lesser or greater "purity" according to the monocultural filter.

          Still think monoculturalism is the answer to terrorism?

          --
          Washington DC delenda est.
        • (Score: 2) by gnuman on Saturday November 14 2015, @05:08AM

          by gnuman (5013) on Saturday November 14 2015, @05:08AM (#263069)

          Oh wait, no I don't. Because monoculturalism is the solution.

          This is a very stupid comment for one very good reason - the world is multicultural. Unless you want the human race to go out in a blaze of glory, of course.

          People do bad things because they are indoctrinated to be bad people, not because of their "culture". Germans are not "bad people", but look what happened under Hitler. Myanmar Buddhists are not bad people either, but there is strong evidence of ethnic cleansing of local Muslim populations. Almost every nation and culture has plenty of examples - we are all equal in how bad we can be. So we all either stop behaving like assholes and stop doing bad things and start tolerating each other, OR, might as well set off WWIII now and have most of the world be inhabitable for anyway. Monoculturalism of nil is certainly most peaceful.

          And there is always going to be idiots with weapons bent on going out in a blaze of glory. It will never be possible to stop them 100% of the time, even if we live in a literal jail. The best way to fight extremists is to unite everyone against them. But if you allow the extremists to divide you instead, like your opinion seem to indicate, then the struggle is lost already and the extremists won. The more polarized a city/nation/region/world/whatever becomes, the more extremists are created - don't be one of those.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:27PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:27PM (#263279)

            the world is multicultural

            If only we could keep the individual cultures contained in geographically defined areas of some kind. Wouldn't that be great? Maybe even build a nice wall to keep others out.

            • (Score: 2) by gnuman on Saturday November 14 2015, @05:15PM

              by gnuman (5013) on Saturday November 14 2015, @05:15PM (#263332)

              If only we could keep the individual cultures contained in geographically defined areas of some kind.

              And how do you think that would work? One person cannot marry another because they are in different "culture"? One person cannot live as they want, because that would be different from "their" culture?

              Your "culture" doesn't define who you are - you define who you are. Your life is your own, not your "culture's".

              • (Score: 0, Disagree) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @10:00PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @10:00PM (#263471)

                Newsflash: I was making a joke, dum-dum. That comment was referring to a thing called 'borders', which are the confinement of what is commonly called a 'country'.

                A 'country' is a place of people with a shared heritage and culture. Of course, that's only if you don't open your 'borders' to anyone who wants to poz your neg hole. A country with open borders cannot exist, at least not for long. A country with open borders will be conquered by whoever wants to.

      • (Score: 5, Insightful) by GungnirSniper on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:18AM

        by GungnirSniper (1671) on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:18AM (#262895) Journal

        Mohammedism is the cause of this attack. It is a vile philosophy that justifies war against non-followers, as a sort of Arab Naziism. To blame generic 'monoculturalism' is to deflect blame on the root cause: massive ethnocidal immigration of the adherents of this 'faith'.

        • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:28AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:28AM (#262906)

          Don't single out Islam, they're just 600 years behind Christianity, give them time to catch up.

          • (Score: 5, Insightful) by BK on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:56AM

            by BK (4868) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:56AM (#262936)

            Bear in mind that the most famous Christian atrocities, occurred while resisting or combating the religion of child rape. Of course it's never that simple, but sometimes it really is just_that_simple.

            --
            4 out of 5 dentists choose Brand X. The other is just a denier.
            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @10:46PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @10:46PM (#263486)

              So if they commit evil while combating something they believe is evil, then it's okay.

              Why child rape? Why not murder, which is far worse? Is the "child rape" thing intended to stir emotions? If so, it doesn't work on me, but it does set off my bullshit alarm due to how often the government has used it. And if you look at the bible (even including the new testament), it's not all that much better unless you 'creatively' interpret it (i.e. lie), but anyone can play that game.

          • (Score: 4, Informative) by q.kontinuum on Saturday November 14 2015, @08:14AM

            by q.kontinuum (532) on Saturday November 14 2015, @08:14AM (#263127) Journal

            Don't single out Islam, they're just 600 years behind Christianity, give them time to catch up

            That depends [theguardian.com]. You could argue they are only ~10-15 years behind. Of course you could argue that Bush is just using god as an excuse for violence, but I'd then argue the same for the terrorists.

            All Christian religions known to me are based on the bible, and none of them is ready to officially exclude the old testament, which has some pretty nasty parts [evilbible.com]. Even the new testament, which tells us to go to church to confess and kill all sinners (defined in previous parts) afterwards (""Whoever is without sin among you, let him be the first to cast a stone at her.", John 8:7) doesn't seem like a big improvement under this context.

            They usually have their own interpretation, which is diametrically opposed opposed to these part of the bible, but so do most moslims.

            --
            Registered IRC nick on chat.soylentnews.org: qkontinuum
            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:09PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:09PM (#263270)

              Wow,
              Is there an award for taking something so far out of context as to make something mean the complete opposite to what is actually meant?

        • (Score: 4, Touché) by Ethanol-fueled on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:31AM

          by Ethanol-fueled (2792) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:31AM (#262908) Homepage

          Islam is a religion of peace.

          Now convert or be beheaded! Allahu Akhbar! Ali-li-li-li-li-li-li-li!

          • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Tork on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:04AM

            by Tork (3914) on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:04AM (#262944)
            The scariest thing about terrorism is the way it can turn masses of ignorant dipshits like you into weapons of perpetuatuon.
            --
            Slashdolt Logic: "19 year old jokes about sharks and lasers are +5, Funny." 💩
            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:31AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:31AM (#262961)

              It didn't turn him into anything. He always was that, and just had it corked up inside. Now he gets to pop the cork and spray it over everyone, and claim he's better than you as he predicted this would happen all along.

              I may believe that muslims have a mental disease (for believing that fairy-stories are real), but EF and his ilk are just as sociopathic. And now they get to troll us. Let them have their day, let them wallow in the filth and blood. That doesn't make them winners.

            • (Score: 1, Troll) by kurenai.tsubasa on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:15AM

              by kurenai.tsubasa (5227) on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:15AM (#262981) Journal

              I'd mod you up, but I keep getting this error:

              Re::^)(10598-262944, Already moderated)

              -.-;;

              I truly live in interesting times. While replying to the resident troll (ah but we love him, because he's our troll!), somebody keeping a level head gets -1, troll.

              Good grief, people! This is a tragedy, but remember, this was all put into place by the Illuminati when they ousted the democratically elected and progressive government of Iran way back when.

              The final pieces of their script are coming together.

              • (Score: 3, Informative) by NCommander on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:53AM

                by NCommander (2) Subscriber Badge <mcasadevall@soylentnews.org> on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:53AM (#263032) Homepage Journal

                I just looked at that's posts mod log, and it looks like a freaking yoyo.

                Ethanol-fueled is one of those people that could start a riot with one carefully aimed sentence. I'm both impressed and frightened at that power.

                --
                Still always moving
                • (Score: 2) by kurenai.tsubasa on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:18AM

                  by kurenai.tsubasa (5227) on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:18AM (#263040) Journal

                  I was being facetious, but I hope you gathered that. I can imagine it's a yoyo. I'll bet this entire discussion is a mod-bombing yoyo. I've blown 4 of my mod points for the day here. I'll probably spend that last one here, too.

                  • (Score: 2) by kurenai.tsubasa on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:23AM

                    by kurenai.tsubasa (5227) on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:23AM (#263045) Journal

                    And lo and behold, there it goes! My apologies if you thought I was reporting an actual error, NCommander.

                    • (Score: 2) by NCommander on Saturday November 14 2015, @06:46AM

                      by NCommander (2) Subscriber Badge <mcasadevall@soylentnews.org> on Saturday November 14 2015, @06:46AM (#263103) Homepage Journal

                      Of all the stuff we've touched in rehash (the codebase that powers SN), the mod testing code is basically a full rewrite from Slashdot, so I won't be hugely surprised if we made a mistake somewhere and people mass-modding someone caused a race condition and a post to go -2, or +6 even!

                      --
                      Still always moving
                    • (Score: 2) by fritsd on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:02PM

                      by fritsd (4586) on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:02PM (#263216) Journal

                      I'm angry and just posted a tin-foil-hat conspiracy theory (one of my better ones, actually).

                      It affects all of us in different ways.

                      Somehow I'm still glad this oasis of crazy people, soylentnews, exists.

                      Soon enough all the news will be how president Marine le Pen led the world away from climate mitigation and into war with Syria.

              • (Score: 2) by Tork on Sunday November 15 2015, @02:54AM

                by Tork (3914) on Sunday November 15 2015, @02:54AM (#263540)
                Thank you.
                --
                Slashdolt Logic: "19 year old jokes about sharks and lasers are +5, Funny." 💩
          • (Score: 5, Insightful) by vux984 on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:22AM

            by vux984 (5045) on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:22AM (#262957)

            Islam is a religion of peace.
            Now convert or be beheaded! Allahu Akhbar! Ali-li-li-li-li-li-li-li!

            Christianity is the religion of turning the other cheek, of forgiveness.
            Now stop abortions or we'll blow you up. (USA 20th-21st century)

            Buddhism is the religion of live and let live.
            Now convert to Buddhism or we'll execute you. (Myanmar 20th-21st century)

            The United States is the country of the rule of law. (20th-21st century...)
            Now we'll just put this bag on your head, and torture you in a secret prison; and if we can't catch you we'll send a drone to execute you extra-judicially of course.

            Islam isn't the problem. Its just the excuse used here. Born of a lot of misery and despair in a place that just happened to be predominantly Muslim.
            Religion isn't the problem. Its just a convenient excuse; but not the only one available.

            Base motivations like greed, intolerance, poverty are the problem. All universal to the human experience.

            • (Score: 1) by tftp on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:32AM

              by tftp (806) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:32AM (#262988) Homepage

              One important difference among your examples is that all systems except Muslim are rejecting the aberrations. They detect them, they talk about them, they make it known that "this won't stand" and, in the end, the abuses stop. Not so with Islam. As Islam has no central authority, every Mullah is free to interpret Quran however he likes, and there is not much to promptly and decisively stop his herecy. It does not help that Quran itself contains some permission for violence - or at least has words to that effect. As result, violence runs free in too many Muslim groups, and it is a positive feedback loop.

              • (Score: 3, Informative) by Phoenix666 on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:25AM

                by Phoenix666 (552) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:25AM (#263018) Journal

                As Islam has no central authority, every Mullah is free to interpret Quran however he likes, and there is not much to promptly and decisively stop his herecy. It does not help that Quran itself contains some permission for violence - or at least has words to that effect. As result, violence runs free in too many Muslim groups, and it is a positive feedback loop.

                Yeah, well, the muslims have no monopoly on that either. The Bible contains plenty of violent language and imagery. The Old Testament talks about how the Jews established themselves in Canaan after Abraham by basically committing genocide against the people who were already there. Those people weren't even given the option to convert that the Muslim Jihadis gave others, they were only given the option of dying. There is also plenty of latitude within Christianity for its "mullahs" to interpret the Bible however they want (case in point: Westboro Baptist Church).

                I'm not excusing today's attacks, but the othering going on vis-a-vis Islam isn't supported by facts.

                --
                Washington DC delenda est.
            • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:48AM

              by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:48AM (#262997) Journal

              You're pretty much on target. Religion is the excuse, not the reason.

              And, meanwhile, many wiser heads have indeed been waring about this kind of thing. They understand that religion is the excuse. Take multiple cultures, and mix them together, and you are guilty of "stirring the pot". Europe is a witch's cauldron today, with multiple sects of a volatile religion being stirred into a somewhat rational world.

              Few if any Muslims want to integrate into European society. All Muslims are taught to wage Jihad - the lessons are ingested with mother's milk. All good Muslims must struggle to advance Islam, and to improve themselves spiritually. Not all Muslims choose to become soldiers or terrorists, but all good Muslims must wage some form of jihad.

              And, Europe will remain incapable of countering jihad, unless and until Europe understands that fact.

              --
              On the plus side, I am completely immune to flash-bang grenades. - Helen Keller
              • (Score: 2) by tynin on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:17AM

                by tynin (2013) on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:17AM (#263015) Journal

                And when Europe understands this fact, what then? I've been asking myself similar questions this night. To me, this appears to be a cultural war. If a group of like-minded assholes came into my town, and killed my friends and family, in the near term I would lust for the death of their friends and family, and any and all that stood with them at any point in their life. I start to realize that this is a rather Machiavellian stance. I'm divided tonight, I do not wish to lump people together in groups and judge them all, but if I were France, tomorrow Raka would be nothing more than broken stone and burn blood on the sand.

                "For it must be noted, that men must either be caressed or else annihilated; they will revenge themselves for small injuries, but cannot do so for great ones; the injury therefore that we do to a man must be such that we need not fear his revenge."

                • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:55AM

                  by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:55AM (#263034) Journal

                  "I do not wish to lump people together"

                  It matters little what you or I might wish. In a culture war, there will be two (or more) sides, and the side that you choose NOT to stand with will regard you as the enemy. Those who don't take any side will stand alone, with all factions targeting them.

                  I am somewhat partial to western ways. If there is to be a culture war, then I will stand with the west - despite the fact that I know the west is terribly wrong in many cases.

                  We can probably expect the modern day equivalent of a Crusade in the near future. And, the armies will be motivated by religious zealotry and hatred, just as the invaders of Europe are motivated by zealotry and hatred.

                  I find it interesting that the media generally shows old men, old women, mothers, and children when when the cover the "refugees". Yet, the overwhelming percentage of "refugees" are military age males. Interview after interview, military age males tell a tale of woe, about how they came to Europe to make a home for the families they've left behind. Reporters eat that shit up because it makes for all kinds of feel-good reading. But the real story is "military aged male". The "refugee camps" are housing the vanguard of an invading army, it's really that simple.

                  --
                  On the plus side, I am completely immune to flash-bang grenades. - Helen Keller
              • (Score: 5, Informative) by Phoenix666 on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:29AM

                by Phoenix666 (552) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:29AM (#263019) Journal

                After 9/11 I attended a regular meeting of my Masonic lodge. A Lebanese brother, a close friend, and a Muslim, got up and delicately said that "jihad" is the struggle to rid yourself of spiritual impurities, not a license to kill others. I am no expert on the Quran or an Islamic studies expert, but it was a perspective I had not heard before that was very meaningful to the rest of us in that lodge meeting, so I put it out here now in light of the events.

                --
                Washington DC delenda est.
                • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Grishnakh on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:44AM

                  by Grishnakh (2831) on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:44AM (#263028)

                  Unfortunately, there's very different strains of the Islamic religion, just as there's very different strains of Christianity.

                  Your Lebanese friend is obviously from one of the more moderate strains. Probably something like the Lutherans in Christianity.

                  But there's some really wacko strains of Christianity out there: the snake-handlers, the Seventh-Day Adventists, the Pentecostals, etc. In Christianity, these groups aren't really very big, but over on the Islamic side, the "extremists" seem to be a pretty large fraction of the whole, and they're far, far more violent than even the nuttiest Christians. They're like the Christians were before the Enlightenment: burning people at the stake for "heresy" etc. Well, it took half a millenium for the Christians to shed most of that nonsense and become somewhat civilized. The Muslims aren't going to do it in a decade.

                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @05:24AM

                    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @05:24AM (#263081)

                    > the Seventh-Day Adventists,

                    They aren't particularly wacko, more on the amish side of things - they brought us breakfast cereal after all. Yes Kellog was a 7th day adventist.

                    • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @10:12AM

                      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @10:12AM (#263158)

                      It was also invented to make you stop masturbating.

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corn_flakes [wikipedia.org]

                      Dr. Kellogg introduced Kellogg Corn Flakes in hopes that it would reduce masturbation.[5] In fact, Kellogg devoted much of his energy to discouraging sexual activity of any kind, and was an especially ardent critic of masturbation, which he believed could cause "cancer of the womb, urinary diseases, nocturnal emissions, impotence, epilepsy, insanity, and mental and physical debility" as well as "dimness of vision" and moral corruption.[6]

                      • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:22PM

                        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:22PM (#263225)

                        Was it common for men to masturbate in their breakfast, in dr. Kellogg's time??

                  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Phoenix666 on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:47PM

                    by Phoenix666 (552) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:47PM (#263208) Journal

                    the "extremists" seem to be a pretty large fraction of the whole

                    No, they're not. They're not even a blip. There are 1.57 billion, with a "b," muslims in the world. ISIS are a rounding error. That's like saying my crazy Christian cousin Greg is a "pretty large fraction of the whole" of Christians. He's not.

                    I really wish this religious bigotry, because that's what this is, would cease because it is not only hateful, but also tedious, and worst of all, incorrect. It's flat wrong from any perspective.

                    --
                    Washington DC delenda est.
                    • (Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Monday November 16 2015, @01:18AM

                      by Grishnakh (2831) on Monday November 16 2015, @01:18AM (#263809)

                      No, they're not. They're not even a blip.

                      Bullshit. If they're "not even a blip", then please explain how it is they control many nations. Saudi Arabia and Iran for starters, Egypt (where they elected the Muslim Brotherhood in a *popular election* but the military overthrew this democratically-elected government), Afghanistan which used to be under the control of the Taliban (and they're still trying to retake it), and Iraq where much of it is under the control of ISIS. Don't forget all the other Islamist factions in various places, such as the ones trying to take over Syria (which includes ISIS but also several other extremist factions), and I'm sure I'm missing a bunch.

                      But somehow it's "religious bigotry" to point out that Islamic extremists enjoy wide, popular support throughout the Middle East.

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @05:32AM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @05:32AM (#263082)

                  It's like any religious interpretation - if you have evil in your heart you'll pick the passages that can be used to support your evil and ignore the ones that contradict it. If you have good in your heart you'll pick the passages that support your good. That includes people who demonize a religion too. You can tell runaway has evil in his heart because he's so quick to find it in others. Kind of like all those anti-gay conservatives who are actually in the closet - projecting their own fear and self-loathing on to others. He sees jihad as permission to make his bigotry and intolerance acceptable because "they did it first."

                  • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday November 14 2015, @09:41AM

                    by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @09:41AM (#263144) Journal

                    Interesting point of view. Gays project fear and self-loathing . . .

                    YOUR words, Pal, not mine.

                    --
                    On the plus side, I am completely immune to flash-bang grenades. - Helen Keller
                    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:34PM

                      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:34PM (#263281)

                      Interesting point of view. Gays project fear and self-loathing . . .

                      YOUR words, Pal, not mine.

                      What a perfect example! You just did exactly what I accused you of - picking the part to support your view and ignoring the part that contradicts so that you can feel justified about the evil in your heart.

                      Here's the full statement:

                      Kind of like all those anti-gay conservatives who are actually in the closet - projecting their own fear and self-loathing on to others

                      So no, those were your words, buddy. Expressing the shit in your heart and literally trying to blame it on me for doing it first.

                      Could you be any less self-aware?

                      • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:44PM

                        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:44PM (#263284) Journal

                        You're not being very rational here. Anti-gay conservatives who are actually in the closet are - by definition - gay. So, you are quite clearly stating that gays project fear and self loathing. Your statements have absolutely nothing to do with any evil that may or may not be in my heart.

                        Again, those are YOUR words, not mine.

                        Intersting, indeed.

                        --
                        On the plus side, I am completely immune to flash-bang grenades. - Helen Keller
                        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @05:15PM

                          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @05:15PM (#263331)

                          Wow, your lack of self-awareness is stunning in the size of its depth.

                          • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday November 14 2015, @05:23PM

                            by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @05:23PM (#263339) Journal

                            Typical SJW kind of comeback. If I'm to stupid to understand, why do you bother to try arguing with me? You keep coming back, and coming back, but you don't say anything. Keep this up, and I'm going to file for divorce, and get an injunction on your ass for stalking.

                            --
                            On the plus side, I am completely immune to flash-bang grenades. - Helen Keller
                            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @07:18PM

                              by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @07:18PM (#263395)

                              > If I'm to stupid to understand, why do you bother to try arguing with me?

                              Because your purpose in life is to be a foil. A cautionary tale for people who think racists aren't idiots.

                              • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday November 14 2015, @07:21PM

                                by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @07:21PM (#263400) Journal

                                Well, one of us appears to be to stupid to understand that Islam is not a race. Think about it.

                                --
                                On the plus side, I am completely immune to flash-bang grenades. - Helen Keller
                                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @08:10PM

                                  by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @08:10PM (#263430)

                                  > Well, one of us appears to be to stupid to understand that Islam is not a race. Think about it.

                                  Foiled again.

                                  Islam is not a race but you are still a racist. [redflag.org.au]
                                  Debunking the “Islam is Not a Race!” Argument [wordpress.com]

                                  Meanwhile even the OED says you are wrong: [oxforddictionaries.com]

                                  race:
                                  1.1 A group of people sharing the same culture, history, language, etc.; an ethnic group:
                                      example: "They sought to weld the country's diverse ethnicities into a Brazilian race defined in historical and cultural terms."

                                  • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday November 14 2015, @08:21PM

                                    by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @08:21PM (#263435) Journal

                                    I've run out of patience, and you've ceased to be amusing, so I'm not wasting time on your links. Islam is not a race. No amount of blathering will change that. Islam is a religious political structure, commonly followed by Arabs, Black Africans, and a multitude of Asians and Pacific islanders, as well as smaller populations in the western world. In point of fact, Islam hardly recognizes race, as near as I can tell. Islam sees men as men, and women as women, one of them being the property of the other. Islam is a patriarchal society that is equally applicable to all races.

                                    You lose this one, Pal.

                                    --
                                    On the plus side, I am completely immune to flash-bang grenades. - Helen Keller
                                    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @10:50PM

                                      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @10:50PM (#263487)

                                      > I've run out of patience, and you've ceased to be amusing, so I'm not wasting time on your links

                                      lol. Are you sure you didn't read any of those links because you practically quoted what one said. Are you not the greatest parody of racism on this site?

                                      > You lose this one, Pal.

                                      Yeah, sure I did. The Oxford English Dictionary just kicked your ass.

                • (Score: 1) by rufty on Saturday November 14 2015, @11:46PM

                  by rufty (381) on Saturday November 14 2015, @11:46PM (#263502)

                  Just to say I've heard about the same sentiment, also from a Lebanese guy, back when I was at Uni.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:23AM

                by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:23AM (#263044)

                > All Muslims are taught to wage Jihad - the lessons are ingested with mother's milk

                Jesus fucking christ. You fucking hitler wannabe.

              • (Score: 2) by Beryllium Sphere (r) on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:23AM

                by Beryllium Sphere (r) (5062) on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:23AM (#263046)

                to find out what the concept really means to the people who practice it.

              • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Zz9zZ on Saturday November 14 2015, @09:09AM

                by Zz9zZ (1348) on Saturday November 14 2015, @09:09AM (#263137)

                Gonna have to agree with some other comments on your post. You are obviously biased in the extreme. A few bad apples etc., and you are generalizing to the majority of humanity. Muslims are the majority, so given your opinion it is a MIRACLE that anyone else is still alive...

                There are extremists in every culture, and I'm sick and tired of people venting their frustration and hatred at some group because it is convenient. Read some history, learn some shit. Get a broader perspective. Meet some people and realize that there is no general boogeyman, just some assholes in EVERY community.

                Muslims beheading people, Christians blowing up abortion clinics and killing various people, Mormons knocking on EVERYONE'S door, Jehovah's witnesses keeping their women down, Buddhists judging the carnivores, FSMers eating spaghetti in some weird ritual to their god... C'MON!

                LIVE AND LET LIVE!

                --
                ~Tilting at windmills~
                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 16 2015, @04:07PM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 16 2015, @04:07PM (#263981)

                  LIVE AND LET LIVE!

                  (You know you did, you know you did, you know you did...)

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 18 2015, @03:50AM

                by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 18 2015, @03:50AM (#264686)

                I am a seasoned traveller, and have visited several predominantly Muslim countries in both the Middle-East and in Asia and *not once* have I feared for my safety based on religious grounds (on scary traffic, yes, but not for fear of being labelled an "infidel" or an "enemy of Isalm"). Absolutely no-one was wanting to wage war against me, or to harm me because of my quite obvious "lack of Isalm". In fact the general feel seemed to be the same as for all cultures that I've come across, most people want essentially the same thing - peace, safety, food, shelter, laughs, friends.

                I understand how scared or bigoted people might try to equate all Muslims with these extremists, however that equation is simply not true. Not at all.

            • (Score: 5, Informative) by Hairyfeet on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:44AM

              by Hairyfeet (75) <reversethis-{moc ... {8691tsaebssab}> on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:44AM (#263060) Journal

              Except you can count the number of crazy Christian attacks on the west with two hands with fingers left over AND every mainstream religion attacked them as the nutbars that they are. Now lets compare this to Islam where you will run out of fingers and toes in a single month and you will be hard pressed to find most imams calling them out as apostates because they know what their book says and more importantly HOW their book works.

              For those that do not know their "prophet" actually did something that was REALLY fricking smart when he designed their religion. He saw that other religions had conflicting passages and came up with something bloody brilliant to solve this problem and its REALLY simple, ready? 'Anything that comes later supersedes anything that comes before' and with that one little move he completely solved the conflicting passages issues. Of course if you look at what actually comes later, the Hadiths? Its all "Jihad jihad jihad" while all the peaceful stuff? Yeah that came first and is therefor superseded, its really only historical. I'll leave with a collection of quotes from the quran, you can decide for yourself how peaceful they are...

              Quran 4:89: They (infidels) desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

              Quran 8:12: Instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers;

              Quran 2:191: kill the disbelievers wherever we find them

              Quran 22:19-22: for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods.

              Quran 8:12: Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.

              Quran 8:7: Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: Wipe the infidels out to the last.

              Quran 8:59: The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them. They are your enemy and Allah's enemy.

              Quran 8:60: Prepare against them whatever arms and cavalry you can muster that you may strike terror in the enemies of Allah, and others besides them not known to you.

              Quran 9.29 Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

              Quran 47:4: Strike off the heads of the disbelievers and, after making a wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives.

              --
              ACs are never seen so don't bother. Always ready to show SJWs for the racists they are.
              • (Score: 4, Informative) by vux984 on Saturday November 14 2015, @06:38AM

                by vux984 (5045) on Saturday November 14 2015, @06:38AM (#263100)

                Except you can count the number of crazy Christian attacks on the west with two hands with fingers left over

                20th century?

                IRA, Nazi. Both were more political than religious in nature but religion was a factor in the conflict and the particpants were nonetheless mostly Christians who reconciled/rationalized their actions with their faith. And that's my point. Muslim extremists are using Islamic texts as a pretext and justification to do what they WANT to do: seize power and set them selves up in power. The texts really aren't the real motivation. the texts are the rationalization. Just as Christians found ways to rationalize their actions with the texts in the past.

                • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Hairyfeet on Saturday November 14 2015, @07:22AM

                  by Hairyfeet (75) <reversethis-{moc ... {8691tsaebssab}> on Saturday November 14 2015, @07:22AM (#263108) Journal

                  LOLWut? The Nazis HATED Christianity, they threw plenty of priests in the camps with everybody else, try reading Himmler and you'll find that other than a little lip service pre 36 before they had full power they thought Christianity was crap. And as for the IRA? They wanted their country back, if they could get the people on their side by singing the praises of Bozo? They would have done so.

                  Sorry but not even close, and kinda sad that you had to try to bring in a group that despised religion and one that simply used it to gain press to try to compare it to a worldwide totalitarian political movement that honestly makes the NSDAP look cuddly by comparison. It has been shown time and time again the more Muslims a country has? The more violence it has. Look at the countries that are 100% Muslims...are they peaceful? Nope, in fact they are war torn shitholes. What you have is a religion with beliefs in the middle ages with access to 21st century technology.....a bad combination and sooner or later we will have to wake the fuck up and realize their values and ours are mutually incompatible.

                  --
                  ACs are never seen so don't bother. Always ready to show SJWs for the racists they are.
                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @07:28AM

                    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @07:28AM (#263111)

                    It's because Muslims hate us for our Freedoms, has nothing to do with the West occupying and bombing their countries. So nothing like the IRA at all. Oh wait... yeah, no it is because of those things.

                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @07:38PM

                    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @07:38PM (#263413)

                    > LOLWut? The Nazis HATED Christianity

                    No, they used christianity for their own purposes. The priests they sent to the camps were the ones who did not cooperate with their co-option of christianity. Which is exactly what you are claiming about islam - a "totalitarian political movement."

                    Positive Christianity [wikipedia.org]

                    > It has been shown time and time again the more Muslims a country has? The more violence it has.

                    Correction, you and your fellow islamafoes have claimed it time and time again.

                    In fact:

                    Homicide rates in Muslim-majority countries average about two murders per annum per 100,000 people. In non-Muslim countries, the average rate is about 8 per 100,000. Murder rates fluctuate from year to year, but they are consistently low in Muslim societies. The homicide rate in Indonesia, the world’s largest Muslim country, is 1 per 100,000—one-fifth the rate of the world’s largest Christian country, the United States. Christian countries live with murder rates that are unknown in the Muslim world. Brazilians and Mexicans are used to murder rates in the 15-25 range; the rate in Venezuela tops 50. Turks, Egyptians, Iranians, and Malaysians live with rates in the 2-4 range

                    The world experienced 235 episodes of intrastate violence that claimed over one thousand lives between 1946 and 2007. A total of just over 21 million people lost their lives in these conflicts.

                    Huntington’s thesis about Muslim bloodiness fares badly when we look at the evidence. In predominantly Muslim countries, on average, 0.65 percent of the population perished in major episodes of intrastate violence. In non-Muslim countries, 0.72 percent died in such episodes on average. In the postwar period, Muslim countries suffered slightly less severely from loss of life in major episodes of political violence than non-Muslim countries.

                    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/02/15/no-islam-isn-t-inherently-violent-and-the-math-proves-it.html [thedailybeast.com]

                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @11:57PM

                    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @11:57PM (#263505)

                    WTF? This drivel got modereated "Insightful"?
                    HITLER WAS CHRISTIAN!
                    "Besides that, I believe one thing: there is a Lord God! And this Lord God creates the peoples." Adolf Hitler
                    "I had excellent opportunity to intoxicate myself with the solemn splendor of the brilliant church festivals. As was only natural, the abbot seemed to me, as the village priest had once seemed to my father, the highest and most desirable ideal." Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)
                    "We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations; we have stamped it out" Adolf Hitler
                    HITLER WAS A FUCKING ALTAR BOY! [answers.com]

                  • (Score: 4, Informative) by vux984 on Sunday November 15 2015, @01:32PM

                    by vux984 (5045) on Sunday November 15 2015, @01:32PM (#263635)

                    The Nazis HATED Christianity,

                    No they really didn't. Most of them identified themselves AS Christians. Most German people identified AS Christians. Hitler self identfied as Christian.

                    they threw plenty of priests in the camps with everybody else

                    The Nazi's disposed of priests who weren't going along with their nutjob plans the same way they dealt with anyone else who wasn't on board with their nutjob plans.

                    That's no different than the various extremist Muslim groups killing other Muslims who aren't on board with their nutjob plans. (That is to say -- In this modern conflict, not only are different the extremist factions killing eachother -- they are also killing the Muslim moderates who disagree with them.)

                    There are many commonalities with Nazi's christianity; from Hitler seeking to legitimize his regime with the vatican -- to framing the holocaust against the jews as carrying out a divine mandate. Religion may not have been the centerpiece to the degree it is to ISIS, but the German's were by and large Christians from the top of the military food chain to the farmers in the countryside, and they'd reconciled the war with their faith. They went to church every Sunday. They believed the war was God was restoring his faithful German's to their rightful place; taking what what was rightfuly theirs back from the Jews, etc.

                    It has been shown time and time again the more Muslims a country has? The more violence it has. Look at the countries that are 100% Muslims...are they peaceful?

                    Actual statistics and evidence really don't support any of these claims at all.
                    Yes, you have Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya as predominantly Islam.
                    But you have Myanmar (90% buddist), Rwanda (94% Christian), Columbia (92% Christian), Congo (50% Christian, 45% other, 2% islam), Zimbabwe (65% Christian), El Salvador (86% Christian....)

                    Violence and war corresponds far more to poverty than it does with Religion.

                    And you can't point to the current wars in the middle east as proof of anything. The West has been waging proxy wars there for decades and exploiting the region for oil. After a couple generations of that, there'd be extremist violent factions breeding there no matter what religion the local population was.

                    People are all much the same. Those people happen to be Muslim, so when you shit on them stir them up the extremist factions that emerge are going to be justifying their actions with Islam with God on their side. Just as the IRA and the Nazi's were composed of Christians with God on THEIR side. The problem isn't Islam.

                    Any religion, indeed ANY set of beliefs can be twisted and perverted by an extremist. Its why one of my first examples in this thread was a reference to the United States and its traditions of law. Laws which are time and again twisted and subverted to do something vile when it suits those that benefit from it or when they are afraid. If the United States manages to effortlessly subvert its own constitution -- to intern the Japanese in concentration in the 20th century, random (and not so random) individuals in Gauntanamo Bay in the 21st, it just goes to show you just how malleable things are. What chance does any religion stand?

                    If a people find they need to justify something, God WILL be on their side, their religion WILL justify whatever action they take; and even their laws WILL not only allow it, but will have ALWAYS allowed it. Even if they hadn't interpreted them that way before and it goes against everything they literally say. That is not a feature of Islam, that is a feature of people.

                    worldwide totalitarian political movement that honestly makes the NSDAP look cuddly by comparison

                    Say what now? This just batshit. Their is no worldwide totalitarian movement there are several different factions that are literally at war with eachother within Islam. Multiple different extremist groups all at war with eachother, and at war with the moderates.

                    Look at list of the factions fighting in Syria alone.

                    • (Score: 2) by Hairyfeet on Sunday November 15 2015, @01:44PM

                      by Hairyfeet (75) <reversethis-{moc ... {8691tsaebssab}> on Sunday November 15 2015, @01:44PM (#263639) Journal

                      For your education, and what would have happened if Hitler had won, Himmler on religion [worldfuturefund.org] including speeches and audio recordings with translation. Allow me to highlight one excerpt.."We will have to deal with Christianity in a tougher way than hitherto. We must settle accounts with this Christianity, this greatest of plagues that could have happened to us in our history, which has weakened us in every conflict. If our generation does not do it then it would I think drag on for a long time. We must overcome it within ourselves. "

                      Yep sounds like a lover of Christ to me, uh huh.

                      --
                      ACs are never seen so don't bother. Always ready to show SJWs for the racists they are.
                      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 15 2015, @03:08PM

                        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 15 2015, @03:08PM (#263652)

                        > We must settle accounts with this Christianity,
                        >
                        >Yep sounds like a lover of Christ to me, uh huh.

                        As already mentioned they didn't like some parts of christianity, they were pushing their own sect. [wikipedia.org] That is the way it is done, nothing unique to the nazis.

                      • (Score: 2) by vux984 on Sunday November 15 2015, @09:02PM

                        by vux984 (5045) on Sunday November 15 2015, @09:02PM (#263758)

                        Yes Himmler was fascinated with Hinduism, and yes Himmler made some speeches. Himmler also had lots of enemies within the party. To credit all of Nazi Germany or even the Nazi party as sharing his personal religious views and vision for the future is a gross over statement.

                        Nazi Germany including Hitler himself was overwhelmingly Catholic. It's absurd to claim you know what would have happened if they'd won. But I think its pretty doubtful millions of Germans including most of the Nazi party leadership would have all simply gone along with abandoning their faith just because Himmler said so. Its far more likely that if the Nazi's won, with Rome under Nazi control, that a Nazi sympathizer would have been installed as Pope.

                        • (Score: 2) by Hairyfeet on Monday November 16 2015, @05:05AM

                          by Hairyfeet (75) <reversethis-{moc ... {8691tsaebssab}> on Monday November 16 2015, @05:05AM (#263860) Journal

                          Good Lord you aren't gonna accept your wrongness are you? Well you want me to wallpaper the place with Hitler quotes on religion? Really not a problem..

                          "We demand freedom for all religious confessions in the state, insofar as they do not endanger its existence or conflict with the customs and moral sentiments of the Germanic race. The party as such represents the standpoint of a positive Christianity, without owing itself to a particular confession...." that is from the fricking NSDAP handbook.

                          "As long as leadership from above was not lacking, the people fulfilled their duty and obligation overwhelmingly. Whether Protestant pastor or Catholic priest, both together and particularly at the first flare, there really existed in both camps but a single holy German Reich, for whose existence and future each man turned to his own heaven." Mein Kampf Vol 1 Chap 1...sounds like he wants his OWN religion based on Germany NOT any particular official religion to me..more? Might want to look at his views on propaganda, aka lie your ass off to get folks on board..

                          "To whom should propaganda be addressed? … It must be addressed always and exclusively to the masses… The function of propaganda does not lie in the scientific training of the individual, but in calling the masses' attention to certain facts, processes, necessities, etc., whose significance is thus for the first time placed within their field of vision. The whole art consists in doing this so skilfully that everyone will be convinced that the fact is real, the process necessary, the necessity correct, etc. But since propaganda is not and cannot be the necessity in itself … its effect for the most part must be aimed at the emotions and only to a very limited degree at the so-called intellect… it's soundness is to be measured exclusively by its effective result". (Main Kampf, Vol 1, Ch 6 and Ch 12) Let us not forget this was the guy that swore up and down Germany only wanted peace with France...right up until he rolled the tanks. I think we have more than enough evidence that what he sold the masses and what he actually believed was two totally different things...More?

                          "As a human being it is my duty to see to it that humanity will not suffer the same catastrophic collapse as did that old civilization two thousand years ago, a civilization which was driven to its ruin by the Jews. . . I am convinced that I am really a devil and not a Christian if I do not feel compassion and do not wage war, as Christ did two thousand years ago, against those who are steeling and exploiting these poverty-stricken people."...that is from a speech waaay back in 1922, even back then it sounds like he was simply using the old "Jews killed Christ" routine to get the people on his side for a genocide. Might want to look up "The stab in the back" to see why as a soldier of Germany, regardless of religion, he HATED Jews with a passion, because it was "common knowledge" that the Germans were gonna "win the war" but Jewish bankers stabbed them in the back.

                          Sorry but we have more than enough evidence that the Nazi leadership gave not a single fuck about ANY religion except when it could be used to further the goals of the state. It was made clear that the "morality of the state" would have been controlled by Himmler and the SS and he certainly had no fucks to give about Christianity, and the rest of the leadership only cared as much as it would fall in line with their already chosen goals. Again if a church leader said "this is wrong"? Well his ass could get in the camp next to the Jew, they had ZERO respect or compassion for anybody just because they were one religion or another.

                          --
                          ACs are never seen so don't bother. Always ready to show SJWs for the racists they are.
                          • (Score: 2) by vux984 on Monday November 16 2015, @09:20PM

                            by vux984 (5045) on Monday November 16 2015, @09:20PM (#264107)

                            .sounds like he wants his OWN religion based on Germany

                            Of course they did; it even has its own name.
                            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_Christianity [wikipedia.org]

                            That's par for the course with any nutjob extremist; start by defining the way religion 'ought' to be; then declare that everyone who disagrees is interpreting it wrong.

                            That's not a Nazi rejection of Christianity any more than ISIS is rejecting Islam today.

                            Both did the same damned thing, took the parts they needed/wanted, downplayed or reinterpreted anything that didn't match the propaganda. Kill anyone who didn't get on board.

                            The context of this argument is ISIS relationship with Islam. And its the same as the Nazi relationship with Christianity. You can't declare on one hand that the Nazi's hated Christianity because they inveted their own pro-German racist version of it and then started killing priests who didn't think it was right while at the same time declare that Islam is the root problem with ISIS... when ISIS did the same thing: they made distorted version of it, declared everyone else wrong, including other Muslims and then started the killing; fully justified by their distortion of their religion.

                            Its exactly the same thing.

                            Good Lord you aren't gonna accept your wrongness are you?

                            Not when I'm not wrong.

                            Tell you what, though I'll concede the Nazi's hated Christianity by their actions; if you concede that ISIS hates Islam by their equivalent actions.
                            Because I don't care whether you you call what they did as:

                            a) 'pro-their-own-relgion' (because they both took their religion and integrated it with their propaganda)
                              or
                            b) 'anti-their-own-religion' (because they both took their religion and grossly distorted it to serve their propaganda)

                            as long as you call it the same thing for both groups.

                            (And we surely agree that both groups are anti-other-peoples-religion.)

                            • (Score: 2) by Hairyfeet on Tuesday November 17 2015, @01:34AM

                              by Hairyfeet (75) <reversethis-{moc ... {8691tsaebssab}> on Tuesday November 17 2015, @01:34AM (#264165) Journal

                              Its off the front page so nobody is gonna read this therefor I do not care to continue this conversation, goodbye.

                              --
                              ACs are never seen so don't bother. Always ready to show SJWs for the racists they are.
                • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:32PM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:32PM (#263305)

                  > The texts really aren't the real motivation. the texts are the rationalization.

                  About two years ago there was a widely reported survey that compared the level of a person's literacy in their own religion with their level of extremism - not just muslims, but christians and jews. The results were that the more extreme their ideology, the less knowledge they had about their own religion.

                  I wish I had bookmarked one of those reports because now all my google-fu can find are stories about general religious literacy - including knowledge about other religions and how atheists have the most general knowledge about religion of any group.

              • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @07:30AM

                by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @07:30AM (#263112)

                > kill them wherever you find them

                Are all your quotes as out-of-context as this one? (The clue was in that you left the lower case letter at the start of the quote, or end with a period, so weren't even quoting a complete sentence. You need to fix that if you want to get away with it in the future.)

                2:190 Fight in the way of God those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. God does not like transgressors.
                2:191 And kill them wherever you find them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah [Persecution] is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.
                2:192 And if they cease, then indeed, God is Forgiving and Merciful.

                So that part you quoted was conditional on them already having started a war with you on your own territory. Which I guess you can say has already happened. Thanks Americans.

                • (Score: 2) by BK on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:17PM

                  by BK (4868) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:17PM (#263275)

                  I see some low numbers there. I'm pretty sure that's the bit that was superseded.

                  --
                  4 out of 5 dentists choose Brand X. The other is just a denier.
                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @06:03PM

                    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @06:03PM (#263362)

                    > I see some low numbers there. I'm pretty sure that's the bit that was superseded.

                    Are you saying the quran is written in chronological order?

                    Lol. So cute. Such an expert on why Islam is evil and you don't even know the most basic mechanical facts about the religion.

              • (Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:21PM

                by Phoenix666 (552) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:21PM (#263251) Journal

                crazy Christian attacks from the west

                Those are the google terms you were looking for. Lots of results for those. Still happening, actually. Have never really stopped. Crazy Christian attacks from the West have been going on for centuries and have killed more people than Hitler, Stalin, and muslim terrorists combined (although possibly not more than Mao's Great Leap Forward). Muslim terrorists are pikers next to the crazy Christians that de-populated two entire continents of the world.

                --
                Washington DC delenda est.
                • (Score: 2) by Hairyfeet on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:00PM

                  by Hairyfeet (75) <reversethis-{moc ... {8691tsaebssab}> on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:00PM (#263293) Journal

                  Citation please, or are you gonna seriously try to claim actual wars like Iraq were crusades?

                  --
                  ACs are never seen so don't bother. Always ready to show SJWs for the racists they are.
                • (Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Saturday November 14 2015, @06:23PM

                  by tangomargarine (667) on Saturday November 14 2015, @06:23PM (#263370)

                  If you're referring to the Native American depopulation, supposedly the "Smallpox Blanket Maneuver" is generally thought to be a myth. You sound to be straining the definition of "attack" rather hard.

                  Citations needed

                  --
                  "Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:57PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:57PM (#263312)

                > 'Anything that comes later supersedes anything that comes before'

                Except that's not actually how "abrogation" works - there is a lot more to it than simple chronological order. It is waaaay more complicated than that and is the subject of tons and tons of debate within the religion. For example, some groups think 400+ verses have been abrogated while others think less than 20, some even say zero. [wikipedia.org]

                Anyone unfamiliar with rhetoric like hairyfeet's should realize that his knowledge is the result of the islamafoe echo-chamber - a section of the internet populated by non-experts who have so little literacy in the cultures they criticize that they don't even know what they don't know. It is invective based on ignorance and cherry-picking and then declaring themselves the final word on things that tens of thousands of people who have dedicated their lives to studying have argued over for centuries. There is so much disagreement within islam that anyone trying to declare what is "true islam" is only revealing their own nature, not anything meaningful about actual muslims.

                • (Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Saturday November 14 2015, @06:26PM

                  by tangomargarine (667) on Saturday November 14 2015, @06:26PM (#263372)

                  If there is no consensus at all by experts, how can you say he's definitely wrong?

                  There are at least a few groups that probably have that stance, and as is mentioned repeatedly all across this comment section, a small fraction of Islam is what we're talking about here.

                  --
                  "Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @07:43PM

                    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @07:43PM (#263416)

                    > If there is no consensus at all by experts, how can you say he's definitely wrong?

                    He is wrong in saying that it is a universal truth about islam.

                    > a small fraction of Islam is what we're talking about here.

                    No, HE is talking about all muslims. The reasoning is "if you aren't a crazy extremist you are doing islam wrong."

            • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @05:11AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @05:11AM (#263070)

              Your reasoning is wrong. You establish that Islam has problems just like some other ideologies, however the conclusion you make disregards the fact that not all ideologies equally lend themselves to radicalization.

              Islam is dangerous because it teaches extreme contempt, and arguably, even outright violence towards heathens. It doesn't matter if "it's just a metaphor", all that matters is that it's easy to convince Muslims that it's not. It is a problem because it is a very convenient excuse. A lot of places have suffered equally terrible things, but you don't see radical movements elsewhere nearly as much as you see them in Islamic communities.

          • (Score: 3, Informative) by Phoenix666 on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:18AM

            by Phoenix666 (552) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:18AM (#263016) Journal

            The Google machine says there are 1.57 billion muslims in the world. Let's say there are 10,000 bona fide muslim terrorists in the world. That's less than 0.0007% of the bunch. Even if you veered into wild hyperbole and asserted there are actually 1 million bona fide muslim terrorists in the world, that's still less than 0.07% of the total. Statistically, it seems to me they have a pretty solid claim to "religion of peace" if their bad apples are less than a rounding error.

            --
            Washington DC delenda est.
            • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:12AM

              by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:12AM (#263038) Journal

              Isis/Isil/Daesh has far more than 10,000 rabid terrorists at it's command. I prefer the term Daesh, because more rational Muslims recognize that Daesh are a bunch of pretenders. Although I'm not a linguist, despite the fact that I speak no Arabic or Farsi, I'm aware that Daesh is the derogatory form of Isis or Isil. In effect, more rational Muslims are calling them heretics, apostate, swine, and worse. But, the fact remains that Daesh tens of thousands of swine at their command. They have overrun large parts of two countries, and they are flexing their muscles in yet more countries. A mere ten thousand militants couldnt' accomplish what Daesh has done.

              --
              On the plus side, I am completely immune to flash-bang grenades. - Helen Keller
              • (Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:42PM

                by Phoenix666 (552) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:42PM (#263206) Journal

                Runaway, even if they had 10,000,000 terrorists, which they don't, it'd still be less than 1% of all the muslims in the world. Do all Christians in the world deserve scorn and carpet bombing because Westboro Baptist church is running around vomiting hatred on everyone? Wouldn't you think that it's a little over the top to tar all Christians with the same brush because radical evangelical Christians have assassinated abortion doctors and bombed clinics? Is it mete to excoriate all Jews because a bunch of whackadoodle orthodox men were throwing rocks at a bus full of girls recently because they were daring to try to go to school?

                And let's indulge in a little candor here: The United States helped manufacture the pricks in ISIS with the "War of Choice," which everybody said was a bad fucking idea to begin with, and which was ignored because Bush and Cheney wanted to give themselves a big oil payday. The US further shaped the ISIS guys by doing execrable stuff like Abu Ghraib.

                --
                Washington DC delenda est.
                • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:54PM

                  by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:54PM (#263210) Journal

                  Phoenix, I can almost justify nuking both Mecca and the Vatican, for the same reasons. Bomb them, then jeer at all the "believers". "God doesn't give a damn, not for his capital, not for his innocents, not for his believers."

                  But, you will probably admit that the Vatican is a less virulent and less violent threat than Mecca is, today.

                  --
                  On the plus side, I am completely immune to flash-bang grenades. - Helen Keller
            • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Whoever on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:49AM

              by Whoever (4524) on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:49AM (#263063) Journal

              Statistically, it seems to me they have a pretty solid claim to "religion of peace" if their bad apples are less than a rounding error.

              The problem is the inaction of the majority against the extremists. Some years ago, there was a mullah preaching hate, violence, murder in the largest mosque in London. This wasn't in a back-water mosque in a backwater city. This was the largest mosque in a major cosmopolitan city.

              He was allowed to preach his violent message for 5 years before the police stepped in.

              You can't claim to be a religion of peace while allowing the preaching of violence in your places of worship.

              So, no. It's not a religion of peace, despite the many peaceful followers.

              • (Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:35PM

                by Phoenix666 (552) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:35PM (#263201) Journal

                And as far as I know, Westboro Baptist church is still preaching violence in the United States without anyone having stepped in to stop it. Does that mean that Christians have no claim to "religion of peace?"

                --
                Washington DC delenda est.
                • (Score: 2) by Whoever on Saturday November 14 2015, @05:53PM

                  by Whoever (4524) on Saturday November 14 2015, @05:53PM (#263357) Journal

                  And as far as I know, Westboro Baptist church is still preaching violence in the United States without anyone having stepped in to stop it.

                  Remind me again when someone from the Westboro Baptist church preaches in a major church in a major city. Also, while they may advocate hate, I think that they are very careful not to advocate violence.

                  Summary: it's not comparable.

                  Also, what you are attempting is moral equivalence. It has no impact on my original claim.

              • (Score: 2) by Murdoc on Tuesday November 17 2015, @12:40AM

                by Murdoc (2518) on Tuesday November 17 2015, @12:40AM (#264153) Homepage
                Just because you're not hearing it, doesn't mean it's not happening. Take a look at this: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/qasim-rashid/why-wont-major-media-report_b_6162592.html [huffingtonpost.com] Apparently there are plenty of Muslims speaking out like crazy against extremism, it's just that our media doesn't like to report it. Why is that? Could it be that they want to control the narrative to stir up fear? Sound implausible? Try searching the web sometime for "Muslims against extremism" or "Muslims against terrorism".
                • (Score: 2) by Whoever on Tuesday November 17 2015, @02:44AM

                  by Whoever (4524) on Tuesday November 17 2015, @02:44AM (#264184) Journal

                  As I acknowledged, there are many peaceful Muslims. However, they are also misrepresenting their own holy book, which has clear messages on how non-believers should be treated. Yes, the earliest texts are peaceful, but later texts are not kind to non-followers of Islam.

                  Also, as I pointed out earlier, Islam is mostly misogynistic. It's attitudes like that which make extremism easier to promote. Just google "Trojan Horse schools" for more examples of support for extreme versions of Islam amongst large numbers of muslims.

            • (Score: 2) by Whoever on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:52AM

              by Whoever (4524) on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:52AM (#263064) Journal

              And it's a deeply misogynistic religion.

              • (Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:31PM

                by Phoenix666 (552) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:31PM (#263200) Journal

                And so are Christianity and Judaism if you go by what's in the Bible. It's OK for a father to have sex with his daughters? Really? Or, how about those orthodox Jews in Israel throwing rocks at a bus full of girls who were trying to go to school, *because they were trying to go to school*? How about Christians in the US trying to tell women what to do with their own bodies all the time?

                I don't think misogyny in Islam is OK, but let's not single them out for special scorn when the other Abrahamic religions are just as guilty.

                --
                Washington DC delenda est.
                • (Score: 2) by Whoever on Saturday November 14 2015, @06:03PM

                  by Whoever (4524) on Saturday November 14 2015, @06:03PM (#263363) Journal

                  And so are Christianity and Judaism if you go by what's in the Bible. It's OK for a father to have sex with his daughters? Really? Or, how about those orthodox Jews in Israel throwing rocks at a bus full of girls who were trying to go to school, *because they were trying to go to school*? How about Christians in the US trying to tell women what to do with their own bodies all the time?

                  Did I state that either religion is a religion of peace? As far as Christianity goes, the old testament is only quoted by those Christian sects who are confused about their own religion. As far as I know, the Catholic church doesn't consider the old testament to be authoritative (example, the Pope's recent statements about evolution), so your examples above don't apply. Again, moral equivalence.

                  Orthodox Jews: I don't claim that they are a religion of peace.

                  However, I will state again: when there is actual violence promoted in a major church in a major western city, and not just by some tiny sect in a backwater, then the same claim to be peaceful is clearly not true.

                  • (Score: 2) by Anal Pumpernickel on Saturday November 14 2015, @10:20PM

                    by Anal Pumpernickel (776) on Saturday November 14 2015, @10:20PM (#263478)

                    Did I state that either religion is a religion of peace? As far as Christianity goes, the old testament is only quoted by those Christian sects who are confused about their own religion. As far as I know, the Catholic church doesn't consider the old testament to be authoritative (example, the Pope's recent statements about evolution), so your examples above don't apply. Again, moral equivalence.

                    In other words, they pick and choose which bullshit they want to listen to. I guess that is good in a way, but don't pretend any of these dumb fuck theists are being even slightly consistent.

                • (Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Saturday November 14 2015, @06:40PM

                  by tangomargarine (667) on Saturday November 14 2015, @06:40PM (#263377)

                  And so are Christianity and Judaism if you go by what's in the Bible. It's OK for a father to have sex with his daughters?

                  Technically that's relying on what *isn't* in the Bible. Apparently there's debate over whether it was left out because it was "too obvious," it was a scribal error, or it actually means something. And then there was the instance [biblegateway.com] where Lot's daughters got him drunk and slept with him. Presumably they thought he wouldn't go along with it otherwise? I dunno. Lot was kind of an idiot.

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incest_in_the_Bible [wikipedia.org]

                  How about Christians in the US trying to tell women what to do with their own bodies all the time?

                  The other side of that argument being "thou shalt not murder." But I'm sure you're aware of all that already.

                  --
                  "Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
                  • (Score: 2) by Anal Pumpernickel on Saturday November 14 2015, @10:27PM

                    by Anal Pumpernickel (776) on Saturday November 14 2015, @10:27PM (#263483)

                    The other side of that argument being "thou shalt not murder."

                    That argument is rather ineffective because other people usually do not reside within your body. If they do, I can kick them from my property, and if that happens to kill them, then so be it. People have a fundamental right to control their own bodies, and someone else certainly doesn't have a fundamental right to live in mine, even if they require that to live. I won't allow myself to be forced to give organs to some person who would die without them, and I won't be forced to provide living space to some person within my own body.

                • (Score: 2) by Anal Pumpernickel on Saturday November 14 2015, @10:24PM

                  by Anal Pumpernickel (776) on Saturday November 14 2015, @10:24PM (#263481)

                  It's OK for a father to have sex with his daughters?

                  How is that sort of incest inherently misogynist?

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @10:24AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @10:24AM (#263161)

              Yeah how many religions of peace attack others for hearsay. Stonings, burnings, beheadings. Those acts are conducted by the everyday muslims in some contries.

              There are instances of it even happening in the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing_in_the_United_States [wikipedia.org]

              Anyone who believes its OK to stone someone to death for talking bad about Mo is someone that holds beliefs that are fundamentally incompatible with western culture. I dont have a problem with the people, I fucking hate their culture though. Your accused of stealing, there goes a hand. Accidentally blind someone, they take your eyes. Spill your Chai on the quran? Off with your head. Accused of adultury, stoning. Well for the chicks at least.

              All of those actions are coming from the somewhat reasonable ones. The Saudi government does this stuff, this is being done by "allies".

              Religion of peace my fucking ass. Bloodthirsty, vengeful, grudge holding, are much more apt descriptions of their religion.

        • (Score: 2) by Mr Big in the Pants on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:40AM

          by Mr Big in the Pants (4956) on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:40AM (#262917)

          You cannot ignore various country's foreign policy decisions in this either.

          Yes these groups are vile and spread hate and should be eliminated.

          But their recent heavy influx of recruits is not due to their highly successful advertising campaigns!

          You must remove the hate and abuse from all sides for this to go away.

          Unfortunately the world is populated with "modern humans" and thus this will never happen in the foreseeable future until this is resolved.

          Some suggest they will achieve this end themselves...

          • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:15AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:15AM (#262953)

            You must remove the hate and abuse from all sides for this to go away.

            Wrong. War is won by violence. It's the only way to impose your philosophy on others. If you are not prepared to do that, you will be replaced by those who are. "Removing hate" is idealistic bullshit and you might as well hold a knife to your own neck.

        • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Beryllium Sphere (r) on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:53AM

          by Beryllium Sphere (r) (5062) on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:53AM (#262973)

          Then they could spend the money setting up schools all around the world to bring up children in their world view.

          Something like that has happened within Islam. Saudi money has spread Wahhabism far beyond its natural reach. Nor are the Saudi clerics representative. When one of them ruled that anybody who says the earth is round was an enemy of Islam, there were gales of laughter in Egypt.

        • (Score: 2) by Beryllium Sphere (r) on Saturday November 14 2015, @06:36AM

          by Beryllium Sphere (r) (5062) on Saturday November 14 2015, @06:36AM (#263099)

          Such a comment fans the flames of hate. Those flames spread and are hard to douse before they destroy irreplaceable things and lives.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @07:11AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @07:11AM (#263106)

          So I suppose Irishness was the cause of IRA bombings in the UK?

        • (Score: 1) by cmdr_tofu on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:45PM

          by cmdr_tofu (5669) on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:45PM (#263243)

          It is a vile philosophy that justifies war against non-followers

          Oh you mean like the Crusades? ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades [wikipedia.org] )

          It seems like you are arguing in favor of religious discrimination, yet accusing others of Nazism. I, for one, believe in freedom of religion, and that the secular government trumps any religious concerns.

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Beryllium Sphere (r) on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:25AM

        by Beryllium Sphere (r) (5062) on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:25AM (#262901)

        The follow up to that thought is that to prevent horrors like this we need to counter the feelings and beliefs that lead up to them, as early as possible.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:18AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:18AM (#262984)

          counter [...] feelings

          What, by suppressing them? I don't think that's very healthy either.

      • (Score: 5, Interesting) by SanityCheck on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:34AM

        by SanityCheck (5190) on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:34AM (#262963)

        I'm not sure about that. A lot of European countries are monocultural. It's a fact. Look at Iceland. In Iceland they are very scared of losing their culture. It's a tiny country, getting closer and closer to a bigger continent. They want to maintain their culture and independence. What are you going to do? Invade them and force them to become multicultural?

        There is nothing wrong in wanting to maintain your own culture in a place where your ancestors have been for thousand+ years. I may feel comfortable living in a country that has people of different colors and sizes. I move to the US and did my best to become like everyone else here. I learned the language, I even strongly identify with the people here, even thou I was not born here. It is interesting place, and mostly one of a kind, where you can be welcomed with open arms. But I would be a total douche if I thought that a tiny country half way around the world not wanting to live the same way should yield to the American way.

        Now as far as people who want to move into a land that is not theirs AND not assimilate. That is not multiculturalism, that is a fuckin invasion. I have a little saying I pieced together over the years from what I noticed about what it means to be a man, and a master of one's own fate, and it goes something like this: "If you walk into a man's home and start telling him how he should run it, he will punch you and, you will deserve it. If you walk into a man's country and tell him how he should run it, he will kill you, and you will deserve it."

        • (Score: 2) by Beryllium Sphere (r) on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:28AM

          by Beryllium Sphere (r) (5062) on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:28AM (#263048)

          Interestingly, while the Icelandic government is blocking Syrian refugees, the people as a whole are pushing to bring in more of them. My favorite Icelandic blogger posted about how proud she was of her countrymen, and how shocked she was by the Facebook comments she got about how the refugees would threaten Iceland's purity.

          https://www.facebook.com/icelandweatherreport/?fref=nf [facebook.com]

          • (Score: 2) by SanityCheck on Saturday November 14 2015, @05:21AM

            by SanityCheck (5190) on Saturday November 14 2015, @05:21AM (#263079)

            When I say they are example of a culture that is trying to maintain their identity I didn't mean specifically when it comes to the migrants. That itself is one threat (although a big one). But there are other, smaller threats that are coming from all over. One example of them trying to stop it is things like this. [wikipedia.org] It's meant to try to protect their language from encroaching foreign influence form Europe and beyond. Just imagine if people see Hollywood movies and start naming their kids after Actors or even worse characters from the movies. A given name is the most iconic thing that defines a culture (Just look at all the people named Mohammad et al.). What a huge blow to have the names that have been used for centuries wiped out of existence by encroaching foreign culture.

            And yes of course just like with any country, there are two sides to the issue. I mean for every one person trying to conserve the culture, there is some younger person who hasn't reached the ripe age when they realize how much a culture means to its people (personal anecdote, I have recently in my 30s begun to think of how much my ancestral culture means to me, feelings I didn't really have until relatives around me started to die off from old age)

            But regardless of who is in which camp, and how many of them are, not being Icelandic we should best keep our commentary to minimum and stay the hell away, let them sort it out. Sure there might be 60% people, or even higher, who think it's OK to let in 10000 foreigners. But their opinions on the matter might change when the second generation of these migrants turn out to entrench themselves in a ghetto, not speaking the local language, and just cash government subsidies while studying in Madrasas all day. Being that Iceland is VERY atheist country (probably most in all of Europe), an ultra-religious minority looking to impose Shira on the population might not really sit well with even the most liberal of the lot.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @07:45AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @07:45AM (#263116)

          > If you walk into a man's country and tell him how he should run it, he will kill you, and you will deserve it.

          I've heard that before. It carries on: if you fly drones into a man's country and launch cruise missiles at him, he will welcome you as a liberator throwing petals at your feet and give you cheap oil.

      • (Score: 2) by HiThere on Saturday November 14 2015, @06:33PM

        by HiThere (866) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @06:33PM (#263374)

        Monoculture *is* a solution, but a vile one. Not as vile as killing everyone, which is also a solution.

        I don't know of a good solution, but there are lots of "solutions" to the stated problem. Most of them are worse than the existing problem. A good start would be to withdraw from the Middle East. Unfortunately, the past actions of various different foreign agents have stirred things up to such a point that it woud be quite difficult to do this without instigating another bloodbath...and breaking a lot of promises to people who decided to trust us (for various values of "us"). But it would be better than continuing to create new injustices.

        That said, if you look at history, our actions have not been any worse than those that have happened in that area over and over. Often without external stimulus. Personally I blame Tamerlane and his Mongols, as the Middle East had been settling down into a real civilization before that invasion (while Europe was still mainly barbaric). You can't really blame Mohammedism, as the various cities were all Mohammedan before the invasion of the Mongols. Afterwards the civilized Mohammedans had been killed, and a traumatized remanant took refuge in Egypt and locales. The current Muslim culture derived from that traumatized remanent. And the culture (as opposed to the individuals) is actually LESS paranoid than one could expect...but a bit more barbaric.

        Now how one should relate to such a culture is a bit difficult to tell. But a slap in the face is clearly not going to be productive of a good relationship.

        --
        Put not your faith in princes.
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:43AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:43AM (#262919)

      it sure is #toxic in here

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:47AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:47AM (#262923)

        Wow, just wow. It's 2015. I can't even!

      • (Score: 2) by fleg on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:48AM

        by fleg (128) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:48AM (#262926)

        yeah, humanity at its finest.

    • (Score: 4, Interesting) by Beryllium Sphere (r) on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:20AM

      by Beryllium Sphere (r) (5062) on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:20AM (#263041)

      for the people that they were trying to escape.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:33AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:33AM (#263056)

      Especially after their president says the state should be pushing their subjects to intermarry while of course he and his entire family marry only those that are of their Jewish faith. Don't ya just love hypocrisy?

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @07:53AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @07:53AM (#263122)

      And your statement is not racist, xenophobic, or at the very least segregationist (and that's being generous), how?

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:47PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:47PM (#263287)

        racist, xenophobic, or at the very least segregationist

        You say that like those are bad things! :^)

  • (Score: 2, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:03AM

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:03AM (#262885)

    :'(

  • (Score: 2, Interesting) by khallow on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:15AM

    by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:15AM (#262892) Journal
    I don't trust the reliability of this site's witness report [thelocal.fr], but if this is true:

    One reveller inside the Bataclan said: "I was in the front row, these guys just started shooting at everyone, they were shouting at people to lie down and stay down, they shot anyone who tried to run, then also shot at people on the ground, it was carnage."

    then that's a strong indication that they aren't planning to leave survivors. Of course, we have to ask ourselves how this witness got out to tell their tale.

    • (Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:33AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:33AM (#262909)

      My handy hint for breaking news is france24.fr, they have both french and english reports.

      Three figure death toll looming, once the events are totalled...

      • (Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:47AM

        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:47AM (#262924) Journal
        Thank you. I noticed the following blurb [france24.com]:

        Police reported at least two of the hostage takers were killed as elite units brought their operation at the Bataclan concert hall to an end.

        And in an elaboration of what you said, most of the deaths are currently stated as being from the Bataclan concert hall.

        Paris police authorities have put the latest death toll at 140, including 100 at the Bataclan concert venue, and 40 in attacks at other sites across the city.

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:20AM

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:20AM (#262896)

    so the serious stuff doesn't have that? I heard about 9/11 and some other important events on Slashdot and I think they said something like "jokes-not-appropriate dept". Although mentioning "anonymous cowards" at a time like this may not be the best either.

    • (Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:24AM

      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:24AM (#262899) Journal
      They had it originally in the "keep-your-head-down dept", then there was drama in the comments. They switched it to "rest-in-peace dept" which seems to work for everyone involved.
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:46AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:46AM (#262922)

        karl? hey i'm working in Vancouver Washington these days. hope your phd turned out okay.

        • (Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:10AM

          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:10AM (#262950) Journal
          Yea, it turned out well. Got it back in 2009. Currently, I'm doing accounting/auditing work in Yellowstone NP for a concessionaire.
    • (Score: 5, Informative) by n1 on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:44AM

      by n1 (993) on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:44AM (#262920) Journal

      Sometimes stories do not have departments, it's rare but it happens.

      It was my decision to not have one on this story. It's a serious, traumatic and on-going event, I would feel disrespectful and unprofessional to make light of it in any way, especially as an editor.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:52AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:52AM (#262929)

        awesome. planning to subscribe. I can only hope to hear about the singularity and/or nuclear ruin on soylentnews, with no dept. although the singularity can go with "from the * dept."

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:03AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:03AM (#262978)

          The singularity will be a joyous occasion, so it can be from the where-is-your-god-now dept.

      • (Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:03AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:03AM (#262977)

        As someone that has seen too much, a little humor is the last coping mechanism that keeps on working. It's okay to laugh when you are sad. People that can do that know how serious the situation truly is.

    • (Score: 2) by NCommander on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:55AM

      by NCommander (2) Subscriber Badge <mcasadevall@soylentnews.org> on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:55AM (#263035) Homepage Journal

      The field isn't mandatory, I've left it blank on times where I can't think of something in good taste, or when its just not appropriate.

      --
      Still always moving
  • (Score: 2) by Subsentient on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:23AM

    by Subsentient (1111) <{subsentient} {at} {universe2.us}> on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:23AM (#262897) Homepage Journal

    I can't find information on what the time in France was when this started.

    --
    "Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer." -Ferengi Rule of Acquisition #208
    • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:36AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:36AM (#262913)

      21:16 (CET) on 13 November 2015

  • (Score: 2, Interesting) by SomeGuy on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:24AM

    by SomeGuy (5632) on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:24AM (#262898)

    A little confused here. Am I supposed to be scared? The TV seems to think I should be scared, but I'm not scared. In fact, all I can think is - Yawn, I'm tired of this crap.

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Zz9zZ on Saturday November 14 2015, @09:19AM

      by Zz9zZ (1348) on Saturday November 14 2015, @09:19AM (#263138)

      Modded troll but I think it is a valid point. Just because our emotions are affected by these events should not blank out our rational minds. We have had repeated "attacks" and the media is constantly trying to keep us in a state of fear. How about being brave, and strong enough to stick to our convictions and NOT seek reprisal and vengeance?

      Much of the hatred from middle eastern countries comes from the meddling of "western" powers. We are now experiencing the repercussions for actions that most people do not even know about. Of course it is confusing, being lied to and deceived will do that... If we put all the historical facts on a Dr. Seuss type of timeline then no sane person would be surprised, and might in fact be annoyed by the overblown reaction of the media whenever a specific "side" is impacted.

      Thousands upon thousands of people have died due to collateral damage. Unintentional murder while trying to kill some bad guys. Yet the intentional killing of a few hundred innocents out of anger and vengeance is an atrocity beyond measure.... Both are horrible, and I can't decide which is worse. I'll fall back on logic, and say that mathematically the larger number of dead people is worse...

      Maybe its time we address these grievances and try to right the wrongs...

      --
      ~Tilting at windmills~
    • (Score: 2) by fritsd on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:55PM

      by fritsd (4586) on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:55PM (#263211) Journal

      If you're insufficiently scared, SomeGuy, then when you read the news, your attention focus may rest on the Climate change conference in Paris in 16 days [wikipedia.org].

      But now, your attention should firmly be fixed on BEING SCARED OF SAUDI-FUNDED TERRORISTS. OK? Oh look! A terrorist! That doesn't make sense!

      Terrorists, not climate or fossil fuels. In fact, don't mention the climate. I'm sure Rupert Murdoch and Marine le Pen won't.
      In fact, I'm sure those two will slander anyone, who tries to turn the media attention spotlight back, as a heartless bastard. And clamor for Hollande to step down, because he didn't protect his countrymen enough.

      I'm not heartless, I grieve for the innocent people, on their friday night out, murdered by these idiot IS terrorists, whom someone sent to Paris to do this attack.

      Any idea *why* the terrorists selected Paris on friday 13 november for their attack? If not, your guess is as good as this (admittedly tin-foil hat) speculation of mine.

      • (Score: 2) by fritsd on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:49PM

        by fritsd (4586) on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:49PM (#263245) Journal

        Just read on Le Monde, COP21 has not been derailed (yet?):

        http://www.lemonde.fr/cop21/article/2015/11/14/incertitude-sur-la-tenue-a-paris-de-la-cop-21_4809708_4527432.html [lemonde.fr] (in French)

        La COP21 a été abordée vendredi soir dès la première réunion de crise avec le président de la République et le gouvernement. « On enclenche le niveau maximal de sécurité mais, pour des raisons évidentes, on ne va pas rentrer dans tous les détails de ce dispositif de sécurité, dit un conseiller ministériel. Les frontières ne sont pas fermées, les délégués de tous les pays participant à la COP peuvent atterrir à Paris, mais les contrôles aux frontières sont renforcés. » Le gouvernement avait décidé de rétablir des contrôles aux frontières de la France pour quelques semaines, selon un dispositif entré en vigueur vendredi.

  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by mrsam on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:25AM

    by mrsam (5122) on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:25AM (#262902)

    That is, sadly, the inevitable outcome of EU's newly adopted open-borders policy. Honestly, who couldn't see this coming? Reports of small-scale riots of newly-settled "refugees" in small German towns have been coming across the news wire for the last week. I am only surprised that this kind of a terrorist attack was executed in France, rather than Germany which is accepting an overwhelming portion of these so-called "refugees".

    Just keep in mind that the current administration is working very hard to make it possible to have 100,000 of these "refugees" come over here, and settle in the fruited plain. And, you know what? I'd be shocked if they will now reconsider their plans. I fully expect the current administration to redouble their efforts to welcome these third-world savages with open arms. We have to demonstrate to the rest of the world how kind and compassionate we are, don't you understand?

    P.S. I wrote the above two paragraphs before searching the newswire again, and finding this report [investing.com]. I swear. Welcome to Obama's America.

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by pe1rxq on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:35AM

      by pe1rxq (844) on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:35AM (#262912) Homepage

      Stop blaming the refugees! It makes you sound just as stupid as shouting 'they took our jobs'. There is not a shred of evidence linking this to refugees. Only your scared imagination running wild.
      Post like yours are revolting. You are blaming them for the kind of violence they are actually running away from.

      • (Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:43AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:43AM (#262918)

        The longer you keep dreaming, the rougher the wake-up call will be. Over 100 people died today. All of these deaths could have been avoided if the borders had been closed. It's pretty difficult to kill someone when you can't even get into the same country as them.

        >inb4 "but if the borders were closed the poor wefyewjees would have died instead!!"
        Boo hoo.

        • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:06AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:06AM (#262946)

          People that conspire to kill more than 100 people would definitely not cross a border if they weren't supposed to, right?

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:53AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:53AM (#262972)

            Not if those borders were protected by armed forces. Dead men cross no borders.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:57AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:57AM (#262975)

              And people willing to strap bombs to themselves would be too worried to take the risk.

              • (Score: 2, Insightful) by tftp on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:17AM

                by tftp (806) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:17AM (#262983) Homepage

                And people willing to strap bombs to themselves would be too worried to take the risk.

                It's not very important what terrorists were or were not worried about if they are killed at the effectively guarded border. The point is that today a terrorist does not need to work hard to get into EU. In terms that are familiar to SN people, Europe switched off their firewall and allowed all kinds of packets through. Some (many?) of those packets are legitimate; but others are not. Voices are heard even today to reduce the security even further, as doing the opposite could be seen as undemocratic. Well, it's their country... and it's their democratic right to commit suicide as nations.

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:24AM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:24AM (#262986)

                  Some (many?) of those packets are legitimate; but others are not.

                  I thought that was a solved problem? [wikipedia.org]

                  Maybe we should just ask every immigrant if they're a terrorist or not.

                  • (Score: 1) by tftp on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:40AM

                    by tftp (806) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:40AM (#262994) Homepage

                    Maybe we should just ask every immigrant if they're a terrorist or not.

                    The USA does that even today. The primary purpose of that question is to have a simple legal path to removal of a terrorist, without spending years in courts.

                    Don't know, though, if the politically correct, liberal Europe has forced itself to ask such a personal question. Reportedly, the immigrants are dissolving within the EU as soon as they get inside. It would be pretty hard to match the person that crossed the border to the person who committed this or that; not that it would be of high importance after the fact.

                • (Score: 2) by gman003 on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:47AM

                  by gman003 (4155) on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:47AM (#262996)

                  Closing the borders WOULD NOT WORK.

                  First, consider just how large the border is. Even if you literally said "nobody can come into the EU from anywhere else", that's a massive border. How will you patrol it? Including the maritime borders, and the airspace? Sneaking twenty people into a building is easy, how are you going to protect a border like that? Remember, it doesn't take that many people to launch a terrorist attack.

                  Second, consider all the countries you would "want" to allow people from. Americans, Canadians, obviously they're not all terrorists, right, so some of those will need to be let in. Gotta let some Chinese in, obviously, to keep the trade running. We'll probably need to let some Russians in, too. But wait - Russia has massive, poorly-secured borders. What's to stop a terrorist from sneaking into there, building a new identity, then moving into Europe?

                  Third, consider who is already inside. Let's go ahead and (hypothetically) go full Nazi and ship every person of Arab ethnicity out. Hell, anyone brown. It's not like white people can ever be terrorists, right? No, I have no idea who Anders Breivik was, why do you ask? The IRA? Is that a beer?

                  And let's not even get started on how you'd need to block all communications, too... might have someone convert over the Internet...

                  • (Score: 1) by tftp on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:05AM

                    by tftp (806) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:05AM (#263006) Homepage

                    It's a valid question. But what is the answer?

                    I can comment that USSR maintained a heavily fortified border around most of the country for what, 80 years? Perhaps there are people still alive who can become advisers on such matters. Technicalities can always be taken care of. This will close access to those who have no valid travel documents, and who had not been properly vetted. This will not stop a dedicated, well prepared terrorist with perfectly made documents. But this will stop thousands who cannot afford the passports and who will never be given visas. In other words, this will stop the soldiers. Guess who did the carnage in Paris? Not the lone mastermind; it was done by his disposable soldiers. The mastermind may be in another country already.

                    Arrivals that go through proper border crossings (airports) are not a concern as much. They all have passports with visas, and they are not carrying anything dangerous in their backpacks. But if you have an open border... here is your channel of delivery of 10,000 AKMs from Libyan depots direct into the EU. If ten or fifteen suiciders did what they did last night, what can ten thousand do? ISIS has fourty thousand, they are currently fighting for Syrian sands - but they can be moved from there on a moment's notice if need be; Syria is hardly a rich prize.

                    • (Score: 3, Funny) by gman003 on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:43AM

                      by gman003 (4155) on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:43AM (#263027)

                      Arrivals that go through proper border crossings (airports) are not a concern as much. They all have passports with visas, and they are not carrying anything dangerous in their backpacks.

                      I can't believe it, it's finally happened. Everyone kept warning you not to, but you did.

                      You actually forgot 9/11.

                      • (Score: 2) by kurenai.tsubasa on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:28AM

                        by kurenai.tsubasa (5227) on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:28AM (#263049) Journal

                        Damn it. I blow my last mod point before seeing this one.

                        This is /thread, folks. Mod to +∞, hit the fucking nail on the fucking head.

                      • (Score: 1) by tftp on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:29AM

                        by tftp (806) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:29AM (#263050) Homepage

                        You actually forgot 9/11.

                        No. There was no defense against 9/11 at that time. There is a bit more today. Arrival of those Saudis into the USA was entirely legitimate, and nothing could have been done at that point to stop them. Even their activities on learning to fly were not illegal.

                        In their case, preventing them from coming would have caused more harm in form of self-isolation than it would have done good. The terrorists would simply wade across the river from Mexico. There is absolutely nothing that one can - or should - do to stop a young student or engineer if he is not known to be bad. The only advantage of restricting access to border crossings is in fact that it requires people with cleaner biography to get a visa. Those Saudis were not bums found in a back yard of a mosque. They were the best. There is always shortage of those. Among the 40,000 soldiers of ISIS in Syria you may find maybe a few who are of the same background and can be cleared to come to the USA.

                        • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:20PM

                          by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:20PM (#263194) Journal

                          "There was no defense against 9/11 at that time."

                          I strongly disagree. There were defenses, and we CHOSE not to defend ourselves.

                          "Even their activities on learning to fly were not illegal."

                          An activity need not be illegal to raise red flags. And, red flags were waved at the FBI, among other agencies tasked to track terrorists.

                          Worst of all, the United States had received intelligence that terrorists were thinking about flying airplanes into buildings. The "chatter" was out there, and we ignored it.

                          Bottom line, we were asleep at the wheel, and the Saudis took advantage of us.

                          --
                          On the plus side, I am completely immune to flash-bang grenades. - Helen Keller
                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:57AM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:57AM (#263003)

                  as doing the opposite could be seen as undemocratic

                  Obligatory trading freedom for security quote. I'd be glad if a small number of deaths is not enough to scare an entire population into giving up their liberty.

                  • (Score: 1) by tftp on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:10AM

                    by tftp (806) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:10AM (#263010) Homepage

                    I'd be glad if a small number of deaths is not enough to scare an entire population into giving up their liberty.

                    Usually sacrifices are acceptable if a certain group trades losses within the group for some freedoms that are afforded to the members of the group. Note, however, that in the case of refugees (if those are in any way involved,) citizens of the EU are trading deaths among themselves for freedom of other people to freely come into Europe. Would you like to be killed, so that person A can be free to migrate into country B - where you have no relation to A or B?

                    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:29AM

                      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:29AM (#263052)

                      If the people vote and decide to close their borders, then that is up to them. If they oppose their government doing this without their say, then I hope they succeed.

                      ~200 deaths is not something to ignore but there are over 66,000,000 people in France and the rights of all those people may be worth more than a couple hundred deaths.

                      • (Score: 1) by tftp on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:33AM

                        by tftp (806) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:33AM (#263054) Homepage

                        ~200 deaths is not something to ignore but there are over 66,000,000 people in France and the rights of all those people may be worth more than a couple hundred deaths.

                        I am still uncertain how the rights of French citizens can be impacted by closing the borders to unvetted foreigners. I know of one right - the right for life - that would even improve.

                        • (Score: 2) by Anal Pumpernickel on Saturday November 14 2015, @10:12PM

                          by Anal Pumpernickel (776) on Saturday November 14 2015, @10:12PM (#263476)

                          It's pretty obvious what the government's response to this will be, and don't pretend that it isn't. They will use this as an excuse to ramp up mass surveillance and destroy people's liberties even more.

      • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:49AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:49AM (#262927)

        A million refugees from war torn areas with a large majority of them being military age males.

        You were warned this would happen. No one listened to the warning.

        This is YOUR fault, and those of you who welcome potential terrorists with open arms. You stupid fucking idiots.

        Remember 0.1% of 1 million is a thousand, so even if only 0.1% are radicals (judging from demographic numbers coming from the countries in question this number is WAY higher) you let a thousand terrorists into your EU.

        This has nothing to do with "Dey took our jerbs" This has to do with not vetting the people you let into your country.

        • (Score: 3, Insightful) by gnuman on Saturday November 14 2015, @05:20AM

          by gnuman (5013) on Saturday November 14 2015, @05:20AM (#263078)

          Haven't you caught on that majority of the extremists are probably in Syria, and the refugees are fleeing because of these madman?

          Most of the terrorists in Europe are homegrown, born right in Europe (same for America and everywhere else). Wake up and smell reality - where do you think all the thousands of Europeans that went to fight for ISIL are?? They certainly are not refugees fleeing war torn countries - they are going TO Syria FROM Europe to learn and cause mayhem. Then they return back, for whatever reason, maybe to cause mayhem back home.

        • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:22PM

          by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:22PM (#263195) Journal
          --
          On the plus side, I am completely immune to flash-bang grenades. - Helen Keller
      • (Score: 2, Informative) by mrsam on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:53AM

        by mrsam (5122) on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:53AM (#262930)

        I am not scared. Just sad, watching all the sheep volunteering themselves for the slaughterhouse.

        Maybe you should volunteer and demonstrate how compassionate and big-hearted you are, and volunteer to house, and feed, two or three of these poor refugees in your home, to show the rest of the world that these are not uncivilised, murderous barbarians, but just innocent, pure as wind-driven snow victims of persecution in their homeland, just wanting a better life for themselves.

        • (Score: 3, Insightful) by pe1rxq on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:00AM

          by pe1rxq (844) on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:00AM (#262938) Homepage

          I am sure not all of them are pure and innocent. But neither is the current population....

        • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:01AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:01AM (#262939)

          > I am not scared.

          Fear has more than one dimension. You are demonstrating one of the most pernicious kinds of fear - the generalized application of negative stereotypes to people you've never met based on the simple fact that they are different from you.

        • (Score: 3, Insightful) by gman003 on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:05AM

          by gman003 (4155) on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:05AM (#262945)

          I'm struggling to understand what your actual argument is here.

          It's pretty clear that the majority of the refugees are, in fact, refugees. Perhaps not all are fleeing war, but even those fleeing poverty are simply looking for a better life. If even one percent were terrorist sympathizers, there would have been far more attacks by now. Individual refugees are about as dangerous as, say, the homeless beggars on the street. In any case, that has little bearing on terrorism. You can argue about the economics of it, certainly, but it has nothing to do with these attacks.

          Do you think only Arab Muslims are terrorists, perhaps? I can easily refute that. Remember Breivik, the Norway attacks four years back? Pure Aryan heritage, and a vicious, murderous monster. Or perhaps I should remind you of the IRA - or does being white make them "freedom fighters" instead of "terrorists" in your eyes?

          • (Score: 3, Insightful) by tangomargarine on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:18AM

            by tangomargarine (667) on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:18AM (#262955)

            If even one percent were terrorist sympathizers, there would have been far more attacks by now.

            Well considering it sounds like there were multiple simultaneous attacks, maybe they were waiting?

            9/11 on the scale it happened wouldn't have been possible if one cell had hijacked a single airliner before the main event.

            --
            "Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
            • (Score: 5, Insightful) by isostatic on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:48AM

              by isostatic (365) on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:48AM (#262970) Journal

              There's been about a million refugees into Europe this year.

              Assuming that these 6 attacks were perpetrated by say a total of 20 people who all entered Europe as refugees, that would leave 999,980 refugees who weren't involved

              If you want a coordinated attack why not do it en mass. Use 2000 terrorists willing to kill themselves and start 500 attacks across the west, from shootings at shopping malls to driving now a car into a crowd on the pavement.

              The answer of course is there aren't 2000 people willing to do it. There aren't 200. The number of people willing to deliberately go out and mirder innocent men women and children is tiny compared with those that do it accidentally in cars. We don't ban cars, we certainly don't ban drivers.

              • (Score: 1) by tftp on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:07AM

                by tftp (806) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:07AM (#262979) Homepage

                If you want a coordinated attack why not do it en mass.

                You are correct. Every general knows that you have to always attack, with all your forces, no matter what the circumstances are, until you have no soldiers left to fight tomorrow. </sarc>

                In this case, imagine that ISIS (or whoever stands behind - and there is someone, as the terror acts were organized) wants to terrorize the population. (Shocking, I know.) This is not achieved by one-time killing of many; one battle will be forgotten soon. But it can be achieved by killing of one citizen per day, as the losses will be fresh in people's memory.

                • (Score: 2) by isostatic on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:34AM

                  by isostatic (365) on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:34AM (#262989) Journal

                  So major attacks on the west

                  2001
                  2003
                  2005
                  2015

                  Wake me up when you have evidence that there will be a continual campaign like the us funded bombing attacks on British children from the 70s til 90s.

                  • (Score: 1) by tftp on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:51AM

                    by tftp (806) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:51AM (#263000) Homepage

                    Ok. Note, however, that ISIS only now got able to emplace a large number of their soldiers within the EU, by masquerading them as refugees. The attack in January was done by Chérif and Saïd Kouachi, French citizens born in Paris, not by infiltrators from Libya or Syria or wherever. It's yet unknown who exactly performed the attack on 11/13/2015, and whether the new arrivals have anything to do with it.

                    • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:27PM

                      by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:27PM (#263197) Journal

                      Disagree. There have been sporadic terror attacks over the past decade and more. More, there have been terror cells exposed throughout Europe in recent years. The terrorists have used European venues and resources to plan attacks around the world. Islamic terror groups are intertwined, of course. Former "Al Queda" groups have largely sworn allegiance to "ISIS" now. It isn't possible for you, me, or anyone to segregate one group's assets from another group's. The terrorists have infiltrated over a period of a couple decades, and they are taking action NOW, because France is involved in air raids in Iraq and Syria. Sleeper groups have been awakened.

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2iBZkODgxA [youtube.com]

                      --
                      On the plus side, I am completely immune to flash-bang grenades. - Helen Keller
                      • (Score: 2) by isostatic on Monday November 16 2015, @03:07AM

                        by isostatic (365) on Monday November 16 2015, @03:07AM (#263848) Journal

                        You imply some kind of command and control structure. I don't see that at all, and that's what makes fighting it so hard

                        • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Monday November 16 2015, @03:31AM

                          by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Monday November 16 2015, @03:31AM (#263853) Journal

                          Two things.

                          1. Somewhat like "sleeper cells" of the old Soviet days, a command structure isn't essential. Train highly motivated people, send them out into the world, and wait to see what they accomplish. You may additionally arrange for some signal to be sent openly, published in the personal ads, or on Facebook, or whatever.

                          2. Among the articles I've glanced at since I woke up this evening, was this: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/11/15/72-hours-before-paris-attacks-isis-linked-social-media-account-reveals-god-1219447939/?intcmp=trending [foxnews.com]

                          Regarding 2. - we have no idea how "hands on" the command structure was. Did the operatives merely communicate to the controllers that they had something planned, or did command plot the entire thing in detail? We may or may not learn more about that in days to come, but it is pretty certain that 8 or more random people didn't arrange this attack on the spur of the moment.

                          --
                          On the plus side, I am completely immune to flash-bang grenades. - Helen Keller
                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:56AM

                    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:56AM (#263002)

                    like the us funded bombing attacks on British children from the 70s til 90s.

                    Lol put down the pipe idjit.

                    • (Score: 3, Informative) by khallow on Saturday November 14 2015, @05:23AM

                      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @05:23AM (#263080) Journal

                      like the us funded bombing attacks on British children from the 70s til 90s.

                      Lol put down the pipe idjit.

                      No, this is a real thing [washingtonpost.com].

                      I am talking about the sympathy for the Irish Republican Army that persisted for decades in some Irish American communities and is only now fading away. Like British Muslim support for Muslim extremist terrorism, Irish American support for Irish terrorism came in many forms. There were Irish Americans who waved the Irish flag once a year on St. Patrick's Day and admired the IRA's cause but felt queasy about the methods. There were Irish Americans who collected money for Catholic charities in Northern Ireland without condoning the IRA at all. There were also Irish Americans who, while claiming to be "aiding the families of political prisoners," were in fact helping to arm IRA terrorists. Throughout the 1970s, until Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher asked President Ronald Reagan to stop them, they were the IRA's primary source of funding. And even after that they were widely tolerated.

                      I concede there is one major difference: The Irish terrorists were setting off their bombs across the ocean and not in New York or Boston, which somehow made the whole thing seem less real. But in Britain the explosions were real enough. In 1982 -- the year an IRA bomb killed eight people in Hyde Park -- four IRA men were arrested in New York after trying to buy surface-to-air missiles from an FBI agent. In 1984 -- the year the IRA tried to kill the whole British cabinet in Brighton -- an IRA plot to smuggle seven tons of explosives was foiled, an action that led to the arrests of several Americans. As recently as 1999, long after the IRA had declared its cease-fire, members of an IRA group connected to an American organization, the Irish Northern Aid Committee (Noraid), were arrested for gun-running in Florida.

                      The range of Americans who were unbothered by this sort of thing was surprisingly wide. Some were members of Congress, such as Republican Rep. Peter King of Long Island, who stayed with IRA supporters on visits to Northern Ireland and drank at a Belfast club called the Felons, whose members were all IRA ex-cons. Some were born in Ireland, such as Michael Flannery, Noraid's founder, who once said that "the more British soldiers sent home from Ulster in coffins, the better," and whose flattering obituary in 1995 described him as a man who "treated everyone he met with gentle respect." Some were Americans of Irish descent, such as Tom McBride, a businessman who is still the chairman of the Hartford chapter of Noraid, and who still refuses to condemn IRA terrorism. "I think they are protecting a segment of the population that needs to be protected," he told me over the phone.

                  • (Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:50AM

                    by Phoenix666 (552) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:50AM (#263031) Journal

                    I'm not clear on what you mean. Are you saying that ISIS (or whoever these terrorists are) are terrible because they've mounted four major attacks on the West since 20001 while the US has never funded any kind of terrible terror like that, or are you saying that ISIS is not that bad when you consider Irish Americans funded the IRA's bombing attacks on Britons for decades? Because they did.

                    --
                    Washington DC delenda est.
                    • (Score: 2) by Whoever on Saturday November 14 2015, @07:54PM

                      by Whoever (4524) on Saturday November 14 2015, @07:54PM (#263424) Journal

                      Don't forget that the US refused to extradite IRA terrorists to the UK.

                    • (Score: 2) by isostatic on Sunday November 15 2015, @02:12AM

                      by isostatic (365) on Sunday November 15 2015, @02:12AM (#263534) Journal

                      Well when U.S. funded terrorists blew up my tiny home town in 1993, when the blew up the neighbouring city in 1996, it certainly was terrible. The IRA commited 131 terrorist incidents in in mainland britian in the first half of the 90s -- thats about 2 per month - that's a sustained attack. Not half a dozen in a decade.

                      As at least one of the 7 attackers on Friday were French, I'm not sure what you're going to do, ban the French from visiting Paris?

                      Now it's entirely possible that the attacks (which didn't need the refugee crisis to occur) were timed to stir up racial hatred, and attempt to persuade the world there's a "Muslim vs everyone else" war on, when there isn't, any more than there was an Ireland vs Britain war in the 80s and 90s.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @07:19PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @07:19PM (#263396)

                Do you lock your doors at night? Very few people are criminals. Why stop them all from entering when so many are innocent?

                The same wisdom should be applied to your country. Some bad people get in and hundreds die. It does not matter if 99.99% of the people you let in are innocent, you are facilitating mass murder by letting that last .01% in.

                • (Score: 2) by Anal Pumpernickel on Saturday November 14 2015, @10:05PM

                  by Anal Pumpernickel (776) on Saturday November 14 2015, @10:05PM (#263474)

                  Do you lock your doors at night?

                  Locking my door is a personal decision that affects myself and no one else.

                  It does not matter if 99.99% of the people you let in are innocent, you are facilitating mass murder by letting that last .01% in.

                  So be it. What you speak of now is national policy, which has a definite effect on countless people. What you seem to be advocating is collective punishment, which any truly free society should reject.

                  It is amazing how easy it to bring people to the government's side. The suckers will just beg for more safety and gladly surrender their liberties whenever there is some threat or an attack of some sort. That shows how much freedom means to them.

          • (Score: 3, Interesting) by mrsam on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:26AM

            by mrsam (5122) on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:26AM (#262959)

            You will find anti-social, violent predators in every corner of society. But you will be hard-pressed to find any other unified front whose official scriptures prescribe death for apostasy, and heaven for martyrs who kill "infidels", or who even come close to the record of blood shed by violent Islamic terrorists.

            But my point, is to point out the utter, abject denial of reality, forced upon by political correctness, that results in full-blown, ignorant, head-in-a-pile-of-sand refusal to call a spade, a spade. Intentional, willful refusal to recognize the murderous, barbarian nature of all those prophets of the religion of peace.

            • (Score: 1, Offtopic) by gman003 on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:49AM

              by gman003 (4155) on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:49AM (#262971)

              If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known,
              gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other),
              do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them.
              You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people.
              Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
              Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again.

              Deuteronomy 13:6-11 [biblegateway.com], canon in Judaism and many forms of Christianity, assuming this is classed as "moral law" and not "ceremonial law".

              I suppose you were correct in that I was hard-pressed to find this evidence, because I am not intimately familiar with any of the major religious checks. But it still wasn't too hard to find.

              Oh, and "unified front"? Radical Muslims spend most of their time killing each other for not being the right flavor of Muslim. ISIS counts among their enemies all members of Shia Islam, whom they execute when found.

              • (Score: 2) by kurenai.tsubasa on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:55AM

                by kurenai.tsubasa (5227) on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:55AM (#263033) Journal

                My favorite translation can differ in interesting ways, even from NIV (and certainly from KJV), but not in this case.

                Deuteronomy 13:6–11 (MSG):

                And when your brother or son or daughter, or even your dear wife or lifelong friend, comes to you in secret and whispers, “Let’s go and worship some other gods” (gods that you know nothing about, neither you nor your ancestors, the gods of the peoples around you near and far, from one end of the Earth to the other), don’t go along with him; shut your ears. Don’t feel sorry for him and don’t make excuses for him. Kill him. That’s right, kill him. You throw the first stone. Take action at once and swiftly with everybody in the community getting in on it at the end. Stone him with stones so that he dies. He tried to turn you traitor against God, your God, the one who got you out of Egypt and the world of slavery.

                Every man, woman, and child in Israel will hear what’s been done and be in awe. No one will dare to do an evil thing like this again.

                I included the part about throwing the first stone because I find it highly contradictory to Jesus' Message (and the Buddah's Message).

                All of the Abrahamaic religions have this built in. That includes Baptists, Catholics, Southern Christian Identity, Reformed, Mormonism, etc. Wasn't it Saint Augustine [wikipedia.org] who advised against literal interpretations?

                Exodus 20:1–6 (MSG):

                God spoke all these words:

                I am God, your God,
                        who brought you out of the land of Egypt,
                        out of a life of slavery.

                No other gods, only me.

                No carved gods of any size, shape, or form of anything whatever, whether of things that fly or walk or swim. Don’t bow down to them and don’t serve them because I am God, your God, and I’m a most jealous God, punishing the children for any sins their parents pass on to them to the third, and yes, even to the fourth generation of those who hate me. But I’m unswervingly loyal to the thousands who love me and keep my commandments.

                Seems like a terrible and unjust god to me (certainly not a rex tremende majestatis, unless the “awful” part of most translations is the salient part), one who endorses genital mutilation, but hey.

                Observe how, through, how this comes out after 2,500 years of history. Most of the denominations of Christianity I mentioned overlook this part, just the same as they overlook the prohibition against bacon(++).

                But hey, maybe it was just a proscription against worshiping those Goa'uld bastards [wikia.com]. If that's the case, everybody should chillax, especially the jihadists, because SGC has everything under control!

          • (Score: 4, Troll) by Runaway1956 on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:01AM

            by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:01AM (#263004) Journal

            As long as the Muslim population remains around 1% of any given country they will be regarded as a peace-loving minority and not as a threat to anyone. In fact, they may be featured in articles and films, stereotyped for their colorful uniqueness:

            United States — Muslim 1.0%
            Australia — Muslim 1.5%
            Canada — Muslim 1.9%
            China — Muslim 1%-2%
            Italy — Muslim 1.5%
            Norway — Muslim 1.8%

            At 2% and 3% they begin to proselytize from other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs:

            Denmark — Muslim 2%
            Germany — Muslim 3.7%
            United Kingdom — Muslim 2.7%
            Spain — Muslim 4%
            Thailand — Muslim 4.6%

            From 5% on they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population.

            They will push for the introduction of halal (clean by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature it on their shelves — along with threats for failure to comply. (United States ).

            France — Muslim 8%
            Philippines — Muslim 5%
            Sweden — Muslim 5%
            Switzerland — Muslim 4.3%
            The Netherlands — Muslim 5.5%
            Trinidad &Tobago — Muslim 5.8%

            At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves under Sharia, the Islamic Law. The ultimate goal of Islam is not to convert the world but to establish Sharia law over the entire world.

            When Muslims reach 10% of the population, they will increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions ( Paris –car-burnings) . Any non-Muslim action that offends Islam will result in uprisings and threats ( Amsterdam – Mohammed cartoons).

            Guyana — Muslim 10%
            India — Muslim 13.4%
            Israel — Muslim 16%
            Kenya — Muslim 10%
            Russia — Muslim 10-15%

            After reaching 20% expect hair-trigger rioting, jihad militia formations, sporadic killings and church and synagogue burning:

            Ethiopia — Muslim 32.8%

            At 40% you will find widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks and ongoing militia warfare:

            Bosnia — Muslim 40%
            Chad — Muslim 53.1%
            Lebanon — Muslim 59.7%

            From 60% you may expect unfettered persecution of non-believers and other religions, sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia Law as a weapon and Jizya, the tax placed on infidels:

            Albania — Muslim 70%
            Malaysia — Muslim 60.4%
            Qatar — Muslim 77.5%
            Sudan — Muslim 70%

            After 80% expect State run ethnic cleansing and genocide:

            Bangladesh — Muslim 83%
            Egypt — Muslim 90%
            Gaza — Muslim 98.7%
            Indonesia — Muslim 86.1%
            Iran — Muslim 98%
            Iraq — Muslim 97%
            Jordan — Muslim 92%
            Morocco — Muslim 98.7%
            Pakistan — Muslim 97%
            Palestine — Muslim 99%
            Syria — Muslim 90%
            Tajikistan — Muslim 90%
            Turkey — Muslim 99.8%
            United Arab Emirates — Muslim 96%

            100% will usher in the peace of ‘Dar-es-Salaam’ — the Islamic House of Peace — there’s supposed to be peace because everybody is a Muslim:

            Afghanistan — Muslim 100%
            Saudi Arabia — Muslim 100%
            Somalia — Muslim 100%
            Yemen — Muslim 99.9%

            --
            On the plus side, I am completely immune to flash-bang grenades. - Helen Keller
            • (Score: 4, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @05:41AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @05:41AM (#263088)

              The internet chain letter you cut-n-pasted that from is so well known as bullshit that snopes took it apart:

              http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?t=34302 [snopes.com]

              I'll summarize the very first criticism from snopes:

              > At 40% you will find widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks and ongoing militia warfare:
              > Bosnia — Muslim 40%

              Blaming the genocide of bosnian muslims [wikipedia.org] on themselves for being muslim is the height of intellectual dishonesty. Everything else claimed or implied in your unthinking regurgitation of evil is on the same level of quality.

              Fuck you runaway you fucking hitler wannabe. I had just started think that maybe you were a decent person, too bad you had to remind us all that you really do have a heart of darkness.

              • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday November 14 2015, @09:53AM

                by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @09:53AM (#263150) Journal

                I do have a heart. Those of you without hearts just repeat the mindless drivel fed to you by the MSM.

                --
                On the plus side, I am completely immune to flash-bang grenades. - Helen Keller
                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:47PM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:47PM (#263286)

                  > I do have a heart. Those of you without hearts just repeat the mindless drivel fed to you by the MSM.

                  Yes, dear runaway, you go ahead and retreat into non sequitur. So comforting. Nice. Warm. Fuzzy.

                  Never mind that you just posted a cut-n-paste internet chain letter lifted from a book published by one of the largest 'christian' media groups in the country.

                  Don't think too deeply about any of that - your mindless drivel is of much higher quality. You have nothing to be ashamed of. No illogic at all. Just purity and wisdom. Something that only your tribe has because your tribe is the best tribe.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @10:35AM

                by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @10:35AM (#263162)

                You are intellectually dishonest. Besides that one thing most of the other comments while deriding the post, due nothing to refute the post.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @07:27PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @07:27PM (#263407)

                Muslims do commit genocide on other Muslims. Shiite and Sunni have been doing that for a very long time.

                Fuck you for your apologist stance. You are the same sort of person that did claim in 1940 that not all germans are bad so we should not go to war against them.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @06:01AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @06:01AM (#263091)

              Look! Runaway can do math! I am so impressed. Of course, the problem is that correlation is not causation. Go hide in your Bunker, Runaway.

      • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:56AM

        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:56AM (#263001) Journal

        Refugee, immigrant, invader, doesn't matter what words you and I use to describe them. They are all middle eastern Muslims. Allahu akhbar, dude.

        --
        On the plus side, I am completely immune to flash-bang grenades. - Helen Keller
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:44AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:44AM (#263029)

        It was christians that fled religious prosecution that came to the US and brought it with them (Salem witch trials et al.), these people flee from Islam and bring it with them.

      • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:15PM

        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:15PM (#263193) Journal

        They brought the violence with them.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2iBZkODgxA [youtube.com]

        --
        On the plus side, I am completely immune to flash-bang grenades. - Helen Keller
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @09:11PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @09:11PM (#263455)

        Stop blaming the refugees! It makes you sound just as stupid as shouting 'they took our jobs'. There is not a shred of evidence linking this to refugees. Only your scared imagination running wild.

        Imagine... [reuters.com]

        • (Score: 2) by pe1rxq on Saturday November 14 2015, @11:16PM

          by pe1rxq (844) on Saturday November 14 2015, @11:16PM (#263491) Homepage

          Ok, I'll admit that is a shred of evidence.
          But at the time I wrote that comment that fact was not known yet and the guy I was replying to was talking out of his ass.
          By now some of the other attackers have been identified and turned out to be domestic.
          So blaming a million other refugees for this is still stupid.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 15 2015, @05:01PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 15 2015, @05:01PM (#263683)

        I completely agree, why is everyone blaming Syrian refugees? That is exactly what ISIS would want. Who the hell is going to be in their Califate if all of their downtrodden people can just get up and flee to Europe. I would not be surprised if their primary goal was to stem the flow of people they want to rule from coming to Europe.

    • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Ethanol-fueled on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:37AM

      by Ethanol-fueled (2792) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:37AM (#262914) Homepage

      Perhaps Western nations should quit dickin' around over in the Middle-East, then.

      This is blowback more than it is an invasion. Of course, having stricter border controls would most certainly help. Nationalist parties were already on the rise before this happened.

      • (Score: 3, Informative) by tftp on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:49AM

        by tftp (806) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:49AM (#262928) Homepage

        This is blowback more than it is an invasion.

        It's hard to tell, as the history of Muslim conquests of Europe is extensive enough.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:20AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:20AM (#262985)

        But we need to spread Democracy®! Democracy® is the best thing since sliced bread and that's why we need to force it down the throat of every country that doesn't have Democracy®!

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @08:01AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @08:01AM (#263124)

          Registered Tirade Mark

    • (Score: 2) by gman003 on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:55AM

      by gman003 (4155) on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:55AM (#262934)

      What makes you think the terrorists snuck in as refugees? If I were a terrorist right now, I'd fly to a "civilized" country before continuing on to my target on a tourist or student visa - I imagine most of the intelligence services are overwhelmed trying to screen the tens of thousands of refugees, but you'd have a lot less privacy and ability to smuggle equipment as a faux-refugee.

    • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:40AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:40AM (#262993)

      Are people still following Trump and the other GOP candidates telling us that Mexican immigrants are the problem?

      Latin American countries are Roman Catholic, speak a European language, and baseball is very popular. It's our back yard. The USA should be admitting MORE Latin immigrants, not less. For economic and national security reasons.

      And yes, this is directly relevant to the Paris story.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @07:20PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @07:20PM (#263399)

        It's the open border that's the problem, it's not just Mexicans coming across the border. Mexico is a problem because they don't give a rats ass who travels up and into the U.S. from anywhere. Close the Mexican/US border and the country will at least have a fighting chance against terrorism, leave it the way it is and we're fucked. It's probably already too late, they're probably here already. All you bleeding heart limp wristed politically correct dorks are the reason we're screwed.

    • (Score: 2) by Zz9zZ on Saturday November 14 2015, @09:34AM

      by Zz9zZ (1348) on Saturday November 14 2015, @09:34AM (#263141)

      So we should be cynical scrooge-like people just because there is a chance some people will screw us over? How about history? Do you realize that the Western nations have interfered with foreign politics, promoted the murder of hundreds of thousands of people, arming groups for political gain, destabilizing legitimate governments for economic gains?

      We are reaping what we have sown, and the PROPER response would be to show some responsibility. However it is STILL more profitable to further destroy these foreign countries and then try to appear magnanimous by "fixing" the infrastructure we blew up.... At the tax payer's expense.

      It blows my mind how conservatives (I presume as much by your "Obama's america" statement) can be so blind. So easily distracted from reality.

      PS: I do not like Obama, he has proven himself another corrupt politician who sells his ideals for political gain.

      This video sums up my reaction to the reality of our world (I'm Ted for this example) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfbUkRvcNiI [youtube.com]

      --
      ~Tilting at windmills~
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @10:49AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @10:49AM (#263166)

        Maybe we could spend the money helping them fix their own fucking country instead of taking the chance they wont fuck up ours.

    • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:14PM

      by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:14PM (#263192) Journal
      --
      On the plus side, I am completely immune to flash-bang grenades. - Helen Keller
    • (Score: 2) by Reziac on Sunday November 15 2015, @04:10AM

      by Reziac (2489) on Sunday November 15 2015, @04:10AM (#263556) Homepage
  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:34AM

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:34AM (#262911)

    Isn't this the sort to be tagged Breaking News?

  • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:38AM

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:38AM (#262916)

    Turn the entire mid east sands into glass.

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:48AM

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:48AM (#262925)

    Can anyone summarize what happened (is this still ongoing, did some group claim responsibility, are the aggressors dead/captured, etc)?

    • (Score: 3, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:53AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:53AM (#262931)

      Four separate attacks around Paris. Most dead were at a concert where terrorists threw bombs into the crowd and shooting more... http://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-34815972 [bbc.com]

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:59AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:59AM (#262937)

        From that I gather this is ongoing. The military and police are now hunting and we can't expect to learn more until that is over.

        • (Score: 3, Informative) by inertnet on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:50AM

          by inertnet (4071) on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:50AM (#262999)

          The attacks appear to be over. French media have been holding back on live news because during the Charlie Hebdo attacks lives of hostages were in danger because attackers were following live news. But more news is coming out now that it's over. At least 120 people have been killed and dozens are in hospitals in very serious condition. Three terrorists in the theater blew themselves up during the final police raid. Unconfirmed report that four police officers died during the raid. Borders are closed and state of emergency declared, so the military is called in to help. Areas around the sites in the middle of Paris have been sealed off and are being searched for attackers or helpers that may have escaped. It's 3:50AM, we'll learn more later this morning. I read somewhere that more attacks on other cities have been announced. Fighting them won't be easy because the enemy is hiding among us.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:36AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:36AM (#262965)

        Who modded this funny? You are a sick puppy.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:09AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:09AM (#262980)

          Misclick most likely. Someone will correct it eventually.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:10AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:10AM (#262948)
      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by tangomargarine on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:21AM

        by tangomargarine (667) on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:21AM (#262956)

        A Wikipedia article on events that are still underway? Please.

        I imagine we need to wait 2 or 3 days until wildly inaccurate reports calm down and we find out what the hell is going on.

        --
        "Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:26AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:26AM (#262960)

          All reports will be crap or, at least, indistinguishable from crap for a while. This includes the Wikipedia article but it is a compilation of multiple sources, constantly getting updated, and better organized than all the breaking news pages I've seen.

    • (Score: 2) by fritsd on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:52PM

      by fritsd (4586) on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:52PM (#263247) Journal

      try lemonde.fr for actualities, it's in French though

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:54AM

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:54AM (#262933)

    the print view says "from the dept."

  • (Score: 2, Funny) by Skwearl on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:14AM

    by Skwearl (4314) on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:14AM (#262952)

    We need to ask our intelligence agencies which group these people belong to. Round them up and shoot them. If they come from a nation state actor, I believe now would be a good time to remind the world of the power of nuclear weapons, and a city should be glassed.

    Any other response is a sign of weakness.

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:32AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:32AM (#262962)

      Given the money and resources our intelligence agencies are spending on spying on everyone, the first question should be "why didn't you know about this attack?"

      • (Score: 1) by tftp on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:56AM

        by tftp (806) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:56AM (#262974) Homepage

        It would be nearly impossible to do if the lone organizer, or a few, did all the planning ahead of time, and issued instructions to the soldiers just before the attack. Islamists are fully aware of the spying, and they have learned years ago how to stay under the radar. It's not rocket science - it's actually going back to basics: meeting in person in crowded public places, transferring small notes from hand to hand, and other such craft that many associate only with spies. Person to person communication is very hard to intercept; it is even hard to detect.

        So what would the NSA hear in their intercepts? I would guess, nothing of importance. They wouldn't even know when they accidentally stumbled upon some nefarious conversation, as speaking in code *and* in a foreign language is not conducive to clear understanding. For example, verses from a Holy Book belong to numbered chapters. Concatenated, those numbers can produce date and time and code of the location. How on Earth would anyone figure it out if the speaker simply talks about subject of those chapters, freely interleaving it with meaningless chaff? Verbal steganography is not weaker than the one that is recorded.

        • (Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:00AM

          by Phoenix666 (552) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:00AM (#263036) Journal

          That's fine, but the question remains. If the NSA and CIA purport to stop this very kind of thing with all their incredible disregard for our Constitutional Rights and the Rule of Law they demonstrate with their total surveillance, then they fail to stop this very sort of thing, then what good are they? What it proves is that they have shredded the bedrock of American law for nothing. They took all our freedom away and provided no security.

          These terrorists in France are despicable, and I am tempted to nuke everything ISIS controls into glass, but frankly I am not worried about the threat they constitute to my safety or freedom. I am very worried about the threat that the American police state poses to my every waking moment and those of everyone in my family.

          --
          Washington DC delenda est.
          • (Score: 2) by Anal Pumpernickel on Saturday November 14 2015, @11:36AM

            by Anal Pumpernickel (776) on Saturday November 14 2015, @11:36AM (#263183)

            If the NSA and CIA purport to stop this very kind of thing with all their incredible disregard for our Constitutional Rights and the Rule of Law they demonstrate with their total surveillance, then they fail to stop this very sort of thing, then what good are they?

            Even if they did provide security, our fundamental liberties and constitution are more important. I would rather live in a country that is more free but less safe and less stable than some authoritarian country.

            • (Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:27PM

              by Phoenix666 (552) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:27PM (#263196) Journal

              Me too, but stuff like this rather destroys their main justification, doesn't it? Everytime people like us object to what they're doing, they claim it's keeping us safe. Paris proves unequivocally that's bullshit.

              --
              Washington DC delenda est.
              • (Score: 2) by Whoever on Saturday November 14 2015, @07:49PM

                by Whoever (4524) on Saturday November 14 2015, @07:49PM (#263422) Journal

                Everytime people like us object to what they're doing, they claim it's keeping us safe. Paris proves unequivocally that's bullshit.

                If only things were so simple. Yes, to rational people who have been following the issues, this is clear evidence of the failure of mass surveillance and other erosion of individual rights. However, many people don't think things through, they don't realize that continuing to do what already failed will again not work the next time (just like it did not work with the Charlie Hebdo attack).

                The security services will continue to claim that they prevented several other plots, with absolutely no proof of this (because "security").

                In fact, there is a strong incentive on the security services to allow a small plot to go ahead (Charlie Hebdo, perhaps) now and again, just to keep the population from questioning their purpose.

        • (Score: 2) by kurenai.tsubasa on Saturday November 14 2015, @05:20AM

          by kurenai.tsubasa (5227) on Saturday November 14 2015, @05:20AM (#263076) Journal

          I'm with Phoenix here. What is the fucking point in the complete internet dragnet if it can be so easily defeated? What is the fucking point in backdooring or outlawing (otherwise effective) crypto? Shut down the NSA, shut down the Department of [Fatherland] Security, and greatly restrict the powers of the CIA. They are clearly ineffectual against these methods.

          Either that or they are complicit. Look for news in the next few days about reactions from Clinton and Jeb. Look for news discrediting Bernie Sanders, that his policies would lead to more of this. Look for the FEAR! AAAaaaaaa! FEAR! (Expect some insane posturing from Trump, but well, he's Trump. We love him like we love Ethanol, sorry to razz you buddy. Trump might be crazy, but at least he's our crazy.)

          No, I'm not just drawing on Star Citizen fandom, as two of my previous posts would suggest. I'm merely illustrating a parallel, a parallel that's played out throughout human history to the point of being a plot device in a game I'm looking forward to. That's the point I'm trying to make. The Powers That Be, the Masters of the Universe, whatever you want to call them, have never been above sacrificing the blood of the innocent to further their goals.

          I never wish to disrespect the dead. I sing Xena's funeral dirge for them and shed some tears. These tears burn, however, because I know there is a reason this attack happened or at least was allowed to happen, and I know what this means for the Coronation of Clinton and TPP, TTIP, and TISA. I also shed tears knowing how easily the public, the European public, the American public, will trade liberty for the promise, a promise they can never deliver upon because this is not a safe world, of security.

          To paraphrase a post I modded up, with regards to fear of refugees and the calls for closing borders:

          You've fucking done it. They told you not to, but you fucking did it anyway.

          You forgot 9/11.

          • (Score: 2) by fritsd on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:18PM

            by fritsd (4586) on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:18PM (#263222) Journal

            Bob Altemeyer, the Authoritarians, page 56:

            Thus it turns out in experiments that a person's fear of a dangerous world
            predicts various kinds of authoritarian aggression better than any other unpleasant
            feeling I have looked at. As my mentor, Brewster Smith of the University of
            California at Santa Cruz, said when I told him that fear set off authoritarian aggression
            more than anything else, "We do have to fear fear itself." And of course fear rose in
            the United States after 9/11. As Dave Barry put it in a column in November 2004,
            "Attorney General John Ashcroft has issued one of those vague, yet at the same time,
            unhelpful federal terrorism warnings that boil down to: "Be afraid! Be very afraid!""

                          Events like the attacks of 9/11 can drive large parts of a population to being as
            frightened as authoritarian followers are day after day. In calm, peaceful times as well
            as in genuinely dangerous ones, high RWAs feel threatened. They have agreed on the
            RWA scale, year after year since the 1970s, that sinfulness has brought us to the point
            of ruin. There's always a national crisis looming ahead. All times are troubled times
            that require drastic action.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:40AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:40AM (#262966)

      I already said that but got "troll". There's a glass shortage, might as well do it the easy way and solve two problems at one time.

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Beryllium Sphere (r) on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:45AM

      by Beryllium Sphere (r) (5062) on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:45AM (#262968)

      Restraint is strength, proportion is wisdom, and people who think it "weakness" not to incinerate millions of innocents -- well, never send a boy out to do a man's job.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:02AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:02AM (#262976)

      FALSE FLAG!

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:28PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:28PM (#263232)

      I have inside information that the attackers were from some kind of company in Redmond, USA.

      Do your worst, Skwearl!11one!

  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:17AM

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:17AM (#262954)

    How could this happen with all the massive amounts of domestic spying [theguardian.com] in france? Especially since they ratcheted it up even higher [theintercept.com] last june?

    • (Score: 0, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:35AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:35AM (#262964)

      How could this happen with all the massive amounts of domestic spying in france?

      I dunno about France but the rumor is in the US they have a policy of preferentially hiring Muslim Brothers as translators so a large volume of intercepts get marked as not suspect and the managers get bonuses for increasing "efficiency" and promoted for having such good relations with the Muslim community. They're not allowed to hire Jews or Christians as translators because the Muslims would walk out. And they're not allowed to question the loyalty of these Muslims or the quality of their work because that would be culturally insensitive.

      • (Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:29AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:29AM (#263051)

        Jesus christ where do you fools come up with that shit?

        They are short-handed on arabic translators because they disqualify people for the tiniest reasons. [nytimes.com] And you think they are hiring the muslim brotherhood. Fucking racists fucktards all of you.

    • (Score: 2) by Zz9zZ on Saturday November 14 2015, @09:37AM

      by Zz9zZ (1348) on Saturday November 14 2015, @09:37AM (#263142)

      Easily? Normally I'd add in a "lol" but this situation is fucked... Surveillance generally only covers the people who aren't worried about said surveillance. Anyone plotting something bad will know not to use standard communications.

      Yet another nail in the coffin for mass surveillance. Can't stop a mass coordinated attack? Then stop spying on everyone. Good old police work is the answer, not magical algorithms that make it easy to oppress people.

      --
      ~Tilting at windmills~
      • (Score: 2) by Anal Pumpernickel on Saturday November 14 2015, @11:39AM

        by Anal Pumpernickel (776) on Saturday November 14 2015, @11:39AM (#263184)

        Surveillance generally only covers the people who aren't worried about said surveillance.

        As well as countless people who fare worried. The people who aren't worried definitely should be; right now, they're just filthy authoritarian cowards.

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:47AM

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:47AM (#262969)

    It's going to take some pathetic contortionist to bend this around to make an anti-US comment. It's got to be driving you all absolutely crazy.

    Quick! Queue up some sort of NSA-related story, STAT! I don't care if it's a dupe - go! go! go!

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by shortscreen on Saturday November 14 2015, @06:25AM

      by shortscreen (2252) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @06:25AM (#263096) Journal

      This is way too easy. Where do I begin? Well, let's see... what we have here is violence caused by Islamic extremists. It's generally agreed in the West that violent religious extremism is a bad thing. But there is one country, masters of hypocracy that they are, whose actions never match up with their words when it comes to dealing with this problem.

      The US had no problem arming and training the Mujahideen to annoy (ie. wage war against) Russia.

      The US had no problem helping the Islamic extremists in Chechnya cause more trouble for Russia. In fact, both the Boston Marathon bombers and one of the 9/11 hijackers who the FBI had been warned about, had connections to Chechen extremist groups. There has been speculation that the reason US intelligence did not act on these warnings was because of a policy of not giving a shit about Chechen terrorists. ("They're Russia's problem!")

      The US had no problem selling chemical weapons to Saddam Hussein to be used in the Iran-Iraq war. Of course, when Saddam's antics no longer amused them, they bombed the place. And then later, invaded and destroyed the country, justified by nothing but lies.

      The US had no problem helping Muslim rebel groups overthrow the government in Libya to get rid of a guy they didn't like.

      The US had no problem committing assasinations and acts of sabotage against Iran, while wagging their finger at Iran for "sponsoring terror."

      The US had no problem shipping people off to be tortured at "black sites" or Guantanamo Bay.

      The US claims that Saudi Arabia, the theocracy, human rights abuser, and state sponsor of terror, is their "ally." The US sells them billions of dollars worth of weapons, which they are currently using to murder people in Yemen.

      And here comes the good part! The US exploited political unrest in Syria caused by a drought to foment rebellion by training and arming Islamic extremists who wanted to replace Assad's secular government with a theocracy like the one in Saudi Arabia. Then ISIS appears on the scene with a bunch of US weapons captured from Iraq, committing all sorts of atrocities. The US claims they only support "moderate" rebel groups, and keeps sending weapons. The war continues, and millions of refugees leave the country. And this is where we are today.

      • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @05:58PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @05:58PM (#263360)

        > Then ISIS appears on the scene with a bunch of US weapons captured from Iraq, committing all sorts of atrocities.

        You left out that ISIS was created when the US disbanded the Iraqi military so that there was mass unemployment and discontent among people with lots of military training and then put many of them in the same damn prisons they put captured al qaeda. They found common cause in opposing the new Iraqi government which deliberately went out of its way to exclude them from the political system.

  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:35AM

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:35AM (#262991)

    I am really disapointed by all the shitty comments; I did not expect this much stupidity here. Now that I know that most of my friends and family are safe, I can just remind some people of simple facts.

    You don't know who did this. Last january, all killers were french, born in France. They were petty criminals from poor neighborhoods around Paris who turned islamists in french jails and in extremist circles in french.

    People who flee ISIS/Al quaeda/Boko Haram in Syria and other countries are as much victims as people from Paris. There might be terrorists using refugees' crisis to get in the country, but it's not the refugees bringing in weapons, planning which part of Paris to attack...
    Anyway, this shows once more that spying the whole country is completely useless if a dozen terrorist could get together, find weapons, organize and plan such an attack without any action from the multiple

    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by goodie on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:48AM

      by goodie (1877) on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:48AM (#263030) Journal

      This. For a bunch of people who claim to have well informed opinions, not watching Fox News etc. i see a lot of ignorance here. I am willing to bet my money on those people having nothing to do with refugees and i stead bein 2nd or 3rd generation French citizens much like the other attacks. And yes I grew up in France and still go there regularly. The main issue over there in terms of radicalization is not new immigrants. It is the new generation of already established immigrants. The reasons why they turn to such horrible actions is another complex topic. But please do not jump to a simple conclusion just because it is easy.

      • (Score: 2, Troll) by cubancigar11 on Saturday November 14 2015, @06:39AM

        by cubancigar11 (330) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @06:39AM (#263101) Homepage Journal

        I have personally seen the kind of racism that exists among most French people. They aren't ready for immigrants at all. But since France has an impending economical catastrophe due to low population growth and exorbitant social security system, govt. just needs immigrants to keep it all together. French people are one of the most overtly intolerant people in western Europe - and not just to people with darker skin. France needs to ban immigration and let normal people realize the aforementioned need before trying to save itself. Sure, it will result in a Greece like situation but at least there will be less carnage.

        Or maybe carnage is better than Greece like situation. France is one of the biggest exporters of military hardware. War!!!

      • (Score: 2) by fritsd on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:54PM

        by fritsd (4586) on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:54PM (#263290) Journal

        So, you're saying it's some kind of meta-terrorism problem?

        (1) Leaders pick poisonous mullahs with "the gift of the word" but without criminal or violent history
        (2) Send them to target host country to proselytise
        (3) P.M. assembles a crowd of disgruntled and gullible 17-year-old "authoritarian follower" kids *with a host country passport, looks, and behaviour*
        (4) P.M. molds their mind for years with his friday tirades
        (5) P.M. weeds out the ones who have drawn the attention of the authorities, the ones that are too stupid, and the ones that might disobey orders
        (6) P.M. waits for orders from higher up the hierarchy
        (7) ???
        (8) Boom!

        That would explain why Britain and Norway wanted to get rid of Captain Hook [wikipedia.org] and Mullah Krekar, respectively. Those used "freedom of expression" and "freedom of religion" as a shield in order to ultimately get rid of that freedom of expression and religion.

        Who can protect us from poisonous imams?

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @10:58PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @10:58PM (#263489)

          > Who can protect us from poisonous imams?

          Stop the ghettoization of immigrants. When society just keeps excluding you, you start feeling like an outsider. First gen immigrants came to france because they wanted to be a part of the country - they knew they were different so worked hard to become more french but expected that they would always be somewhat different. 2nd generation are born in france, speak french like a native, swim in french culture and yet still they are treated as outsiders. So they look for people who will accept them and the "poisonous imams" are right there to fill the social void. Just like gangs are there for the ghettos in America.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:41AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:41AM (#263058)

      Thank you for this ray of hope your comment brought to me. As a French I am destroyed seeing so much hate, ad nominen finger pointing and victim blaming when the only right thing to do should be using compassion toward the everyone affected. Let's wait for the anarchy to settle, the justice to do its work and make informed decisions after.
      I still have to hear about some family members and former colleagues.
      My thoughts are going to everyone affected tonight, their loves ones and friends.
      [AC as I don't want any karma on such comment]

    • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:35PM

      by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:35PM (#263202) Journal

      Define "French" and "born in France" please.

      I will argue that a second or third generation immigrant who grew up in Little Mecca is not French at all.

      --
      On the plus side, I am completely immune to flash-bang grenades. - Helen Keller
      • (Score: 2) by goodie on Saturday November 14 2015, @07:11PM

        by goodie (1877) on Saturday November 14 2015, @07:11PM (#263392) Journal

        Not sure what you mean by Little Mecca. My take on this, for having lived in Parisian suburbs until I was 15 or so (and going back there everytime I go back to visit France) is that those are kids born and raised in France. Parents or grandparents came in, worked hard, and had kids. These are the people we are referring to (as far as I can tell). Have they ever seen the country where their parents come from? More than likely they have not. However, they've spent their fair share of time stuck in suburban HLM and other places where there's really not much to do, job prospects are meager and so on (watch Intouchables, you get the idea, this is not exaggerated, it is actually like that).

        So those kids are born and raised in France. They are French (to me it's about citizenship, not ethnicity, personal affiliation etc.) in this case. My point is that they are easy targets because they are stuck in a circular loop of bad prospects. And if they are indeed at the source of such horrible acts, the first ones to be shocked by their actions will be their families. They won't understand. They'll blame society etc. but this is not something they would have encouraged or condoned. It's a strange thing because those kids' parents were drilled to assimilate, learn and talk exclusively in French etc. But the new generation goes back to their roots or whatever idea they have of them because they have no actual experience of "life back home".

  • (Score: 2) by kurenai.tsubasa on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:45AM

    by kurenai.tsubasa (5227) on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:45AM (#262995) Journal

    War? Police action, you mean, right? Certainly not war war.

    For those who have been following Star Citizen, Admiral Bishop's speech to the senate [youtube.com] after the attack on Aremis is strangely relevant.

    fwiw, as a citizen, I do not support Admiral Bishop's call for war…. Terra should be the new capitol of the UEE. The navy was in the Vega system [robertsspaceindustries.com] when the attack happened! You Universalist and Centralist cows!

    Apply that as you will to this tragedy.

    Is the Illuminati stepping up the script?

    Go ahead and mark off-topic. I have a feeling much karma will burn in this discussion.

  • (Score: 2) by Username on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:31AM

    by Username (4557) on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:31AM (#263021)

    I could see this being the first time islamic terrorists targeted France, but this has been happening repeatedly for a long time now. Why hasn’t France done anything major to address this, or even the citizens? I would have expected armed police at every major gathering, and other types of counter movements, like community watch or even hate groups. From my perspective it seems like there isn’t any opposition to this like there is the US. We have tons of nutty people who will report muslims for even walking too close to them. Sure, this is negative anti-cultural behavior, but it is effective and has stopped most acts of islamic terrorism.

    • (Score: 4, Informative) by nishi.b on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:04AM

      by nishi.b (4243) on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:04AM (#263037)

      There are lots of policemen and even military (because of antiterror law) in Paris, all the time. The military are mostly in train stations, official buildings and major monuments (Eiffel tower, Notre-Dame de Paris...). All policemen in France are armed.
      This happened in a place where there are a lot of restaurants and cafes, and there are many concert halls, theaters, movie theaters, museums in Paris.
      It seems the attackers arrived in a car, got out and shot indiscriminately on people eating their dinner in the restaurants. Then they moved on to other places, and finally entered in a rock concert (4 of them it seems), shooting in the crowds and then anyone moving or just lying near them.
      In the stadium outside Paris, they threw grenades inside a bar and a restaurant, and the terrorist blew himself up with an explosive belt. Inside the stadium was the french president, which might explain why the terrorist could not get inside the stadium where he might have done even more dammage.
      Everywhere, people thought at first it was just fireworks (in a stadium or in a rock concert, this is not rare).
      Now tell me how you can prevent that ? You cannot have a hundred armed military at every corner of a major city, and anyway they would be startled at first and not react immediatly.
      I don't want my country to turn into a police state to avoid this, and as I say this I just learned that a family member was in the stadium, and a friend, his wife and kid were in a restaurant 200m one where the terrorist shot a dozen people.
      Of course in the following days they will use all emergency state powers to advance the enquiry (police can now search any place and anyone in the country without a warrant for example), but we must keep our core values.

      • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:49PM

        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:49PM (#263209) Journal

        "and anyway they would be startled at first and not react immediatly."

        On that point, I will argue. Training, training, training. I've witnessed the result of training. At the sound of a small explosion, nearly 350 SLEEPING men bailed out of their beds, and raced to battle stations. The ship was at full state of readiness in record time, only 90 seconds. All battle stations manned, every man ready for action, we were only searching for a target. Alas - there was no target. The small explosion was the result of one of our own foolishly tossing a concussion grenade over the side, for shits and giggles.

        It's part of that whole "fight or flight" thing. With the proper training, the tendency to freeze up, and the tendency for flight can be countered, and turned into a fight response. When a gun goes off, you run TOWARD THE GUN instead of taking cover or running away. The sound of a bomb pulls you TOWARD the explosion. Angry, loud voices pull you toward them.

        It's alright to be startled, as long as your body reacts appropriately to being startled - that is, you advance on the source of your startlement. It may take two, ten, or sixty seconds for you to understand the situation, but your reactions are what count. Your understanding isn't necessary, until later.

        --
        On the plus side, I am completely immune to flash-bang grenades. - Helen Keller
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @07:24PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @07:24PM (#263405)

        > I don't want my country to turn into a police state to avoid this,

        That's the goal of the people who did the attacks. They want the clamp down. They want to make life untenable for everyone else - especially all of the regular muslims who are the best protection against further radicalization. When the state treats people like dogs, the anger and the loss of dignity eventually push more of them into becoming dogs. This is how ISIS co-opts France's government into waging war on moderates.

        Every single person you see posting here who argues that this was caused by islam instead of by extremists is doing ISIS's bidding, they are comrades in ideology.

    • (Score: 2) by Anal Pumpernickel on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:58PM

      by Anal Pumpernickel (776) on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:58PM (#263213)

      Yes, let's have government thugs violate people's liberties in the name of safety. Good plan. Even if it did work, I would reject it, because freedom is what's important. But you haven't even proven that it stops terrorist attacks.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 15 2015, @05:28PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 15 2015, @05:28PM (#263691)

        It's limp wristed daisies like this^ preventing us from putting a stop to these problems. I don't care if martial law is imposed and the military are stationed at every house to defeat terrorism. Vote Trump or Putin for president, the rest are hiding behind empty promises and won't do squat except milk taxpayers.

        • (Score: 2) by Anal Pumpernickel on Sunday November 15 2015, @06:31PM

          by Anal Pumpernickel (776) on Sunday November 15 2015, @06:31PM (#263711)

          It's limp wristed daisies like this^ preventing us from putting a stop to these problems. I don't care if martial law is imposed and the military are stationed at every house to defeat terrorism.

          Then move to North Korea, you filthy coward. Someone who truly cares about freedom would never sacrifice their fundamental liberties merely to obtain something petty like safety. In addition, you only open everyone up to being abused by the very same government thugs that you've given massive amounts of unjust powers to (Which will certainly happen because no government throughout history has not oppressed its people in horrendous ways.). Then, not only is the government infringing upon people's fundamental liberties, but this is made worse by the fact that the government is supposed to work for the people, so you have corrupted what is supposed to be a noble entity and turned it into a force for evil, which is significantly worse than anything any terrorists could ever do.

          You want to live in a prison so you can feel safe. I want to live in a free society or die trying. It's cowards like you that help create countries like North Korea in the first place. So it's not me who is the 'limp wristed daisy' here; the "limp wristed daisies" are the bootlicking jingoist scumbags who will happily surrender their liberties so they can feel safe.

          "Give me liberty or give me death" should be the real response to terrorism and governments trying to take away our rights.

  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by aristarchus on Saturday November 14 2015, @06:44AM

    by aristarchus (2645) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @06:44AM (#263102) Journal

    Disappointed in SoylentNews today. So many, so afraid. We can do better.

    --
    #freearistarchus!!!
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:31PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:31PM (#263280)

      "140 people were brutally murdered today, but you know what would fix things? Ignoring the blatantly obvious problem and not discussing it ever. I'm dissappointed in you, SoylentNews, for being afraid of your life just because terrorists attacked a major city. Now if you'll excuse me, I've got some people to call racist today."

      • (Score: 2) by Anal Pumpernickel on Sunday November 15 2015, @06:38PM

        by Anal Pumpernickel (776) on Sunday November 15 2015, @06:38PM (#263713)

        I'm dissappointed in you, SoylentNews, for being afraid of your life just because terrorists attacked a major city.

        That is a good reason to be disappointed in someone. There is no particular reason to be afraid of some terrorists attacking a major city in some country, especially for people who live far away. I'm more likely to be afraid of car accidents, but I'm not afraid of that, so there is no chance of me being afraid of some terrorist attack.

        I can see why the people personally affected would be afraid, but all this rabid fearmongering is just going to lead to a reduction of our liberties.

  • (Score: 2) by Anal Pumpernickel on Saturday November 14 2015, @11:26AM

    by Anal Pumpernickel (776) on Saturday November 14 2015, @11:26AM (#263178)

    People who care about freedom would not sacrifice their fundamental liberties for security. These attacks will almost certainly be used to try to justify infringing upon people's fundamental liberties in the name of security. No one should except that.

    Get ready for the government scumbags who will use these attacks to their advantage.

  • (Score: 1) by What planet is this on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:27PM

    by What planet is this (5031) on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:27PM (#263254)

    There are lots of comments here about who or what is to blame for this sick event. The problem I see is that there is no easy solution to prevent this stuff from happening.

    - We could do nothing. Business as usual, nothing to see here, move along, let the killings continue and hope it's just a fad that will burn itself out. (You don't want to be called a racist after all.)
    - You could require all imams (if I got that right) to register with the government and monitor everything they preach to their followers. (Freedom of relgion gets in the way and, again, you're a racist.)
    - You could deport all Muslims just to be safe. (Freedom of religion and the racist thing again. Although I don't understand how Islam is a "race".)
    - We could develop other sources of energy so we don't have to use that stinking shit called oil from the middle east and bankrupt these terrorist funding assholes. (Or is that racist now too.)

    What is your solution.

    • (Score: 2) by fritsd on Saturday November 14 2015, @05:57PM

      by fritsd (4586) on Saturday November 14 2015, @05:57PM (#263359) Journal

      - Find out who subsidizes and trades with IS, and name & shame them. Seriously, who is still in business with those people?

    • (Score: 2) by Anal Pumpernickel on Saturday November 14 2015, @09:36PM

      by Anal Pumpernickel (776) on Saturday November 14 2015, @09:36PM (#263461)

      What is your solution.

      Investigate crimes when they occur instead of violating people's fundamental liberties in the pursuit of safety. Any country that does the latter is lying if it calls itself free.

  • (Score: 2) by takyon on Saturday November 14 2015, @05:07PM

    by takyon (881) Subscriber Badge <{takyon} {at} {soylentnews.org}> on Saturday November 14 2015, @05:07PM (#263320) Journal

    I just started making this without even realizing it:

    http://www.food.com/recipe/crusty-french-bread-101476 [food.com]

    --
    [SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
  • (Score: 3, Informative) by gnuman on Saturday November 14 2015, @05:09PM

    by gnuman (5013) on Saturday November 14 2015, @05:09PM (#263326)

    JFYI, Paris is not unique in this tragedy. On the same day as ISIL murdered people in Paris, they also murdered people in Lebanon - over 40 were murdered and 200 injured.

    http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/11/isil-claims-suicide-bombings-southern-beirut-151112193802793.html [aljazeera.com]

    This is not caused by "muslims" - this is caused by allowing Syria to remain in lawless limbo for more than half a decade. Thousands of brainwashed criminals have flocked to Syria and continue to do so from all over the world. What do you think they will do when they get back? Be peaceful citizens? If Syria wasn't destabilized like it is, a lot of tragedies would never have happened.