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posted by martyb on Monday October 02 2017, @04:18PM   Printer-friendly

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/10/02/554976369/section-of-las-vegas-strip-is-closed-after-music-festival-shooting

A gunman fired upon thousands of people attending a music festival on the Las Vegas Strip Sunday night, in a brutal attack that is blamed for at least 58 deaths, police say. In the mass shooting and panic that ensued, 515 people were injured. At least one of the dead is an off-duty police officer who was attending the concert.

Editorializing: Interesting how media always emphasize ISLAMIC terrorists, but downplay domestic terrorism as psychologically disturbed individual lone-wolfs.


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  • (Score: 0, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @04:23PM (36 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @04:23PM (#575951)

    Firstly, Islamic terrorists are obviously psychologically disturbed by virtue of their religiousness, so it doesn't need to be re-stated.

    However, there is still a key difference: The Islamic terrorists are explicitly aligning themselves with and fitting themselves into an large-scale, arguably global socio-religio-philosophical-political movement. That is why they are not, by definition, lone wolves.

    • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @04:42PM (22 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @04:42PM (#575963)

      Firstly, Islamic terrorists are obviously psychologically disturbed by virtue of their religiousness, so it doesn't need to be re-stated.

      And some clown who kills more than 50 people by randomly shooting into a crowd from his 32nd floor hotel room isn't "obviously psychologically disturbed"?

      However, there is still a key difference: The Islamic terrorists are explicitly aligning themselves with and fitting themselves into an large-scale, arguably global socio-religio-philosophical-political movement. That is why they are not, by definition, lone wolves.

      This shooter was not an "Islamic terrorist", he was a good old fashioned home-grown American terrorist. And anyone who is acting alone, but aligns themselves with a distant group to make them self feel better (unbeknownst to the distant group), is still a lone wolf. Unrequited allegiance does not a member make.

      • (Score: 1, Redundant) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday October 02 2017, @04:45PM (1 child)

        And some clown who kills more than 50 people by randomly shooting into a crowd from his 32nd floor hotel room isn't "obviously psychologically disturbed"?

        ...so it doesn't need to be re-stated.

        Hope that helps.

        --
        My rights don't end where your fear begins.
        • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @04:51PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @04:51PM (#575969)

          Hope that helps.

          Not at all. AC's "obviously psychologically disturbed" comment was related to Islamic terrorists and had nothing to do with last night's shooter. My comment was related to last night's American terrorist and had nothing to do with Islam.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @04:56PM (17 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @04:56PM (#575975)

        I never said the shooter isn't obviously psychologically disturbed. I said that calling someone an "Islamic Terrorist" is also calling that someone "obviously psychologically disturbed"; it's just that one is also relaying even more information about the situation: The terrorist is part of one particular global problem.

        Of course it makes a member. This disturbed individual was infected with the mind-virus that has been carefully crafted by a world-wide group that you paint as being "distant"; it's not distant, as evidenced by attackers around the world, who find in their philosophy the mental structures to prepare them for real action.

        Conspiracy doesn't require the face-to-face meeting of a cabal; it doesn't even require members to know that they are conspirators, because it just requires a shared culture, often a religious one with which people have been inculcated since birth or which a person finds satisfyingly explanatory and motivational for his psychological disturbances.

        Invalid form key: jDEXgMHQUc

        Suck a cock, SoylentNews, you garbage.

        • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @05:26PM (12 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @05:26PM (#576003)

          Based on your logic Stephen Paddock (the shooter) could have been inspired by some random book club and you would label him a member of said book club and his actions a conspiracy with same book club.

          Also, your contention that people are "obviously psychologically disturbed by virtue of their religiousness" is invalid due to the prevalence of religion throughout the world. Since the vast majority of people are religious, not believing would fall outside of societal norms and would therefore be considered "obviously psychologically disturbed". (disclaimer: I am an atheist).

          In an insane society, the sane man must appear insane

          • (Score: 3, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @06:12PM (9 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @06:12PM (#576044)

            There's a difference between two things which we'll call being a being a "believer" and being religious. My family is religious. And the reason they're religious, even though they would never admit it, is because they're playing Pascal's Wager [wikipedia.org]. They're getting older and are thinking more seriously about their mortality. They found religion as a means of appeasing their minds and anxieties about going down that final path we all take. I'd like to imagine I won't, but as the saying goes - there's no atheists in fox holes. If people actually believed in their religions they'd be seeking to die at the first opportunity, preferably in the face of oppression. After all, they know that the infinite happiness and pleasure of heaven awaits them, right? And they wouldn't arbitrarily redefine their religious texts to fit their whim of the day.

            And this is where Islam stands apart from other mainstream religions. They have a large number of "believers." Many obviously do genuinely believe that if they die they'll wake up in a nonstop orgy with 72 perpetual virgins. And far from moderating their religion, the religion resembles Christianity of a thousand years ago with religious education, overtly religious politics directly converting religious blatherings into enforceable law, and more. I think a big part of the religion's success (from the perspective of a religious inventor) is because it requires people to overtly display the religion and their religiosity. Apostasy was considered the most grievous of sins by most religions, but in Christianity if a person stops believing you can't really tell it so clearly. In Islam it's genuinely expected that people prostrate themselves and pray out loud 5 times a day, women are covered in glorified trash bags (and yes - there are some exceptions, but they are the exceptions), and more. If you stop believing your apostasy is going to be quite visible unless you go out of your way to pretend to keep believing. And when everybody is pretending to believe, and the penalty for apostasy is death, it makes everybody afraid to ever stop pretending. It's likely not dissimilar from the situation with Nazis. The Nazis never had huge support failing to ever once win a majority vote until they cemented their control and banned opposition parties. Nonetheless, those 50% who didn't support them probably were never going to open their mouth when that'd be a good way to end up getting disappeared.

            • (Score: 0, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @09:08PM (8 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @09:08PM (#576191)

              And far from moderating their religion [Islam], the religion resembles Christianity of a thousand years ago with religious education, overtly religious politics directly converting religious blatherings into enforceable law, and more.

              Islam very much resembles Christianity of a thousand years ago. Just about a thousand years ago (give or take a couple hundred) Christianity was going through their crusades cycle.

              Modern Islam is about a thousand years younger (give or take several hundred) than Christianity, and here, today, we have Islam going through their own crusades cycle.

              The big difference? A thousand years ago there was only so much killing any one individual could do using knives, spears, bows & arrows, etc. So while many were killed, there was a lot more work, and a much more up close and personal aspect to it.

              Today, we have Islam going through their crusades, only with modern AK-47 rifles and modern explosives. Much more deadly than any of the weaponry of a thousand years ago.

              • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Bot on Monday October 02 2017, @10:00PM (7 children)

                by Bot (3902) on Monday October 02 2017, @10:00PM (#576242) Journal

                Islam very much resembles Christianity of a thousand years ago

                uh, nope.
                Self appointed christians may have behaved like orthodox muslims, a thousand years ago and yesterday.

                --
                Account abandoned.
                • (Score: 4, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday October 02 2017, @10:08PM (6 children)

                  Bullshit. Show me the Christian army running around killing people of other belief systems simply because they have other belief systems. And don't even try claiming that of the US. You know damned good and well we don't give a shit who anyone worships. Our bad decisions are made for entirely secular reasons.

                  --
                  My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @10:20PM (3 children)

                    by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @10:20PM (#576261)

                    Well, Iraq believed they could stop using the Petro-dollar. Look how that turned out. You see, when your believe system is based on petroleum . . .

                  • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 03 2017, @03:53AM (1 child)

                    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 03 2017, @03:53AM (#576410)

                    Show me the Christian army running around killing people of other belief systems simply because they have other belief systems

                    The year was 1209.
                    The commander was Arnaud Amalric, the Abbot of Citeaux, acting on behalf of Pope Innocent III.

                    When asked by his crusader army whom among the captured to kill, he said, "Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius" often translated as "Kill them all. God will know His own." [google.com]"

                    Your ignorance of history is showing yet again, whippersnapper.

                    -- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]

                    • (Score: 3, Informative) by Mykl on Tuesday October 03 2017, @06:12AM

                      by Mykl (1112) on Tuesday October 03 2017, @06:12AM (#576450)

                      Before mouthing off at GP, you may want to re-read his posts in this thread. He made the claim that current day Islamists act like the Christian Church of 1,000 years ago, but that the Christian Church of today is different.

                      Then you stumble into the conversation and bring up an example from 1209, supporting the GP's point succinctly, before telling him he's full of it. Nice job.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @06:22PM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @06:22PM (#576049)

            Here: [wikipedia.org]

            On May 31, 2014, two 12-year-old girls in Waukesha, Wisconsin allegedly held down and stabbed a 12-year-old classmate 19 times. When questioned later by authorities, they reportedly claimed that they wished to commit a murder as a first step to becoming proxies for the Slender Man, having read about it online...

            After hearing the story, an unidentified woman from Cincinnati, Ohio told a WLWT TV reporter in June 2014 that her 13-year-old daughter had attacked her with a knife, and had written macabre fiction, some involving the Slender Man, who the mother said motivated the attack...

            On September 4, 2014, a 14-year-old girl in Port Richey, Florida, allegedly set her family's house on fire while her mother and nine-year-old brother were inside. Police reported that the teenager had been reading online stories about Slender Man as well as Atsushi Ōkubo's manga Soul Eater...

            During an early 2015 epidemic of suicide attempts by young people ages 12 to 24 on the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation, Slender Man was cited as an influence; the Oglala Sioux tribe president noted that many Native Americans traditionally believe in a "suicide spirit" similar to the Slender Man.

            It's worth noting the reasons why people do things.

            Terrorism is violence for the furthering of some political purpose; Islamic terrorism is different from, say, a guy who has never been able to get a woman to sleep with him and takes out his revenge on the world. The reason should be pointed out, because it's important.

            Invalid form key: 9nswbmZtUL

            To paraphrase another AC: Suck a cock, SoylentNews.

            • (Score: 3, Funny) by bzipitidoo on Monday October 02 2017, @09:57PM

              by bzipitidoo (4388) Subscriber Badge on Monday October 02 2017, @09:57PM (#576238) Journal

              > a guy who has never been able to get a woman to sleep with him and takes out his revenge on the world

              When I was attending college and living in a men's dorm on campus, this thought belatedly occurred to me. The first dorm I was in not only was all men, it was the most luxurious, newest men's dorm on campus, and the entire football team lived there. If some crazy, hard up guy thought to reduce the competition for women by offing a bunch of men, there could not have been a more obvious choice than bombing the dorm I was in. The same logic could apply if some ultra rabid fan of an opposing football team wanted to assure victory by eliminating our team. I moved to another dorm the next year.

        • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @05:52PM (3 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @05:52PM (#576031)

          The invalid form key is an interesting bit, it seems to come and go. I went traveling and using my phone abroad I never ran into the form key problem, but back in the US I get the problem almost constantly on my phone, and often the only solution is to copy my text and re-post very quickly. If I can get the comment submitted within 5 seconds it seems to always succeed.

          So, is the issue SN shitty code? Or are ISPs / gov fuckery to blame? The NSA is able to crack ssl sessions, so I wonder if SN traffic is just targeted, or perhaps its just specific users. Given the comments on this site it seems likely a vast majority of users here are on watch lists.

          Full blown tinfoil, SN was a spin off honey pot to catch "extremists" and this is part of why there is so much partisan garbage and trolling, see if they can find the users who are likely to flip out. Same thing for Voat. Damn, shoulda saved some foil for my chicken, now its gonna dry out :(

          • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @09:43PM (2 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @09:43PM (#576223)

            Full blown tinfoil

            Are you using tor? Someone said the invalid form key error is from the changing of IPs that tor does every few minutes.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 03 2017, @04:10AM (1 child)

              by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 03 2017, @04:10AM (#576415)

              It has been suggested before that if you are using TOR, then go ahead and compose your comment in a text editor and, when you've got that all ready, call up a comment page and cut & paste your "brilliance" into the dialog box.

              There, GP. That wasn't so fucking difficult, was it?

              ...and, GP, just how difficult is it to cut & paste from the rejected tab|window|instance into a fresh copy of the comment page?
              Jeez. How whiney can you get?

              -- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 03 2017, @06:00PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 03 2017, @06:00PM (#576700)

                I am not using TOR, but who knows what fuckery my cell provider does.

      • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @06:53PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @06:53PM (#576078)

        > This shooter was not an "Islamic terrorist", he was a good old fashioned
        > home-grown American terrorist.

        But why a "terrorist" ? Tim McVeigh and Ted Kaczynsky were terrorists, they
        had manifestos, well documented "causes" they were supporting through their
        actions (however insane their reasoning and decision making processes might
        have been).

        Until we know more, this guy might simply have been a good old-fashioned
        nutjob. Terrorism is by definition the attempt to frighten people into
        complying with one's "cause". I'd like to eventually find out if (and what)
        this guy's "cause" was, before I'm ready to label him a bona fide "terorist".

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 03 2017, @04:24AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 03 2017, @04:24AM (#576420)

          What are you? Some kind of commie?

          The American Way is to jump off the deep end and start throwing around baseless accusations.
          Don't you consume Lamestream Media?
          Haven't you noticed what cops do routinely?

          ...and the shooter was an over-60 real estate guy.
          Haven't you noticed what whackos that lot is?
          It was just about time for him to snap.
          {Picture of Donnie Tiny Hands with his jaw jutted out Mussolini-style goes here}

          Oh, and his brother says that the shooter wasn't a gun guy.
          ...despite his having dozens of firearms in his hotel room.

          -- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]

    • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Monday October 02 2017, @06:49PM (8 children)

      by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Monday October 02 2017, @06:49PM (#576074) Homepage Journal

      As of yet, there is no indication that this guy was *any* kind of terrorist. His acts were terrifying for sure, but no one knows what his motives were. Maybe he converted to Islam, maybe he's a white supremacist, maybe he's just nucking phutts.

      --
      “If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking.” ― George S. Patton on Ukraine
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @08:14PM (2 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @08:14PM (#576152)

        Correct. If I were a beating man I'd bet on Leftist terrorist, but I'm not. Coincidentally I have never felt the need to visit Las Vegas.

        • (Score: 3, Funny) by DannyB on Monday October 02 2017, @08:32PM

          by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Monday October 02 2017, @08:32PM (#576167) Journal

          If I were a beating man I'd bet on Leftist terrorist

          Only someone on the political right would be beating on a leftist and calling them a terrorist.

          As for betting, I don't have any reason to visit Las Vegas. No desire to beat bet. I grew up there decades ago when it seemed cleaner and nicer. I've seen every sob story there is of people coming there, losing everything, and crying about it. Let's do some more gambling today to make up for what we lost yesterday!

          Like Joshua says on Wargames: the only way to win is not to play.

          What happens in Vegas, stays on YouTube.

          --
          While in an airport, never use the word "balm".
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @08:33PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @08:33PM (#576169)

          Correct. If I were a beating man I'd bet on Leftist terrorist,

          And if I were a burning man, i'd beat that it was a Rightist, but mostly I would want some one to put me out.

      • (Score: 2) by frojack on Monday October 02 2017, @09:03PM

        by frojack (1554) Subscriber Badge on Monday October 02 2017, @09:03PM (#576189) Journal

        there is no indication that this guy was *any* kind of terrorist.

        Yet!!!

        Early days.

        --
        No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
      • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @09:12PM (2 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @09:12PM (#576195)

        His social media looked pretty much like that of the shooter who went to the congressional baseball practice and hit Steve Scalise: all sorts of Bernie stuff, following Rachel Maddow, the "not my president" stuff, etc.

        His wife did travel to UAE, so there's that, but she wasn't covered up and she seems to have gone alone. This probably isn't directly Islam, though Islamophilia could play a role.

        After the election, losing VP candidate Tim Kaine said to fight in the streets. It's happening. Mao said that power comes from the barrel of a gun, and the commie types are taking it to heart.

        It didn't take long after this shooting before numerous liberals (teachers and a news executive even) were expressing hope that it was all Trump supporters who were killed. Note that the target was a country music event, stereotypically the type of thing that might attract Trump supporters. No doubt, this was political. The left is violent.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @10:06PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @10:06PM (#576250)

          Look it up. It is all true. Some of the evidence is here: https://i.redd.it/n5le2zvuqgpz.png [i.redd.it]

          Tim Kaine really did tweet about fighting in the streets, and his son got arrested for doing just that.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 03 2017, @04:41AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 03 2017, @04:41AM (#576424)

          Based on the comment to which you are responding, it appears that you are claiming that a Dumbocrat is a Leftist.
          Heh. You're funny.

          Oh, you were serious?
          In that case, you're just plain ignorant.
          Tim Kaine is a Wall Street lackey.
          There's absolutely nothing Anti-Capitalist about him.

          If you're taking your marching orders from Tim Kaine, you're being led down a Neoliberal pathway: exported jobs; austerity; ridiculous student debt; tax cuts for the rich; etc.
          You'd need a -really- thin feeler gauge to find any space between a Neoliberal Dumbocrat and a Reactionary Repug on the Left-Right axis.
          Probably on the Authoritarian-Civil Liberties axis as well.

          -- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]

      • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 03 2017, @08:08AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 03 2017, @08:08AM (#576489)

        "As of yet, there is no indication that this guy was *any* kind of terrorist."

        You make it sound like he has to be in order for this to be turned into another reason to put everyone else (except maybe 1% of us I guess.) on lockdown for our own good. Give it 3 days tops and you'll see politicians screaming for backdoors in every form of encryption (Again) even as sources say the guy didn't try to contact anyone at any time. Or you'll find them screaming to increase domestic spying so they can catch people like this even as police confirm they already had the guy investigated years ago, etc etc. It'll be the same story as every time before. Just plug in a few different names and locations. And that's the sad part.

    • (Score: 2) by number11 on Tuesday October 03 2017, @05:44AM (3 children)

      by number11 (1170) on Tuesday October 03 2017, @05:44AM (#576443)

      And Christian terrorists get free ride?

      Not only in the past (Crusades, Inquisition), but nowdays (Srebrenica, Oklahoma
      City, Atlanta Olympic bomber, abortion doctor murder, Dynan Roof, the Milwaukee
      Sikh Temple assassin, etc.).

      If you're going to identify one mass murderer by religion, identify them all.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 03 2017, @06:39AM (2 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 03 2017, @06:39AM (#576462)

        plz post yr vids of Christian terrorist supporters dancing in the streets celebrating Srebrenica, Oklahoma City, Atlanta Olympic bomber, abortion doctor murder, Dynan Roof, the Milwaukee Sikh Temple assassins, etc.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 03 2017, @08:21AM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 03 2017, @08:21AM (#576492)

          They do it online becuz they rnt poor brownz

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 03 2017, @08:50AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 03 2017, @08:50AM (#576498)

            plz repost vidz they not show 4 me

  • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @04:27PM (35 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @04:27PM (#575954)

    >Editorializing: Interesting how media always emphasize ISLAMIC terrorists, but downplay domestic terrorism as psychologically disturbed individual lone-wolfs.

    ISIS claims that the attacker is a recent convert to Islam who carried out his attack in the name of the Islamic State.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/las-vegas-isis-shooting-claims-stephen-paddock-responsibility-latest-a7978941.html [independent.co.uk]

    • (Score: 3, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @04:48PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @04:48PM (#575968)

      ISIS claims that the attacker is a recent convert ...

      They can claim anything they want, but it will only hurt their recruiting reputation when it is shown that this old white dude had nothing to do with ISIS or Islam. But what does ISIS really have to lose? They can also claim that the American government is lying about this shooter's true motives in order to harm ISIS.

      The suckers that ISIS recruits already have one foot into the mindset required to become a terrorist; they're looking for a nudge or tipping point to convince them to join.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @05:06PM (9 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @05:06PM (#575983)

      FBI say no links to any terrorist group but the added editorial is still horse-shit, may as well read:

      Interesting how the left always emphasize far-right terrorists, but downplay left-wing or Islamic terrorism as psychologically disturbed individual lone-wolfs.

      As if mass murderer could ever be excusable...

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @05:09PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @05:09PM (#575985)

        Would it be excusable then?

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by jmorris on Monday October 02 2017, @05:30PM (4 children)

        by jmorris (4844) on Monday October 02 2017, @05:30PM (#576005)

        It isn't about excusable. A right wing terrorist is USEFUL to the Narrative, left wing terrorist are a danger to eliminate and Islamic terror is far too useful for the right to allow to have excess airplay. Yes the people in the media, the Blue Checkmark Mafia, etc. really DO think this way.

        All "news" is viewed through the same lens, as raw material feeding into the media machine to be ground up and formed into the Narrative. It is all about the politics. Always.

        Just an aside, notice how fast HRC hit twitter asking everybody to abandon politics and fight the NRA? Is she that oblivious? Bet the media will bury it. Watch for it.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @06:20PM (2 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @06:20PM (#576048)

          I'm confused, HRC is saying fight the NRA and you're saying the media will bury it? I thought the media was a left-wing conspiracy and the narrative is all about removing guns from the population, thus they would be more likely to highlight HRC's tweets.

          Are you mixing up your online personas again?

          • (Score: 2, Informative) by jmorris on Monday October 02 2017, @06:32PM (1 child)

            by jmorris (4844) on Monday October 02 2017, @06:32PM (#576058)

            I'm saying that was so over the top full retard that the media will bury it because it so obviously counter productive. They will push control in the coming days, but not so incompetently.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @08:46PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @08:46PM (#576179)

              Or perhaps the media will simply ignore it, because she's not relevant any more.

        • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @10:02PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @10:02PM (#576246)

          Here is evidence so far: https://i.redd.it/n5le2zvuqgpz.png [i.redd.it]

          So, definitely a democrat, with a fairly strong chance of at least some connection to Islam.

          Tim Kaine, the losing VP candidate, said to fight in the streets. It's happening. After the Steve Scalise shooting and the Antifa bike lock attacks and now this, it is clear: the left is willing to murder the right.

      • (Score: 3, Interesting) by DannyB on Monday October 02 2017, @08:35PM (2 children)

        by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Monday October 02 2017, @08:35PM (#576170) Journal

        Maybe it's just me and my twisted world view. But left or right seems to have nothing to do with someone who commits mass murder.

        It's interesting how after an incident like this, many scramble to associate the perpetrator with the ${evil} political party.

        --
        While in an airport, never use the word "balm".
        • (Score: 3, Informative) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday October 02 2017, @09:11PM

          That's because many people are just shitheads.

          --
          My rights don't end where your fear begins.
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 03 2017, @05:02AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 03 2017, @05:02AM (#576430)

          left or right seems to have nothing to do with someone who commits mass murder

          Well, if it could be shown that he was hired (exploited labor) by an employer in order to kill someone, -then- it would be pretty clear that he was Capitalist-friendly.

          ...and he was a real estate guy (rent seeker).
          Sounds like a Right^W Wrong Winger to me.

          many scramble to associate the perpetrator with the ${evil} political party

          Hey! The Socialist Equality Party wasn't mentioned anywhere so far.

          Oh, wait. You're trying to say that The Dumbocrats are "Left".
          Now, that's funny.

          Tim Kaine has been mentioned.
          That dude is in Wall Street's back pocket.
          He couldn't be farther from "Left".
          I can't think of a single Dumbocrat who's about the collective ownership of the means of production by The Workers.

          -- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]

    • (Score: 2) by meustrus on Monday October 02 2017, @05:19PM (23 children)

      by meustrus (4961) on Monday October 02 2017, @05:19PM (#575994)

      And the idiotic news media continues to spread IS propaganda, perpetuating the very ideas that led to the shooting in the first place. When will we learn that ideas are powerful, and we must not allow evil ideas to take over our thoughts and conversations?

      This is not a call for censorship. Just don't spread ideas that you think are evil.

      Be the change you wish to see in the world.

      --
      If there isn't at least one reference or primary source, it's not +1 Informative. Maybe the underused +1 Interesting?
      • (Score: 2) by takyon on Monday October 02 2017, @05:40PM (18 children)

        by takyon (881) <{takyon} {at} {soylentnews.org}> on Monday October 02 2017, @05:40PM (#576013) Journal

        Just don't spread ideas that you think are evil.

        Did the shooter believe he was committing an "evil" act? Is there such a thing as "evil"?

        Be the change you wish to see in the world.

        What if I want to perpetuate the evil I wish to see in the world?

        --
        [SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
        • (Score: 5, Informative) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday October 02 2017, @05:45PM (12 children)

          by Azuma Hazuki (5086) Subscriber Badge on Monday October 02 2017, @05:45PM (#576022) Journal

          If you want to talk moral philosophy, yes, there is such a thing as evil. Morality is relative in that there are no free-floating non-contingent Platonic moral facts out there, but both absolute and inevitable in the sense that any species of social, intelligent beings is *bound* to come up with things like "don't murder each other" if it is to last for any length of time.

          --
          I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
          • (Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Monday October 02 2017, @06:20PM (11 children)

            by Grishnakh (2831) on Monday October 02 2017, @06:20PM (#576047)

            intelligent beings is *bound* to come up with things like "don't murder each other" if it is to last for any length of time.

            I'm certainly not trying to argue for terrorists, but this just isn't true: any functioning society has mechanisms to deal with members of the society who would cause it damage or destruction. We usually call them "the police". Part of their job is to neutralize harmful people, which sometimes means killing them. You might try to argue that that's not murder, but usually it is: when police stormed this nutjob's hotel room, they surely had every intention of killing him. Maybe in the future with more reliable less-lethal weapons this will become a thing of the past, but not yet.

            Moreover, there's been plenty of societies throughout human history that have used murder to keep their societies in line, whether it's Nazi Germany, the Romans, or even many modern societies that still use capital punishment. So social, intelligent beings normalizing murder isn't exceptional at all, it's the norm. Then look at what happens in war: that's all about using murder to achieve some sort of social goal (overthrowing an oppressive government, instituting a particular government (perhaps oppressive, but only to the "wrong" people), achieving independence, preventing independence, and usually gaining control over resources).

            "Terrorists" are simply doing what normal governments have done for millennia: using violence to force social change. I won't say that their causes are just, but was it just when the Romans invaded various places? The Romans were, after all, the legitimate government in their time. Or was it just when Nazi Germany invaded Poland, beheaded "traitors", etc.? Again, they were the legitimate government, and were democratically elected. None of those groups saw themselves as "evil", and neither do terrorists; they always view their enemies as evil.

            • (Score: 4, Interesting) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday October 02 2017, @06:29PM (10 children)

              by Azuma Hazuki (5086) Subscriber Badge on Monday October 02 2017, @06:29PM (#576054) Journal

              Heh...I didn't say "kill" but rather "murder" for a very good reason here. All the people you're talking about did this under color of law. It's still wrong, but the illusion of law = good caused those societies to stay more stable at the cost of long-term viability. I believe the law is there to point out the good for those as won't or can't figure it out themselves, and perversions like this strike at the very foundations of a society. That's the double-edged sword of law; when the law goes bad, all those idiots who don't think will go along with it. Law is technology.

              --
              I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @07:30PM (9 children)

                by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @07:30PM (#576121)

                Wow, I never thought about it quite like that, but the phrase "law is technology" is really apt. I've always just considered it an artificial construct of society, but that is too nebulous. Technology is a term most people will immediately understand.

                • (Score: 2) by jmorris on Monday October 02 2017, @08:47PM (8 children)

                  by jmorris (4844) on Monday October 02 2017, @08:47PM (#576181)

                  It isn't just law. Civilization and society are also a "technology" but are also like biology in that they are subject to variation and natural selection. Which is why some of us believe in conserving / restoring Western Civilization and only allowing small changes with sufficient time to observe and correct mistakes. We believe that we don't understand WHY our civilization works better than the others, only that it does / did. We believe that our current knowledge of social dynamics is insufficient to allow wholesale planned redesigns and that this explains most of the current ills of the modern world.

                  • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday October 02 2017, @09:19PM (2 children)

                    by Azuma Hazuki (5086) Subscriber Badge on Monday October 02 2017, @09:19PM (#576204) Journal

                    Define "western society." Specify time period. Hint: we have words like "Senate" for a reason.

                    And for fuck's sake, take a beta blocker or something. Your overactive amygdala is turning you into a reactionary, not a conservative; you're railing against the reality of the modern world, not "non-Western civilization." Update your firmware or wipe your drive.

                    --
                    I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @11:13PM (4 children)

                    by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @11:13PM (#576296)

                    Aww, and you were doing so well for a little bit! Guess you really are just 1 part normal, 3 parts weird, and 10 parts crazy.

                    Western civilization doesn't work much better than any others, but it sure did get a leg up with the industrial revolution and the takeover of North America. WWII knocked everyone on their ass except the US, and the US had a shockingly huge amount of natural resources.

                    Basically Western Civilization had some good ideological points and the capitalist economy was well suited for exploitation of natural resources. We are currently seeing the limits of Western society, the primary limit being the unbounded capacity to support human greed.

                    • (Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday October 03 2017, @12:55AM (2 children)

                      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday October 03 2017, @12:55AM (#576340) Journal

                      We are currently seeing the limits of Western society, the primary limit being the unbounded capacity to support human greed.

                      Sounds like some cognitive dissonance. Somehow unbounded capacity is now a limit. What better sort of society has a larger capacity to support human greed than this "unbounded" one? The societies that can handle human greed are far superior to the ones that can't.

                      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 03 2017, @06:06PM (1 child)

                        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 03 2017, @06:06PM (#576703)

                        Metaphors strain your brain, yeah I get it you have high functioning whateverism. It gives you some pretty incredible focus, but a better analogy is a horse with blinders on.

                        • (Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday October 03 2017, @08:32PM

                          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday October 03 2017, @08:32PM (#576761) Journal

                          Metaphors

                          Right. The creator of a metaphor is not the only one who can exploit it.

                    • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday October 03 2017, @01:47AM

                      Nah, the primary down side of Western society is that when life becomes too easy people start turning into whiny little bitches who want everything done for them.

                      --
                      My rights don't end where your fear begins.
        • (Score: 2) by meustrus on Monday October 02 2017, @10:18PM (4 children)

          by meustrus (4961) on Monday October 02 2017, @10:18PM (#576259)

          It's not about what the shooter believes. It's about what the journalists believe. If the reporters think IS is evil, why the hell are they spreading their propaganda?

          And because people don't seem to understand the power of ideas, let me make this clear: the power of IS is in their ability to convince people around the world that they are a legitimate threat. They must convince Muslims that they are the caliphate, and they must do that by being more than just another violent mountain tribe. It is their goal to inspire lone wolf copycats by showing people that their tactics are effective and meaningful.

          It's why they send us videos of beheadings. They clearly want the world to think of them as barbaric killers. Maybe we shouldn't help them with that.

          --
          If there isn't at least one reference or primary source, it's not +1 Informative. Maybe the underused +1 Interesting?
          • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday October 02 2017, @10:54PM (3 children)

            No, I'm fine with that. It doesn't cost me any sleep letting them die for their cause.

            --
            My rights don't end where your fear begins.
            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 03 2017, @05:17AM (2 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 03 2017, @05:17AM (#576435)

              It doesn't cost me any sleep letting [Muslim zealots] die for their cause

              Has no one among you Militarist Authoritarians ever heard the Jason and the Argonauts story about how when you chop off 1 of the Hydra's heads, 2 grow back?

              Have you never stopped to consider that every time USA.mil kills one of theirs in their occupied land that it creates 10 more zealots among the family, neighbors, and friends?

              -- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]

              • (Score: 1) by rylyeh on Tuesday October 03 2017, @07:43AM (1 child)

                by rylyeh (6726) <reversethis-{moc.liamg} {ta} {htadak}> on Tuesday October 03 2017, @07:43AM (#576482)

                "If men are not afraid to die,
                It is no avail to threaten them with death."

                -Lao Tzu

                The US cannot ignore the new threats it created by it's actions in the Middle East and elsewhere.
                That's why it should not wage wars (military police actions in most cases) unless ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY FOR DEFENSE.

                WWII - required.
                Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq - Not!

                --
                "a vast crenulate shell wherein rode the grey and awful form of primal Nodens, Lord of the Great Abyss."
                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 03 2017, @07:49PM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 03 2017, @07:49PM (#576748)

                  The US cannot ignore the new threats it created by it's action

                  We're largely on the same wavelength.

                  Note here that a pronoun never requires an apostrophe to make it possessive (its, yours, theirs, hers, ours).
                  it's == it is; it has
                  its == belongs to it

                  Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq - Not [necessary]

                  Yup. Everything since September 2, 1945 has been about USAian|Western hegemony.
                  In order to get the full truth, throw in repeated instances of a president's sagging approval numbers.
                  (Only Carter resisted the temptation to do an overt military aggression--though he did plenty of covert stuff e.g. in Latin America.)

                  WWII - required

                  We need to acknowledge that the USAian hegemony thing was going on even back then.
                  A point that is routinely mentioned in the context of Pearl Harbor [google.com] is USA's naval blockade of Japan's trade in petroleum via the Malaccan Strait. [wikimedia.org]

                  Antagonism by USA, rather than engaging in proper diplomacy, was a major factor in the outbreak of WWII.
                  ...and, again, Japan's Imperialism has to be compared to USA's Imperialism (The Philippines[1] had been a colonial possession of USA since the Spanish-American War[2]; Hawaii was invaded and occupied by USAian Marines in the same era).

                  [1] ...the site of much butchery by USA.gov during that occupation.

                  [2] ...yet another war started on false pretenses. [google.com]

                  -- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]

      • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Monday October 02 2017, @06:55PM (3 children)

        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Monday October 02 2017, @06:55PM (#576080) Homepage Journal

        "ideas that led to the shooting in the first place."

        Which ideas? I've not seen a single statement alluding to the shooter's ideas.

        --
        “If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking.” ― George S. Patton on Ukraine
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @08:17PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @08:17PM (#576156)

          The ideas don't matter! What matters is what we do now! How can we spin this to our political advantage Madam Secretary? Oh I see, more of the same BS.

        • (Score: 1) by rylyeh on Tuesday October 03 2017, @10:27AM (1 child)

          by rylyeh (6726) <reversethis-{moc.liamg} {ta} {htadak}> on Tuesday October 03 2017, @10:27AM (#576515)
          This took months of planning and most likely years of anger. He characterized himself as a professional gambler at video texas hold-em. I think every time he lost big, he visualized getting back at all the people who took his money. His father was considered to be a 'psychopath'.
          --
          "a vast crenulate shell wherein rode the grey and awful form of primal Nodens, Lord of the Great Abyss."
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 03 2017, @12:25PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 03 2017, @12:25PM (#576547)

            According to some news I saw this morning, the shooter's father was a convicted bank robber (multiple robberies) and also made a successful jail break, lived under an assumed name for many years until caught.

  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday October 02 2017, @04:28PM (11 children)

    Editorializing: Interesting how media always emphasize ISLAMIC terrorists, but downplay domestic terrorism as psychologically disturbed individual lone-wolfs.

    That'd be because "psychologically disturbed individual lone-wolfs" don't tend to have much of anything in common except being fucked up in the head. Islamic terrorism, by contrast, has their holy book telling them to kill you and me for not believing the same as them.

    --
    My rights don't end where your fear begins.
    • (Score: 1, Flamebait) by jmorris on Monday October 02 2017, @05:43PM (4 children)

      by jmorris (4844) on Monday October 02 2017, @05:43PM (#576017)

      More important, the mitigation strategy is very different between a true random nutjob and a radicalized convert to ISIS, an enraged Bernie Bro over the edge to violence, a Nazi nutter, etc.

      • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Monday October 02 2017, @06:59PM (3 children)

        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Monday October 02 2017, @06:59PM (#576083) Homepage Journal

        Please, define that "very different" bit. A genuine nutjob might be encouraged by any of dozens of terrorist organizations. To them, he is a useful idiot. Lacking any support, the nutjob may go off on his own. But, the nut is a nut, either way.

        --
        “If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking.” ― George S. Patton on Ukraine
        • (Score: 2) by jmorris on Monday October 02 2017, @08:32PM (2 children)

          by jmorris (4844) on Monday October 02 2017, @08:32PM (#576166)

          If you are tracking and infiltrating problematic orgarnizations, like we expect intelligence services to be doing, they can throw off watch lists to local law enforcement, you can run sting operations to take them out before they go operational on their own, etc. Some random nut goes off his meds one day and decides to take a few people to Hell with him there is not so much one can do to prevent it.

          The problem is our civilization model depends on openness to function. We can't make every possible target a fortress with security checks, armed guards and such. And all the guards in the world can't solve the root problem. We have destroyed the social cohesion, sense of respect for order, etc. that make that open society possible. We aren't One Nation anymore, we are a bunch of quarreling tribes occasionally breaking into open shooting.

          I am old enough to remember when you could walk past the local high school and during hunting season see a quarter or more of the vehicles parked being pickup trucks with gun racks, shotguns and rifles in place. Nobody thought this was in the slightest unusual, dangerous or remarkable, many of the trucks probably weren't even locked. It wasn't a problem. Dr. Sowell frequently speaks of his childhood, when he could carry a long gun home from school on the New York City subway system and nobody thought it was noteworthy. It wasn't a problem. Now any of these things would cause a blind panic, the very important question not being raised is; what changed? It should be obvious that the older societies were more stable, more peaceful, more functional compared to $current_year.

          • (Score: 4, Informative) by Runaway1956 on Monday October 02 2017, @08:40PM (1 child)

            by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Monday October 02 2017, @08:40PM (#576174) Homepage Journal

            You remember when . . . .

            I was just drafted into filling a gallon can with gasoline for one my less-bright children. Coming home, I was trapped behind a schoolbus. Strange - when we rode school buses, the driver came to a stop, opened the door, and between 1 and 20 kids would fly out the door, and run in as many different directions. Things have changed. Now, the driver stops, puts that barrier thing across the road, and WAITS until Mama or Papa walks across the road, to the door. When the driver recognizes the parent, or guardian, THEN he opens the door.

            This most certainly is NOT the society that I grew up in.

            --
            “If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking.” ― George S. Patton on Ukraine
            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @11:16PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @11:16PM (#576298)

              Can't let kids run into the street! Can't let them walk a block or they'll get kidnapped! Can't can't can't... can't... ugh, I don't wanna live with these terrified sheeple.

    • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Monday October 02 2017, @06:24PM (5 children)

      by fustakrakich (6150) on Monday October 02 2017, @06:24PM (#576050) Journal

      Oh, c'mon... The Islamic holy book is a simple ledger [cnn.com] like anybody elses.

      --
      Ok, we paid the ransom. Do I get my dog back? REDЯUM
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @08:42PM (4 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @08:42PM (#576175)

        The Islamic holy book is a simple ledger like anybody elses.

        Since your linked article says nothing at all about the Koran specifically, please clarify:

        Is the Koran merely a "simple ledger"? Explain your reasoning and sources.

        Were you trying to be sarcastic? If so, what is the Koran, does it or does it not tell its adherents to kill others for "not believing the same as them", and what are the sources for your claims?

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @10:00PM (3 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @10:00PM (#576241)

          The Koran is offtopic. Terrorism is a business, not a religion.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @10:14PM (2 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @10:14PM (#576255)

            The Koran is offtopic.

            fustakrakich is off-topic. It is my hobby to demonstrate this as if he doesn't respond to my simple and reasonable questions, his lack of depth is exposed. If he tries to respond anyway, history shows that he also will expose himself.

            Until he chooses to educate himself, the only winning move is not to post.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 03 2017, @12:15AM (1 child)

              by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 03 2017, @12:15AM (#576320)

              You are simply being obtuse and absurd, but hey, knock yourself out...

              The Koran is still offtopic in regards to the business of terrorism. Sorry for dropping the stink bomb on your overwrought conspiracy theories.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 13 2017, @08:03AM

                by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 13 2017, @08:03AM (#581628)

                The Koran is still offtopic

                Wait - I'd initially thought you were commenting on the thread as a whole, but did you perhaps fail to recognize that the "Islamic holy book" [soylentnews.org] is the Koran [wikipedia.org]!?

                That would be beyond daft - and spot on character!

  • (Score: 1, Troll) by Phoenix666 on Monday October 02 2017, @04:30PM (43 children)

    by Phoenix666 (552) Subscriber Badge on Monday October 02 2017, @04:30PM (#575956) Journal

    It's also incendiary to play up the affiliations of domestic actors. "Evil Islam" is still an us vs. them frame, despite a few million Muslim Americans.

    Incidents like these, and their regular occurrence, say to me that society is cracking up.

    --
    Washington DC delenda est.
    • (Score: 3, Interesting) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday October 02 2017, @04:41PM (42 children)

      There's a massive difference between your average US Muslim, your average Middle-Eastern Muslim, and jihadists. Your average US Muslim sees terrorist acts against the west and is appalled. Jihadists may be the core enemy but your average Middle-Eastern Muslim is not appalled and is about half likely to have morally supported at least one terrorist group in their lives.

      --
      My rights don't end where your fear begins.
      • (Score: 3, Informative) by Phoenix666 on Monday October 02 2017, @04:54PM (5 children)

        by Phoenix666 (552) Subscriber Badge on Monday October 02 2017, @04:54PM (#575971) Journal

        That might all be so, or not, but the point being discussed was why the American media always plays up Islamic dimensions to these incidents but linguistically minimalizes them to "lone wolf" when it's not. Playing up the "evil Republican" or "evil Democrat" affiliations (for example) of a domestic perpetrator is gonna get half of the country even madder at the other half, and that can escalate. The country's already keyed up to the maximum now, so doing that could be dangerous.

        --
        Washington DC delenda est.
        • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @05:42PM (4 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @05:42PM (#576015)

          The country's already keyed up to the maximum now, ...

          Not true. If the country really were keyed up to the maximum there would be a revolution underway.

          • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Runaway1956 on Monday October 02 2017, @07:01PM (3 children)

            by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Monday October 02 2017, @07:01PM (#576087) Homepage Journal

            Maybe keyed up to near max. We DID see a "peaceful revolution" with the last election. Members of BOTH parties rejected the candidates pushed by their parties.

            --
            “If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking.” ― George S. Patton on Ukraine
            • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @09:40PM (2 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @09:40PM (#576221)

              Then a corrupt, authoritarian buffoon won the election and appointed countless establishment scumbags to his administration. Wow, what a victory against the establishment!

              • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Monday October 02 2017, @09:52PM (1 child)

                by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Monday October 02 2017, @09:52PM (#576231) Homepage Journal

                That's almost what I've been saying since before the election. After the field was narrowed down, our choise was the evil witch, or the court fool.

                I voted for Johnson - but I still say that the court fool is a better choice than the evil witch. The witch would have already committed troops to Syria - a couple divisions at least - and she WOULD HAVE provoked the Russians at every opportunity.

                --
                “If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking.” ― George S. Patton on Ukraine
                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 03 2017, @12:49AM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 03 2017, @12:49AM (#576338)

                  Have you noticed you don't hear much about Iran anymore? HRC would have invaded by now.

      • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @05:00PM (22 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @05:00PM (#575978)

        Average Middle-Eastern Muslim is also likely to have directly or indirectly suffered from the US imperialism. Dead relatives and destroyed governments tend to cause some resentment. If Middle-Easterners overreacted on the similar scale as the US does, the entire West would already be destroyed several times over. Fortunately for us, they don't have the resources to do that...

        • (Score: 3, Informative) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday October 02 2017, @05:47PM (13 children)

          by Azuma Hazuki (5086) Subscriber Badge on Monday October 02 2017, @05:47PM (#576026) Journal

          Precisely. If I were the average Afghani or Iraqi you bet your ass I'd be cheering on ISIS, in the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" sense anyway. Perspective, people!

          --
          I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
          • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday October 02 2017, @06:46PM (2 children)

            I probably would too. I support the home team when someone is trying to kill members of it, their reasons be damned.

            --
            My rights don't end where your fear begins.
            • (Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @08:20PM (1 child)

              by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @08:20PM (#576159)

              Yup, as would I. I would also probably bang little boys and goats, wipe my ass with my left hand, and send my 12 year old wife to the shed once a month. But I'm not from there, and it wouldn't make any of those things right in my eyes. And I thank God every damn day for this.

          • (Score: 1, Flamebait) by Runaway1956 on Monday October 02 2017, @07:03PM (9 children)

            by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Monday October 02 2017, @07:03PM (#576090) Homepage Journal

            Careful. No middle easterner, and probably no Asian, considers the "enemey of mine enemy" as a "friend". They may work together for a common cause, but they will still stab each other in the back, cheerfully.

            --
            “If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking.” ― George S. Patton on Ukraine
            • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday October 02 2017, @09:16PM (8 children)

              by Azuma Hazuki (5086) Subscriber Badge on Monday October 02 2017, @09:16PM (#576201) Journal

              And you know this how? You know, infallibly, the contents of the minds of some 3.5 billion people? Impressive, Miss Cleo...

              --
              I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
              • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Runaway1956 on Monday October 02 2017, @09:39PM (3 children)

                by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Monday October 02 2017, @09:39PM (#576220) Homepage Journal

                Yes, you missed, Cleo.

                A one word answer to your question would be "tribalism". But, you will refuse to understand that. There are no "nations" in the mideast, as we understand nations. Pretty much everyone gives their loyalty first to their tribe, then to some leader that the tribe supports. Syrians don't support "Syria". They are tribal, and the "nation" of "Syria" is pretty much nonsense to them. That concept was pushed up on them by England, and the rest of the colonizing nations.

                But, you won't accept that so try this:
                http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/09/americas-strategy-failing-world-complex-use-enemy-enemy-friend-strategy.html [washingtonsblog.com]

                The ancient idea that “The Enemy of My Enemy Is My Friend” is widely attributed to the Arabs. But it is actually much older … It originated in the 4th century B.C. in India. Kautilya – the “Indian Machiavelli” – wrote about the idea in the Sanskrit military book, the Arthashastra.

                https://www.csis.org/analysis/iraq-enemy-my-enemy-not-my-friend [csis.org]

                The proverb that the “enemy of my enemy is my friend” is not an Arab proverb, it is a Sanskrit proverb that predates the Prophet Muhammad by roughly 1,000 years. It is also a proverb with a dismal history in practice. In case after case, the “enemy of my enemy” has actually proven to have been an enemy at the time or turned into one in the future. The Mongols did not save Europe from the Turks, and the Soviet Union was scarcely an ally after the end of World War II.

                ____________________________________

                Recent history has proven that whenever we believe that the enemy of our enemy is our friend, we make fools of ourselves. Time and time again, our "friends" have turned against us. Let's stop being fools, and stop believing that everyone who fights against Tyrant X must be friends. We are not. At BEST, we are merely allies, until such time as it becomes invonvenient to remain allies. At worst, our ally is secretly plotting with others to kill us as soon as our usefulness has ended.

                Only the naive can possibly believe that everyone who resists North Korea are all members of one big happy family.

                --
                “If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking.” ― George S. Patton on Ukraine
                • (Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday October 03 2017, @04:25AM (2 children)

                  by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday October 03 2017, @04:25AM (#576421) Journal

                  In case after case, the “enemy of my enemy” has actually proven to have been an enemy at the time or turned into one in the future. The Mongols did not save Europe from the Turks, and the Soviet Union was scarcely an ally after the end of World War II.

                  The Turks weren't enemies of European powers at the time of the Mongolian invasions. In fact, a fair portion of the Mongolian army were recruited/drafted proto-Turks (anyone who could ride and handle a bow in the saddle was guaranteed to become part of the Mongolian army, as I understand it). A better example are the rebellions that happened after Attila the Hun died in 453 AD. Some of the victors and their subsequent descendants were nasty pieces [wikipedia.org] of work.

                  But the thing to remember here is that even when you know someone will be in future conflict with you, it can still make sense to ally in a present conflict. The Second World War is a good example of that. Fighting the USSR at the same time as Nazi Germany would have been folly for the US and UK to do. Plus, it would have brought the risk that the USSR allies with Nazi Germany (using the same enemies of enemies strategy) to defeat the US/UK Commonwealth alliance. We certainly did not make fools out of ourselves by defeating the worse evil first.

                  • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday October 03 2017, @01:56PM (1 child)

                    by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday October 03 2017, @01:56PM (#576583) Homepage Journal

                    Key word, though, in your post, is "alliance". Not "friends", but "allies". We were allied with Communist Russia, or the Soviet. We were never "friends" of the Soviet. They never believed that to be so, nor did we. We were, clearly, just allied, for the purpose of defeating a common enemy.

                    --
                    “If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking.” ― George S. Patton on Ukraine
                    • (Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday October 03 2017, @08:37PM

                      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday October 03 2017, @08:37PM (#576762) Journal
                      I doubt anyone employing enemies of enemies rationales at the federal level makes that mistake either. I think rather the problem is that the US has so often wanted dirty results without getting their own hands dirty in the process (and often with the intent to save money or effort in the process). The proxies used to do so are naturally sketchy and unreliable.
              • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Monday October 02 2017, @10:25PM (3 children)

                by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Monday October 02 2017, @10:25PM (#576266) Homepage Journal

                Please read this page. You'll gag on the partisanship, and you'll probably hate the man for badmouthing Obama and Clinton. But, his first paragraphs put that whole enemy of mine enemy into perspective.

                https://www.steynonline.com/6839/the-enemy-of-my-enemy [steynonline.com]

                "The Congo Civil War raged for most of the first decade of this century uncovered by CNN and The New York Times for want of any way to blame it on George W Bush. Among the estimated six million dead, many were eaten. The two parties to the conflict agreed on very little except that pygmies make an excellent entrée. Both sides hunted down them down as if they were the drive-thru fast-food of big game. While regarding them as sub-human, they believed that if you roasted their flesh and ate it you would gain magical powers."

                Odd, isn't it, that our inclusive left media doesn't include much of the bloodshed in Africa. Rwanda, Congo, South Africa, Ethiopia - the list goes on and on. But, hey, it's the Dark Continent, no one wants to turn the light on, do they? Oh, but - let's not forget South Africa!! What's his name, Nelson Mandela, became president after decades in jails and prisons, right? All without a bunch of killing, right? Uh-huh - right.

                --
                “If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking.” ― George S. Patton on Ukraine
                • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday October 02 2017, @10:59PM (1 child)

                  by Azuma Hazuki (5086) Subscriber Badge on Monday October 02 2017, @10:59PM (#576288) Journal

                  You make a lot of assumptions you really shouldn't. Just to pick one, I am not a fan of Obama or either Clinton, and would like to see every president we've had since and including Nixon strung up for war crimes. If you think I didn't know what kind of diplomatic Hell middle-east tribalism causes, you're also out of line. Try a little charity now and then, will you? Not everyone on the planet who disagrees with you is ill-informed.

                  --
                  I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
                • (Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 03 2017, @01:38AM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 03 2017, @01:38AM (#576361)

                  Odd, isn't it, that our inclusive left media doesn't include much of the bloodshed in Africa. Rwanda, Congo, South Africa, Ethiopia - the list goes on and on.

                  Farther to the left than CNN and the New York Times, there is coverage:

                  http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2009/04/remembering-rwanda-and-clinton-failure/ (Rwanda)
                  http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2003/01/out-madness-matriarchy/ (Rwanda)
                  http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2011/09/what-you-need-know-about-famine-horn-africa-backgrounder/ (Ethiopia)
                  http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2011/10/us-drone-warfare-ethiopia-edition/ (Ethiopia)
                  http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2011/09/congo-dodd-frank-conflict-minerals/ (Congo)
                  http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2011/09/bosco-ntaganda-congo-warlord/ (Congo)
                  http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2011/09/fear-loathing-congo-war-criminal/ (Congo)
                  http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2008/11/congo-conflict-endangered-gorillas-are-pawns-0/ (Congo)

                  https://www.truthdig.com/articles/the-invisible-war/ (Congo)
                  https://www.truthdig.com/articles/ethiopias-becoming-more-homophobic-as-we-speak/ (Ethiopia)
                  https://www.truthdig.com/articles/ethiopian-troops-enter-somalia/ (Ethiopia)
                  https://www.truthdig.com/articles/ethiopian-strongman-zenawi-dies/ (Ethiopia)
                  https://www.truthdig.com/articles/rwanda-says-france-participated-in-genocide/ (Rwanda)
                  https://www.truthdig.com/articles/david-rieff-on-africas-world-war/ (Rwanda)

                  https://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0417-04.htm (Rwanda)
                  https://www.commondreams.org/views/2014/05/16/why-dont-we-care-about-congos-dead (Congo)
                  https://www.commondreams.org/views/2008/01/24/drc-invisible-war (Congo)
                  https://www.commondreams.org/views/2016/01/24/ethiopias-invisible-crisis (Ethiopia)
                  https://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0525-04.htm (Ethiopia)

                  https://www.democracynow.org/2007/10/8/they_are_destroying_the_female_species (Congo)
                  https://www.democracynow.org/2012/11/30/congo_humanitarian_crisis_worsens_amidst_renewed (Congo)
                  https://www.democracynow.org/2008/1/23/corporations_reaping_millions_as_congo_suffers (Congo)
                  https://www.democracynow.org/2008/11/13/congelese_citizens_caught_in_the_crossfire (Congo)
                  https://www.democracynow.org/2017/6/21/headlines/un_militia_linked_to_drc_committing_human_rights_abuses_in_kasai (Congo)
                  https://www.democracynow.org/2017/4/25/headlines/congo_video_appears_to_show_killing_of_two_un_investigators (Congo)
                  https://www.democracynow.org/2016/10/11/headlines/ethiopia_prime_minister_declares_state_of_emergency_amid_protests (Ethiopia)
                  https://www.democracynow.org/2011/7/22/horn_of_africa_famine_millions_at (Ethiopia)
                  https://www.democracynow.org/2016/9/7/headlines/ethiopia_23_die_in_disputed_circumstances_at_addis_ababa_prison (Ethiopia)
                  https://www.democracynow.org/2014/4/7/refusing_to_call_it_genocide_documents (Rwanda)
                  https://www.democracynow.org/2014/4/7/20_years_later_rwanda_commemorates_genocide (Rwanda)
                  https://www.democracynow.org/2012/11/30/congo_humanitarian_crisis_worsens_amidst_renewed (Rwanda)
                  https://www.democracynow.org/2010/8/31/draft_un_report_accuses_rwandan_troops (Rwanda)
                  https://www.democracynow.org/2017/2/10/headlines/south_africa_fistfights_erupt_at_president_zumas_national_address (South Africa)

                  http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/30553-rwanda-how-to-deal-with-a-million-genocide-suspects (Rwanda)
                  http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/23017-us-role-in-rwandan-genocide-a-look-at-rwandan-politics-then-and-now (Rwanda)
                  http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/24034-hate-as-a-contagion-the-role-of-media-in-the-rwandan-genocide (Rwanda)
                  http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/24374-the-life-and-crimes-of-war-criminal-bosco-ntaganda (Rwanda)

                  What's his name, Nelson Mandela, became president after decades in jails and prisons, right? All without a bunch of killing, right? Uh-huh - right.

                  People were killed in the struggle against apartheid. Who says otherwise?

                  New York Times on Mandela [nytimes.com]:

                  He was at various times a black nationalist and a nonracialist, an opponent of armed struggle and an advocate of violence, a hothead and the calmest man in the room, a consumer of Marxist tracts and an admirer of Western democracy, a close partner of Communists and, in his presidency, a close partner of South Africa’s powerful capitalists.

        • (Score: 3, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday October 02 2017, @06:48PM (3 children)

          Don't care. If they're trying to kill Americans or supporting people who do, fuck them. They want to discuss politics, we can do that. They want to kill people, we can do that too. Extremely well.

          --
          My rights don't end where your fear begins.
          • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @07:33PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @07:33PM (#576124)

            TMB embraces the SJWs!! Who woulda thunk it :D

            Snark aside, the solidarity these horrors create is at least a tiny bit of silver lining. Sadly it is so easily manipulated into further screwing us over.

          • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @07:48PM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @07:48PM (#576137)

            Because discussing politics with the US worked so well in the past. If you're lucky, US will prop up a *nice* dictator.

            The US fucks with entire regions for decades, and when the natives finally snap and start hitting back, the US goes all "fire and fury in righteous anger", misrepresenting retaliation as unprovoked assault.

            They're wrong, but that doesn't make you right. You in particular, TMB, seem to be as bloodthirsty as any warlord.

        • (Score: 4, Interesting) by VLM on Monday October 02 2017, @06:53PM (1 child)

          by VLM (445) Subscriber Badge on Monday October 02 2017, @06:53PM (#576077)

          Fortunately for us, they don't have the resources to do that.

          Actually, they do, which was one of the 9/11 conspiracy narratives.

          In Israel every time a muslim spontaneously explodes, there's like 10 random shooting in the air, for each of those 10 theres a hundred kids throwing rocks at cars.

          As per the drug import situation and illegal alien situation literally all "They" need to do is scrape up a couple hundred bucks and they can do what they want to us. That basically no one does plus or minute a probably false flag 9/11 and the occasional gay night club here and there kind of says something about the actual threat level.

          It might be one of those "white people have so much agency its oozing out of their pores" checked privilege things but probably all races have enough gumption to mess with us if they want, which approx none of them do despite billions of them. I mean, tens of millions of illegal aliens got in to work at mcdonalds and in the fields, I would assume more than a handful of arabs could figure out how to take airplane rides or drive "assault buses" if they really wanted which apparently they do not because they surely are not despite us provoking the hell out of them.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @11:26PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @11:26PM (#576302)

            VLM this post seems really odd, I would have figured you as more of a "fuck islam glass the place over" kind of person. This post is reasonable and well grounded in reality, wtf? Can you please export this thinking to your fellow conservatives, maybe soon we can get enough political clout to reverse the clusterfuck of the early 2000s?

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @07:11PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @07:11PM (#576100)

          I agree this is only salting the wound. But I don't agree with the implication that this is the cause. Islam has a major problem with violence. Even between Muslims, Shia and Sunni to this day are killing one another over a disagreement on who should succeed Mohammed after his death... 1400 years ago. Maybe that is something more fundamental. Islam itself seems to be stuck about 1400 years in the past. You can find awful things in all religions' texts. Deute|ronmy 13:6-11 [biblegateway.com] clearly says to kill anybody who encourages you to apostatize by stoning them to death, and then make sure everybody knows about it so they're scared and won't do such an evil thing. Literally. But the thing is, nobody takes that crap seriously. By contrast the whole of the Koran and side writings are, to this day, treated as the literal word of god by many Muslims. And those words tell people to do incredibly awful things.

          There are many reasons for the more literal take on Islam today, but I think that alone is the root cause.

          As an aside you can also look to countries that have treated Muslims kindly. There's hardly a country in the world that has ever had any significant number of Islamic individuals that did not begin to experience Islamic terrorism and insurgencies. Sweden has done absolutely every single thing they possibly could for Muslim individuals and refugees. They've been rewarded with terrorism. If you're not Islamic you're the enemy. If you're Islamic, but not the right type of Islamic, you're the enemy. The religion has fundamental issues.

          • (Score: 2) by infodragon on Tuesday October 03 2017, @02:26PM

            by infodragon (3509) on Tuesday October 03 2017, @02:26PM (#576595)

            Most people don't realize that the religions surrounding the Jews, at that time, involved human sacrifice... So those people attempting to convince you to worship other gods secretly were in reality asking you to murder others. There was a very good chance that if you refused you would be killed otherwise you could expose their desires. That text you link to is permission for self defense. Not to mention, there is a significant amount of context missing from this from the oral tradition.

            You have done what so many others have done to pervert and twist religious text, take something out of context to make a point.

            --
            Don't settle for shampoo, demand real poo!
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @05:02PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @05:02PM (#575980)

        A reasonably balanced viewpoint. I guess it comes down to human nature and being afraid of things that are different / scary.

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by takyon on Monday October 02 2017, @05:24PM (10 children)

        by takyon (881) <{takyon} {at} {soylentnews.org}> on Monday October 02 2017, @05:24PM (#575999) Journal

        One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

        --
        [SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
        • (Score: 4, Informative) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday October 02 2017, @06:40PM (6 children)

          Actually, I think the modern usage is based on whether civilian or military targets are your target of choice. If that's the standard then they're not remotely similar.

          --
          My rights don't end where your fear begins.
          • (Score: 3, Interesting) by takyon on Monday October 02 2017, @06:44PM (5 children)

            by takyon (881) <{takyon} {at} {soylentnews.org}> on Monday October 02 2017, @06:44PM (#576070) Journal

            In a war of ideas, everyone is a military target! :^) 🔫🔫🔫

            --
            [SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
            • (Score: 0, Offtopic) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday October 02 2017, @06:51PM (4 children)

              You're saying I should shoot Deucalion for being a dirty socialist? Well okay but I'm not taking on the IRCOP/CEO jobs if I do. Bytram can do em.

              --
              My rights don't end where your fear begins.
              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @07:18PM (3 children)

                by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @07:18PM (#576108)

                -1 for bad taste (can we haz this mod plz?)

                • (Score: 2) by takyon on Monday October 02 2017, @07:21PM (2 children)

                  by takyon (881) <{takyon} {at} {soylentnews.org}> on Monday October 02 2017, @07:21PM (#576112) Journal

                  -1 Off Topic is probably the one you want.

                  --
                  [SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @07:35PM

                    by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @07:35PM (#576126)

                    We need a -2 Meta Off Topic :P

                  • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @08:51PM

                    by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @08:51PM (#576184)

                    -1 TMBulls#!t would be nice.

        • (Score: 3, Funny) by EvilSS on Monday October 02 2017, @07:56PM (2 children)

          by EvilSS (1456) Subscriber Badge on Monday October 02 2017, @07:56PM (#576140)
          And one man's freedom fighter is another man's dinner.
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @10:12PM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @10:12PM (#576253)

            The Soylent must flow!

            • (Score: 1) by rylyeh on Tuesday October 03 2017, @02:25AM

              by rylyeh (6726) <reversethis-{moc.liamg} {ta} {htadak}> on Tuesday October 03 2017, @02:25AM (#576381)
              Thank you Harry Harrison!
              Soylent green was one of the only early ( I was born in 1966) sci-fi movies to show what a runaway greenhouse effect would be like.
              The 'Lathe of Heaven' from LeGuin also depicted Portland Oregon as a sand covered dessert!
              "It's PEOPLE!!!"
              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent_Green [wikipedia.org]
              --
              "a vast crenulate shell wherein rode the grey and awful form of primal Nodens, Lord of the Great Abyss."
      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by jmorris on Monday October 02 2017, @05:37PM

        by jmorris (4844) on Monday October 02 2017, @05:37PM (#576012)

        Your average US Muslim sees terrorist acts against the west and is appalled.

        Yes, but when double digit percentages of American Mulims, ie. those actually holding citizenship, are willing to admit to pollsters they support violent jihad against the U.S., support the imposition of Sharia, etc. I'm not really comforted by the fact they aren't yet a majority as they are in pretty much every Muslim majority country. Even 10% is way to many, there is simply zero chance this doesn't end badly.

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