Stories
Slash Boxes
Comments

SoylentNews is people

Breaking News
posted by takyon on Friday October 27 2017, @11:15PM   Printer-friendly
from the freedonia dept.

This afternoon, Catalonia declared independence. At the same time, Spain invoked article 155, to strip Catalonia from its governing powers putting it under direct rule from the federal government. A vote for independence was raised in Catalonian parliament, with part of parliament leaving before the vote on independence started. The motion declaring independence was approved with 70 in favor, 10 against, and two abstentions of the normal 135 total.

From RT: https://www.rt.com/news/407956-catalan-parliament-votes-independence/
From Aljazeera: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/10/catalan-parliament-begins-vote-independence-171027115908493.html
From BBC: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41780116

It will be interesting to see how things unfold. In my opinion, Madrid using violence to stop a referendum gave it the legality they later claim the referendum didn't have. The lack of dialogue paved the way into the only possible outcome, Catalonia declaring independence and Madrid denying it. Whatever happens next, I hope will be peaceful. As to how the EU reacts, I'm hoping they ask for an official referendum, and whatever the outcome, pledges that both Catalonia and Spain will be able to remain in the EU if they desire. That may release tensions a bit.


Original Submission

This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.
Display Options Threshold/Breakthrough Mark All as Read Mark All as Unread
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
(1)
  • (Score: 3, Interesting) by takyon on Friday October 27 2017, @11:38PM (42 children)

    by takyon (881) Subscriber Badge <{takyon} {at} {soylentnews.org}> on Friday October 27 2017, @11:38PM (#588466) Journal

    I'm hoping they ask for an official referendum, and whatever the outcome, pledges that both Catalonia and Spain will be able to remain in the EU if they desire.

    The way it works, Catalonia will start outside of the EU no matter what.

    https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/countries_en [europa.eu]

    Becoming a member of the EU is a complex procedure which does not happen overnight. Once an applicant country meets the conditions for membership, it must implement EU rules and regulations in all areas.

    Any country that satisfies the conditions for membership can apply. These conditions are known as the ‘Copenhagen criteria’ and include a free-market economy, a stable democracy and the rule of law, and the acceptance of all EU legislation, including of the euro.

    A country wishing to join the EU submits a membership application to the Council, which asks the Commission to assess the applicant’s ability to meet the Copenhagen criteria. If the Commission’s opinion is positive, the Council must then agree upon a negotiating mandate. Negotiations are then formally opened on a subject-by-subject basis.

    Due to the huge volume of EU rules and regulations each candidate country must adopt as national law, the negotiations take time to complete. The candidates are supported financially, administratively and technically during this pre-accession period.

    --
    [SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by bob_super on Friday October 27 2017, @11:45PM (27 children)

      by bob_super (1357) on Friday October 27 2017, @11:45PM (#588467)

      Because they are currently in the EU, most regulations and treaties should be a trivial exercise to validate.
      BUT, there are many countries with their own (rich) independentists who don't want a local repeat, and therefore will prevent the process from being easy, to set a clear example. A bit like setting an example with Brexit is critically important for the future of the EU.

      • (Score: 0, Flamebait) by Ethanol-fueled on Friday October 27 2017, @11:49PM (24 children)

        by Ethanol-fueled (2792) Subscriber Badge on Friday October 27 2017, @11:49PM (#588468) Homepage

        Why would anybody want to join the EU only to be maimed and raped by Islamic savages?

        • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @12:21AM (19 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @12:21AM (#588472)

          More stupidity from you. Stop that!

          • (Score: 0, Offtopic) by Ethanol-fueled on Saturday October 28 2017, @12:33AM (18 children)

            by Ethanol-fueled (2792) Subscriber Badge on Saturday October 28 2017, @12:33AM (#588476) Homepage

            I think you're the guy from Slashdot who accused me of being racist for posting the lyrics to Frank Zappa's You are what you is when discussing then-president Barack Obama*. You must have been horrified to bail from there only to find me here.

            AKA Baraq Hussein Soetoro, Indonesian Citizen, CIA plant, fifth-columnist, and propagator of radical Islam

            • (Score: 1, Insightful) by aristarchus on Saturday October 28 2017, @01:04AM (6 children)

              by aristarchus (2645) Subscriber Badge on Saturday October 28 2017, @01:04AM (#588490) Journal

              Everyone is horrified and appalled to find you anywhere, Eth. Enjoy being raped by the Muslin sedges!

              --
              #freearistarchus!!!
              • (Score: 4, Insightful) by aristarchus on Saturday October 28 2017, @08:02AM (5 children)

                by aristarchus (2645) Subscriber Badge on Saturday October 28 2017, @08:02AM (#588605) Journal

                Such interesting mods on this comment, that I am compelled to comment on the mods!

                First, welcome! You are all Soylentils tried and true, else mod points not you would have!

                Second: What the F**** are some of you doing? Does anyone disagree with the veracity of the post? No? (Well, of course not, it is Ethanol_fueled, after all.) So you should not have downmodded a downmod on the Ethanol_fueled, because, well, true???

                Third: Doubtless Eth read this as "California Declared Independence", which would put him in a world of hurt, since San Fran rules would apply! C'mon, Eth! Show us you alter-ego, trans-sexual self! We can deal with it!

                Fourth: If you downmod, The Mightty Buzzardiness might just tattle on you, as he as on me! Nothing is actually anonymous on SoylentNews, especially the anonymous stuff. Did you not see what happened to the aristarchus? Spam modded! Down modded! TMB modded! And why, all because aristarchus is not Ethanol_fueled. That is the only reason I can see. The only reason any rational member of SoylentNews can see. So it must be, SoylentNews is anti-semitic, and thus along the TMB lines, Nazi sympathizing. See how easy it was to connect the dots! You are probably a Nazi! Someone will be along shortly to punch you in the face, no charge!

                --
                #freearistarchus!!!
                • (Score: 1, Troll) by Runaway1956 on Sunday October 29 2017, @03:17AM (4 children)

                  by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Sunday October 29 2017, @03:17AM (#588900) Journal

                  You just don't learn. Trolling is trolling. Flapping your gums to call people names is trolling. At this point in time you are either the foremost, or the second leading troll on Soylent. It's a pretty close race, really, but you seem to choose to troll more people than the other contender for first place. What is it about trolling that you fail to understand? It's really pretty simple. When you have a valid point to make, make it. Making a post just to mock, or denigrate a fellow Soylentil is trolling. So, you are both the number one (or two) troll, as well as the number one mod bomber. Aren't you proud of yourself? It's not just anybody who can intentionally alienate more than half of a population, then try to act like the victim. Are you kin to Adolph Hitler? You do realize that Hitler was just trying to protect his people, right? He was the victim all along.

                  I can't help wondering if you have ANY friends.

                  Ya know - it's almost like you have an addiction. I keep your profile page open, and check on it from time to time because I enjoy troll modding you. You'll go for a few days, posting stuff that really isn't troll material, and I am disappointed. I can't mod you down, if you don't post troll shit. Then, you do some binge trolling, and I can hit you with max troll mods for two or three days in a row.

                  Once again - if you value your karma as much as you claim to value it, then just stop trolling.

                  Do I think that Eth is an admirable person? No - not really. Eth is a pretty smart person, and he is often insightful. But, Eth has some ideas that I find deplorable. I don't admire the man - but I don't spend my time here trolling him over those ideas that I dislike.

                  You? I suspect that your next incarnation will be as a trolling motor on some redneck's fishing rig. Karma, man. Karma. Imagine all that cheap rotgut booze being spilled all over your stained cowling, while trying to push a boat full of lard assed redneck into a good fishing zone.

                  --
                  On the plus side, I am completely immune to flash-bang grenades. - Helen Keller
                  • (Score: 2, Flamebait) by aristarchus on Sunday October 29 2017, @06:06AM (3 children)

                    by aristarchus (2645) Subscriber Badge on Sunday October 29 2017, @06:06AM (#588948) Journal

                    Runaway, you could just admit that you have no idea where Catalonia is. It would be better than all this fluster trying to cover up your basic American ignorance. And once again, I am quite sure that all Soylentils are quite happy that once again you have shared your opinion on something, since your opinion is, well, your opinion, and we are not at all sure why it should interest anyone else, but evidently you think that what you think is somehow important in the larger scheme of things.

                        So, what about those JFK papers? And what about the Huckabee being the only woman Trump has not sexually harassed, so she says all the others are lies? And what about those CERN scientists and the fact that the universe should not exist? Runaway! You are wasting your time ragging on me! Get out there and enlighten the world about what your average over-the-hill redneck hillbilly ex-trucker Arkansawan thinks about the issues of the day!!! Kardashian pregnancies?

                    --
                    #freearistarchus!!!
                    • (Score: 2, Funny) by Runaway1956 on Sunday October 29 2017, @09:50AM (2 children)

                      by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Sunday October 29 2017, @09:50AM (#588977) Journal

                      There are none so blind as he who will not see. Stop trolling, and you can stop the down mods. And, no, contructive criticism is not trolling - but I guess you got your jollies by downmodding that post.

                      --
                      On the plus side, I am completely immune to flash-bang grenades. - Helen Keller
                      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by aristarchus on Sunday October 29 2017, @11:21AM (1 child)

                        by aristarchus (2645) Subscriber Badge on Sunday October 29 2017, @11:21AM (#589001) Journal

                        Stop taking the bait, you complete and utter moron! My god, Runaway! You have such thin skin, for such a tough dude! Or is it that you cannot understand what is going on here? You are allying yourself with enemies of the United States of America! You are a traitor, man! Time to step back, to realize that political correctness is what we used to call "manners", and that racism is endemic in the American South. These two things would be steps in the right direction. Oh, and Eth? You may not realize that I am Jewish. Talk like his killed my relatives in Germany. I have no tolerance for it. And if you defend his anti-semitism, well, you should beware of Jew-Bears, too. And Drop-bears. And Gummi-bears and probably armed bears. You bear-hater, you.

                        --
                        #freearistarchus!!!
                        • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Sunday October 29 2017, @08:42PM

                          by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Sunday October 29 2017, @08:42PM (#589199) Journal

                          I've got my 2nd amendment bears, ain't skeered of no bears.

                          --
                          On the plus side, I am completely immune to flash-bang grenades. - Helen Keller
            • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @01:14AM (8 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @01:14AM (#588492)

              I'm pretty sure you don't do much thinking at all. You're proudly the stupidest person on this site and that kind of stupidity needs to be called out.

              • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Geotti on Saturday October 28 2017, @01:25AM (7 children)

                by Geotti (1146) on Saturday October 28 2017, @01:25AM (#588496) Journal

                Disagree. Ethanol clearly isn't stupid, he just has a different preconception than most users here. And I must say that even though most of the time I'm appalled by his trolling or racism, sometimes he posts rather refreshing comments. So please, if you must criticize him, do so properly and not by calling him names. You can also use the moderation function...

                • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Phoenix666 on Saturday October 28 2017, @03:26AM

                  by Phoenix666 (552) Subscriber Badge on Saturday October 28 2017, @03:26AM (#588545) Journal

                  He's not stupid. He can shine if he wants to. He trolls intentionally. It's too bad. The world would be better with his authentic wit than the dull caricature he constructs.

                  --
                  Washington DC delenda est.
                • (Score: 3, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @08:20AM (4 children)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @08:20AM (#588611)

                  Disagree. Ethanol clearly isn't stupid, he just has a different preconception than most users here.

                  Oh, so that is what the kids these days are calling it! "Differentially preconceptioned!" Sound so much better than "racist retard", or "bassackward plenury of idiocy". All those still apply, of course. My point is, it is not so clear the Eth is not just plain and simple stupid, racist and only has a job because, like John McCain, he has relatives in high places that afford him the luxury of being a troll on the internets. Mostly, however, if any of us were to meat Eth in the face (opps, typo), we would have to punch him in the face, at least. Fucking Nazi!

                  • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Sunday October 29 2017, @03:21AM (1 child)

                    by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Sunday October 29 2017, @03:21AM (#588904) Journal

                    Your assumption that Eth is stupid only cripples you. From a military perspective, one should never underestimate the enemy. And, listen to you - just because you disagree with a man's positions, you assume that he is stupid.

                    An impartial observier might conclude that Eth is smarter than you are.

                    --
                    On the plus side, I am completely immune to flash-bang grenades. - Helen Keller
                    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 29 2017, @06:54AM

                      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 29 2017, @06:54AM (#588961)

                      Eth is not an enemy. He is an idiot. I expect a certain level of competence in my enemies. This is why I also loves me some Runaway! Too stupid to be a threat! Battle of wits with an unarmed opponent!

                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 29 2017, @08:53AM (1 child)

                    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 29 2017, @08:53AM (#588967)

                    like John McCain, he has relatives in high places that afford him the luxury of being a troll on the internets

                    You are comparing an internet troll like Ethanol, to someone that has spend quite a few years of his life trying to serve his country? Really?

                    John McCain is one of the few honourable members of Senate. He actually stands by his principles and his values. Comparing him to Ethanol is really fucked up.

                    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Ethanol-fueled on Sunday October 29 2017, @04:23PM

                      by Ethanol-fueled (2792) Subscriber Badge on Sunday October 29 2017, @04:23PM (#589081) Homepage

                      John McCain is a senile old traitor who, without his family connections, would be rotting in Leavenworth for high treason.

                • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @03:38PM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @03:38PM (#588698)

                  At best he is amusing for the first few times. Amusing in a "monkey throwing shit" type of way. After the first few posts he is stupid all the way.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @01:25AM (1 child)

              by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @01:25AM (#588495)

              Baraq Hussein Soetoro, Indonesian Citizen, CIA plant, fifth-columnist, and propagator of radical Islam

              Haha! His true name [wikipedia.org] keeps getting better!

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @10:49AM

                by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @10:49AM (#588629)

                I thought his name was Baroque and that EF was off somewhere studying Eunuchs.

        • (Score: 0, Flamebait) by GDX on Saturday October 28 2017, @06:02AM (2 children)

          by GDX (1950) on Saturday October 28 2017, @06:02AM (#588590)

          Being Catalonia the part of Spain with most muslins outside Ceuta an Melilla and Islamic radicals, the rapes are going to be the national sport if the secession give fruit.

        • (Score: 1, Flamebait) by turgid on Sunday October 29 2017, @02:50PM

          by turgid (4318) on Sunday October 29 2017, @02:50PM (#589043) Journal

          Why would anyone want to live in the USA, to be bled dry and worked to death to make the super-rich even richer? Or shot by a lunatic spraying random people with bullets because it's his Constitutional right?

          --
          Don't let Righty keep you down. #freearistarchus!!!
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @05:18AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @05:18AM (#588582)

        If an example must be planned and set against Britain for brexit, exactly what, objectively, do you believe the value of the EU's future to be?

      • (Score: 2) by maxwell demon on Saturday October 28 2017, @07:21AM

        by maxwell demon (1608) Subscriber Badge on Saturday October 28 2017, @07:21AM (#588600) Journal

        Actually all that doesn't matter: For a country to join the EU, all EU members have to agree with it, including Spain. I think there's a snowball's chance in hell that Spain would accept an independent Catalonia in the EU.

        --
        The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by tibman on Friday October 27 2017, @11:57PM (1 child)

      by tibman (134) Subscriber Badge on Friday October 27 2017, @11:57PM (#588470)

      They are still part of the EU because the EU doesn't recognize Catalonia to be independent. Catalonia is still part of Spain and Spain is a member of the EU : ) Catalonia is the only "country" that says it is independent. If the EU treats Catalonians any differently than citizens of Spain then that would probably be illegal (for the EU). Unless of course the EU recognizes Catalonia as not being part of Spain. This should be interesting!

      --
      SN won't survive on lurkers alone. Write comments.
      • (Score: 2) by Unixnut on Saturday October 28 2017, @08:20AM

        by Unixnut (5779) on Saturday October 28 2017, @08:20AM (#588612)

        > Unless of course the EU recognizes Catalonia as not being part of Spain.

        The EU cannot recognise a country as being part of another, or not. It is not within its scope, as it is not a sovereign entity.

        When Kosovo unilaterally declared independence against the wishes of the original country (Serbia), the EU clearly stated recognising independence was beyond its remit, and left it to the EU states to formulate a recognition response. Some recognised Kosovo, some (including Spain) didn't.

        So the EU already has defined its attitude to such unilateral declarations of independence, and there shouldn't be much surprise. An independent Catalonia will have to live in a world of being a semi state (Like North Cyprus, Kosovo, Palestine, South Ossetia,Transnistria, etc...). Not fully sovereign, but "independent" in the sense they can rule their little territory as they desire (assuming Spain doesn't either recognise Catalonia as independent, or crushes the rebellion and reasserts control, of course).

    • (Score: 2) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Saturday October 28 2017, @12:51AM (10 children)

      by MichaelDavidCrawford (2339) <mdcrawford@gmail.com> on Saturday October 28 2017, @12:51AM (#588484) Homepage Journal

      the result was that none of the coup plotters got the death penalty.

      Or hadn't the last I heard. The dictator of Turkey promised to retroactively reinstate it.

      It's going to be a good long time before Turkey is accepted by the EU.

      --
      Request Free Credit Report By Mail [annualcreditreport.org.in]
      • (Score: 5, Informative) by Grishnakh on Saturday October 28 2017, @01:23AM (9 children)

        by Grishnakh (2831) on Saturday October 28 2017, @01:23AM (#588494)

        It's going to be a good long time before Turkey is accepted by the EU.

        Hopefully never. They're not a fit for the EU in any way. Maybe if the westernmost piece (which includes Istanbul) seceded from the rest of Turkey and asked to join, but the rest of it has no more place in the EU than Saudi Arabia or Somalia.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @02:10AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @02:10AM (#588515)

          Last I checked Sweden was still in the EU. Shouldnt talk bad about Somalis

        • (Score: 1) by Ethanol-fueled on Saturday October 28 2017, @02:58AM (3 children)

          by Ethanol-fueled (2792) Subscriber Badge on Saturday October 28 2017, @02:58AM (#588535) Homepage

          The convenient relationship between the Western world and Turkey, like other relationships of convenience, depends on the relationships between the United States and Iran and Russia.

          • (Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Saturday October 28 2017, @03:12AM (2 children)

            by Grishnakh (2831) on Saturday October 28 2017, @03:12AM (#588539)

            Well it looks like Turkey is cozying up to Russia these days.

            • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @04:43AM (1 child)

              by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @04:43AM (#588571)

              Given that the US has a large nuclear warhead stockpile (bombs, or ICBMs? I have never been clear on that.) in Turkey, it really is in America, as well as the EU's best interest to decide their feelings on Turkey, rather than keep lalalaing with their fingers in their ears as Turkey becomes further extremist.

              Then again if you look at Shinzo Abe's party's landslide victories in Japan, this may very well be what they are wanting so that there will be a new world war to help increase they military defense spending budget. It'd be nice to believe everybody in power wasn't big on warmongering, but just based on actions the past few years, whether actual military action or legislation making it easier for countries to go to war, it seems like far too many people are 'in on it'.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @07:35AM

                by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @07:35AM (#588602)

                I think that you're getting to the core of what happened in my original timeline. This timeline makes it clear that even TPP/TTIP/TISA wasn't the root cause of World War 3. When President Clinton rammed that through, that was (we had thought) the spark for the market crash and the 2018 riots, giving BRICS a plausible reason to make their move away from the US dollar.

                I expect that in a few months I will be able to see the mirror image play out in this timeline. This is truly fascinating.

        • (Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Saturday October 28 2017, @03:36AM (3 children)

          by Phoenix666 (552) Subscriber Badge on Saturday October 28 2017, @03:36AM (#588547) Journal

          Is it that limited? The coastal areas and Cappadocia seem pretty mild too.

          An EU with Turkey as a member would make it something much more special and transcendant, but it is true it's hard to imagine it when the EU can't even get its act together on matters like Brexit, the Scottish referendum, or Catalonian independence. Europeans can preen, and they do often scoff at the inadequate civilization of others, but when it comes down to it they are as parochial and inflexible as anyone else. Europe will never be greater than it is unless it can overcome those ontological limitations.

          --
          Washington DC delenda est.
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @02:53AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @02:53AM (#588532)

      from the Copenhagen criteria: [europa.eu]

      Membership requires that candidate country has achieved stability of institutions guaranteeing democracy, the rule of law, human rights, respect for and protection of minorities, the existence of a functioning market economy as well as the capacity to cope with competitive pressure and market forces within the Union.

      Spain got grandfathered in: the accession of Spain to the EC happened in 1985 but the criteria weren't formulated until 1993 as part of the creation of the EU.

  • (Score: 5, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @12:08AM (19 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @12:08AM (#588471)

    Full disclosure: Spaniard here, and from Madrid. I don't support Catalonian secession but would gladly see them go rather than having actual violence exerted towards them; and do support allowing a referendum (and them trying to convince them it's in their best interest to stay, much in the same way UK did it with Scotland) as long as it's done in a lawful, agreed upon way.

    I did not comment last time this situation was discussed here, but did read a bit and saw that most people talk about it as if it was Catalonia vs Spain, or vs Madrid. It seems like most here either don't remember or never knew that pro-independence did not even get a majority of the votes on the last election, as the two main pro-independence parties, "Together for Yes" and "Popular Unity Candidcay" got around 48% of the popular vote (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_regional_election,_2015#Results). Electoral districts meant they control the parliament (not quite gerrymandering as nobody changed the "lines", but you get the idea), but do not represent a majority, much less an overwhelming majority that would justify such a narrative of an oppressed nation fighting an invader.

    Not to disregard such an even split, and it is pretty clear that there is a lot of people that want things to change - but there is at least as much people that today found themselves stripped of their nationality by a government that respected neither laws nor regulations, against their wishes. Things need to change, yes, but in a way that is agreeable to a vast majority of the people. At most, today's secession changes the half that feels betrayed by their government.

    With regard to EU membership, that's simply not going to happen. It is one thing to make the rules as you go on a territory you mostly control as the elected government, but pretending to change the EU rules and regulations to accommodate a government that has carved a piece of a member state for themselves and, at most, half of the people there against the will of the other half, for nationalist reasons, is the polar opposite of what the EU was founded for. And of course, most EU nations have their own nationalist regions - not many of them would like to give the impression that seceding unilaterally is a welcome move in the Union. We can discuss whether this is good or bad until our faces are red, but unless for some reason Spain decided to deploy the military and start another Civil War (which is extremely unlikely and I hope never happens) it's just not happening.

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by bob_super on Saturday October 28 2017, @12:24AM

      by bob_super (1357) on Saturday October 28 2017, @12:24AM (#588473)

      There must be a lot of deflation in Spain, because that opinion is worth a lot more than two cents.

      Poloticians claiming a mandate for major changes, out of narrow "victories", is sadly nothing new.

    • (Score: 1) by Ethanol-fueled on Saturday October 28 2017, @12:29AM (1 child)

      by Ethanol-fueled (2792) Subscriber Badge on Saturday October 28 2017, @12:29AM (#588474) Homepage

      Full Disclosure: I've never been to Europe and don't know shit about it. However, I have friends and family who have/do.

      So my comment is basically approaching the issue from a common simpleton's perspective. People tend to like to see underdogs fight "the man" and win, so the knee-jerk reaction of uninformed Gen-X'ers through Gen-Z'ers is to support Catalonian independence. A respected family member, who studied abroad in Spain for a year (as well as later serving in the Peace Corps throughout Latin America), told me that was is going on is just angry noise and with very little planning or strategy behind it, and that their independence is illegitimate and unlawful.

      Others have suggested that it's more of an Arab Spring-style situation in which the Catalonians are being rabble-roused by exterior meddlers as well as interior tumult. Personally, as an uninformed plebe, I support any province's efforts towards independence but only if it is an internal matter between the country and the province and not stirred by external meddling (of course being totally free of any external meddling is impossible nowadays, but you get what I mean), but Antifa comes to mind in that a lot of the protests seem to be mostly angry noise and with little foresight.

         

      • (Score: 0, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @08:30AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @08:30AM (#588613)

        Full Disclosure: I've never been to Europe and don't know shit about it.

        So shut the fuck up about which you have no knowledge or understanding, Eth! Do you want to end up being Runaway? Think about it, a fate worse than death?

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Arik on Saturday October 28 2017, @12:56AM (8 children)

      by Arik (4543) on Saturday October 28 2017, @12:56AM (#588485)
      "I don't support Catalonian secession but would gladly see them go rather than having actual violence exerted towards them"

      So does that mean you opposed the violence used earlier?

      "the two main pro-independence parties, "Together for Yes" and "Popular Unity Candidcay" got around 48% of the popular vote (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_regional_election,_2015#Results)"

      Isn't that actually pretty normal in a parliamentary system? Rojoy's party got ~33% of the vote and took nearly a year to form a minority government themselves IIRC.

      "but there is at least as much people that today found themselves stripped of their nationality"

      Who has been stripped of their nationality? Huh?

      "At most, today's secession changes the half that feels betrayed by their government."

      I see what you're saying there, which is (one reason) why I think it's a shame there hasn't been any real dialogue.

      "And of course, most EU nations have their own nationalist regions - not many of them would like to give the impression that seceding unilaterally is a welcome move in the Union"

      I think this is the biggest reason the EUcrats aren't going to go for this. Some early and enthusiastic EU supporters were found among stateless nationalists - in Catalonia, Scotland, Scania, etc. All these little European traditional nationalities that tended to get swallowed up by larger empires such as France and Spain for practical reasons (having been too small to effectively defend themselves in an age of empires) can potentially come back once the empires themselves have become part of this larger union. It makes a lot of sense long term. There's no reason to preserve the Empire of Spain inside an EU structure where defense is the sphere of the central EU government rather than Madrid. Nor is there any reason to preserve France (both Catalonia and the Basque country straddle that border of course, then there's Brittany,) no reason Belgium can't split back into Wallonia and Flanders, no reason Malmö has to take orders from Stockholm... well no reason except the politics of it; no central government ever wants to give up power or territory, and the EU is actually composed of these central governments, so that's a pretty reliable 'no reason' that's probably not changing anytime soon. Plus the central EU government doesn't really have an army yet, not that they aren't working on it! but yeah, places like Berlin, Madrid, and Paris run the EU and they're still deathly afraid of the consequences.

      "We can discuss whether this is good or bad until our faces are red, but unless for some reason Spain decided to deploy the military and start another Civil War (which is extremely unlikely and I hope never happens) it's just not happening."

      How else can you see this ending? Catalonia has now declared independence, Rajoy is planning to 'fire' them, but they no longer recognize his authority to do so, what is he going to do next if not use force again?

      --
      "If Evolution Is Outlawed, Only Outlaws Will Evolve."
      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by bob_super on Saturday October 28 2017, @01:38AM

        by bob_super (1357) on Saturday October 28 2017, @01:38AM (#588499)

        > How else can you see this ending? Catalonia has now declared independence

        That's how it goes next: "A group of elected people illegally declared independence, based on an illegitimate referendum, and we do not recognize the declaration".

        The actual ending? That depends 100% on the next fair elections. If the independentists gain popularity and get an outright majority, Madrid is legitimately screwed. If the independentists lose any ground, Spain stays together.
        Madrid has a lot of work to do to make sure they get the result they want. Which is hard when the Spanish economy sucks, you've already come down hard on the dissenters, and you don't really have more autonomy to offer.

      • (Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @02:10AM (3 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @02:10AM (#588516)

        but they no longer recognize his authority to do so,

        http://www.elmundo.es/cataluna/2017/10/28/59f3b4f146163f03158b460a.html [elmundo.es] Oops! Puigdemont forgot to tell him he must stay because they are all independent and make their own laws as they want. Or just ignore them. Whatever is needed to reach the promised land. /s

        • (Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Saturday October 28 2017, @03:17AM (2 children)

          by Grishnakh (2831) on Saturday October 28 2017, @03:17AM (#588540)

          Um, I have little idea what this article is about since I don't read Spanish. I tried Google Translate, but it really wasn't much help: I can't figure out if this guy is Catalan or non-Catalan, and if he's resigning from the national legislature or the Catalan one. I take it from your tone that he's a Catalan parliament member, but I'm not entirely sure.

          • (Score: 0, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @04:04AM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @04:04AM (#588559)

            He is the police director, Mossos d'Escuadra is the Catalonian police. Central government fired the Govern, of which he was part. Parlament chamber got dissolved as law dictates to proceed with new elections, but he is not a member. Non independentists MPs also lost their chairs in the Parlament, as it always happens in the count down to elections.

            http://www.elmundo.es/espana/2017/10/27/59f33d27e5fdeac54b8b4647.html [elmundo.es] President of Govern, fired. Other Govern members (heads of local Deparments), fired. President and Vicepresident Offices, dissolved. Transition Council created by independentists, dissolved. Diplocat and other PR offices outside Catalonia (embassies as independentists prefer to call them, no country accepted them as that, project as such started in 2012), closed except the ones in Brussels and Madrid; in those two places just the directors are fired. Tasks will be performed by/directed from equivalent central Ministries/Deparments as needed will all the lower bureaucracy stays, no new Govern will be set until voting takes place.

            Mossos still stay in place. But the measures approved under 155 allow Policia/Guardia Civil to be called and replace Mossos if they don't obey orders. They were caught sneaking papers to be burnt, and judges had to push to keep them as they don't believe they were just old papers and want to be sure they are not recent. Yet no charges so far.

            Things will be applied on a case-by-case way, the 155 approval included that condition.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 29 2017, @03:50AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 29 2017, @03:50AM (#588915)

              Other reports say Rajoy specifically sacked Soler and another police official:

              A day after the Catalan parliament defied Madrid and voted for a unilateral declaration of independence, Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy issued a decree that confirmed the sacking of Josep Lluís Trapero, head of the regional police force, the Mossos d'Esquadra.

              Trapero already faced charges of sedition over his force's actions in the run-up to Catalonia's banned Oct. 1 independence referendum. The director general of the Catalan police, Pere Soler, was also dismissed.

              ( http://www.ktxs.com/news/world/catalan-police-chief-sacked-as-madrid-takes-steps-to-impose-direct-rule/647048490 [ktxs.com] )

              ...the Madrid government removed Josep Lluís Trapero Álvarez as chief of Catalonia's autonomous Mossos police force.

              Mr Trapero was already under investigation for sedition, accused of failing to help Spain's Guardia Civil police tackle thousands of pro-independence protesters in Barcelona during the run-up to the referendum.

              Pere Soler i Campins, the Mossos director general, has also been dismissed.

              ( http://daily-sun.com/post/264613/Catalonia-independence:-Spain-takes-charge-of-Catalan-government [daily-sun.com] )

      • (Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @12:33PM (2 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @12:33PM (#588653)

        I'm the AC from the first post on the thread. Let me reply to your points one at a time

        *** VIOLENCE ***
        I did not support the deployment of police forces on the October 1st vote because a) I did not want people to be hurt because of the irresponsible actions of the governmental elites that will benefit the most from a secession; and b) because it was a huge strategic mistake, as it was obvious it would not be effective to stop the vote and only serve as a PR disaster. And true enough, the pro-independence propaganda machine had a field day with it.

        Let me be clear about it before I add anything else: I don't like violence being used, and I was appalled by some of the images I saw. I perceive the Catalan people, even the separatists that spew bile against Spain and Spaniards day in, day out, to by my countrymen and countrywomen, my brothers and sisters, and I am very, VERY unhappy that our politicians have handled this situation so poorly since years ago. It is my belief both the Catalan and Central governments have used this situation to distract attention from the economic crisis and the corruption scandals that this last decade have been undermining them, and they have fueled a terrible increase on bad blood and outright hate in a lot of people. Not everyone, not even in the pro-independence movement, but enough that, whatever happens, it will be very easy to re-establish social peace in Spain - or even inside Catalonia.

        But when mentioning violence I'd like to mention some facts I believe to be true and seem to be frequently ignored:
        1 - Police was deployed under court orders, and not the executive's. You can argue that the judicial power is not as independent as it should be in Spain and I would agree there's grounds for that assessment, but it's definitely not North Korea, either. If a judge (in a Catalan court no less) orders the police to seize ballots, close voting venues and evacuate people that would try to stop the court mandate to go ahead, police forces have a duty to carry on the orders and the executive power's only role is to provide the necessary logistics for them to do so. Any other situation is a violation of the rule of law and the separation of powers which are the basis on which any democracy can strive to survive and serve the people.
        2 - This is not the first time Catalans are asked to vote on their preference regarding independence, but it IS the first time the regional government has vowed to follow through with unilateral secession in 2 days time (they finally took longer than that). Last time people were allowed to vote while the court followed their (frequently slow) mechanisms before finally ruling the vote to be unconstitutional and unenforceable. And of course it is, the Spanish constitution (available in English here: http://www.congreso.es/portal/page/portal/Congreso/Congreso/Hist_Normas/Norm/const_espa_texto_ingles_0.pdf) [congreso.es] states in its second section "The Constitution is based on the indissoluble unity of the Spanish Nation, the common and indivisible homeland of all Spaniards; it recognises and guarantees the right to self government of the nationalities and regions of which it is composed and the solidarity among them all.". As time was a factor, the judge ordered preventative measures.
        3 - Then there is of course the matter of roughly half of the Catalan people not wanting independence, and, more specifically, wanting to remain Spanish. It is also known that a number of pro-independence people don't want to actually secede but use it as a tool to force the central government to allow more fiscal autonomy for the region (not surprising on a rich region), but as the number of these is unknown I will still talk about a roughly even split. Not acting following the law would have meant hurting the rights of the law abiding, constitution respecting half in favor of the people that want to change things disregarding laws and the other half.
        4 - The figures are terrible: almost 900 hurt in clashes with the police. In particular, a person will most likely never recover eyesight on one eye after being hit with a rubber bullet. That should have never happened, and in fact shooting rubber rounds is illegal in Catalonia, so there will most likely be consequences for the agent that shot it.

        But then again, what happened to those 900? The figure has been waved around a lot, but is it true? Not quite: 900 were treated by health services on that day, including people that suffered nervous breakdowns. Now, of course, a nervous breakdown is not nice, but it's not what people had been led to believe which is "900 hundred were hit with truncheons until they bled". Of the 900, 4 needed to be hospitalized. 4, not 400.

        And then of course there are doubts about how many of those "nervous breakdowns" were real. A very well known case was of the woman that had her fingers broken by police "one by one", as she recorded on a voice message that made the rounds on the media. Pep Guardiola, very well known manager of the Manchester City football/soccer team and Catalan nationalist, tweeted about it so it got further european-wide (possibly world-wide) exposure. The voice message talk about "such evil", described a sexual assault.

        A day later it was known that no fingers were broken, she had one with a painful bursitis and that was it. For a cop trying to break them "one by one" and only manage to get one swollen is surprising, especially for "such evil" a cop. Then we learned the woman was part of one of the pro-independence parties, member of a local government and as such set to have their powers increased after independence. I have no actual, definite proof that all of it was a deliberate exaggeration to be used as part of the propaganda campaign, but considering the circumstantial evidence I believe it very likely.

        5 - Then there is the several recordings that have shown the "peaceful", "civic" protesters attacking police first in some instances:
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCVo_Dhn3ZI [youtube.com]
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0GwYEfTgzw [youtube.com]

        6 - And there is, of course, the fact that the judge asked the regional police (Mossos D'Esquadra) to be the ones leading the actions so as to not increase tensions with people. They did not, as the person in command was (has been removed today) a pro-independence militant and personal ally of the regional government. Let me re-phrase it. Instead of following the laws and constitution that they swore to uphold when they got the job, and contrary to the court orders, the police acted on the executive power's orders. That is, not only did they not follow their orders, in the process they violated the separation of powers that is the cornerstone of all modern democracies.

        ---

        But I will repeat it again, I would have rather not had any violence that day. It changed nothing, a person lost function on one eye, another man suffered a heart attack, several people (surely not 900, but probably tens of them) were hurt, several police officers were hurt, the PR blow was massive and lots of people in Catalonia truly believed the narrative of an evil central power sending their armies to quell unrest.

        *** Parliamentary system ***
        It is certainly normal for governments to be able to exert executive power with small majorities, or even forming coalitions - the Catalan government was in that situation as well. Changing the constitution of a country usually requires at least two thirds of the legislative power to agree, however, so such a minority government would not be able to do it without reaching a consensus with the opposition. Catalan rules do require a qualified majority (again, two thirds) for big regulatory changes to be approved - changing the directors of the regional television and radio public corporation is considered to be such a large change, for example.

        Now, this regional government has decided to secede with 70 votes out of 135, and knowing they have those votes not even because more than half the people support them, but because regional districts favour countryside voters over city voters (you need less votes on the more rural areas to get a seat on the Generalitat parliament than in, say, Barcelona). With less than half the voters supporting them (and almost a quarter of the voters not even having said anything at all). While they wouldn't appoint a new director for the regional television with such support.

        (Followed on next comment, Soylent complained it was too long)

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @12:40PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @12:40PM (#588656)

          *** Nationality ***
          Now I must apologise here, as no one did actually lose their nationality just yet. I was tired when writing yesterday (2am in Spain) and wanted to convey too much information in too short a sentence, and failed. What I mean to say is, should secession crystallise, a lot of people that love their land but also Spain would be forced to choose between their home and their country. Of course there is another half that does not feel Spanish. It is a complex matter, but I don't believe you solve it by saying "Now I am on top and you are screwed". Catalonia already enjoyed a high degree of autonomy (widely considered among the top in the world even if the country is not, nominally, a federation) before their government decided to forego laws, constitution, its own statute of autonomy and even the laws they themselves promulgate, even when they are unconstitutional - they even violated their own referendum law in several ways.

          *** Betrayed by their government ***
          I agree this should have been solved by politicians doing politics, and years ago. It's true that the Catalan government has been skirting or directly bending the laws for a long time, but it is no less try there were about 2 million unhappy people in Catalonia that wanted things to change. It is my belief there are some legitimate reasons for that, but also a degree of manipulation from the political elites (they stand to benefit greatly from secession, not least because the corruption causes being pursued against them would be dropped by the judges appointed directly by the independent government - and yes, this violation of the separation of powers is present in their own transition law, approved by the same 48% popular vote, 70 out of 135 votes majority less than 2 months ago).

          Catalonia was among the richest regions in Europe (it seems likely their economy will suffer noticeably whatever happens), with really high standards of living, human development, cultural output. Aside from a high degree of self-government, Catalonians have no restrictions on the usage of their language and enjoyment of their traditions. They can freely talk against the central government (and frequently do), they can freely elect their officials out of nationalist parties, unlike in, for example, France (and almost always do)... Basically, what they cannot do is secede, nor stay but elect not to contribute to poorer regions' economies - and this last part has been a big part of the push to secede. What I want to express is that Catalonian independentism has been sending a message about an oppressed nation that needs help escaping from an authoritarian dictatorship, and that couldn't be further from the truth.

          Spain was a dictatorship not that long ago. Catalan language was banned. No one could choose their government officials. People supporting nationalism were jailed, tortured, executed... or simply disappeared. People supporting democracy too. To try and sell that nothing has changed since the dictatorship ended can only be the worst type of nationalist populism. And it has served to make people feel oppressed. The central government has had its fair share of guilt on this too, more by omission than action, but I at least perceive it to be a great disservice of the Catalan government to its people, for its own selfish reasons.

          *** European Union ***
          Providing a full account of Catalan and Spanish history would take far longer than I've already written, and it is too long already. Catalonia has been a part of Spain since its inception. I'll try to be brief: The Frankish Kingdom cleared the northern part of the Iberian peninsula of the Muslim people that ruled it back then (around 800 CE) to establish a buffer zone between the two empires. That Spanish mark, simplifying, developed to be independent of the Frankish empire and, through war and marriages, to be under control of the Count of Barcelona. At around the same time other kingdoms formed in the peninsula and started to take it back from the Muslim empire. On the 12th century, the Crown of Aragon and the County of Barcelona were joined in marriage, and as such formed a single political entity (the Crown of Aragon). On the 15th century the rulers of the Kingdom of Castile and Kingdom of Aragon married, and then their son and heir inherited both crowns, forming the basis of present day's Spain. The history is a lot more complex, as Catalonia retained most of its institutions until 1714, which granted it a degree of autonomy even while being part of the larger country, but it is very incorrect to talk about a small nation being swallowed by a large empire. Catalonia was a part of Spain since day 1.

          Now, with regard of the EU wanting to maintain current borders, I don't see it as exactly bad or wrong. It is my belief we need fewer borders, not more, and fewer reasons to believe a group of people so distinct and separate from another. I am of the thought that we are all basically the same, and share the same mud ball, so drawing lines in the sand can only be a bad thing. It means we as a race are more worried in keeping the neighbour away than finding the way to expand to other planets before we or a huge asteroid destroy this one. I see the EU as a possible way to reduce nationalisms, borders and other useless constructs in the future. As such, increasing the number of borders and separate governments inside the EU is contrary to my beliefs.

          *** How it is going to end ***
          I don't think there will be a full-on war, but unfortunately it is likely there will be police violence involved. Both the Catalan and central Spanish government have had several chances in the last few weeks to avoid it, but decided on a collision course. This can only end up badly for the people, both pro- and anti-independence. I hope I am wrong and a peaceful solution can be found, but it was much easier before and it did not happen. As I said in my previous message, I'd rather see them go than having people actually hurt or killed by the hundreds, thousands, or even tens. Or just one. I still see them as my kin, as tribal as it is. I've met lots of Catalans, and even had a (independentist!) Catalan girlfriend. I truly appreciate them, and

          • (Score: 2) by Arik on Monday October 30 2017, @08:15PM

            by Arik (4543) on Monday October 30 2017, @08:15PM (#589638)
            An interesting read and I thank you. I want to preface this by saying I have no allegiance to either side, I'm not Spanish though I've visited and have friends there that I hope stay both safe and free.

            "It is my belief both the Catalan and Central governments have used this situation to distract attention from the economic crisis and the corruption scandals that this last decade have been undermining them"

            This sounds eminently plausible.

            "1 - Police was deployed under court orders, and not the executive's. You can argue that the judicial power is not as independent as it should be in Spain and I would agree there's grounds for that assessment"

            As far as I'm able to discern, this is a really important part of the problem. Without an independent judiciary, the game is rigged. If the game is rigged, and this is discovered and understood, then people don't feel obligated to follow the rules anymore and what we euphemistically refer to as civilized society ceases to function. People that are very rules-oriented and diligent may not abandon the idea entirely but even they are forced to find some maneuver to restore the game, which means they too abandon the rules as previously written.

            "2 - This is not the first time Catalans are asked to vote on their preference regarding independence, but it IS the first time the regional government has vowed to follow through with unilateral secession in 2 days time (they finally took longer than that)."

            And you present that in a light that seems positive for the centrists, but from the other point of view I think it's seen in a very different context, as an indication of just how long they've been trying to spark a dialogue with a brick wall.

            "It is also known that a number of pro-independence people don't want to actually secede but use it as a tool to force the central government to allow more fiscal autonomy for the region (not surprising on a rich region), but as the number of these is unknown I will still talk about a roughly even split"

            It doesn't even matter if they're only a few (though my impression is they're the bulk.) Politics! Split off 10%, maybe 20%, satisfy them, that's all you have to do to restore the appearance of legitimacy. There doesn't seem to have been mainstream support for secession prior to the summer of 2010. I visited Barcelona in years before that and saw a lot of 'nationalism' of a very benign variety but no one spoke for secession, even after they got liquored up and trolled a little in fact.

            But as I said, there's an instinctive human response that says if the game is dirty then we can cheat too. Once that meme takes hold it's bad days for civilized society all around.

            "Now I must apologize here, as no one did actually lose their nationality just yet. I was tired when writing yesterday (2am in Spain) and wanted to convey too much information in too short a sentence, and failed. What I mean to say is, should secession crystallize, a lot of people that love their land but also Spain would be forced to choose between their home and their country."

            Accepted, it's easy enough to let your rhetoric slip just one pixel over the line, and hard to own it and apologize.

            Also, I think that if this happened as the secessionists want it to, no one would be forced to make that choice. As far as I understand it their primary goal was simply to restore the Statute of 2006, and then secession became a fall-back position due to there being absolutely zero progress or expectation on progress with the primary goal. And even then they imagine an EU state and an open border with Spain so no dislocation of individuals. Of course there are diverse groups involved and I'm sure that doesn't accurately characterize absolutely everyone, but my impression is that it's a pretty substantial number of people.

            "The history is a lot more complex, as Catalonia retained most of its institutions until 1714, which granted it a degree of autonomy even while being part of the larger country, but it is very incorrect to talk about a small nation being swallowed by a large empire."

            OK, it needs a little more nuance. One small nation married another and gave birth to an Empire. It was a happy marriage for a long time, but now she's saying "give me space or I'm leaving" and he's saying "I'll never let you leave!"

            The kids aren't sure what to make of it. They don't really want her to leave, but they kind of want him to chill the F out and give them a little space sometimes too.

            --
            "If Evolution Is Outlawed, Only Outlaws Will Evolve."
    • (Score: 1) by Ethanol-fueled on Saturday October 28 2017, @03:00AM (3 children)

      by Ethanol-fueled (2792) Subscriber Badge on Saturday October 28 2017, @03:00AM (#588536) Homepage

      I know that's you, Mike.

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by frojack on Saturday October 28 2017, @06:34AM (1 child)

      by frojack (1554) Subscriber Badge on Saturday October 28 2017, @06:34AM (#588595) Journal

      is the polar opposite of what the EU was founded for.

      It seems that mostly only Germany is experiencing the EU exactly as they (Germany) thought it was founded for.

      Just about every other country has been, to one extent or another, disillusioned by the EU, as it falls far short of what it was founded for.

      --
      No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 29 2017, @09:09AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 29 2017, @09:09AM (#588970)

        Just about every other country has been, to one extent or another, disillusioned by the EU, as it falls far short of what it was founded for.

        It seems it was founded for the reason that co-operation is better than war. But fuck that, who needs a boring life. Would you like war again? Yugoslavia had their fun, and the once rich nation is fucked up quite nicely. Ukraine has their turn. Would you prefer another war in western europe? Or Poland? Estonia and those little nations didn't really exist last century, so those might be gone... right? Who needs the EU... who needs co-operation. Let nationalists just "duke it out"? right?

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @05:27PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @05:27PM (#588727)

      if it's not popular in catalonia then why is the spanish gov fighting so hard. if spain is not leeching off of catalonia then why does it care so much? is the party line that spain is fighting to save catalonia from it's self, b/c that's hilarious.

  • (Score: 2) by looorg on Saturday October 28 2017, @12:47AM

    by looorg (578) on Saturday October 28 2017, @12:47AM (#588481)

    As to how the EU reacts, I'm hoping they ask for an official referendum, and whatever the outcome, pledges that both Catalonia and Spain will be able to remain in the EU if they desire. That may release tensions a bit.

    I seriously doubt any other EU country would recognize Catalonia as a sovereign nation, their little "vote" just won't do it. If that was all it took to stand on your own two feet there would be a lot of new countries every time someone had a fit about something.

    I'm wondering how long it will take for Spain/Madrid to reassert its dominance over the area. It's the basic of being a nation, control over your territory and your population. It could be as peaceful or brutal as they would like really, I doubt it will even require much violence.

  • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @12:50AM (13 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @12:50AM (#588482)

    Currently the EU is a mess. There is, mostly, a shared currency, but taxes and benefits are uneven. This is not long-term viable.

    We had this for America, under the articles of confederation, before we ratified our constitution. It didn't go well.

    So the EU needs to sort things out, becoming a proper nation. Parts that don't agree need to be kicked out. The parts staying in the EU need to lose their national character, much as the US states generally did. Redrawing all the internal borders would go a long way toward that. Each existing "country" of the EU should be split or merged, with much of the old government being absorbed into a federal EU government.

    A nice way to go about it would be to redraw based on language. This could be redone every decade.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @01:14AM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @01:14AM (#588493)

      So the EU needs to sort things out, becoming a proper nation.

      But nationalism is eeevvvviiiillll!

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by jmorris on Saturday October 28 2017, @06:57AM

        by jmorris (4844) Subscriber Badge <jmorrisNO@SPAMbeau.org> on Saturday October 28 2017, @06:57AM (#588596)

        Empires are usually evil, and that is all the EU can ever aspire to since there is no commonality in the mismash of nations it seeks to dominate in Germany's name. Does this EU everyone is so enamored of have a common language? A common culture, a common people, a common history, a common enemy, ANYTHING in common? No. The correct word for a single political entity ruling over a bunch of beaten peoples is EMPIRE.

        Nationalism can be a good thing, can be a bad thing. I'm afraid the U.S. is in almost the same shape though, other than a mostly common language (that is quickly vanishing into a Tower of Babel) and history, we are losing the common culture and starting to split into warring tribes who hate each other. Nationalism here might very well end up with several nations but our warring tribes don't neatly split along geographic boundaries so much unpleasantness will result as that sorts itself out.

        On the other hand, it does appear that there ARE a lot of natural nations in Europe, problem is they don't all neatly fall along the existing borders. Catalonia seems to meet most of the qualifications as do at least a half dozen more such examples. But since they want to be in the EU it makes it mostly pointless and impossible. Every fragment would rather be a direct EU member and cut out the middleman but the EU can't function now, it knows it can't with twice the voting membership. So this will be a lot of noise and drama that accomplishes nothing, nobody is going to take this to a shooting war over Catalonia's place in the EU org chart. Nobody is going to enlist and possibly die in that cause.

    • (Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Saturday October 28 2017, @01:40AM (4 children)

      by Grishnakh (2831) on Saturday October 28 2017, @01:40AM (#588500)

      America, even back then, was very different from the EU now. For one, they mostly all spoke English, since they were a bunch of English colonies. They didn't have greatly differing cultures like Germany vs. Greece. One big problem is that having the same currency means sharing a monetary policy, which works out well for some members and not so well for others, which is exactly what we've seen with Greece and Portugal. I'm not sure how to solve that.

      If it weren't for the monetary problem, in theory it shouldn't be *that* hard for this motley crew of countries to have an alliance and get along together. It seems to me that they should work to eliminate existing borders between nations, and water down their sovereignty, and break them up into smaller units so the union isn't dominated by a few very large nations and their wishes. Then it'd be more like what we have here in the US, with the states not having so much power, but still having the power to do many things their own way, which in a union with so many languages would be even more desirable. There's long been internal strife and tensions in many EU nations because of the way they were formed and the way borders were drawn (usually as the result of war, but sometimes stupid royal marriages centuries ago). IMO, they should just ask the people in different regions what they want to do, and generally try to give them their own separate nation where they can have all the signs in their preferred language, but the region is large enough to be a viable "state" with its own government (i.e., not the size of Andorra). As part of the EU, with free trade between members, a shared currency, and perhaps with a merged military, it really shouldn't matter that much if a place like Catalonia is independent or not. It shouldn't matter any more than if California were to break in half: would that really be such a bad thing if it happened?

      Nationalism is precisely what led to WWI and WWII in Europe, and nationalism is what IMO is driving Madrid to refuse to allow Catalonia to secede. Catalonia doesn't want to leave the EU, just Spain and the bad memories they still have there. As part of the EU, they'll still be paying taxes to help out other member states, and hopefully the EU will move to be more integrated that way in the future too.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @01:59AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @01:59AM (#588510)

        For small values of "most" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_language_in_the_United_States#History [wikipedia.org]

        The "we could be speaking German now" may be a myth, but that a lot of German speaking moved from Europe is not. It was the second language for a long time.

      • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @04:15AM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @04:15AM (#588561)

        Nationalism did not lead to WW1 or WW2. What lead to WW1 and WW2 were corrupt governments, and a willingness of violation of national soveriegnty. Nationalism is about soveriegnty for a people of a country. Violating that sovereignty is against nationalism. Its like how people have rights which are there own as independant beings, like free speech. If you get into a bar fight, we wouldn't blame it on their individual rights to things like free speech giving them the right to beat up other people. Being a free willed being doesnt give you the right to beat up other people and take away their free will. Most people do not want war. The people of the nations, have been cheated by corrupt governments and elitists. Governments are not nations. Nations are the people. People have been manipulated, abused, propogandized and cheated for a long time by corrupt governments to serve the elite. Now you are rewarding the elite and punishing the victims, if you blame the people of the nations.

        • (Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday October 28 2017, @03:42PM

          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Saturday October 28 2017, @03:42PM (#588701) Journal

          Violating that sovereignty is against nationalism.

          Only if you share the same nation. Being a nationalist doesn't mean that you respect other nations other than your own.

          What lead to WW1 and WW2 were corrupt governments, and a willingness of violation of national soveriegnty.

          Corruption is a vague term and a matter of degree. Every government is corrupt to some degree so in the absence of any more concrete criteria, we have the preconditions necessary for the next global war even though no such war has happened yet.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @05:42AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @05:42AM (#588586)

        If not nationalism what do you believe to be driving Catalonian independence? This isn't to ask what stirred up the pot (violence against voters in the referendum), but in reference to the reasoning behind the desire for independence in the first place.

        What do you believe the difference between nationalism and individualism is when nationalism comes from a large group of individuals who desire self-determination as a nation? Why is a focus on the self, whether it be as an individual or as a nation, somehow a catalyst for agression and violence in your mind?

    • (Score: 2) by Geotti on Saturday October 28 2017, @01:50AM (1 child)

      by Geotti (1146) on Saturday October 28 2017, @01:50AM (#588504) Journal

      need to lose their national character, much as the US states generally did.

      Wut?! You do understand the fine difference between the US, which has been colonized and became a nation at some point and a supranational organization like the EU, which is not a nation and will hardly ever be one, don't you? A constitution would be great, a federal system would be awesome, but currently the eurosceptics are gaining more momentum every day and unless the causes for this are eliminated, the EU is going to break apart before that happens.

      • (Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday October 28 2017, @03:43PM

        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Saturday October 28 2017, @03:43PM (#588702) Journal

        and a supranational organization like the EU, which is not a nation and will hardly ever be one

        I'm not so confident in that matter. The blob has already usurped a fair bit of power from its member nations.

    • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @03:50AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @03:50AM (#588553)

      Just abolish the EU instead. Problem solved. People go to visit France, Germany. France has champagne and Foie Gras and Germany has Ale, Bratwurst and Schnitzel. People want each country to have its own unique sovereign flavor and nature. Since it clearly takes abolishing EU to preserve the European national identities, get on with it. You don't want to become another US with McDonalds and Wal-marts everywhere.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @05:25AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @05:25AM (#588583)

      Why exactly do you believe the members of the EU would have any desire to do that?

      It's commonly believed that the reasons for joining the EU were for economic benefit, and to compete as a unified power on the world stage. An attempt for countries to self-enrich, not self-sacrifice.
      Do you believe that to be wrong? Do you believe there was some other motive for joining?

    • (Score: 2) by rleigh on Saturday October 28 2017, @09:22AM

      by rleigh (4887) on Saturday October 28 2017, @09:22AM (#588619) Homepage

      The prospective loss of national identity, sovereignty etc. isn't something that many people would find desirable or acceptable. We don't want to lose our nations, and we have zero love of or loyalty to the EU, unlike our own countries. That's one of the main reasons I voted to leave in the British referendum last year. When you blithely say nations "need to lose their national character", I think you need to look long and hard at the implications of that, and think about whose goals your are furthering by doing do; it's not in the interests of the actual people who live in those nations, you're taking away what makes them them, and what they are proud of. The long terms goals of the EU with a federal army etc. are not benign or democratic; do you really want to live under the jackboots of people who want to further their interests at your expense?

    • (Score: 2) by SanityCheck on Sunday October 29 2017, @06:24AM

      by SanityCheck (5190) on Sunday October 29 2017, @06:24AM (#588955)

      It will never become a nation, nor should it. Lot of countries didn't sign up to be a nation, and they will fucking leave because no one likes you changing the rules of the club once people have joined.

  • (Score: 4, Funny) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Saturday October 28 2017, @12:57AM (1 child)

    by MichaelDavidCrawford (2339) <mdcrawford@gmail.com> on Saturday October 28 2017, @12:57AM (#588486) Homepage Journal

    I was interested to learn this while I was there:

    CERN was created to give Europeans something to do other than killing each other.

    There are two tribes in New Guinea that from time to time would go to war until just one man died.

    They would both then retreat, with the winning tribe benefitted with abundance, and the losing tribe getting kicked in the teeth by whatever god they worshipped.

    Eventually the losing tribe would get tired of taking all that crap and would start a war. Again just one man dies.

    It's documented in a fascinating movie called "Dead Birds" that was shown in UCSC's Anthropology of Religion class.

    Anthropologies usually try to leave cultures undisturbed. But they felt they had to do something to prevent such tragedy.

    Now the two tribes play soccer!

    --
    Request Free Credit Report By Mail [annualcreditreport.org.in]
    • (Score: 0, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @06:30AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @06:30AM (#588594)

      Yes?? And?? Does one man still die of a soccer injury??

      Your stories suck.

  • (Score: 0, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @01:48AM (3 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @01:48AM (#588503)

    Spain is not a federation, so there is no federal government. One opposition party wants to make it that way in the future, which obviosly means it is not. Central government, on the other hand, yes. Details matter.

    EU and many EU countries already said they don't recongnized the split. USA also sided with Spain as a whole. Russia loves to stir the pot, of course.

    Independentists wished there was serious violence, they would have got their martyrs. https://gaceta.es/espana/los-separatistas-necesitan-muerto-sirva-simbolo-20170906-0650/ [gaceta.es] Not even when they replied with violence they got more than some concusions and a heart attack (and pushed a good deal of fake news, they love playing victim). https://player.elconfidencial.com/embed/video/30972/640/360/ [elconfidencial.com] The chair thrower was detained days ago, BTW.

    Legal advisors of the Generalitat told the chamber president they were breaking the chamber laws, and left before the voting, rejecting to take part in it. Opposition also left, 53 missing votes. 2 abstentions should be Yes, independentists got two black sheep. Voting was secret, so they will be unable to purge them. Or maybe it was a trick so judges can't charge them all as they would charge 2 innocent.

    A region of Catalonia, Valle de Aran, wants to split from it if they split. What is good for the goose... "NO! We split but you can't!"

    The Generalitat's President was so happy after the voting giving themselves independence... he ignored the independentists meeting in the square near the Parlament and left by a side door. :(

    They know they fucked up, they even knew it was not going to work. Judges had ordered phone interceptions and the talks are becoming public. http://www.elmundo.es/cataluna/2017/10/27/59f36bec22601d3e5a8b45be.html [elmundo.es] Catalan judges in some cases. That is what happens when less than half want to drag the other half-plus into their dreamland and ignore laws above them and their own laws as they see fit. There lies the rub, their own laws too are no barrier for them. Neither is what others want to do, like business leaving them for greener pastures. Soon they will claim they are free of gravity.

    All the top people have been removed from their positions (measures started at midnight) and new elections will take place Dec 21st as the laws require at least 54 days between announcement and voting day (it's 55 IIRC in this case, earliest would be 20th). Normally it would had been a Sunday, but check the calendar yourself.

    The only thing working is that some people forgot (not all :P ) about the second accounting by central goverment party, the 3% commisions by independentists and the Pujol money in Andorra (past President has a lot to explain), the insider wars in two of the opposition parties, the crappy jobs generated (unemployment numbers back to ~2009, but quality and payment still pretty bad) or the increasing country debt.

    • (Score: 2) by Geotti on Saturday October 28 2017, @01:55AM (2 children)

      by Geotti (1146) on Saturday October 28 2017, @01:55AM (#588507) Journal

      Russia loves to stir the pot, of course.

      Right, and so does Serbia...

  • (Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Saturday October 28 2017, @03:45AM (2 children)

    by Phoenix666 (552) Subscriber Badge on Saturday October 28 2017, @03:45AM (#588550) Journal

    I don't have a dog in the fight. It doesn't matter to me personally what happens to Catalonia or Spain. The only feeling I have on anything there is faint antipathy for a country that couldn't rouse itself to caste off its dictator for 30 years. Very poor show.

    I did enjoy seeing the joy on the faces of the Catalonians at the news, though. So rare now to see that, it's golden. So I'll take it as the good news for the day.

    --
    Washington DC delenda est.
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @04:10AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @04:10AM (#588560)

      USA loved the bases. They still do, including the Moron one (no kidding). Go figure what would had happened if revolt took place instead of leaving him die. Probably something nasty like in a good number of America countries.

    • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @01:17PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @01:17PM (#588664)

      I understand you have lived through a dictatorship and successfully fought and won a revolution. Otherwise, I fail to see how you would be in a position to understand what it is, much less pass judgement.

      Spain fought a bloody, vicious civil war to try and avoid having the dictatorship imposed. The republic lasted 3 years before the National army prevailed over the Republican (legitimate) government and army. After, severe repression ensued. People were summarily executed, jailed and tortured. Everybody had already lost family, friends, neighbours. More than that, everybody had already fought family, friends, neighbours. It was a civil war, after all. After the war people would snitch on their neighbours, who would be abducted by actual government goons. Any kind of public demonstration or protest would be violently quashed by a heavily militarized police. Some of the most oppressed (nationalistic) regions resorted to terrorism later on (and the proceeded to keep doing it once democracy was restored, but that's another story). And remember, this is not the USA. People don't have a right to possess firearms. The only weapons such a rebellion could have used would be sticks, pitchforks, wrenches and the like. Against a full on army that had already won a war against another equipped army.

      Still some people fought. You don't know much about them because most were swiftly dealt with.

  • (Score: 2, Funny) by realDonaldTrump on Saturday October 28 2017, @04:23AM

    by realDonaldTrump (6614) Subscriber Badge on Saturday October 28 2017, @04:23AM (#588564) Homepage Journal

    The United States condemns the terror attack in Barcelona, Spain, and will do whatever is necessary to help. Study what General Pershing of the United States did to terrorists when caught. This is something you can read in the history books. Not a lot of history books, because they don’t like teaching it. General Pershing was having terrorism problems just like you do. And he caught 50 terrorists who did tremendous damage and killed many people. And he took the 50 terrorists, and he took 50 men, and he dipped 50 bullets in pig’s blood and had his soldiers execute 49 of the men. The 50th person, he said, "You go back to your people and you tell them what happened." And for 25 years there wasn’t a problem. There was no more Radical Islamic Terror for 35 years! You'd better start getting tough and you better start getting vigilant and using your heads, or you’re not going to have a country, folks. #SpainStrong [twitter.com] 🇺🇸

    --
    Text TRUMP to 88022 to join the 🚂 #TrumpTrain [facebook.com]
(1)