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posted by takyon on Friday October 27 2017, @11:15PM   Printer-friendly
from the freedonia dept.

This afternoon, Catalonia declared independence. At the same time, Spain invoked article 155, to strip Catalonia from its governing powers putting it under direct rule from the federal government. A vote for independence was raised in Catalonian parliament, with part of parliament leaving before the vote on independence started. The motion declaring independence was approved with 70 in favor, 10 against, and two abstentions of the normal 135 total.

From RT: https://www.rt.com/news/407956-catalan-parliament-votes-independence/
From Aljazeera: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/10/catalan-parliament-begins-vote-independence-171027115908493.html
From BBC: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41780116

It will be interesting to see how things unfold. In my opinion, Madrid using violence to stop a referendum gave it the legality they later claim the referendum didn't have. The lack of dialogue paved the way into the only possible outcome, Catalonia declaring independence and Madrid denying it. Whatever happens next, I hope will be peaceful. As to how the EU reacts, I'm hoping they ask for an official referendum, and whatever the outcome, pledges that both Catalonia and Spain will be able to remain in the EU if they desire. That may release tensions a bit.


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  • (Score: 3, Interesting) by takyon on Friday October 27 2017, @11:38PM (42 children)

    by takyon (881) <reversethis-{gro ... s} {ta} {noykat}> on Friday October 27 2017, @11:38PM (#588466) Journal

    I'm hoping they ask for an official referendum, and whatever the outcome, pledges that both Catalonia and Spain will be able to remain in the EU if they desire.

    The way it works, Catalonia will start outside of the EU no matter what.

    https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/countries_en [europa.eu]

    Becoming a member of the EU is a complex procedure which does not happen overnight. Once an applicant country meets the conditions for membership, it must implement EU rules and regulations in all areas.

    Any country that satisfies the conditions for membership can apply. These conditions are known as the ‘Copenhagen criteria’ and include a free-market economy, a stable democracy and the rule of law, and the acceptance of all EU legislation, including of the euro.

    A country wishing to join the EU submits a membership application to the Council, which asks the Commission to assess the applicant’s ability to meet the Copenhagen criteria. If the Commission’s opinion is positive, the Council must then agree upon a negotiating mandate. Negotiations are then formally opened on a subject-by-subject basis.

    Due to the huge volume of EU rules and regulations each candidate country must adopt as national law, the negotiations take time to complete. The candidates are supported financially, administratively and technically during this pre-accession period.

    --
    [SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
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  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by bob_super on Friday October 27 2017, @11:45PM (27 children)

    by bob_super (1357) on Friday October 27 2017, @11:45PM (#588467)

    Because they are currently in the EU, most regulations and treaties should be a trivial exercise to validate.
    BUT, there are many countries with their own (rich) independentists who don't want a local repeat, and therefore will prevent the process from being easy, to set a clear example. A bit like setting an example with Brexit is critically important for the future of the EU.

    • (Score: 0, Flamebait) by Ethanol-fueled on Friday October 27 2017, @11:49PM (24 children)

      by Ethanol-fueled (2792) on Friday October 27 2017, @11:49PM (#588468) Homepage

      Why would anybody want to join the EU only to be maimed and raped by Islamic savages?

      • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @12:21AM (19 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @12:21AM (#588472)

        More stupidity from you. Stop that!

        • (Score: 0, Offtopic) by Ethanol-fueled on Saturday October 28 2017, @12:33AM (18 children)

          by Ethanol-fueled (2792) on Saturday October 28 2017, @12:33AM (#588476) Homepage

          I think you're the guy from Slashdot who accused me of being racist for posting the lyrics to Frank Zappa's You are what you is when discussing then-president Barack Obama*. You must have been horrified to bail from there only to find me here.

          AKA Baraq Hussein Soetoro, Indonesian Citizen, CIA plant, fifth-columnist, and propagator of radical Islam

          • (Score: 1, Insightful) by aristarchus on Saturday October 28 2017, @01:04AM (6 children)

            by aristarchus (2645) on Saturday October 28 2017, @01:04AM (#588490) Journal

            Everyone is horrified and appalled to find you anywhere, Eth. Enjoy being raped by the Muslin sedges!

            • (Score: 4, Insightful) by aristarchus on Saturday October 28 2017, @08:02AM (5 children)

              by aristarchus (2645) on Saturday October 28 2017, @08:02AM (#588605) Journal

              Such interesting mods on this comment, that I am compelled to comment on the mods!

              First, welcome! You are all Soylentils tried and true, else mod points not you would have!

              Second: What the F**** are some of you doing? Does anyone disagree with the veracity of the post? No? (Well, of course not, it is Ethanol_fueled, after all.) So you should not have downmodded a downmod on the Ethanol_fueled, because, well, true???

              Third: Doubtless Eth read this as "California Declared Independence", which would put him in a world of hurt, since San Fran rules would apply! C'mon, Eth! Show us you alter-ego, trans-sexual self! We can deal with it!

              Fourth: If you downmod, The Mightty Buzzardiness might just tattle on you, as he as on me! Nothing is actually anonymous on SoylentNews, especially the anonymous stuff. Did you not see what happened to the aristarchus? Spam modded! Down modded! TMB modded! And why, all because aristarchus is not Ethanol_fueled. That is the only reason I can see. The only reason any rational member of SoylentNews can see. So it must be, SoylentNews is anti-semitic, and thus along the TMB lines, Nazi sympathizing. See how easy it was to connect the dots! You are probably a Nazi! Someone will be along shortly to punch you in the face, no charge!

              • (Score: 1, Troll) by Runaway1956 on Sunday October 29 2017, @03:17AM (4 children)

                by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Sunday October 29 2017, @03:17AM (#588900) Journal

                You just don't learn. Trolling is trolling. Flapping your gums to call people names is trolling. At this point in time you are either the foremost, or the second leading troll on Soylent. It's a pretty close race, really, but you seem to choose to troll more people than the other contender for first place. What is it about trolling that you fail to understand? It's really pretty simple. When you have a valid point to make, make it. Making a post just to mock, or denigrate a fellow Soylentil is trolling. So, you are both the number one (or two) troll, as well as the number one mod bomber. Aren't you proud of yourself? It's not just anybody who can intentionally alienate more than half of a population, then try to act like the victim. Are you kin to Adolph Hitler? You do realize that Hitler was just trying to protect his people, right? He was the victim all along.

                I can't help wondering if you have ANY friends.

                Ya know - it's almost like you have an addiction. I keep your profile page open, and check on it from time to time because I enjoy troll modding you. You'll go for a few days, posting stuff that really isn't troll material, and I am disappointed. I can't mod you down, if you don't post troll shit. Then, you do some binge trolling, and I can hit you with max troll mods for two or three days in a row.

                Once again - if you value your karma as much as you claim to value it, then just stop trolling.

                Do I think that Eth is an admirable person? No - not really. Eth is a pretty smart person, and he is often insightful. But, Eth has some ideas that I find deplorable. I don't admire the man - but I don't spend my time here trolling him over those ideas that I dislike.

                You? I suspect that your next incarnation will be as a trolling motor on some redneck's fishing rig. Karma, man. Karma. Imagine all that cheap rotgut booze being spilled all over your stained cowling, while trying to push a boat full of lard assed redneck into a good fishing zone.

                • (Score: 2, Flamebait) by aristarchus on Sunday October 29 2017, @06:06AM (3 children)

                  by aristarchus (2645) on Sunday October 29 2017, @06:06AM (#588948) Journal

                  Runaway, you could just admit that you have no idea where Catalonia is. It would be better than all this fluster trying to cover up your basic American ignorance. And once again, I am quite sure that all Soylentils are quite happy that once again you have shared your opinion on something, since your opinion is, well, your opinion, and we are not at all sure why it should interest anyone else, but evidently you think that what you think is somehow important in the larger scheme of things.

                      So, what about those JFK papers? And what about the Huckabee being the only woman Trump has not sexually harassed, so she says all the others are lies? And what about those CERN scientists and the fact that the universe should not exist? Runaway! You are wasting your time ragging on me! Get out there and enlighten the world about what your average over-the-hill redneck hillbilly ex-trucker Arkansawan thinks about the issues of the day!!! Kardashian pregnancies?

                  • (Score: 2, Funny) by Runaway1956 on Sunday October 29 2017, @09:50AM (2 children)

                    by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Sunday October 29 2017, @09:50AM (#588977) Journal

                    There are none so blind as he who will not see. Stop trolling, and you can stop the down mods. And, no, contructive criticism is not trolling - but I guess you got your jollies by downmodding that post.

                    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by aristarchus on Sunday October 29 2017, @11:21AM (1 child)

                      by aristarchus (2645) on Sunday October 29 2017, @11:21AM (#589001) Journal

                      Stop taking the bait, you complete and utter moron! My god, Runaway! You have such thin skin, for such a tough dude! Or is it that you cannot understand what is going on here? You are allying yourself with enemies of the United States of America! You are a traitor, man! Time to step back, to realize that political correctness is what we used to call "manners", and that racism is endemic in the American South. These two things would be steps in the right direction. Oh, and Eth? You may not realize that I am Jewish. Talk like his killed my relatives in Germany. I have no tolerance for it. And if you defend his anti-semitism, well, you should beware of Jew-Bears, too. And Drop-bears. And Gummi-bears and probably armed bears. You bear-hater, you.

          • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @01:14AM (8 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @01:14AM (#588492)

            I'm pretty sure you don't do much thinking at all. You're proudly the stupidest person on this site and that kind of stupidity needs to be called out.

            • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Geotti on Saturday October 28 2017, @01:25AM (7 children)

              by Geotti (1146) on Saturday October 28 2017, @01:25AM (#588496) Journal

              Disagree. Ethanol clearly isn't stupid, he just has a different preconception than most users here. And I must say that even though most of the time I'm appalled by his trolling or racism, sometimes he posts rather refreshing comments. So please, if you must criticize him, do so properly and not by calling him names. You can also use the moderation function...

              • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Phoenix666 on Saturday October 28 2017, @03:26AM

                by Phoenix666 (552) on Saturday October 28 2017, @03:26AM (#588545) Journal

                He's not stupid. He can shine if he wants to. He trolls intentionally. It's too bad. The world would be better with his authentic wit than the dull caricature he constructs.

                --
                Washington DC delenda est.
              • (Score: 3, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @08:20AM (4 children)

                by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @08:20AM (#588611)

                Disagree. Ethanol clearly isn't stupid, he just has a different preconception than most users here.

                Oh, so that is what the kids these days are calling it! "Differentially preconceptioned!" Sound so much better than "racist retard", or "bassackward plenury of idiocy". All those still apply, of course. My point is, it is not so clear the Eth is not just plain and simple stupid, racist and only has a job because, like John McCain, he has relatives in high places that afford him the luxury of being a troll on the internets. Mostly, however, if any of us were to meat Eth in the face (opps, typo), we would have to punch him in the face, at least. Fucking Nazi!

                • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Sunday October 29 2017, @03:21AM (1 child)

                  by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Sunday October 29 2017, @03:21AM (#588904) Journal

                  Your assumption that Eth is stupid only cripples you. From a military perspective, one should never underestimate the enemy. And, listen to you - just because you disagree with a man's positions, you assume that he is stupid.

                  An impartial observier might conclude that Eth is smarter than you are.

                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 29 2017, @06:54AM

                    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 29 2017, @06:54AM (#588961)

                    Eth is not an enemy. He is an idiot. I expect a certain level of competence in my enemies. This is why I also loves me some Runaway! Too stupid to be a threat! Battle of wits with an unarmed opponent!

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 29 2017, @08:53AM (1 child)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 29 2017, @08:53AM (#588967)

                  like John McCain, he has relatives in high places that afford him the luxury of being a troll on the internets

                  You are comparing an internet troll like Ethanol, to someone that has spend quite a few years of his life trying to serve his country? Really?

                  John McCain is one of the few honourable members of Senate. He actually stands by his principles and his values. Comparing him to Ethanol is really fucked up.

                  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Ethanol-fueled on Sunday October 29 2017, @04:23PM

                    by Ethanol-fueled (2792) on Sunday October 29 2017, @04:23PM (#589081) Homepage

                    John McCain is a senile old traitor who, without his family connections, would be rotting in Leavenworth for high treason.

              • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @03:38PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @03:38PM (#588698)

                At best he is amusing for the first few times. Amusing in a "monkey throwing shit" type of way. After the first few posts he is stupid all the way.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @01:25AM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @01:25AM (#588495)

            Baraq Hussein Soetoro, Indonesian Citizen, CIA plant, fifth-columnist, and propagator of radical Islam

            Haha! His true name [wikipedia.org] keeps getting better!

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @10:49AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @10:49AM (#588629)

              I thought his name was Baroque and that EF was off somewhere studying Eunuchs.

      • (Score: 0, Flamebait) by GDX on Saturday October 28 2017, @06:02AM (2 children)

        by GDX (1950) on Saturday October 28 2017, @06:02AM (#588590)

        Being Catalonia the part of Spain with most muslins outside Ceuta an Melilla and Islamic radicals, the rapes are going to be the national sport if the secession give fruit.

      • (Score: 1, Flamebait) by turgid on Sunday October 29 2017, @02:50PM

        by turgid (4318) Subscriber Badge on Sunday October 29 2017, @02:50PM (#589043) Journal

        Why would anyone want to live in the USA, to be bled dry and worked to death to make the super-rich even richer? Or shot by a lunatic spraying random people with bullets because it's his Constitutional right?

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @05:18AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @05:18AM (#588582)

      If an example must be planned and set against Britain for brexit, exactly what, objectively, do you believe the value of the EU's future to be?

    • (Score: 2) by maxwell demon on Saturday October 28 2017, @07:21AM

      by maxwell demon (1608) on Saturday October 28 2017, @07:21AM (#588600) Journal

      Actually all that doesn't matter: For a country to join the EU, all EU members have to agree with it, including Spain. I think there's a snowball's chance in hell that Spain would accept an independent Catalonia in the EU.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by tibman on Friday October 27 2017, @11:57PM (1 child)

    by tibman (134) Subscriber Badge on Friday October 27 2017, @11:57PM (#588470)

    They are still part of the EU because the EU doesn't recognize Catalonia to be independent. Catalonia is still part of Spain and Spain is a member of the EU : ) Catalonia is the only "country" that says it is independent. If the EU treats Catalonians any differently than citizens of Spain then that would probably be illegal (for the EU). Unless of course the EU recognizes Catalonia as not being part of Spain. This should be interesting!

    --
    SN won't survive on lurkers alone. Write comments.
    • (Score: 2) by Unixnut on Saturday October 28 2017, @08:20AM

      by Unixnut (5779) on Saturday October 28 2017, @08:20AM (#588612)

      > Unless of course the EU recognizes Catalonia as not being part of Spain.

      The EU cannot recognise a country as being part of another, or not. It is not within its scope, as it is not a sovereign entity.

      When Kosovo unilaterally declared independence against the wishes of the original country (Serbia), the EU clearly stated recognising independence was beyond its remit, and left it to the EU states to formulate a recognition response. Some recognised Kosovo, some (including Spain) didn't.

      So the EU already has defined its attitude to such unilateral declarations of independence, and there shouldn't be much surprise. An independent Catalonia will have to live in a world of being a semi state (Like North Cyprus, Kosovo, Palestine, South Ossetia,Transnistria, etc...). Not fully sovereign, but "independent" in the sense they can rule their little territory as they desire (assuming Spain doesn't either recognise Catalonia as independent, or crushes the rebellion and reasserts control, of course).

  • (Score: 2) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Saturday October 28 2017, @12:51AM (10 children)

    by MichaelDavidCrawford (2339) Subscriber Badge <mdcrawford@gmail.com> on Saturday October 28 2017, @12:51AM (#588484) Homepage Journal

    the result was that none of the coup plotters got the death penalty.

    Or hadn't the last I heard. The dictator of Turkey promised to retroactively reinstate it.

    It's going to be a good long time before Turkey is accepted by the EU.

    --
    Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
    • (Score: 5, Informative) by Grishnakh on Saturday October 28 2017, @01:23AM (9 children)

      by Grishnakh (2831) on Saturday October 28 2017, @01:23AM (#588494)

      It's going to be a good long time before Turkey is accepted by the EU.

      Hopefully never. They're not a fit for the EU in any way. Maybe if the westernmost piece (which includes Istanbul) seceded from the rest of Turkey and asked to join, but the rest of it has no more place in the EU than Saudi Arabia or Somalia.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @02:10AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @02:10AM (#588515)

        Last I checked Sweden was still in the EU. Shouldnt talk bad about Somalis

      • (Score: 1) by Ethanol-fueled on Saturday October 28 2017, @02:58AM (3 children)

        by Ethanol-fueled (2792) on Saturday October 28 2017, @02:58AM (#588535) Homepage

        The convenient relationship between the Western world and Turkey, like other relationships of convenience, depends on the relationships between the United States and Iran and Russia.

        • (Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Saturday October 28 2017, @03:12AM (2 children)

          by Grishnakh (2831) on Saturday October 28 2017, @03:12AM (#588539)

          Well it looks like Turkey is cozying up to Russia these days.

          • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @04:43AM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @04:43AM (#588571)

            Given that the US has a large nuclear warhead stockpile (bombs, or ICBMs? I have never been clear on that.) in Turkey, it really is in America, as well as the EU's best interest to decide their feelings on Turkey, rather than keep lalalaing with their fingers in their ears as Turkey becomes further extremist.

            Then again if you look at Shinzo Abe's party's landslide victories in Japan, this may very well be what they are wanting so that there will be a new world war to help increase they military defense spending budget. It'd be nice to believe everybody in power wasn't big on warmongering, but just based on actions the past few years, whether actual military action or legislation making it easier for countries to go to war, it seems like far too many people are 'in on it'.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @07:35AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @07:35AM (#588602)

              I think that you're getting to the core of what happened in my original timeline. This timeline makes it clear that even TPP/TTIP/TISA wasn't the root cause of World War 3. When President Clinton rammed that through, that was (we had thought) the spark for the market crash and the 2018 riots, giving BRICS a plausible reason to make their move away from the US dollar.

              I expect that in a few months I will be able to see the mirror image play out in this timeline. This is truly fascinating.

      • (Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Saturday October 28 2017, @03:36AM (3 children)

        by Phoenix666 (552) on Saturday October 28 2017, @03:36AM (#588547) Journal

        Is it that limited? The coastal areas and Cappadocia seem pretty mild too.

        An EU with Turkey as a member would make it something much more special and transcendant, but it is true it's hard to imagine it when the EU can't even get its act together on matters like Brexit, the Scottish referendum, or Catalonian independence. Europeans can preen, and they do often scoff at the inadequate civilization of others, but when it comes down to it they are as parochial and inflexible as anyone else. Europe will never be greater than it is unless it can overcome those ontological limitations.

        --
        Washington DC delenda est.
  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @02:53AM

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @02:53AM (#588532)

    from the Copenhagen criteria: [europa.eu]

    Membership requires that candidate country has achieved stability of institutions guaranteeing democracy, the rule of law, human rights, respect for and protection of minorities, the existence of a functioning market economy as well as the capacity to cope with competitive pressure and market forces within the Union.

    Spain got grandfathered in: the accession of Spain to the EC happened in 1985 but the criteria weren't formulated until 1993 as part of the creation of the EU.