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posted by takyon on Friday October 27 2017, @11:15PM   Printer-friendly
from the freedonia dept.

This afternoon, Catalonia declared independence. At the same time, Spain invoked article 155, to strip Catalonia from its governing powers putting it under direct rule from the federal government. A vote for independence was raised in Catalonian parliament, with part of parliament leaving before the vote on independence started. The motion declaring independence was approved with 70 in favor, 10 against, and two abstentions of the normal 135 total.

From RT: https://www.rt.com/news/407956-catalan-parliament-votes-independence/
From Aljazeera: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/10/catalan-parliament-begins-vote-independence-171027115908493.html
From BBC: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41780116

It will be interesting to see how things unfold. In my opinion, Madrid using violence to stop a referendum gave it the legality they later claim the referendum didn't have. The lack of dialogue paved the way into the only possible outcome, Catalonia declaring independence and Madrid denying it. Whatever happens next, I hope will be peaceful. As to how the EU reacts, I'm hoping they ask for an official referendum, and whatever the outcome, pledges that both Catalonia and Spain will be able to remain in the EU if they desire. That may release tensions a bit.


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  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Arik on Saturday October 28 2017, @12:56AM (8 children)

    by Arik (4543) on Saturday October 28 2017, @12:56AM (#588485) Journal
    "I don't support Catalonian secession but would gladly see them go rather than having actual violence exerted towards them"

    So does that mean you opposed the violence used earlier?

    "the two main pro-independence parties, "Together for Yes" and "Popular Unity Candidcay" got around 48% of the popular vote (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_regional_election,_2015#Results)"

    Isn't that actually pretty normal in a parliamentary system? Rojoy's party got ~33% of the vote and took nearly a year to form a minority government themselves IIRC.

    "but there is at least as much people that today found themselves stripped of their nationality"

    Who has been stripped of their nationality? Huh?

    "At most, today's secession changes the half that feels betrayed by their government."

    I see what you're saying there, which is (one reason) why I think it's a shame there hasn't been any real dialogue.

    "And of course, most EU nations have their own nationalist regions - not many of them would like to give the impression that seceding unilaterally is a welcome move in the Union"

    I think this is the biggest reason the EUcrats aren't going to go for this. Some early and enthusiastic EU supporters were found among stateless nationalists - in Catalonia, Scotland, Scania, etc. All these little European traditional nationalities that tended to get swallowed up by larger empires such as France and Spain for practical reasons (having been too small to effectively defend themselves in an age of empires) can potentially come back once the empires themselves have become part of this larger union. It makes a lot of sense long term. There's no reason to preserve the Empire of Spain inside an EU structure where defense is the sphere of the central EU government rather than Madrid. Nor is there any reason to preserve France (both Catalonia and the Basque country straddle that border of course, then there's Brittany,) no reason Belgium can't split back into Wallonia and Flanders, no reason Malmö has to take orders from Stockholm... well no reason except the politics of it; no central government ever wants to give up power or territory, and the EU is actually composed of these central governments, so that's a pretty reliable 'no reason' that's probably not changing anytime soon. Plus the central EU government doesn't really have an army yet, not that they aren't working on it! but yeah, places like Berlin, Madrid, and Paris run the EU and they're still deathly afraid of the consequences.

    "We can discuss whether this is good or bad until our faces are red, but unless for some reason Spain decided to deploy the military and start another Civil War (which is extremely unlikely and I hope never happens) it's just not happening."

    How else can you see this ending? Catalonia has now declared independence, Rajoy is planning to 'fire' them, but they no longer recognize his authority to do so, what is he going to do next if not use force again?

    --
    If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
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  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by bob_super on Saturday October 28 2017, @01:38AM

    by bob_super (1357) on Saturday October 28 2017, @01:38AM (#588499)

    > How else can you see this ending? Catalonia has now declared independence

    That's how it goes next: "A group of elected people illegally declared independence, based on an illegitimate referendum, and we do not recognize the declaration".

    The actual ending? That depends 100% on the next fair elections. If the independentists gain popularity and get an outright majority, Madrid is legitimately screwed. If the independentists lose any ground, Spain stays together.
    Madrid has a lot of work to do to make sure they get the result they want. Which is hard when the Spanish economy sucks, you've already come down hard on the dissenters, and you don't really have more autonomy to offer.

  • (Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @02:10AM (3 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @02:10AM (#588516)

    but they no longer recognize his authority to do so,

    http://www.elmundo.es/cataluna/2017/10/28/59f3b4f146163f03158b460a.html [elmundo.es] Oops! Puigdemont forgot to tell him he must stay because they are all independent and make their own laws as they want. Or just ignore them. Whatever is needed to reach the promised land. /s

    • (Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Saturday October 28 2017, @03:17AM (2 children)

      by Grishnakh (2831) on Saturday October 28 2017, @03:17AM (#588540)

      Um, I have little idea what this article is about since I don't read Spanish. I tried Google Translate, but it really wasn't much help: I can't figure out if this guy is Catalan or non-Catalan, and if he's resigning from the national legislature or the Catalan one. I take it from your tone that he's a Catalan parliament member, but I'm not entirely sure.

      • (Score: 0, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @04:04AM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @04:04AM (#588559)

        He is the police director, Mossos d'Escuadra is the Catalonian police. Central government fired the Govern, of which he was part. Parlament chamber got dissolved as law dictates to proceed with new elections, but he is not a member. Non independentists MPs also lost their chairs in the Parlament, as it always happens in the count down to elections.

        http://www.elmundo.es/espana/2017/10/27/59f33d27e5fdeac54b8b4647.html [elmundo.es] President of Govern, fired. Other Govern members (heads of local Deparments), fired. President and Vicepresident Offices, dissolved. Transition Council created by independentists, dissolved. Diplocat and other PR offices outside Catalonia (embassies as independentists prefer to call them, no country accepted them as that, project as such started in 2012), closed except the ones in Brussels and Madrid; in those two places just the directors are fired. Tasks will be performed by/directed from equivalent central Ministries/Deparments as needed will all the lower bureaucracy stays, no new Govern will be set until voting takes place.

        Mossos still stay in place. But the measures approved under 155 allow Policia/Guardia Civil to be called and replace Mossos if they don't obey orders. They were caught sneaking papers to be burnt, and judges had to push to keep them as they don't believe they were just old papers and want to be sure they are not recent. Yet no charges so far.

        Things will be applied on a case-by-case way, the 155 approval included that condition.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 29 2017, @03:50AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 29 2017, @03:50AM (#588915)

          Other reports say Rajoy specifically sacked Soler and another police official:

          A day after the Catalan parliament defied Madrid and voted for a unilateral declaration of independence, Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy issued a decree that confirmed the sacking of Josep Lluís Trapero, head of the regional police force, the Mossos d'Esquadra.

          Trapero already faced charges of sedition over his force's actions in the run-up to Catalonia's banned Oct. 1 independence referendum. The director general of the Catalan police, Pere Soler, was also dismissed.

          ( http://www.ktxs.com/news/world/catalan-police-chief-sacked-as-madrid-takes-steps-to-impose-direct-rule/647048490 [ktxs.com] )

          ...the Madrid government removed Josep Lluís Trapero Álvarez as chief of Catalonia's autonomous Mossos police force.

          Mr Trapero was already under investigation for sedition, accused of failing to help Spain's Guardia Civil police tackle thousands of pro-independence protesters in Barcelona during the run-up to the referendum.

          Pere Soler i Campins, the Mossos director general, has also been dismissed.

          ( http://daily-sun.com/post/264613/Catalonia-independence:-Spain-takes-charge-of-Catalan-government [daily-sun.com] )

  • (Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @12:33PM (2 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @12:33PM (#588653)

    I'm the AC from the first post on the thread. Let me reply to your points one at a time

    *** VIOLENCE ***
    I did not support the deployment of police forces on the October 1st vote because a) I did not want people to be hurt because of the irresponsible actions of the governmental elites that will benefit the most from a secession; and b) because it was a huge strategic mistake, as it was obvious it would not be effective to stop the vote and only serve as a PR disaster. And true enough, the pro-independence propaganda machine had a field day with it.

    Let me be clear about it before I add anything else: I don't like violence being used, and I was appalled by some of the images I saw. I perceive the Catalan people, even the separatists that spew bile against Spain and Spaniards day in, day out, to by my countrymen and countrywomen, my brothers and sisters, and I am very, VERY unhappy that our politicians have handled this situation so poorly since years ago. It is my belief both the Catalan and Central governments have used this situation to distract attention from the economic crisis and the corruption scandals that this last decade have been undermining them, and they have fueled a terrible increase on bad blood and outright hate in a lot of people. Not everyone, not even in the pro-independence movement, but enough that, whatever happens, it will be very easy to re-establish social peace in Spain - or even inside Catalonia.

    But when mentioning violence I'd like to mention some facts I believe to be true and seem to be frequently ignored:
    1 - Police was deployed under court orders, and not the executive's. You can argue that the judicial power is not as independent as it should be in Spain and I would agree there's grounds for that assessment, but it's definitely not North Korea, either. If a judge (in a Catalan court no less) orders the police to seize ballots, close voting venues and evacuate people that would try to stop the court mandate to go ahead, police forces have a duty to carry on the orders and the executive power's only role is to provide the necessary logistics for them to do so. Any other situation is a violation of the rule of law and the separation of powers which are the basis on which any democracy can strive to survive and serve the people.
    2 - This is not the first time Catalans are asked to vote on their preference regarding independence, but it IS the first time the regional government has vowed to follow through with unilateral secession in 2 days time (they finally took longer than that). Last time people were allowed to vote while the court followed their (frequently slow) mechanisms before finally ruling the vote to be unconstitutional and unenforceable. And of course it is, the Spanish constitution (available in English here: http://www.congreso.es/portal/page/portal/Congreso/Congreso/Hist_Normas/Norm/const_espa_texto_ingles_0.pdf) [congreso.es] states in its second section "The Constitution is based on the indissoluble unity of the Spanish Nation, the common and indivisible homeland of all Spaniards; it recognises and guarantees the right to self government of the nationalities and regions of which it is composed and the solidarity among them all.". As time was a factor, the judge ordered preventative measures.
    3 - Then there is of course the matter of roughly half of the Catalan people not wanting independence, and, more specifically, wanting to remain Spanish. It is also known that a number of pro-independence people don't want to actually secede but use it as a tool to force the central government to allow more fiscal autonomy for the region (not surprising on a rich region), but as the number of these is unknown I will still talk about a roughly even split. Not acting following the law would have meant hurting the rights of the law abiding, constitution respecting half in favor of the people that want to change things disregarding laws and the other half.
    4 - The figures are terrible: almost 900 hurt in clashes with the police. In particular, a person will most likely never recover eyesight on one eye after being hit with a rubber bullet. That should have never happened, and in fact shooting rubber rounds is illegal in Catalonia, so there will most likely be consequences for the agent that shot it.

    But then again, what happened to those 900? The figure has been waved around a lot, but is it true? Not quite: 900 were treated by health services on that day, including people that suffered nervous breakdowns. Now, of course, a nervous breakdown is not nice, but it's not what people had been led to believe which is "900 hundred were hit with truncheons until they bled". Of the 900, 4 needed to be hospitalized. 4, not 400.

    And then of course there are doubts about how many of those "nervous breakdowns" were real. A very well known case was of the woman that had her fingers broken by police "one by one", as she recorded on a voice message that made the rounds on the media. Pep Guardiola, very well known manager of the Manchester City football/soccer team and Catalan nationalist, tweeted about it so it got further european-wide (possibly world-wide) exposure. The voice message talk about "such evil", described a sexual assault.

    A day later it was known that no fingers were broken, she had one with a painful bursitis and that was it. For a cop trying to break them "one by one" and only manage to get one swollen is surprising, especially for "such evil" a cop. Then we learned the woman was part of one of the pro-independence parties, member of a local government and as such set to have their powers increased after independence. I have no actual, definite proof that all of it was a deliberate exaggeration to be used as part of the propaganda campaign, but considering the circumstantial evidence I believe it very likely.

    5 - Then there is the several recordings that have shown the "peaceful", "civic" protesters attacking police first in some instances:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCVo_Dhn3ZI [youtube.com]
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0GwYEfTgzw [youtube.com]

    6 - And there is, of course, the fact that the judge asked the regional police (Mossos D'Esquadra) to be the ones leading the actions so as to not increase tensions with people. They did not, as the person in command was (has been removed today) a pro-independence militant and personal ally of the regional government. Let me re-phrase it. Instead of following the laws and constitution that they swore to uphold when they got the job, and contrary to the court orders, the police acted on the executive power's orders. That is, not only did they not follow their orders, in the process they violated the separation of powers that is the cornerstone of all modern democracies.

    ---

    But I will repeat it again, I would have rather not had any violence that day. It changed nothing, a person lost function on one eye, another man suffered a heart attack, several people (surely not 900, but probably tens of them) were hurt, several police officers were hurt, the PR blow was massive and lots of people in Catalonia truly believed the narrative of an evil central power sending their armies to quell unrest.

    *** Parliamentary system ***
    It is certainly normal for governments to be able to exert executive power with small majorities, or even forming coalitions - the Catalan government was in that situation as well. Changing the constitution of a country usually requires at least two thirds of the legislative power to agree, however, so such a minority government would not be able to do it without reaching a consensus with the opposition. Catalan rules do require a qualified majority (again, two thirds) for big regulatory changes to be approved - changing the directors of the regional television and radio public corporation is considered to be such a large change, for example.

    Now, this regional government has decided to secede with 70 votes out of 135, and knowing they have those votes not even because more than half the people support them, but because regional districts favour countryside voters over city voters (you need less votes on the more rural areas to get a seat on the Generalitat parliament than in, say, Barcelona). With less than half the voters supporting them (and almost a quarter of the voters not even having said anything at all). While they wouldn't appoint a new director for the regional television with such support.

    (Followed on next comment, Soylent complained it was too long)

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @12:40PM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @12:40PM (#588656)

      *** Nationality ***
      Now I must apologise here, as no one did actually lose their nationality just yet. I was tired when writing yesterday (2am in Spain) and wanted to convey too much information in too short a sentence, and failed. What I mean to say is, should secession crystallise, a lot of people that love their land but also Spain would be forced to choose between their home and their country. Of course there is another half that does not feel Spanish. It is a complex matter, but I don't believe you solve it by saying "Now I am on top and you are screwed". Catalonia already enjoyed a high degree of autonomy (widely considered among the top in the world even if the country is not, nominally, a federation) before their government decided to forego laws, constitution, its own statute of autonomy and even the laws they themselves promulgate, even when they are unconstitutional - they even violated their own referendum law in several ways.

      *** Betrayed by their government ***
      I agree this should have been solved by politicians doing politics, and years ago. It's true that the Catalan government has been skirting or directly bending the laws for a long time, but it is no less try there were about 2 million unhappy people in Catalonia that wanted things to change. It is my belief there are some legitimate reasons for that, but also a degree of manipulation from the political elites (they stand to benefit greatly from secession, not least because the corruption causes being pursued against them would be dropped by the judges appointed directly by the independent government - and yes, this violation of the separation of powers is present in their own transition law, approved by the same 48% popular vote, 70 out of 135 votes majority less than 2 months ago).

      Catalonia was among the richest regions in Europe (it seems likely their economy will suffer noticeably whatever happens), with really high standards of living, human development, cultural output. Aside from a high degree of self-government, Catalonians have no restrictions on the usage of their language and enjoyment of their traditions. They can freely talk against the central government (and frequently do), they can freely elect their officials out of nationalist parties, unlike in, for example, France (and almost always do)... Basically, what they cannot do is secede, nor stay but elect not to contribute to poorer regions' economies - and this last part has been a big part of the push to secede. What I want to express is that Catalonian independentism has been sending a message about an oppressed nation that needs help escaping from an authoritarian dictatorship, and that couldn't be further from the truth.

      Spain was a dictatorship not that long ago. Catalan language was banned. No one could choose their government officials. People supporting nationalism were jailed, tortured, executed... or simply disappeared. People supporting democracy too. To try and sell that nothing has changed since the dictatorship ended can only be the worst type of nationalist populism. And it has served to make people feel oppressed. The central government has had its fair share of guilt on this too, more by omission than action, but I at least perceive it to be a great disservice of the Catalan government to its people, for its own selfish reasons.

      *** European Union ***
      Providing a full account of Catalan and Spanish history would take far longer than I've already written, and it is too long already. Catalonia has been a part of Spain since its inception. I'll try to be brief: The Frankish Kingdom cleared the northern part of the Iberian peninsula of the Muslim people that ruled it back then (around 800 CE) to establish a buffer zone between the two empires. That Spanish mark, simplifying, developed to be independent of the Frankish empire and, through war and marriages, to be under control of the Count of Barcelona. At around the same time other kingdoms formed in the peninsula and started to take it back from the Muslim empire. On the 12th century, the Crown of Aragon and the County of Barcelona were joined in marriage, and as such formed a single political entity (the Crown of Aragon). On the 15th century the rulers of the Kingdom of Castile and Kingdom of Aragon married, and then their son and heir inherited both crowns, forming the basis of present day's Spain. The history is a lot more complex, as Catalonia retained most of its institutions until 1714, which granted it a degree of autonomy even while being part of the larger country, but it is very incorrect to talk about a small nation being swallowed by a large empire. Catalonia was a part of Spain since day 1.

      Now, with regard of the EU wanting to maintain current borders, I don't see it as exactly bad or wrong. It is my belief we need fewer borders, not more, and fewer reasons to believe a group of people so distinct and separate from another. I am of the thought that we are all basically the same, and share the same mud ball, so drawing lines in the sand can only be a bad thing. It means we as a race are more worried in keeping the neighbour away than finding the way to expand to other planets before we or a huge asteroid destroy this one. I see the EU as a possible way to reduce nationalisms, borders and other useless constructs in the future. As such, increasing the number of borders and separate governments inside the EU is contrary to my beliefs.

      *** How it is going to end ***
      I don't think there will be a full-on war, but unfortunately it is likely there will be police violence involved. Both the Catalan and central Spanish government have had several chances in the last few weeks to avoid it, but decided on a collision course. This can only end up badly for the people, both pro- and anti-independence. I hope I am wrong and a peaceful solution can be found, but it was much easier before and it did not happen. As I said in my previous message, I'd rather see them go than having people actually hurt or killed by the hundreds, thousands, or even tens. Or just one. I still see them as my kin, as tribal as it is. I've met lots of Catalans, and even had a (independentist!) Catalan girlfriend. I truly appreciate them, and

      • (Score: 2) by Arik on Monday October 30 2017, @08:15PM

        by Arik (4543) on Monday October 30 2017, @08:15PM (#589638) Journal
        An interesting read and I thank you. I want to preface this by saying I have no allegiance to either side, I'm not Spanish though I've visited and have friends there that I hope stay both safe and free.

        "It is my belief both the Catalan and Central governments have used this situation to distract attention from the economic crisis and the corruption scandals that this last decade have been undermining them"

        This sounds eminently plausible.

        "1 - Police was deployed under court orders, and not the executive's. You can argue that the judicial power is not as independent as it should be in Spain and I would agree there's grounds for that assessment"

        As far as I'm able to discern, this is a really important part of the problem. Without an independent judiciary, the game is rigged. If the game is rigged, and this is discovered and understood, then people don't feel obligated to follow the rules anymore and what we euphemistically refer to as civilized society ceases to function. People that are very rules-oriented and diligent may not abandon the idea entirely but even they are forced to find some maneuver to restore the game, which means they too abandon the rules as previously written.

        "2 - This is not the first time Catalans are asked to vote on their preference regarding independence, but it IS the first time the regional government has vowed to follow through with unilateral secession in 2 days time (they finally took longer than that)."

        And you present that in a light that seems positive for the centrists, but from the other point of view I think it's seen in a very different context, as an indication of just how long they've been trying to spark a dialogue with a brick wall.

        "It is also known that a number of pro-independence people don't want to actually secede but use it as a tool to force the central government to allow more fiscal autonomy for the region (not surprising on a rich region), but as the number of these is unknown I will still talk about a roughly even split"

        It doesn't even matter if they're only a few (though my impression is they're the bulk.) Politics! Split off 10%, maybe 20%, satisfy them, that's all you have to do to restore the appearance of legitimacy. There doesn't seem to have been mainstream support for secession prior to the summer of 2010. I visited Barcelona in years before that and saw a lot of 'nationalism' of a very benign variety but no one spoke for secession, even after they got liquored up and trolled a little in fact.

        But as I said, there's an instinctive human response that says if the game is dirty then we can cheat too. Once that meme takes hold it's bad days for civilized society all around.

        "Now I must apologize here, as no one did actually lose their nationality just yet. I was tired when writing yesterday (2am in Spain) and wanted to convey too much information in too short a sentence, and failed. What I mean to say is, should secession crystallize, a lot of people that love their land but also Spain would be forced to choose between their home and their country."

        Accepted, it's easy enough to let your rhetoric slip just one pixel over the line, and hard to own it and apologize.

        Also, I think that if this happened as the secessionists want it to, no one would be forced to make that choice. As far as I understand it their primary goal was simply to restore the Statute of 2006, and then secession became a fall-back position due to there being absolutely zero progress or expectation on progress with the primary goal. And even then they imagine an EU state and an open border with Spain so no dislocation of individuals. Of course there are diverse groups involved and I'm sure that doesn't accurately characterize absolutely everyone, but my impression is that it's a pretty substantial number of people.

        "The history is a lot more complex, as Catalonia retained most of its institutions until 1714, which granted it a degree of autonomy even while being part of the larger country, but it is very incorrect to talk about a small nation being swallowed by a large empire."

        OK, it needs a little more nuance. One small nation married another and gave birth to an Empire. It was a happy marriage for a long time, but now she's saying "give me space or I'm leaving" and he's saying "I'll never let you leave!"

        The kids aren't sure what to make of it. They don't really want her to leave, but they kind of want him to chill the F out and give them a little space sometimes too.

        --
        If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?