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This afternoon, Catalonia declared independence. At the same time, Spain invoked article 155, to strip Catalonia from its governing powers putting it under direct rule from the federal government. A vote for independence was raised in Catalonian parliament, with part of parliament leaving before the vote on independence started. The motion declaring independence was approved with 70 in favor, 10 against, and two abstentions of the normal 135 total.
From RT: https://www.rt.com/news/407956-catalan-parliament-votes-independence/
From Aljazeera: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/10/catalan-parliament-begins-vote-independence-171027115908493.html
From BBC: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41780116
It will be interesting to see how things unfold. In my opinion, Madrid using violence to stop a referendum gave it the legality they later claim the referendum didn't have. The lack of dialogue paved the way into the only possible outcome, Catalonia declaring independence and Madrid denying it. Whatever happens next, I hope will be peaceful. As to how the EU reacts, I'm hoping they ask for an official referendum, and whatever the outcome, pledges that both Catalonia and Spain will be able to remain in the EU if they desire. That may release tensions a bit.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @12:40PM (1 child)
*** Nationality ***
Now I must apologise here, as no one did actually lose their nationality just yet. I was tired when writing yesterday (2am in Spain) and wanted to convey too much information in too short a sentence, and failed. What I mean to say is, should secession crystallise, a lot of people that love their land but also Spain would be forced to choose between their home and their country. Of course there is another half that does not feel Spanish. It is a complex matter, but I don't believe you solve it by saying "Now I am on top and you are screwed". Catalonia already enjoyed a high degree of autonomy (widely considered among the top in the world even if the country is not, nominally, a federation) before their government decided to forego laws, constitution, its own statute of autonomy and even the laws they themselves promulgate, even when they are unconstitutional - they even violated their own referendum law in several ways.
*** Betrayed by their government ***
I agree this should have been solved by politicians doing politics, and years ago. It's true that the Catalan government has been skirting or directly bending the laws for a long time, but it is no less try there were about 2 million unhappy people in Catalonia that wanted things to change. It is my belief there are some legitimate reasons for that, but also a degree of manipulation from the political elites (they stand to benefit greatly from secession, not least because the corruption causes being pursued against them would be dropped by the judges appointed directly by the independent government - and yes, this violation of the separation of powers is present in their own transition law, approved by the same 48% popular vote, 70 out of 135 votes majority less than 2 months ago).
Catalonia was among the richest regions in Europe (it seems likely their economy will suffer noticeably whatever happens), with really high standards of living, human development, cultural output. Aside from a high degree of self-government, Catalonians have no restrictions on the usage of their language and enjoyment of their traditions. They can freely talk against the central government (and frequently do), they can freely elect their officials out of nationalist parties, unlike in, for example, France (and almost always do)... Basically, what they cannot do is secede, nor stay but elect not to contribute to poorer regions' economies - and this last part has been a big part of the push to secede. What I want to express is that Catalonian independentism has been sending a message about an oppressed nation that needs help escaping from an authoritarian dictatorship, and that couldn't be further from the truth.
Spain was a dictatorship not that long ago. Catalan language was banned. No one could choose their government officials. People supporting nationalism were jailed, tortured, executed... or simply disappeared. People supporting democracy too. To try and sell that nothing has changed since the dictatorship ended can only be the worst type of nationalist populism. And it has served to make people feel oppressed. The central government has had its fair share of guilt on this too, more by omission than action, but I at least perceive it to be a great disservice of the Catalan government to its people, for its own selfish reasons.
*** European Union ***
Providing a full account of Catalan and Spanish history would take far longer than I've already written, and it is too long already. Catalonia has been a part of Spain since its inception. I'll try to be brief: The Frankish Kingdom cleared the northern part of the Iberian peninsula of the Muslim people that ruled it back then (around 800 CE) to establish a buffer zone between the two empires. That Spanish mark, simplifying, developed to be independent of the Frankish empire and, through war and marriages, to be under control of the Count of Barcelona. At around the same time other kingdoms formed in the peninsula and started to take it back from the Muslim empire. On the 12th century, the Crown of Aragon and the County of Barcelona were joined in marriage, and as such formed a single political entity (the Crown of Aragon). On the 15th century the rulers of the Kingdom of Castile and Kingdom of Aragon married, and then their son and heir inherited both crowns, forming the basis of present day's Spain. The history is a lot more complex, as Catalonia retained most of its institutions until 1714, which granted it a degree of autonomy even while being part of the larger country, but it is very incorrect to talk about a small nation being swallowed by a large empire. Catalonia was a part of Spain since day 1.
Now, with regard of the EU wanting to maintain current borders, I don't see it as exactly bad or wrong. It is my belief we need fewer borders, not more, and fewer reasons to believe a group of people so distinct and separate from another. I am of the thought that we are all basically the same, and share the same mud ball, so drawing lines in the sand can only be a bad thing. It means we as a race are more worried in keeping the neighbour away than finding the way to expand to other planets before we or a huge asteroid destroy this one. I see the EU as a possible way to reduce nationalisms, borders and other useless constructs in the future. As such, increasing the number of borders and separate governments inside the EU is contrary to my beliefs.
*** How it is going to end ***
I don't think there will be a full-on war, but unfortunately it is likely there will be police violence involved. Both the Catalan and central Spanish government have had several chances in the last few weeks to avoid it, but decided on a collision course. This can only end up badly for the people, both pro- and anti-independence. I hope I am wrong and a peaceful solution can be found, but it was much easier before and it did not happen. As I said in my previous message, I'd rather see them go than having people actually hurt or killed by the hundreds, thousands, or even tens. Or just one. I still see them as my kin, as tribal as it is. I've met lots of Catalans, and even had a (independentist!) Catalan girlfriend. I truly appreciate them, and
(Score: 2) by Arik on Monday October 30 2017, @08:15PM
"It is my belief both the Catalan and Central governments have used this situation to distract attention from the economic crisis and the corruption scandals that this last decade have been undermining them"
This sounds eminently plausible.
"1 - Police was deployed under court orders, and not the executive's. You can argue that the judicial power is not as independent as it should be in Spain and I would agree there's grounds for that assessment"
As far as I'm able to discern, this is a really important part of the problem. Without an independent judiciary, the game is rigged. If the game is rigged, and this is discovered and understood, then people don't feel obligated to follow the rules anymore and what we euphemistically refer to as civilized society ceases to function. People that are very rules-oriented and diligent may not abandon the idea entirely but even they are forced to find some maneuver to restore the game, which means they too abandon the rules as previously written.
"2 - This is not the first time Catalans are asked to vote on their preference regarding independence, but it IS the first time the regional government has vowed to follow through with unilateral secession in 2 days time (they finally took longer than that)."
And you present that in a light that seems positive for the centrists, but from the other point of view I think it's seen in a very different context, as an indication of just how long they've been trying to spark a dialogue with a brick wall.
"It is also known that a number of pro-independence people don't want to actually secede but use it as a tool to force the central government to allow more fiscal autonomy for the region (not surprising on a rich region), but as the number of these is unknown I will still talk about a roughly even split"
It doesn't even matter if they're only a few (though my impression is they're the bulk.) Politics! Split off 10%, maybe 20%, satisfy them, that's all you have to do to restore the appearance of legitimacy. There doesn't seem to have been mainstream support for secession prior to the summer of 2010. I visited Barcelona in years before that and saw a lot of 'nationalism' of a very benign variety but no one spoke for secession, even after they got liquored up and trolled a little in fact.
But as I said, there's an instinctive human response that says if the game is dirty then we can cheat too. Once that meme takes hold it's bad days for civilized society all around.
"Now I must apologize here, as no one did actually lose their nationality just yet. I was tired when writing yesterday (2am in Spain) and wanted to convey too much information in too short a sentence, and failed. What I mean to say is, should secession crystallize, a lot of people that love their land but also Spain would be forced to choose between their home and their country."
Accepted, it's easy enough to let your rhetoric slip just one pixel over the line, and hard to own it and apologize.
Also, I think that if this happened as the secessionists want it to, no one would be forced to make that choice. As far as I understand it their primary goal was simply to restore the Statute of 2006, and then secession became a fall-back position due to there being absolutely zero progress or expectation on progress with the primary goal. And even then they imagine an EU state and an open border with Spain so no dislocation of individuals. Of course there are diverse groups involved and I'm sure that doesn't accurately characterize absolutely everyone, but my impression is that it's a pretty substantial number of people.
"The history is a lot more complex, as Catalonia retained most of its institutions until 1714, which granted it a degree of autonomy even while being part of the larger country, but it is very incorrect to talk about a small nation being swallowed by a large empire."
OK, it needs a little more nuance. One small nation married another and gave birth to an Empire. It was a happy marriage for a long time, but now she's saying "give me space or I'm leaving" and he's saying "I'll never let you leave!"
The kids aren't sure what to make of it. They don't really want her to leave, but they kind of want him to chill the F out and give them a little space sometimes too.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?