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This afternoon, Catalonia declared independence. At the same time, Spain invoked article 155, to strip Catalonia from its governing powers putting it under direct rule from the federal government. A vote for independence was raised in Catalonian parliament, with part of parliament leaving before the vote on independence started. The motion declaring independence was approved with 70 in favor, 10 against, and two abstentions of the normal 135 total.
From RT: https://www.rt.com/news/407956-catalan-parliament-votes-independence/
From Aljazeera: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/10/catalan-parliament-begins-vote-independence-171027115908493.html
From BBC: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41780116
It will be interesting to see how things unfold. In my opinion, Madrid using violence to stop a referendum gave it the legality they later claim the referendum didn't have. The lack of dialogue paved the way into the only possible outcome, Catalonia declaring independence and Madrid denying it. Whatever happens next, I hope will be peaceful. As to how the EU reacts, I'm hoping they ask for an official referendum, and whatever the outcome, pledges that both Catalonia and Spain will be able to remain in the EU if they desire. That may release tensions a bit.
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Saturday October 28 2017, @01:40AM (4 children)
America, even back then, was very different from the EU now. For one, they mostly all spoke English, since they were a bunch of English colonies. They didn't have greatly differing cultures like Germany vs. Greece. One big problem is that having the same currency means sharing a monetary policy, which works out well for some members and not so well for others, which is exactly what we've seen with Greece and Portugal. I'm not sure how to solve that.
If it weren't for the monetary problem, in theory it shouldn't be *that* hard for this motley crew of countries to have an alliance and get along together. It seems to me that they should work to eliminate existing borders between nations, and water down their sovereignty, and break them up into smaller units so the union isn't dominated by a few very large nations and their wishes. Then it'd be more like what we have here in the US, with the states not having so much power, but still having the power to do many things their own way, which in a union with so many languages would be even more desirable. There's long been internal strife and tensions in many EU nations because of the way they were formed and the way borders were drawn (usually as the result of war, but sometimes stupid royal marriages centuries ago). IMO, they should just ask the people in different regions what they want to do, and generally try to give them their own separate nation where they can have all the signs in their preferred language, but the region is large enough to be a viable "state" with its own government (i.e., not the size of Andorra). As part of the EU, with free trade between members, a shared currency, and perhaps with a merged military, it really shouldn't matter that much if a place like Catalonia is independent or not. It shouldn't matter any more than if California were to break in half: would that really be such a bad thing if it happened?
Nationalism is precisely what led to WWI and WWII in Europe, and nationalism is what IMO is driving Madrid to refuse to allow Catalonia to secede. Catalonia doesn't want to leave the EU, just Spain and the bad memories they still have there. As part of the EU, they'll still be paying taxes to help out other member states, and hopefully the EU will move to be more integrated that way in the future too.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @01:59AM
For small values of "most" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_language_in_the_United_States#History [wikipedia.org]
The "we could be speaking German now" may be a myth, but that a lot of German speaking moved from Europe is not. It was the second language for a long time.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @04:15AM (1 child)
Nationalism did not lead to WW1 or WW2. What lead to WW1 and WW2 were corrupt governments, and a willingness of violation of national soveriegnty. Nationalism is about soveriegnty for a people of a country. Violating that sovereignty is against nationalism. Its like how people have rights which are there own as independant beings, like free speech. If you get into a bar fight, we wouldn't blame it on their individual rights to things like free speech giving them the right to beat up other people. Being a free willed being doesnt give you the right to beat up other people and take away their free will. Most people do not want war. The people of the nations, have been cheated by corrupt governments and elitists. Governments are not nations. Nations are the people. People have been manipulated, abused, propogandized and cheated for a long time by corrupt governments to serve the elite. Now you are rewarding the elite and punishing the victims, if you blame the people of the nations.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday October 28 2017, @03:42PM
Only if you share the same nation. Being a nationalist doesn't mean that you respect other nations other than your own.
Corruption is a vague term and a matter of degree. Every government is corrupt to some degree so in the absence of any more concrete criteria, we have the preconditions necessary for the next global war even though no such war has happened yet.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @05:42AM
If not nationalism what do you believe to be driving Catalonian independence? This isn't to ask what stirred up the pot (violence against voters in the referendum), but in reference to the reasoning behind the desire for independence in the first place.
What do you believe the difference between nationalism and individualism is when nationalism comes from a large group of individuals who desire self-determination as a nation? Why is a focus on the self, whether it be as an individual or as a nation, somehow a catalyst for agression and violence in your mind?