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posted by martyb on Tuesday January 05 2021, @07:53PM   Printer-friendly
from the so-it-has-come-to-this dept.

LA Paramedics Told Not To Transport Some Patients With Low Chance Of Survival:

The Los Angeles County Emergency Medical Services Agency issued a directive Monday that ambulance crews should only administer bottled oxygen to patients whose oxygen saturation levels fall below 90%.

In a separate memo from the county's EMS Agency, paramedic crews have been told not to transfer patients who experience cardiac arrest unless spontaneous circulation can be restored on the scene.

Both measures announced Monday, which were issued by the agency's medical director, Dr. Marianne Gausche-Hill, were taken in an attempt to get ahead of an expected surge to come following the winter holidays.

Many hospitals in the region "have reached a point of crisis and are having to make very tough decisions about patient care," Dr. Christina Ghaly, the LA County director of health services said at a briefing Monday.

[...] "We do not believe that we are yet seeing the cases that stemmed from the Christmas holiday," Ghaly added. "This, sadly, and the cases from the recent New Year's holiday, is still before us, and hospitals across the region are doing everything they can to prepare."

'We Are Not Abandoning Resuscitation': LA County Healthcare Leader Speaks Out After Memo Raises Concerns:

Los Angeles County hospitals are so inundated, officials said they're just trying to provide the best care they can for the people who need it.

The memo sent out on December 28 by the medical director of L.A. County's Emergency Medical Services agency, Dr. Marianne Gausche-Hill, addressed how first responders should treat stroke and heart attack patients, saying a patient should be treated at the scene first and have a pulse during resuscitation before transporting them to the hospital.

[...] The medical director of L.A. County's Emergency Services Agency, Dr. Marianne Gausche-Hill, assured CBS2 that officials continue to do all they can to save patients' lives at the scene and the hospital, as they always have.

"We are not abandoning resuscitation," Gausche-Hill said. "We are absolutely doing best practice resuscitation and that is do it in the field, do it right away... What we're asking is that — which is slightly different than before — is that we are emphasizing the fact that transporting these patients arrested leads to very poor outcomes.


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  • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 05 2021, @08:17PM (45 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 05 2021, @08:17PM (#1095166)

    Fair would be to ration care based on what you did to get sick.

    Prefer those who made an effort to stay well and were unlucky.
    Defer those who made an effort to flaunt the rules.

    Need a bed in the ICU? Just find footage of a guy with a bed having a great time at a maskless party.

    No matter how stupid folks are, I don't want to live in a world like that.
    Even if Darwin says we shouldn't, we have a responsibility to all.

    So ration according to need and expectation of a good outcome.

    I think I am ok with some community service and reparations for unnecesary actual, direct cost to the community, though.
    So write tickets for attending parties.
    Cost is $1 if all is well.
    Cost is your hospital bill if not.

    • (Score: 5, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 05 2021, @08:23PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 05 2021, @08:23PM (#1095173)

      Well I guess that's one way to implement a jobs program. Unemployed people can comb social media for evidence of wrongdoing. Pay them a bounty for every bed they free up.

    • (Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Tuesday January 05 2021, @08:50PM (23 children)

      by Grishnakh (2831) on Tuesday January 05 2021, @08:50PM (#1095188)

      Need a bed in the ICU? Just find footage of a guy with a bed having a great time at a maskless party.

      No matter how stupid folks are, I don't want to live in a world like that.
      Even if Darwin says we shouldn't, we have a responsibility to all.

      Why do we have as much responsibility to those who cause more problems for society than to those who did nothing exceptional or unwarranted to get sick?

      What about people in prison? If someone does something stupid (called a "crime"), as a society we apprehend these people, to prevent them from causing further harm to society, and we isolate them in "prisons". Bad actions carry negative consequences.

      If we're willing to throw people in prison as punishment for breaking rules, then why not do the same who flout the rules about mask-wearing and quarantining and social distancing? Why should people who break the rules get off scot-free, and worse, be allowed to murder other innocent people by taking up valuable healthcare/hospital resources they need?

      • (Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 05 2021, @09:05PM (13 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 05 2021, @09:05PM (#1095205)

        You are assuming that if you of superior morality (follow all your Leader's commandments), you will never get sick. If you do get sick though, obviously it was the devil (unmasked people) who gave it to you. This is the mental response to the mental crisis caused by believing the only people to catch COVID are those who deserve it.

        Newsflash: You can still catch the virus even while wearing a mask, and with no unclean people in sight. It's a respiratory virus. Even animals have been found to harbor the virus, and nobody had yet been able to make all the dogs, cats, squirrels, and bats wear masks.

        • (Score: 0, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 05 2021, @09:30PM (9 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 05 2021, @09:30PM (#1095228)

          Woooow you trumptarded magats are so dumb. Lovin' that "Leader's commandments" bit, as if people wearing masks are only doing so because Biden told them to and not because it is the advice of medical professionals O.o

          Newsflash: You are really stupid.

          • (Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 05 2021, @09:58PM (8 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 05 2021, @09:58PM (#1095244)

            Whatever pal. Respiratory viruses spread among the general population until enough people have caught it or have been vaccinated.

            Remember the goal was always to "Slow the spread", not "Stop the spread." Because the latter is not possible with little paper face masks. And if the masks really DID stop the virus, why are you worried about catching it if you always wear yours? Do admit it is WEAK SAUCE?

            • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 05 2021, @10:40PM (6 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 05 2021, @10:40PM (#1095284)

              You are some special kind of stupid when you are pointing out how the whole point is supposed to be "slow the spread" and this story is exactly about not enough resources because it spread too quickly.

              Funny how for over 100 years they've had to wear masks in the operating room. Who knew that after all this time that it we've been infringing upon the doctor and nurse's freedoms! Me, personally, would greatly prefer the nurse to not sneeze into my open chest cavity during surgery. Now I wonder what the similarities are between the two situations?

              As I said, you really are a special kind of stupid. Not only stupid, but very vocally proud that you're stupid. As my momma always said, . . .

              • (Score: 0, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 05 2021, @10:58PM (5 children)

                by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 05 2021, @10:58PM (#1095308)

                Masks in the operating room stop transfer of bacteria-laden saliva.
                Mask manufacturers specifically state they are not for the prevention of virus transmission, as viruses are many times smaller than bacteria. You have been educated fool.

                • (Score: 2, Informative) by epitaxial on Wednesday January 06 2021, @01:24AM (4 children)

                  by epitaxial (3165) on Wednesday January 06 2021, @01:24AM (#1095388)

                  You're a fucking moron if you think the virus itself flies through the air. The virus is contained in saliva or mucus which is easily stopped by a cloth mask.

                  • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 06 2021, @02:43AM (1 child)

                    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 06 2021, @02:43AM (#1095419)

                    To be fair COVID is airborn as well in the breath to some degree, however even if some virus particles get through the mask it drastically reduces the radius of virus loaded exhalations. This means the people around you are less likely to inhale the virus before it disperses enough to not be a major threat, especially if people maintain social distancing. The AC is just a rabid anti-masker

                    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 06 2021, @05:57PM

                      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 06 2021, @05:57PM (#1095686)

                      I'm not a rabid anti-masker. I am just not a rabid pro-masker. Can you comprehend the difference?

                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 06 2021, @08:24PM (1 child)

                    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 06 2021, @08:24PM (#1095770)

                    not it's not stopped by a cloth mask because you put your grubby little paws on the mask 400 times a day and then touch everything in sight like a 5 year old at the toy store. wake up, you retarded slave.

                    • (Score: 2) by epitaxial on Thursday January 07 2021, @05:31PM

                      by epitaxial (3165) on Thursday January 07 2021, @05:31PM (#1096539)

                      All of that is perfectly acceptable. But unlike you I can keep my fingers out of my mouth and nose.

            • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 05 2021, @11:33PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 05 2021, @11:33PM (#1095338)

              And if the masks really DID stop the virus, why are you worried about catching it if you always wear yours? Do admit it is WEAK SAUCE?

              That's why they teach the sheep that their own virus protection depends on a third person (you) wearing a comfort rag. That it is that evil other person (you) not wearing the rag who got you testing hot / getting sick.

              Otherwise they could think that their chances may be improved by doubling or tripling up on the rags.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 05 2021, @11:42PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 05 2021, @11:42PM (#1095345)

          Even animals have been found to harbor the virus, and nobody had yet been able to make all the dogs, cats, squirrels, and bats wear masks.

          Papayas too, I heard.

        • (Score: 5, Funny) by Tork on Wednesday January 06 2021, @12:35AM

          by Tork (3914) on Wednesday January 06 2021, @12:35AM (#1095368)

          Newsflash: You can still catch the virus even while wearing a mask, and with no unclean people in sight. It's a respiratory virus. Even animals have been found to harbor the virus, and nobody had yet been able to make all the dogs, cats, squirrels, and bats wear masks.

          I take it your brain doesn't support floating point math, just boolean, huh.

          --
          Slashdolt Logic: "24 year old jokes about sharks and lasers are +5, Funny." 💩
        • (Score: 2) by Magic Oddball on Wednesday January 06 2021, @01:38AM

          by Magic Oddball (3847) on Wednesday January 06 2021, @01:38AM (#1095392) Journal

          Even animals have been found to harbor the virus, and nobody had yet been able to make all the dogs, cats, squirrels, and bats wear masks.

          There's no reason to. Dogs & cats can't transmit the virus to humans in spite of being capable of catching it from us, and the solution with wild animals is just to stay away from them, which people should be doing anyway.

      • (Score: 3, Interesting) by HiThere on Tuesday January 05 2021, @09:05PM (8 children)

        by HiThere (866) on Tuesday January 05 2021, @09:05PM (#1095206) Journal

        Darwin didn't say that. He said that's the way species interactions happened in nature. The "Social Darwinist"s profoundly misrepresented what he said. Many of them intentionally, and for their own profit. Some, however, seem to have done it purely because they didn't like anyone who wasn't a wealthy white male of (pick a nation, there's lots of choices).

        P.S.: Even so, Darwin profoundly underestimated the complexity of the behavioral rules. So has everyone who's written anything accessible on the topic...and many who only wrote for a professional audience. The intersection of Game Theorists, Geneticists, and Ethologists is nearly a null set...and you probably need to add a few more specialties in there to cover the full range of interactions.

        --
        Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 05 2021, @09:55PM (7 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 05 2021, @09:55PM (#1095242)

          Social Darwinists aren't always racists, many just want an excuse for their narcissism and for punishing/justifying mistreatment of the homeless, poor, race, culture. Still basic bigotry, but not always race related.

          • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 06 2021, @01:47AM (2 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 06 2021, @01:47AM (#1095397)

            I say let the southerners inbreed themselves out of the gene pool.

            Or is that racist? "Southern" is a race, right?

            • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 06 2021, @02:47AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 06 2021, @02:47AM (#1095422)

              It is stupid prejudiced bigotry, you don't need to stop being angry at racist assholes but delving into your own type of hatred isn't much better especially if you make the same mistake of generalizing entire populations.

            • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 06 2021, @03:10AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 06 2021, @03:10AM (#1095438)

              There are only two races. Us and Them.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 06 2021, @04:05AM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 06 2021, @04:05AM (#1095457)

            They absolutely are. Social Darwinism is pretty closely related to Naziism and eugenics. People claiming otherwise are either ignorant or liars.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 06 2021, @08:26PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 06 2021, @08:26PM (#1095772)

              "nazi" is a Jew slur and there's nothing wrong with voluntary eugenics.

          • (Score: 2) by ChrisMaple on Wednesday January 06 2021, @05:37AM (1 child)

            by ChrisMaple (6964) on Wednesday January 06 2021, @05:37AM (#1095497)

            Have you even bothered to read any of Herbert Spencer's works, or are you just spouting what your fever-fantasy image of Social Darwinism is? It's not simple and it's not vile.

            • (Score: 2) by HiThere on Thursday January 07 2021, @01:34AM

              by HiThere (866) on Thursday January 07 2021, @01:34AM (#1096080) Journal

              You're correct, I've never bothered to read any of his works. I haven't read much on evolution written before 1960, and don't consider it likely to be worthwhile. So if you've found a "Social Darwinist" who isn't there because of some variety of bigotry, I'll accept your word for it. I only read Darwin because he was the source. Do remember that Darwin's evolution was before genetics was known outside of a monastery.

              P.S.: FWIW many people whose opinions I respect did not consider Spencer's interpretation to be sound even before the "new synthesis" put a solid foundation under "main-stream evolutionary theory". I do admit that prior to the new synthesis the theoretical interpretations of evolution were quite shaky, but the evidence hasn't changed (only expanded, deepened, and gotten richer). And his theories are reported to not follow the then existing evidence....so he must have had some other reason for them. You are free to impute any motives that you feel appropriate, but they need to be consistent with the selection of evidence that he made.

              --
              Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 05 2021, @10:02PM (11 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 05 2021, @10:02PM (#1095247)

      Need a bed in the ICU? Just find footage of a guy with a bed having a great time at a maskless party.

      Except it goes like this,

      1. parents tell kids to stay home
      2. kid sneaks outs to visit friends
      3. kid gets a cold
      4. everyone gets sick
      5. dad needs ICU bed.

      so, the dad is dead because the kid broke the rules?

      There is no need to ration anything if you did things properly like China. 85% of the people will follow the rules. Only need to worry about the 15% of the idiots out there that are spreading it. There will be another 25% of fucking idiots because they are fucking idiots, not because they ignore the rules.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 05 2021, @10:16PM (6 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 05 2021, @10:16PM (#1095263)

        Sure, let's do things properly.

        Just like China.

        First thing, we change the constitution to give the federal government vastly more direct power to interfere with people's daily lives, cost and circumstances be damned ...

        ... actually, let's just stop there until you figure that out. I want a draft amendment on here, and on change.org.

        Let's see it. Put up, or shut up.

        • (Score: 1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 05 2021, @10:45PM (3 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 05 2021, @10:45PM (#1095293)

          First thing, we change the constitution to give the federal government vastly more direct power to interfere with people's daily lives, cost and circumstances be damned ...

          You mean like overturning the results in a State election?

          Sending Federal troops into a State against the explicit objection of the governor?

          Calling for Martial Law and have the military "rerun" elections, but only in populous states won by a particular party?

          And you're fucking crying about being ASKED to cover your mouth and nose with a piece of cloth??? Let's hope you aren't one of those ignorant asshats who really believe that they are the real followers of the Constitution (but I sadly think you are that much of a dumbass).

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 06 2021, @12:47AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 06 2021, @12:47AM (#1095372)

            I'm not crying about anything. I work in food. I cover up.

            This isn't about that; it's about getting the US federal government the power to behave like the way that the chinese government does, which is purportedly the right way to do things.

            Let's see that draft amendment.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 06 2021, @08:34PM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 06 2021, @08:34PM (#1095779)

            i didn't vote for trump, but your disgusting party stole the election with fraudulent ballots and voting machine tampering/rigging. It's time to let brand America go. There is no America anymore. The America you remember was White America. It's success so far was due to it's White super majority. As the white population dwindles, so does "America's" success. Whites need to wake up and realize they have been brainwashed into self destruction by the Jews and selfish race-traitor whites. They are shipping in non-whites into every white majority country to destroy the white race once and for all. Their murder of 100+ million in WWI and WWII was just one battle in the ongoing ancient blood feud.

            • (Score: 3, Informative) by HiThere on Thursday January 07 2021, @01:44AM

              by HiThere (866) on Thursday January 07 2021, @01:44AM (#1096087) Journal

              On what evidence do you believe that? Hearsay is not evidence. Neither is some anonymous poster on the web. (And I won't accept the word of Trump for anything. He lies more often than he speaks.)

              I generally accept the word of judges when speaking ex-officio about matters of fact rather than judgements of law. And I generally accept that those are reported with "reasonable accuracy". Also lawyers when speaking under oath in court (though not at a press conference).

              WRT civil service officials I tend to be a bit skeptical. In my experience they generally try to do their job, but often slack off a bit, and will say what they feel they need to to CYA. So more reliable than politicians or used car salesmen...but definitely need back-up facts.

              P.S.: That Texas official still hasn't paid over that million dollar reward for finding fraudulent votes, even though they were found. Too bad the fraudulent votes were in favor of Trump.

              --
              Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 05 2021, @11:35PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 05 2021, @11:35PM (#1095342)

          Don't forget sentencing people to prison for inciting panic in people with "fake news" about the virus.

          Yeah, China is so great!

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 06 2021, @02:50AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 06 2021, @02:50AM (#1095423)

            Inciting panic? Aww, did someone go without toilet paper for a few days?

      • (Score: 2) by driverless on Tuesday January 05 2021, @11:32PM (2 children)

        by driverless (4770) on Tuesday January 05 2021, @11:32PM (#1095336)

        There is no need to ration anything if you did things properly like China. 85% of the people will follow the rules.

        Not in the US they won't, because it's been turned into a cult loyalty issue. I know the Russians weren't directly responsible for this, but man, if I was Russian and the US hadn't already done it to themselves I'd be making this my #1 priority.

        In the meantime, Trump is off to play golf in Scotland. I guess the more usual practice of playing the fiddle was beyond him.

        • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 06 2021, @01:54AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 06 2021, @01:54AM (#1095400)

          No he's not. They told him to fuck off; his golf isn't "essential". Theydon't want him in Scotland [nytimes.com], they don't want him in Florida [nytimes.com], and they sure as hell don't want him in New York.

          Actually, maybe he should go to New York and try his proposed 5th Ave stunt. Without the Secret Service protecting him. Yeah, that's probably what he should do.

        • (Score: 2) by HiThere on Thursday January 07 2021, @01:48AM

          by HiThere (866) on Thursday January 07 2021, @01:48AM (#1096094) Journal

          I'm not sure. I suspect Trump of being, at least indirectly, a Russian agent. I suspect that he owes a bunch of money to companies controlled by Putin, and has been trying to get those debts cancelled. But I admit this is only suspicion. I'm not enough of an accountant to be certain even if I had the paperwork in hand. (It may have involved Deutsche Bank AG. There's lots of links if you start searching.)

          --
          Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
      • (Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday January 06 2021, @12:54AM

        by Phoenix666 (552) on Wednesday January 06 2021, @12:54AM (#1095376) Journal

        There is no need to ration anything if you did things properly like China. 85% of the people will follow the rules.

        You have clearly never been to China. Chinese do not obey stop lights unless there's a soldier standing there with an automatic rifle.

        Please don't peddle ignorance to make a rhetorical point.

        --
        Washington DC delenda est.
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 05 2021, @10:12PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 05 2021, @10:12PM (#1095260)

      I would also like to implement some sort of rationing system. Instead of your proposed system that punishes young and healthy, I would isntead prioritize the beds based on how well a person upkeeps their body. Have some sort of a number that is the product of your BMI and Cholesterol.

      Now when was the last time you had a cheeseburger, you fat fuck?

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 05 2021, @11:28PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 05 2021, @11:28PM (#1095332)

      Need a bed in the ICU? Just find footage of a guy with a bed having a great time at a maskless party.

      Or of nurses dancing on Tiktok because they are so un-busy?

    • (Score: 1, Flamebait) by TheGratefulNet on Wednesday January 06 2021, @12:29AM (5 children)

      by TheGratefulNet (659) on Wednesday January 06 2021, @12:29AM (#1095367)

      take the names of all who attend trump 'rallies'.

      they are now the last on the list for any covid care and they are possibly not on the list for the vaccine.

      the plague rats are serious; we need to be serious too, if we are to survive this.

      there are people who actively do all they can to ruin things for the rest of us.

      deny them all care.

      heartless? I have less empathy this year than I did last year. wonder why....

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 06 2021, @02:55AM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 06 2021, @02:55AM (#1095427)

        Does your ability to empathise with other humans extend so far to allow you to realise that the people attending Trump 'rallies' (your quotes) aren't counting on the vaccine gods needing to deliver them from any harm the virus demon rationally will do to them?

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 06 2021, @06:07PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 06 2021, @06:07PM (#1095691)

        OK, Grish! By your own order, you would deny the Democrat politicians, BLM, a lot of militant people of color and their dopey white "allies" (teachers, social workers, etc.) any medical access because THEY were the very first to have mass rallies in open disregard of distancing mandates. Some medical associations gave them a WAIVER because "racism" is a WORSE health epidemic than coronavirus!

        Did you completely blank that out of your mind already, you hateful bastard?

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 06 2021, @06:09PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 06 2021, @06:09PM (#1095693)

          nomsg

      • (Score: 2) by HiThere on Thursday January 07 2021, @01:52AM

        by HiThere (866) on Thursday January 07 2021, @01:52AM (#1096097) Journal

        Most of those are young enough to have an asymptomatic case. That means they can spread it without suffering any quick negative effects. Over a long period of time many of them will suffer impaired health, but it will probably be long enough after they clear the virus that they'll never make the connection. https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200811/asymptomatic-covid-silent-but-maybe-not-harmless [webmd.com]

        --
        Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
  • (Score: 5, Funny) by SomeGuy on Tuesday January 05 2021, @08:28PM (2 children)

    by SomeGuy (5632) on Tuesday January 05 2021, @08:28PM (#1095174)

    Somewhere President Skroob leans back and inhales deeply from a freshly opened can of Perri-Air.

    • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Tuesday January 05 2021, @10:21PM (1 child)

      by fustakrakich (6150) on Tuesday January 05 2021, @10:21PM (#1095264) Journal

      Go to Wisconsin and buy real natural Dairy-Air

      --
      La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
      • (Score: 2) by Gaaark on Wednesday January 06 2021, @12:04AM

        by Gaaark (41) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday January 06 2021, @12:04AM (#1095352) Journal

        OH NO! Now you're going to start a flame war about people saying Chocolate Dairy-Air matters vs. All Dairy-Air matters!

        All i seem to be able to get is the "Shart Dairy-AirTM" brand, though... :(

        :)

        --
        --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by sea on Tuesday January 05 2021, @08:32PM (60 children)

    by sea (86) on Tuesday January 05 2021, @08:32PM (#1095180) Homepage Journal

    Can someone explain to me why, after flattening the curve and buying time for *ten months*, nobody thought to use that time to expand hospitals, hire more hospital staff, mass-manufacture ventilators and oxygen tanks, and have 10x the capacity they'd need in the worst case?

    I mean, come on. I'm just an ordinary guy and even I have enough food in my cupboard for 3 months. Always have more capacity than you need. It seems to me like the hospitals just assumed they could scrape by with whatever they had at hand.

    All those months of relative calm, wasted. They could have tripled hospital capacity in that time.

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by fadrian on Tuesday January 05 2021, @08:36PM (2 children)

      by fadrian (3194) on Tuesday January 05 2021, @08:36PM (#1095182) Homepage

      Can someone explain to me why, after flattening the curve and buying time for *ten months*, nobody thought to use that time to expand hospitals, hire more hospital staff, mass-manufacture ventilators and oxygen tanks, and have 10x the capacity they'd need in the worst case?

      Because in This Capitalist Society (TM), with its JIT mindset, excess inventory counts against you.

      --
      That is all.
      • (Score: 2) by RS3 on Tuesday January 05 2021, @09:02PM

        by RS3 (6367) on Tuesday January 05 2021, @09:02PM (#1095203)

        Because in This Capitalist Society (TM), with its JIT mindset, excess inventory counts against you.

        You left out the excess of MBAs. :-} Half kidding.

        To be fair, many things deteriorate in storage, often due to improper storage, including incompetence of the people in charge of the storage. I'm partially thinking about the hundreds (thousands?) of ventilators the govt. had stockpiled. When they were brought out last spring, many (most?) didn't work.

        O2 tanks should last effectively forever in a warehouse. Maybe a bit dangerous to keep, but it's possible to store them safely when someone cares to.

        And it's pretty easy to generate, concentrate, or centrifugally separate oxygen. But as you point out, existing generation infrastructure is likely running at near non-pandemic JIT capacity.

      • (Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 05 2021, @09:05PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 05 2021, @09:05PM (#1095207)

        Right, because that's precisely how LA County runs things.

        Total dedication to JIT management and ultra-lean processes at every step of government and quasi-government organisations.

        Thanks, I needed that laugh.

    • (Score: 2) by Immerman on Tuesday January 05 2021, @08:48PM (4 children)

      by Immerman (3985) on Tuesday January 05 2021, @08:48PM (#1095187)

      Who pays for that excess inventory that never gets used? It's coming out of somebody's pocket, probably stockholders and maybe even executive bonuses. What incentive would anyone with the power to make such a decision have to do so?

      The government could have stepped in and paid for it to spread the pain around - except that the head executive has been steadfastly refused to acknowledge the threat, and actively hamstrung the organizations that should be organizing such a response, and his political party has been more interested in passing loyalty tests than doing their damned job.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 05 2021, @10:10PM (3 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 05 2021, @10:10PM (#1095258)

        ... you mean Trump, right?

        The guy who's responsible for LA County directly ... no, wait, he's not. In fact, he's a couple of links of the chain removed.

        But he could have helped!

        Wait, he sent a hospital ship that was never used...

        But his party tripped it all up!

        The party that's not in charge of anything in spitting distance of LA County, let alone its healthcare....

        Dude, find a better target for poo flinging. I hear german tourists work nicely.

        • (Score: 2) by Immerman on Wednesday January 06 2021, @01:57AM

          by Immerman (3985) on Wednesday January 06 2021, @01:57AM (#1095403)

          There's plenty of blame to spread around, but a great deal of leadership happens by example.

          If someone isn't willing to take responsibility for the people who follow their lead, they shouldn't be allowed in a leadership position.

        • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Tork on Wednesday January 06 2021, @04:15AM (1 child)

          by Tork (3914) on Wednesday January 06 2021, @04:15AM (#1095459)

          The party that's not in charge of anything in spitting distance of LA County, let alone its healthcare....

          Trump intentionally skipped repeated warnings and played down the virus, this soaked up a bunch of valuable lead-up time for every state/county/city etc. He made a thing about not wearing a mask and now the fashionable thing to do is get into groups of people, maskless, and storm shops that have a mask policy. We already know that won't end well. He threatened to withhold virus aid from numerous places for a multitude of reasons, all petty. He did not lock down travel from China in a meaningful way, t'was just theater. He kept infected cruise ships away to artificially keep the numbers down. Oh and he pushed a 'Covid cure' that... wasn't. Oh and we may have trouble getting enough people in the USA vaccinated because of lack of trust. He lied. A LOT. The divisiveness of his bullshit has us doing things like bringing guns to the capital cos haircuts are a constitutionally protected right, but NOT carrying that same zeal ahead to deal with police brutality against American Citizens. The Trump Administration's sabotage of the Postal System, all fueled by fears that main-in votes would secure Biden's victory (give them credit. they were right on that one...), endangered Americans who rely on parcel deliveries. The fallout from that forced more in-person voting to happen in the middle of a fucking pandemic. He pushed for reopening when we weren't ready, putting YOU in danger. He held maskless rallies. Trump himself, the man the American Government considers its highest priority to protect, came down with it as well as his family, his staffers, his cohorts, a bunch of generals at the Pentagon.... Oh and what's he doing right now? Well Biden's actually doing work on the COVID front right now, meanwhile Trump's doing rallies to support the GOP in the Senate and making illegal phone calls to turn the election in his favor. Now to be fair he did demand a higher payout for the Stimulus... but that was contingent on non-public-safety shit like keeping names of the runners up in the Civil War emblazened on some of our glorious military facilities, oh and retaliation against social media for not spreading the previously mentioned lies. We are finally getting a stimulus ... months overdue and of a horribly insufficient amount. Now we can quibble about who's really at fault for that, and maybe you'd even defeat me in that battle, but you won't be walking away saying: "That demonstrates the Trump Administration's wonderful leadership during the pandemic!"

          I have to ask, why don't you have at least a little skepticism with the Trump Administration, especially after Conway referred to 'COVID-19' as the 19th mutation of the virus? I mean she was either wrong (not an encouraging sign when speaking on behalf of the government....) or she was intentionally mis-speaking to turn you against the WHO (ummm... making YOU stupider so you'll hate the WH's enemies...?) ... that wasn't a red flag? Him getting his son sick, THAT didn't make you want to look a lil more deeply into it? The priority of the supreme court pick over gov't assistance from the pandemic, THAT didn't make you question the WH's official word? I'm just curious cos "nuh uh, hospital ship!" never had a lot of range even in the most optimistic of puffery.

          --
          Slashdolt Logic: "24 year old jokes about sharks and lasers are +5, Funny." 💩
          • (Score: 2) by ChrisMaple on Wednesday January 06 2021, @05:43AM

            by ChrisMaple (6964) on Wednesday January 06 2021, @05:43AM (#1095500)

            now the fashionable thing to do is get into groups of people, maskless, and storm shops that have a mask policy

            I've never heard of that. It must be a California phenomenon, where idiocy is treasured.

    • (Score: 5, Interesting) by RS3 on Tuesday January 05 2021, @08:53PM (6 children)

      by RS3 (6367) on Tuesday January 05 2021, @08:53PM (#1095191)

      I've wondered the same thing. In fact, I simply wanted to help, in any way possible, and I can't find any job openings or volunteer openings or anything.

      A local medical equipment company has been running an ad for an equipment tech. They do mostly ventilators- sell, rent, repair. I'm pretty sure I remember reading about critical shortages of ventilators, oh say last March, April, May, etc. Long story short- got phone interview, maybe July / August, and was rejected because "I'm overqualified". What? I even asked the guy- I thought ventilators were in shortage and great demand. No response. What? Was the news lying? Maybe, there were some shortages in a few places, but the news media blew it up as if it was nationwide? Maybe it was, but the situation got rectified quickly? Who know- the news rarely follows up on its own stories.

      Last spring, not far from my area, a recently closed school was converted into a field hospital by the Army Core of Engineers. Huge effort and money spent. It was NEVER used (except by crickets).

      A local hospital has an uptick in COVID patients. Most of their job openings require schooling, certs, experience (RNs, patient techs, etc.), but one position is basically a patient watcher. Yes, you just sit and watch the patient and call for help if they go nuts (not just COVID). They have a huge number of such openings. I called, and despite the huge need, they don't want to hire anyone on a temporary basis. "Too much investment in training." What??? "Open your eyes. Watch the patient. Press this button if there's a problem". Okay, you're trained now.

      I'll drive vaccine delivery vans, whatever, but can't find any way to get in to help. I've asked doctors and other health care workers and officials I know and nobody knows anything. Not sure who to blame, but by now, we still don't have a plan? It's easy enough to blame the govt, and they certainly could do more. But I'm reminded of the Amish, and how they very quickly and cohesively come together to help each other and organize and move on whatever needs to be done. Why can't we do that? Maybe we need to start electing the Amish. Kidding, but I can't help but wonder if we could at least learn from their cooperative society.

      • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Grishnakh on Tuesday January 05 2021, @09:01PM (2 children)

        by Grishnakh (2831) on Tuesday January 05 2021, @09:01PM (#1095202)

        Kidding, but I can't help but wonder if we could at least learn from their cooperative society

        You don't need to look at religious nuts who refuse modern technology to see a good example of a cooperative society. You just need to look outside the US borders; Asian nations in particular are good at this. Western European nations also do a better job of this.

        Basically, this is a cultural problem, and this pandemic has shown just how ill-equipped America's "fuck you, I got mine" society is to handle common threats like this. I don't see any way of fixing it before it collapses.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 05 2021, @09:23PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 05 2021, @09:23PM (#1095220)

          Oh Jeez, you're not better than Americans. Go take your "little brother" competition complex somewhere else.

        • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 05 2021, @09:37PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 05 2021, @09:37PM (#1095233)

          You don't need to look at religious nuts who refuse modern technology

          No need to mischaracterize the Amish that way. Visit some. Work with some. You'll find they have and use "modern technology". They shun being dependent on larger society- you know, the one you rightly railed against. If you got to know some you'll find they're not so "religious" as you think. They're just much better at being cohesive, like the Asians, Europeans, and many others. They get criticized for being too separatist, but I can't blame them.

          America is, almost by definition and certainly its founding a collection of independent, sometimes fiercely so, people. Even our name illustrates it. When push comes to shove, we will cooperate. IMHO, the problem is too much BS happening. Why are there anti-maskers? Because there's so much general BS in the news media that nobody quite knows what to believe. Some believe masks work (I wear them), some think it's all lies. Find me a clean clear solid reliable news source. No question that the year leading up to election has greatly messed up everyone and everything in the news / media.

          I think, hope at least, that most Americans will "do the right thing" when necessary.

      • (Score: 4, Informative) by HiThere on Tuesday January 05 2021, @09:18PM (2 children)

        by HiThere (866) on Tuesday January 05 2021, @09:18PM (#1095217) Journal

        There was a huge shortage of ventilators. Then they found that most people that they put on a ventilator died there, so they started considering them REALLY last resort choices.

        IIUC, there's still a shortage of ventilators, but funds are being used to buy other equipment that's less likely to result in dead patients. See e.g.: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0242651 [plos.org]

        --
        Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
        • (Score: 2) by RS3 on Tuesday January 05 2021, @10:05PM (1 child)

          by RS3 (6367) on Tuesday January 05 2021, @10:05PM (#1095253)

          Having some interest in and knowledge about medicine, I found those outcomes to make sense (sadly). IIUC, the ventilators were causing more lung tissue damage and exacerbating the whole deterioration process.

          FYL (from your link):

          many of these reports come from hospitals that were experiencing a major surge in patient volumes and were forced to use suboptimal equipment and staffing models that varied considerably from typical practice

          Not sure what that means but it doesn't give me the warm fuzzies about our medical system.

          Also, in UK they started using a steroid (dexamethasone) to treat COVID patients and had much better outcomes. Speculating, but AFAIK steroids are contraindicated in infectious diseases because they suppress the immune system. But in cases where severe inflammation is causing even more problems, they can be life-saving. Which makes sense to me, and when I heard of it I was surprised they didn't do that sooner.

          BTW, thank you for that link. I'll read it in more detail.

          • (Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Wednesday January 06 2021, @01:00PM

            by hendrikboom (1125) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday January 06 2021, @01:00PM (#1095595) Homepage Journal

            Perhaps because it took a while to discover that severe inflammation was causing even more problems.

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Grishnakh on Tuesday January 05 2021, @08:57PM (24 children)

      by Grishnakh (2831) on Tuesday January 05 2021, @08:57PM (#1095197)

      Can someone explain to me why, after flattening the curve and buying time for *ten months*, nobody thought to use that time to expand hospitals, hire more hospital staff, mass-manufacture ventilators and oxygen tanks, and have 10x the capacity they'd need in the worst case?

      Because we're not China, that's why.

      1. Expand hospitals: where do you think the money for this is going to come from? Hospitals in this country are not owned by the State, they're all privately-owned (usually by healthcare corporations like Kaiser, HCA, and also by various religious corporations). The only exceptions are military and VA hospitals. If you want the government to build new hospitals, then we need a complete revamp of the healthcare system in this country so that we have government-owned hospitals for non-military people.

      2. Hire more hospital staff: Where exactly do you think these staff are going to come from? Cuba? You can't just grab some person off the street and stick them in a 3-month training program and suddenly have a new ICU doctor or nurse. It takes *years* to get through both MD and RN programs. Even an LPN certification takes 2 years.

      3. Ventilators and oxygen tanks: Ventilators aren't much good if you don't have an ICU to use them in, which takes us back to point #1. The ventilators don't seem to be that much of a problem anyway, it's everything else. If you've burned out all your doctors and nurses, who's going to operate the ventilators?

      All those months of relative calm, wasted. They could have tripled hospital capacity in that time.

      Again, how, exactly? This is not China: we can't just build state-owned hospitals in 10 days here. This is also not the UK with a nationalized health system. You (Americans) didn't want "socialized medicine", you've voted against it every opportunity you got, so this is what you get. Suck it up and stop whining.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 05 2021, @09:14PM (6 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 05 2021, @09:14PM (#1095215)

        In the spring, President Trump provided Navy hospital ships to NYC and LA. There was no need for them it turned out as almost nobody used their services. If LA truly needs a hospital ship now, it can be sent back.

        https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/us-navy-hospital-ship-usns-mercy-stops-receiving-patients-2020-5%3famp [google.com]

        I also don't know why you praise a communist one-party state as such a model to be followed compared to America. I sure don't hope you have swallowed their own reporting of COVID figures or their flawless response to it. That's pure state propaganda from the country that wants you to forget they started the worldwide coronavirus spread.

        • (Score: 2) by HiThere on Tuesday January 05 2021, @09:26PM (5 children)

          by HiThere (866) on Tuesday January 05 2021, @09:26PM (#1095224) Journal

          You don't seem to understand WHY there was no need for the hospital ship. It wasn't equipped to deal with the problem. It still isn't. Hospital ships are mainly for dealing with physically injured, with few facilities for anything else. And if one COVID case got on board the entire thing would need to be evacuated. It's the wrong answer to this problem. Emergency hospitals of the kind the British are calling Nightingale would be more appropriate, and can be thrown together quickly. But where do you get the people to staff them? The supplies?

          Admittedly rationing oxygen seems to say "poor planning", as I've seen a medical oxygen generator that can be plugged into the wall and condense it out of the air, but there are likely problems involved that I don't understand even enough to consider. (E.g. perhaps that "oxygen generator" didn't produce oxygen of the required purity...whatever that might mean.)

          --
          Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
          • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 05 2021, @10:23PM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 05 2021, @10:23PM (#1095267)

            It's available for substitution, if nothing else. COVID? Hospital. Car crash? Hospital ship. COVID? Hospital. Stab wound from gang violence? Hospital ship. COVID? Hospital. .... you starting to see how this works?

            If they needed more medical staff, more orderlies, more hands-on grunts who will do what they're told and know how to clean a room? The Navy would be happy to provide them by the hundred, and instruct them in key roles.

            But nooooo ...

            • (Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Wednesday January 06 2021, @05:46PM

              by Grishnakh (2831) on Wednesday January 06 2021, @05:46PM (#1095678)

              If they needed more medical staff, more orderlies, more hands-on grunts

              That's not the problem. They need more doctors and nurses. And while the military has a small supply of those (who are mostly already busy with their normal work), it's certainly not enough to deal with the shortages nationwide. You can't just grab some guy off the street and make him a doctor or nurse; it takes *years* of education and training.

          • (Score: 4, Informative) by RS3 on Tuesday January 05 2021, @10:27PM (2 children)

            by RS3 (6367) on Tuesday January 05 2021, @10:27PM (#1095270)

            The oxygen "generators" (in spite of their name, they don't generate, they separate) come in several output flow ranges, and from what I've seen (spending huge time in hospitals with my dying parents), the standard ones that plug into standard wall outlet power can't quite produce enough oxygen for the highest requirement patients.

            That said, if you're out of O2, or don't have enough and need to ration it, you could use some from the wall O2 outlet they have in hospitals (or a tank), and add the oxygen "generator" output to get the needed flow.

            I'm not sure of the purity, but the medical requirements are, and the specs say, they're in the 90-95% range, so it's pretty good.

            IIRC, the bigger (and much noisier) units make 10 LPM. That's liters per minute for all of you outside of the US who would be in disbelief that the US uses metric units (when we feel like it! :) There are smaller units that do like 3 LPM, and 5 LPM.

            To put it all in perspective, if you've ever seen someone carting around an oxygen tank, say 0.6 M x 10 CM diameter, at 10 LPM that tank will empty in well under an hour. More like minutes.

            The larger green tanks you may see being used for welding, for example, are typically 80 cubic foot capacity, so roughly 2,300 liters. So at 10 LPM, you'd have ~3.8 hours of oxygen. So you can see it can be a lot of oxygen and tank carting, and the critically ill patients need more than 10 LPM.

            • (Score: 3, Informative) by RS3 on Wednesday January 06 2021, @12:38AM (1 child)

              by RS3 (6367) on Wednesday January 06 2021, @12:38AM (#1095370)

              Correction: "generator" should say "concentrator", as in oxygen concentrator, which is a good description of what they do, and here's more for nerds like me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_concentrator [wikipedia.org]

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 07 2021, @12:21PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 07 2021, @12:21PM (#1096420)

                Oooh - thanks for the correction and the link.

      • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Tuesday January 05 2021, @10:45PM (14 children)

        by fustakrakich (6150) on Tuesday January 05 2021, @10:45PM (#1095290) Journal

        Expand hospitals: where do you think the money for this is going to come from?

        Money is a bullshit issue. The fed is giving Wall Street almost a trillion a month. Just divert that river, and we'll have thousands of very nice hospitals with well paid employees, and beluga caviar on the finest china.

        --
        La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 06 2021, @02:14AM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 06 2021, @02:14AM (#1095411)

          The fed is giving Wall Street almost a trillion a month.

          Citation please.

          I'm betting this is exactly like the other time you opened your mouth about finance and showed that you thought the treasury market was wall street, when in reality it was you being too stupid to understand that buying back treasury's was simply the government repaying part of the debt that was coming due.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 06 2021, @02:21AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 06 2021, @02:21AM (#1095412)

            Believe what you wish. If you're making money from it, more power to ya! Go ahead, I say, join the circus and make a bundle, just know when to cash out and convert to another currency.

            Whatever, all your cash shortages are due to this one thing. I would expect you to be in denial as long as you're not hurting personally.

        • (Score: 2) by Username on Wednesday January 06 2021, @02:59AM (1 child)

          by Username (4557) on Wednesday January 06 2021, @02:59AM (#1095432)

          Just divert that river, and we'll have thousands of very nice hospitals with well paid employees, and beluga caviar on the finest china.

          That's not how subsidising works. If we do divert it, they will just beg for more since they know they will get it. You will get even more photos of lines and ques with people begging for care while doctors still dine on caviar.

          • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Wednesday January 06 2021, @04:15AM

            by fustakrakich (6150) on Wednesday January 06 2021, @04:15AM (#1095460) Journal

            There's enough money there (they stopped counting) to quarantine and treat the entire population in their own private suites, with monitors for off track betting, and caviar for all!

            --
            La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
        • (Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Wednesday January 06 2021, @05:43PM (9 children)

          by Grishnakh (2831) on Wednesday January 06 2021, @05:43PM (#1095677)

          Ok, then how exactly do you think more hospitals will get built with federal money?

          In case you forgot, they've tried this several times with broadband: give lots of money to the cablecos, with the promise that it'll result in lots of broadband expansion, and what happens? The ISPs just pocket the cash and don't build anything.

          You can't have the government just giving money to companies with the vague promise that something useful will happen with it. It never works. If you want actual results, you need ironclad contracts, which is how "government contractors" work. But that's a whole industry of companies that specialize in contracting with the government (companies like Lockheed-Martin, for instance, plus many many others around the Beltway). There's no precedent for such a thing with healthcare corporations that are not already contractors.

          Finally, where are you going to find all these "well paid employees"? You think you're just going to hire qualified doctors and nurses off the street? I don't care how much money you throw at the problem; you can't just will qualified employees into existence. You sound like someone who thinks you can gestate a baby in 1 month by putting 9 women to work on the problem.

          • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Wednesday January 06 2021, @05:55PM (8 children)

            by fustakrakich (6150) on Wednesday January 06 2021, @05:55PM (#1095683) Journal

            Government oversight is our responsibility. It's up to us to employ competent people and to discharge the incompetent with the opportunity we are granted every two years. If we can't be bothered, the bullshit will continue.

            --
            La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
            • (Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Thursday January 07 2021, @02:07AM (7 children)

              by Grishnakh (2831) on Thursday January 07 2021, @02:07AM (#1096112)

              Yes, every nation gets the government it deserves.

              But I don't see how that has anything to do with this discussion. You still haven't addressed my point about the lack of qualified staff. No, you can't make doctors in 3 months. I don't care how competent a government is; it's not possible to create highly trained people overnight, no matter how much money you have.

              • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Thursday January 07 2021, @02:40AM (6 children)

                by fustakrakich (6150) on Thursday January 07 2021, @02:40AM (#1096133) Journal

                We are supposed to seek out and appoint people to make those arrangements, make the government serve, use that money for massive training efforts and other infrastructure, so what if you don't have them immediately, they are there for the future. Chronic shortages of anything is a crime. It should not happen in a prosperous society. So now, let's correct the problem, by redirecting all that fed money to where it is needed. Giving it to Wall Street only buys hookers and coke.

                --
                La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
                • (Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Thursday January 07 2021, @06:23AM (5 children)

                  by Grishnakh (2831) on Thursday January 07 2021, @06:23AM (#1096312)

                  Again, I really don't care how much money you throw at it, you simply cannot train people to be doctors and nurses in a few months. It takes years. It's just like making a baby: even if you take all the money of Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, and Jeff Bezos combined, it will still take 9 months, no matter what. Sure, you could train some people to be nurses' aides, but that's only going to go so far: you have to have real doctors and nurses, and they can only service so many patients at a time, even with some extra less-trained help.

                  And finally, it's not the government's job to train doctors. We have a system of mostly privately-owned healthcare companies, and various universities and medical schools that have limited enrollment, so we can only make so many new doctors and nurses at a time, and it just isn't something the federal government has any control over. This isn't Cuba, nor is it the UK, or even Canada. What you're advocating is for this country to become more like one of those countries, and Americans do not want that (even if it would work much better, since we have by far the highest cost for care in the world (including as a percentage of GDP), but not great care for most of the population). Even in the middle of a terrible pandemic, Americans have clearly spoken at the voting booth that they do not want "socialism" (while Biden won the Presidential election, the Democrats (who aren't even socialist except for a few) **lost** seats in the House). There's just not anywhere near enough political will in this country to make the kind of changes you're advocating.

                  • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Thursday January 07 2021, @07:04AM (4 children)

                    by fustakrakich (6150) on Thursday January 07 2021, @07:04AM (#1096325) Journal

                    Americans have clearly spoken at the voting booth

                    Exactly, and that is why we have shortages and rationing. A mere observation. There is no mystery.

                    --
                    La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
                    • (Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Thursday January 07 2021, @04:20PM (3 children)

                      by Grishnakh (2831) on Thursday January 07 2021, @04:20PM (#1096504)

                      We're getting the government that we voted for, and that we deserve.

                      • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Thursday January 07 2021, @05:26PM (2 children)

                        by fustakrakich (6150) on Thursday January 07 2021, @05:26PM (#1096537) Journal

                        That's all I ever said. But in answer to your original question, if you're looking for the money, you know where it is, and they are printing it like there's an infinite supply. So, people just have to vote on where it goes. And they just voted to send more trillions to Wall Street instead of disaster relief. The money issue is as plain as day, plenty there, just being misspent on hookers and coke.

                        --
                        La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
                        • (Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Thursday January 07 2021, @07:41PM (1 child)

                          by Grishnakh (2831) on Thursday January 07 2021, @07:41PM (#1096636)

                          Yes, but that's the way this country rolls. We don't want "socialism", so instead of having a well-managed healthcare system like those in UK or Germany (which can be more centralized like the UK's, or more public/private partnership like Germany), where we really could build more hospitals and push more education/training programs to increase the number of healthcare professionals (which would still take a lot of time, but at least it'd prepare us for the next pandemic), we rely on "The Holy Invisible Hand" to run things and then throw money at Wall Street when things aren't working.

                          I just don't see any way of fixing this when half our country is violently (and I mean that word literally, based on what we saw yesterday) opposed to anything that could be called "socialism", but is perfectly happy to hand out money to Wall Street.

                          • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Thursday January 07 2021, @08:03PM

                            by fustakrakich (6150) on Thursday January 07 2021, @08:03PM (#1096654) Journal

                            Yes, but that's the way this country rolls.

                            And that is the problem, not the money, we just create barriers to access.

                            --
                            La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 06 2021, @12:23AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 06 2021, @12:23AM (#1095365)

        Wrong.
        https://www.nychealthandhospitals.org/ [nychealthandhospitals.org]
        Publicly owned.
        https://omh.ny.gov/ [ny.gov]
        Runs hospital like systems.
        University Hospital Systems.
        https://www.numc.edu/ [numc.edu]
        County Owned and Staffed.

      • (Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday January 06 2021, @09:30PM

        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday January 06 2021, @09:30PM (#1095818) Journal

        Expand hospitals: where do you think the money for this is going to come from? Hospitals in this country are not owned by the State, they're all privately-owned

        If you're speaking of the US, there are plenty of state-owned hospitals too. And being private or public doesn't magically prepare you for things you don't bother to prepare for. Trillions of public funds have been burned over the past 9 or so months. That seems a good place to start to look for that money.

        Hire more hospital staff: Where exactly do you think these staff are going to come from? Cuba? You can't just grab some person off the street and stick them in a 3-month training program and suddenly have a new ICU doctor or nurse.

        Good idea actually. Yes, grab people off the street (or in other words, accept volunteers), train them for three months, and get something far better than nothing.

        Ventilators and oxygen tanks: Ventilators aren't much good if you don't have an ICU to use them in, which takes us back to point #1. The ventilators don't seem to be that much of a problem anyway, it's everything else. If you've burned out all your doctors and nurses, who's going to operate the ventilators?

        Yet another reason to get that additional staff that you say is impossible to get.

        Again, how, exactly? This is not China: we can't just build state-owned hospitals in 10 days here. This is also not the UK with a nationalized health system. You (Americans) didn't want "socialized medicine", you've voted against it every opportunity you got, so this is what you get. Suck it up and stop whining.

        Actually, the US already did that [usatoday.com].

        The Army Corps of Engineers and other agencies set up a 970-bed care center at the TCF Center, a 350,000-square-foot convention center in Detroit. The installation took nine days, "one of the fastest builds in the country," Michelle Grinnell of Michigan Economic Development told USA TODAY.

        The Detroit center "will receive COVID-19 patients from other southeast Michigan acute care hospitals at least 48 hours after being admitted as an inpatient," Grinnell said. The center won't have an intensive care unit or take patients who need ventilators.

        And if you have ten months to prepare, well, you might not need ten day builds.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 05 2021, @08:58PM (2 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 05 2021, @08:58PM (#1095201)

      Wanna bet no industrial customer has to worry about shortages of oxygen? How can there even be a lack of it?

      As much as I know, blood oxygenation 90% and above has generally been considered normal, so not providing oxygen to those that don't really need it is understandable. If it is denied to people that need it though, using Covid as an excuse or even as a shakedown argument for more funding, heads need to roll.

      They did increase hospital capacity back in the first month of the two weeks to flatten the curve, remember? And eventually Trump reassigned the resources because NY crowed loudly, but wasn't really using them.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 05 2021, @09:11PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 05 2021, @09:11PM (#1095212)

        > ... no industrial customer has to worry about shortages of oxygen

        I don't know either way. What I do remember is from a welding supply shop, the oxygen sold for the old oxygen-acetylene torch welding had higher purity standards than medical grade oxygen. I never checked further, but I could see that a little N2 or Argon in the O2 probably wouldn't bother a patient, where it might upset the flame temp of the oxy-acetelene flame?

      • (Score: 2) by helel on Tuesday January 05 2021, @11:20PM

        by helel (2949) on Tuesday January 05 2021, @11:20PM (#1095328)

        As I understand it 96%-100% is considered normal. Reading the directive tho, this is more about how they are treating patients with hypoxia. Normally one would try to get them back up to 100% saturation and keep them there. Now, to save O2, they are only targeting 90%. Get there, cut the oxygen, wait for levels to fall, and reapply instead of just leaving them breathing through a mask until stabilized, I assume.

        --
        Republican Patriotism [youtube.com]
    • (Score: 2) by HiThere on Tuesday January 05 2021, @09:12PM

      by HiThere (866) on Tuesday January 05 2021, @09:12PM (#1095213) Journal

      When you're spending more than you're earning, and you're dealing with what you hope will be a temporary emergency, any loans to expand your business are going to be extremely expensive.

      US Hospitals are going broke in large numbers, and have been since before the pandemic started. They don't have lots of reserve funds. The health insurance companies do, but they aren't willing to share the wealth. (I'm not sure about Kaiser which seems like a combination of health insurance company and hospital chain.)

      You ask why they don't expand when they've been closing in large numbers?

      --
      Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 05 2021, @10:04PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 05 2021, @10:04PM (#1095252)

      Can someone explain to me why, after flattening the curve and buying time for *ten months*, nobody thought to use that time to expand hospitals, hire more hospital staff, mass-manufacture ventilators and oxygen tanks, and have 10x the capacity they'd need in the worst case?

      So where do you manufacture the doctors and nurses that you need? You can have 100x the beds you need but no one to take care of you when you need it.

      Also, learn something about exponential growth. When you have 100 cases per day in LA, you are just a hair away from being out of control spreading that will overwhelm whatever you prepare for. Your preparation is linear. Think about it.

    • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 05 2021, @10:05PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 05 2021, @10:05PM (#1095254)

      Some of that stuff could have been done. Some of it was. Some of it can't be done.

      AFAIK there's no shortage of ventilators. There's a shortage of staff. Could we have
      trained nurses in less than six months? No. Could we have given people just enough
      training to monitor Covid patients on a ventilator and given them a special license to
      act as nurses in that *one* capacity? Maybe--if everything went really well, like if you got
      the perfect training team and curriculum together and had great trainees... and it just
      all came together; but it seems more likely that'd just be a festerclack.

      Temporary structures and stuff, sure. Staff. That's the hard part. There's no way we could
      have tripled actual hospital capacity in that time. Sure. It'd be a building full of sick people,
      but it wouldn't be a hospital.

    • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Tuesday January 05 2021, @10:26PM

      by fustakrakich (6150) on Tuesday January 05 2021, @10:26PM (#1095269) Journal

      Can someone explain to me why, after flattening the curve and buying time for *ten months*, nobody thought to use that time to expand hospitals, hire more hospital staff, mass-manufacture ventilators and oxygen tanks, and have 10x the capacity they'd need in the worst case?

      Because with adequate services, it's harder to keep people in a panic. This is no failure, it's intentional, very profitable.

      --
      La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 05 2021, @10:48PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 05 2021, @10:48PM (#1095296)

      Because Moscow Mitch sat on a bill sent over from the House many months ago that would have provided funds to do what you mentioned?

      I'm confused what part you don't understand.

    • (Score: 2) by Thexalon on Tuesday January 05 2021, @10:55PM (1 child)

      by Thexalon (636) on Tuesday January 05 2021, @10:55PM (#1095304)

      hire more hospital staff

      If you, 10 months ago, took *everybody* with a 4-year degree and started training them to be nurses, do you know how many extra nurses you'd have right now? Zero. Because it takes longer than 10 months to train a nurse. And even moreso for doctors. You can go a bit faster when it comes to aides and techs with specific jobs, but it still takes time. Oh, and the people who are going to have to do the training work are the same experienced staff that you need to work double-shifts to treat patients.

      They've already done the relatively easy things they could do:
      1. They've offered big bucks to qualified-but-otherwise-employed people (e.g. RNs who normally staff a nursing home or dialysis clinic) to work temporary contracts in hard-hit areas.
      2. They've offered big bucks to retired nurses and doctors to come back to help out.

      And no, they can't solve the staffing shortage by hiring foreigners, either, because foreign doctors / nurses are needed in their own countries.

      Workers don't just spawn the way clicking the "Medic" button in Starcraft works.

      --
      The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
      • (Score: 2) by pdfernhout on Wednesday January 06 2021, @03:24AM

        by pdfernhout (5984) on Wednesday January 06 2021, @03:24AM (#1095447) Homepage

        Example: https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/finding-a-job/how-long-to-become-lpn [indeed.com]
        "Practical nursing certification programs usually last about one to two years, depending on whether you attend full- or part-time."

        There are also Registered Nurses who get more training, but perhaps some of that is probably redundant for people with already, say, a BA in biology, and so perhaps less training would be required in an emergency situation.
        https://www.nursinglicensure.org/articles/lpn-versus-rn/ [nursinglicensure.org]
        "RN and LPN: two different sets of initials on different name badges – and often two very different roles. Registered nurses (RN) have, at the minimum, a two-year degree or three-year diploma. Many have baccalaureate degrees. RNs have an expanded set of duties and are more frequently employed in hospital settings. They, RNs, are generally expected to do more critical thinking on the job. Find a Registered Nursing program in your state. Licensed practical nurses (LPN) have about a year of nursing education, often culminating in a certificate. A minority complete longer programs and walk away with a degree – often an Associate of Applied Science (AAS). The role of an LPN is, as the name suggests, practical. LPNs are expected to report even minor changes in patient care to a registered nurse or other medical professional. As for what they actually do on the job, often it’s a lot!"

        And see also: https://www.military.com/special-operations/army-special-forces-training.html [military.com]
        "18D - SF Medical Sergeant – 46 weeks. The 18D education is arguably the best combat medic training in the world and creates experts in medical, surgical, dental, veterinary, and pharmaceutical subjects. This course is called the Special Forces Medical Sergeants Course (SFMS) which consists of the 24 week Special Operations Combat Medic Course (SOCM) as well as an additional 22 week training cycle to complete the 18D training pipeline. Complete with trauma care, physiology, anatomy, and advanced paramedic training."

        While it may take a lifetime to learn any profession well, whether nursing, doctoring, or programming -- you can often learn the basics in a short time and then bootstrap from there in a supportive environment (yes, likely with some disasters along the way, to be weighed against the disasters from inadequate staffing in time of need).

        Or there is the cheapo Dilbert "Google Health Plan" ( https://dilbert.com/strip/2007-02-18 [dilbert.com] ) at-home learning program for people like my family who did not have health insurance for many years (ironically due to moving to a non-age-adjusted high-health-insurance-cost state two decades ago to help elderly parents covered by four different health insurances).

        On the plus side, not having health insurance for so many years is part of why I learned so much about staying healthy. :-)

        Beyond Google and Catbert's help, here are some useful "Where There is No Doctor/Dentist" guides from Hesperian for people living in either underdeveloped and overdeveloped health care systems:
        https://store.hesperian.org/prod/Where_There_Is_No_Doctor.html [hesperian.org]
        https://store.hesperian.org/prod/Where_There_Is_No_Dentist.html [hesperian.org]

        Some other educational references on that about eating better and having a healthy microbiome:
        https://www.healthpromoting.com/the-pleasure-trap [healthpromoting.com]
        https://www.amazon.com/Fasting-Eating-Health-Medical-Conquering/dp/031218719X [amazon.com]
        https://www.amazon.com/Whole-Foods-Diet-Lifesaving-Longevity/dp/1478944919 [amazon.com]
        https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00Q33FYY0/ [amazon.com]
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat,_Sick_and_Nearly_Dead [wikipedia.org]

        Or in general, get outdoor exercise, sunlight/D3, good sleep, social interactions, whole foods, and relaxing experiences every day:
        https://tlc.ku.edu/ [ku.edu]
        "We were never designed for the sedentary, indoor, sleep-deprived, socially-isolated, fast-food-laden, frenetic pace of modern life. (Stephen Ilardi, PhD)"

        Of course, now that we have comprehensive health insurance (>US$20K per year), doctors push stuff on my family like drinking polyethylene glycol to wipe out beneficial gut bacteria (for routine colonoscopy), irradiating body tissue to "prevent" cancer (for mammography), and a lifetime of prescription psychotropics (for headaches mainly due to unlabelled sulfites in food which Al Gore tried unsuccessfully to ban decades ago) -- all standard medical interventions that contribute to IBS, cancer, mental illness, and other ill health that highly-paid medical practitioners can then profitably treat. See also books by a cofounder of the Cochrane collaboration: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_C._G%C3%B8tzsche [wikipedia.org]

        A historical footnote on how US medical care got so screwed up -- where for generations essentially no one but a rich white man with a university degree could be a physician, and health care was only concerned with applying specific treatments to individuals identified as sick:
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexner_Report [wikipedia.org]
        "Flexner sought to reduce the number of medical schools in the US. A majority of American institutions granting MD or DO degrees as of the date of the Report (1910) closed within two to three decades. (In Canada, only the medical school at Western University was deemed inadequate, but none was closed or merged subsequent to the Report.) In 1904, there were 160 MD-granting institutions with more than 28,000 students. By 1920, there were only 85 MD-granting institutions, educating only 13,800 students. By 1935, there were only 66 medical schools operating in the US. ... Flexner advocated closing all but two of the historically black medical schools. His opinions were followed and only Howard and Meharry were left open, while five other schools were closed. His perspective was that black doctors should only treat black patients and should serve roles subservient to white physicians. The closure of these schools and the fact that black students were not admitted to many medical schools in the US for 50 years after Flexner has contributed to the low numbers of American born physicians of color and the ramifications are still felt more than a century later. ... The vision for medical education described in the Flexner Report narrowed medical schools’ interests to disease, and not on the system of health care or society’s health beyond disease. Preventive medicine and population health were not considered a responsibility of physicians, bifurcating “health” into two separate fields: scientific medicine and public health. ..."

        Maybe sometimes the only way to win the medical game is not to play? From:
        https://www.drfuhrman.com/elearning/blog/183/coronavirus-and-the-flu-five-ways-to-protect-yourself [drfuhrman.com]
        "They say that the best defense is a good offense – and when it comes to protecting yourself from the coronavirus and the flu, that’s never been more true. There’s a lot of advice floating around on the internet – some of it good, much of it ridiculous. In this short video, I discuss how to keep yourself and your family safe – and why eating a high-nutrient Nutritarian diet is really the best way to boost your immunity and keep yourself safe from disease."

        --
        The biggest challenge of the 21st century: the irony of technologies of abundance used by scarcity-minded people.
    • (Score: 2, Informative) by hemocyanin on Tuesday January 05 2021, @11:31PM (2 children)

      by hemocyanin (186) on Tuesday January 05 2021, @11:31PM (#1095333) Journal

      They were too busy choreographing, dancing, and editing their Tik Tok videos during working hours.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 06 2021, @12:05AM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 06 2021, @12:05AM (#1095354)

        Were you going for funny? Cause that is a very lame dig on the younger generations.

        • (Score: 1) by hemocyanin on Wednesday January 06 2021, @03:15AM

          by hemocyanin (186) on Wednesday January 06 2021, @03:15AM (#1095443) Journal

          No -- I was going for bitter or maybe exasperated. These people are apparently completely tone deaf and destructive. If the hospitals are overrun, all they do is raise questions about whether that is a fact -- you know, if your goal is to spread the word that HC providers are so busy and the covid bodies are piled out into hallways and all that, dancing around in an empty hospital is lousy messaging. Considering the misinformation we've been served though, such as "don't wear masks, they are useless, and we need them all for HC providers" or "rioting is more important than social distancing" -- well, by the end of this covid thing people are going to trust used car salesmen more than public health officials, doctors, and nurses. And probably rightly so.

    • (Score: 2) by Username on Wednesday January 06 2021, @02:54AM (1 child)

      by Username (4557) on Wednesday January 06 2021, @02:54AM (#1095425)

      This is their golden cow. They will milk it for as long as it's here.

      Anyway, you can buy an oxygen concentrator yourself right now. Not like there is a shortage. Or simply buy the filter that separates n2 from o2 and put it on your air compressor and use your existing respirator. That's why I'm suspicious of this oxygen shortage. Can literally take it out of the atmosphere.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 06 2021, @03:20AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 06 2021, @03:20AM (#1095445)

        This seems like the perfect opportunity for a carbon exhalation tax, and a ban on personal air compressors.

    • (Score: 2) by Valkor on Wednesday January 06 2021, @03:10AM

      by Valkor (4253) on Wednesday January 06 2021, @03:10AM (#1095439)

      bro, they did.

      they all did.

      they all moved and constructed and set up in parking lots. portable treatment and imaging facilities were brought in.

      please stop being stupid in public.

    • (Score: 2) by darkfeline on Wednesday January 06 2021, @03:37AM

      by darkfeline (1030) on Wednesday January 06 2021, @03:37AM (#1095451) Homepage

      > have 10x the capacity they'd need in the worst case
      > Always have more capacity than you need.

      That's called wasted capacity. We can't afford to waste 90% of our resources on unused capacity in the off chance that there will be a widespread spike in demand.

      inb4 we're wasting resources elsewhere. Two wrongs don't make a right.

      --
      Join the SDF Public Access UNIX System today!
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 06 2021, @04:31AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 06 2021, @04:31AM (#1095468)

      You're not going to triple capacity in under a year. Tents aren't necessarily realistic in most of the areas that are being hit hardest. Perhaps in So Cal and along the southern border,m but definitely not some of the more northern states. You're also going to have issues because it takes years to train doctors and nurses. You might be able to get some lower level, lower skill jobs filled, but not to the extent that you'd need.

      As for the supplies, thanks to capitalism and years of companies boosting their bottom lines by sending production overseas, it's questionable how many could even produce some of the things that are needed, but the failure to use the Defense Production powers that the President has is probably part of the issue.

    • (Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday January 06 2021, @04:49AM

      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday January 06 2021, @04:49AM (#1095479) Journal
      Governments don't bother to spend pennies on prevention because there are dollars to be had for emergency.

      nobody thought to use that time to expand hospitals, hire more hospital staff, mass-manufacture ventilators and oxygen tanks, and have 10x the capacity they'd need in the worst case?

      And how are they going to get that investment covered prior to when it is needed?

    • (Score: 2) by Beryllium Sphere (r) on Wednesday January 06 2021, @06:20PM

      by Beryllium Sphere (r) (5062) on Wednesday January 06 2021, @06:20PM (#1095698)

      Nursing is a four-year degree. Tripling the number of personnel to staff the new beds would be one heck of a long lead item.

      Agreed that half a year ago would have been the time to upgrade oxygen delivery systems.

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