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North Korea's latest missile launch appears to put Washington, D.C., in range (archive)
North Korea appears to have launched another intercontinental ballistic missile, the Pentagon said Tuesday, with experts calculating that Washington, D.C., is now technically within Kim Jong Un's reach.
[...] The missile launched early Wednesday local time traveled some 620 miles and reached a height of about 2,800 miles before landing off the coast of Japan, flying for a total of 54 minutes. This suggested it had been fired almost straight up — on a "lofted trajectory" similar to North Korea's two previous intercontinental ballistic missile tests. [...] If it had flown on a standard trajectory designed to maximize its reach, this missile would have a range of more than 8,100 miles, said David Wright, co-director of the global security program at the Union of Concerned Scientists. [...] The U.S. capital is 6,850 miles from Pyongyang.
Although it may be cold comfort, it is still unlikely that North Korea is capable of delivering a nuclear warhead to the U.S. mainland. Scientists do not know the weight of the payload the missile carried, but given the increase in range, it seems likely that it carried a very light mock warhead, Wright said. "If true, that means it would not be capable of carrying a nuclear warhead to this long distance, since such a warhead would be much heavier," he said in a blog post.
(Score: 0, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 29 2017, @04:19AM (25 children)
Why isn't Japan shooting these goddamn things down??!! They certainly have every right! Is self defense such a bad thing now??!! Dammit! I wish people weren't so goddamn submissive!! If these assholes wanna play with missiles, let's show 'em what happens when one lands on their fucking heads!! We have the power, the Chinese and the Russians are no match. Let's fucking finish the job post haste!!
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Ixtl on Wednesday November 29 2017, @04:23AM (8 children)
If we shoot down one, we have to shoot down all of the subsequent ones. If we screw up, it would just reveal the weaknesses in our missile defense. They’re probably thinking it’s best to save it for the armed missiles.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 29 2017, @04:35AM (5 children)
... when there's a smoldering city.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 29 2017, @07:31AM (4 children)
A city in the middle of an ocean, oh Great Armchair General?
Those are ballistic missiles. It's easy to calculate their trajectories, then (attempt to) shoot down those that are aiming for a city, and ignore those that are obviously not a threat. Trying to shoot down each and every one of them just gives the opponent an enormous amount of data about your defensive capabilities.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 29 2017, @11:20AM (3 children)
You fail to take (at least) one thing into account: ballistic missiles need to be taken down on their way up during the boost-phase. Since they are ballistic, after the boost-phase, they just follow their ballistic trajectory down - and in that part, they may jettison chaff to circumvent your fancy take-down rockets which have yet to prove their worth. Even if you come close to taking it down in the down-part, the (possibly nuclear) debris will still hit your precious 'homeland'.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 29 2017, @03:14PM (1 child)
They seem to be intercepting descending ballistic missiles in the Middle East [bbc.com].
It's a million times better for nuclear debris to hit a city than a working atomic bomb.
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Wednesday November 29 2017, @03:57PM
Kind of an interesting coincidence.
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Immerman on Wednesday November 29 2017, @04:53PM
And why couldn't they deploy their hypothetical chaff on the way up as well?
Meanwhile, nuclear debris really is a non-issue - the preferred isotopes for making a fission bomb are U235, with a half-life of 700 million years, and Pu239, with a half-life of 24,000 years. Which is to say that neither is appreciably radioactive. Radioactive fallout comes from the relatively fast-decaying fission byproducts, not the original fissile material itself.
(Score: 2) by frojack on Wednesday November 29 2017, @09:06AM (1 child)
Because its so easy to tell which ones are armed?
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 2) by Immerman on Wednesday November 29 2017, @04:41PM
Nope. But it's a fair bet that they didn't bother loading a warhead on a missile aimed at the middle of the ocean. And if they did - so what?
(Score: 1) by Ethanol-fueled on Wednesday November 29 2017, @04:40AM (2 children)
All bullshit.
This is what crybaby does everytime he needs new things.
(Score: 2, Funny) by captain normal on Wednesday November 29 2017, @04:44AM (1 child)
Are you talking about the great orange one? He won't give a shit until No Korea can hit Mar-a-Lago.
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts"- --Daniel Patrick Moynihan--
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 29 2017, @08:56AM
Hmmm, I guess he is busy: http://www.magapill.com/ [magapill.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 29 2017, @04:47AM (10 children)
Because intercepting a ballistic missile while it is accelerating from its own power is hard. Rocket science hard.
And shooting down a ballistic missile when it is not travelling under its own power is most likely too late, because the payload is on a ballistic trajectory towards its target.
(Score: 0, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 29 2017, @04:59AM (3 children)
That's why you bomb them before they launch! What the fuck are we waiting for?? China can't do a damn thing, and they won't anyway. They hate Korea too. They only needed the buffer zone to protect them from Japan a long time ago. If the Koreans are exterminated, nobody is going to give a shit. Give the land to the Palestinians...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 29 2017, @05:11AM
Better idea, we ship you over there so you can explain things to their great leader. I'm sure you'll do well, don't worry you have our support!
(Score: 0, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 29 2017, @08:39AM (1 child)
That's exactly what Kim is trying to get Trump to do. And vice versa.
China was their friend for many years. At the moment, China is mostly neutral, they don't exactly like what NK is doing, but they are not pissed off enough to actually do anything about it.
The whole battle of words between Kim and Trump is an attempt by both sides to get the other side to shoot first. Because when that happens, China will be forced to take a side, and they will most likely take the side against whoever shot first.
If the US shoots first, Kim will have his big strong friend back. That's what he wants.
If NK shoots first, Kim Jung Un is gone.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 30 2017, @11:39PM
I have no concerns about China. We can wipe them out too. The only effective response China could mount is to shut down the factory that makes Trump's ball caps, and maybe the Walmart factory, but that would be going to far.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 29 2017, @05:24AM (4 children)
These are crap missiles. They are liquid fuel, and thus physically weak. Shooting them down isn't terribly hard for the USA, Israel, and Russia. The job can probably be done, perhaps with a bit of research effort, by many more nations: France, Japan, China, India... maybe even Poland.
There are many ways to shoot them down. Nothing in life is perfectly reliable, so a sane plan would be to attack via multiple methods. Take enough shots at it, and the probability that it gets through will drop down well below that of equivalent natural disasters.
1. Hack it before it even gets on the launch pad.
2. Hit it from a ship or from South Korea with a rail gun.
3. Hit it with THAAD from South Korea or Japan. We delivered THAAD to South Korea last March.
4. Hit it with the S-400 from Russia or the KQ-9 from China.
5. LASER it from a 747. The USA has mothballed hardware that can do this.
6. Hit it with intercept in space. The USA has tech for this.
7. LASER it from the ground as it passes through space, perhaps from Alaska or Hawaii. Things in space have been destroyed this way; the true details are not public.
8. Hit it as it arrives. The USA and USSR both developed working systems for this.
(Score: 3, Informative) by frojack on Wednesday November 29 2017, @09:29AM (2 children)
We have no deployed rail guns.
We don't have any deployed Laser planes.
Russian and Chinese systems aren't for sale, and are not in position to defend the US or Japan.
THAAD is a short range weapon designed to protect a target, you need them everywhere. Having them in Japan won't help us. Its not designed for a boost phase kill.
We do have lots of Standard Missiles [wikipedia.org]
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 29 2017, @10:01AM (1 child)
The claim was essentially that stopping an ICBM is close to impossible. Clearly it isn't.
We have stuff, not so great, deployed right now and publicly acknowledged. We have more that can be deployed in the near future, and likely more that is not public. There are numerous other solutions that could be viable in just a few years. We aren't talking about fusion power, artificial wombs, or interstellar travel here!
Because an ICBM would fly north to hit much of the USA (round Earth so flight near the pole), Russia is along many flight paths. Russia might be more willing to help than one might guess from public behavior. We'd owe them something, and it'd look great for them. There is a decent chance that Russia already has the equipment in place.
(Score: 3, Informative) by takyon on Wednesday November 29 2017, @10:44AM
I wouldn't include artificial wombs in your list. A proof of concept has already been demoed [soylentnews.org] and it's probably only a matter of single digit years before the process is perfected and can be used routinely for animals we don't care about (everything except for humans). Fusion power works, but there are several approaches to it and the question is when it will become economically viable (decades). Interstellar travel works on [wikipedia.org] paper [wikipedia.org], but will not be realized in the near term in any way that could be considered reliable or economical.
With ICBM interception, we have what is publicly known, and then the black budget stuff. Since being able to reliably stop incoming nukes would be politically destabilizing. Well, even if we did perfect it, China would probably hack and steal it.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 29 2017, @06:25PM
I come from Poland. You not say Poland weak. Poland is game to you?! Howbout I take your little board and smash it!!
(Score: 2) by Immerman on Wednesday November 29 2017, @05:06PM
The only reason you really care about a destroyed bomb hitting the target is if it's a contagious bioweapon that you're not certain you've completely killed. The fissile material used in a fission bomb isn't appreciably radioactive, only the fission byproducts are, and the bomb need to explode as intended to get those.
Not to mention, once you blow up a missile you radically reduce the aerodynamics of the fragments so that it's very unlikely that any will reach their intended target. Even in a vacuum, while the center of mass of the missile will indeed continue on it's path to the target (assuming the interceptor contributed negligible momentum), it's unlikely that any fragments would do so since they've all been blasted on different trajectories from the moment of detonation. Think of an exploding firework - how many of those shining balls actually continue to travel along the original rocket's path? None - the explosion sets them all on new paths, even though the path of their combined center off is unaltered.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 29 2017, @05:25AM (1 child)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 29 2017, @09:24AM
No, it exists. But it isn't perfect.
Have you noticed how great a success it is for Kim Jong Un every time one of these launches are successful? You know what would be a much greater success? The US (or any ally with US hardware) trying to shoot it down and missing. Even once.
(Score: 4, Funny) by sjames on Wednesday November 29 2017, @04:28AM (28 children)
Any chance it can deliver a bag of flaming dog poop to the White House porch......PLEASE?
(Score: 1) by Ethanol-fueled on Wednesday November 29 2017, @04:44AM (23 children)
Well, I did always like the style of Donald Trump.
But those idiots arent going to give us the false flags we wanted to start a war.
Big Baby wants us to may more attention to him and give him more grain to feed his people.
We traditionally did. Now, let his own people feed him.
(Score: 1) by Ethanol-fueled on Wednesday November 29 2017, @04:47AM (20 children)
It's the same thing that happens every time. We're not gonna nuke them. They're crying for more grain. Perhaps China should feed them that grain.
One of their missiles may actually hit Japan, or Korea. We know they're not. They're crying out for food. China needs to feed them their food.
(Score: 1) by Ethanol-fueled on Wednesday November 29 2017, @04:50AM (19 children)
Now, China, let's feed baby his grain and let him be a useful idiot to both ourselves and China, because it's gonna be one of us who takes him out - You? Or US.
(Score: 1) by Ethanol-fueled on Wednesday November 29 2017, @04:52AM (15 children)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 29 2017, @04:56AM (14 children)
You must be experiencing anxiety to reply to yourself that many times.
Just remember your spare gas can for when the car runs out of fuel on the side of the road.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Ethanol-fueled on Wednesday November 29 2017, @05:00AM (13 children)
Absolutely not. What I am suggesting is that China give them their grain, become their problem. Nobody wants war.
But it's time for the Eastern nations to handle them as their own problem.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 29 2017, @05:14AM (12 children)
Nah, I think Trump's massive failure is causing your psyche to crumble.
(Score: 1) by Ethanol-fueled on Wednesday November 29 2017, @05:23AM (11 children)
You are misguided. We don't want total war, either do you. We just want idiot-boy to shut up! He hates us for historical reasons, and he hates you less. So help us out here. Let's help this fucker out!
Lots of potential, here. Let's not fuck it up!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 29 2017, @05:23AM (10 children)
You're really far gone, maybe time to sober up.
(Score: 2, Funny) by Ethanol-fueled on Wednesday November 29 2017, @05:32AM (9 children)
Kim, we like you! We want you too understand our people! But should you resist, we will destroy you. Too bad, buddy. We rather liked you.
Now you will be destroyed. Good night, Kim.
(Score: 0, Troll) by Ethanol-fueled on Wednesday November 29 2017, @05:42AM
Niggers!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jb7kJ-j_dKA [youtube.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 29 2017, @05:45AM (7 children)
Spoken like a true sociopath. You really are a trumpette.
(Score: 0, Troll) by Ethanol-fueled on Wednesday November 29 2017, @06:45AM (6 children)
You are true gay. Homo, to be exact. Now, we like to save the gay whales, like in Star Trek 4. But will you help us save the gay whales? the fulcrum of humanity's win or defeat rests upon your shoulders!
So I ask you again, brother...will you save the gay whales?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 29 2017, @07:05AM (4 children)
Ethanol_fueled! Stop! Please re-cork the bottle, and fall into your usual stupor. You are contributing nothing, you are nothing. Your comments are not making anything better. Please stop. Ethanol_fueled, log out now. We have arranged for a donkey to arrive in the alley behind your residence in five minutes. Please shutdown the computer, go out into the alley, and wait. Please, Eth? Please?
(Score: 1) by Ethanol-fueled on Wednesday November 29 2017, @07:14AM (3 children)
You can bring a donkey to my alley...but you cannot explain the disappearance of the quantum experts from Freescale Conductor on MH370.
So how about that donkey?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 29 2017, @08:00AM (2 children)
Sorry, the best we could do was . . . squirrel!!
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Wednesday November 29 2017, @12:09PM (1 child)
Just. Get. A. Room!, you two!
Slam it out with your bones!
;)
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 29 2017, @01:06PM
And a donkey.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 30 2017, @03:14AM
you like fish dicks hehehhahahahohohoho
(Score: 2) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Wednesday November 29 2017, @07:30AM (2 children)
China has made that quite clear to all sides.
The only way the US could avoid CHINESE ICBMs would be for the DPRK to attack first.
China also made quite clear that NK would be on its own if it initiates the war.
It's only two and a half minutes to midnight. Dear me, I'm about to turn into a pumpkin!
Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 29 2017, @07:39AM
Mao is not running the country anymore. People in China are no longer isolated from the rest of the world; they travel all over. The cultural revolution is past. China no longer fears that ordinary Chinese people will become aware of capitalist wealth.
North Korea was once a buffer country with a similar system of government. Now it is just a fucked up and hazardous annoyance.
(Score: 1) by Ethanol-fueled on Wednesday November 29 2017, @08:01AM
The Chinks will get stomped. They stole all of our blueprints, specifications, plans; from all of those "Chinese engineers" who started from "academic solicitation" in our country who somehow managed to get security clearances and went on to work for Boeing and Lockheed-Martin...they are in places to steal everything we have -- and did -- and yet still can't manage to build it properly.
Bring it on, you insectoid scum. It's about time to call in the Orkin man.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 29 2017, @06:02AM (1 child)
We could supply grain containing birth control. After 40 years of that, there wouldn't be much of a military.
(Score: 1) by Ethanol-fueled on Wednesday November 29 2017, @08:18AM
The Chinks did a good enough job of that with their "one child" policy.
They kill or otherwise relagate the girls into orphanges. You think the American neckbeards are sexually frustrated? The Chinese ain't seen nothin' yet.
(Score: 2) by Arik on Wednesday November 29 2017, @05:42AM
I suspect Guam is just theoretically doable, and their recent efforts are focused on making it more practical though.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 29 2017, @04:59PM
Too late. Putin already put one in the Oval Office.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 29 2017, @06:12PM
Why waste the resources? The US Voters already pulled that prank.
(Score: 3, Funny) by LoRdTAW on Wednesday November 29 2017, @06:35PM
Knowing the North Koreans and their level of technology, the payload probably is a bag of flaming human shit because they ate all the dogs.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 29 2017, @05:16AM (10 children)
I'd be willing to bet that no part of the US (probably not even Guam/N Marianas) is within range of anything NKean and probably won't be for years. Attaching functional nukes to these "probably can't hit the US" missiles is likely decades away. Not sure why the media is hellbent on portraying NK as some sort of scary nuclear power when they are merely a ridiculous farce. If the crazy fat kid is stupid enough to attack SK or Japan (the only adversaries within range), it would be with conventional weapons or fake nukes. He might kill a few thousand (tens of thousands at the very outside) of South Koreans with conventional missiles before his entire cult of a country was reduced to a sheet of glass within a few hours. We have nothing do worry about, clickbait headlines not withstanding.
(Score: 2) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Wednesday November 29 2017, @07:21AM (5 children)
pump a mixture of tritium and deuterium into the middle of the plutonium pit of an implosion device.
Not to add power due to fusion, but to supply lots of tasty neutrons to get that cascade going NK-nuking good.
Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
(Score: 1) by Ethanol-fueled on Wednesday November 29 2017, @08:25AM (4 children)
That scares nobody. The Americans can do it, the Russkies can do it. So can the French, Brits, Kikes, Chinks, and even at one time the South Africans.
All the Norks have is A.Q. Khan and the crosshairs pointed at their foreheads. Pakistan also has the crosshairs pointed at their foreheads. Let's hope that either of them try something funny. All of the above except the Norks and the Pakis are worth something to society.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 29 2017, @04:24PM (3 children)
If you are going to use slurs, then slur everybody in that list. What's the USA slur? Yankees? Rednecks? Cowboys? And the french? "Flauffers"?
(Score: 3, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 29 2017, @05:20PM
"Deplorables." That always gets them riled up.
(Score: 3, Informative) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Wednesday November 29 2017, @06:32PM
And I'm proud
Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
(Score: 1) by Ethanol-fueled on Wednesday November 29 2017, @10:43PM
"Frog" is the go-to for French slurs. Like many slurs with old origins, nobody knows exactly where it came from. Some people say it's because they eat frogs, others because one of the French flags had a frog on it. I think it's because they they sound and smell like frogs. So, frogs, is the default slur for the French.
Although I am partial to the eleborate "cheese-eating surrender-monkeys" coined by Homer Simpson.
(Score: 3, Informative) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Wednesday November 29 2017, @07:29AM (3 children)
FTFY
Seoul is about 35 miles from the DMV. Just on the other side of the DMV is a vast quantity of short-range missiles.
Should war break out Seoul will be transformed into a lake of fire.
For extra credit, NK has VX. It's an "area denial weapon" because it is an oily liquid. Inhale its vapor or get some on your skin, if you have an Atapen you could just walk away from the attack, but who carries Atapens anymore?
Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
(Score: 5, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 29 2017, @08:47AM (1 child)
Good thing I don't live in Seoul and need to get my drivers license...
(Score: 2) by LoRdTAW on Wednesday November 29 2017, @06:36PM
Having had many unpleasant dealing at the DMV I'm pretty sure NK isn't much different.
(Score: 2, Informative) by khallow on Wednesday November 29 2017, @05:36PM
Maybe. Atropine is not a cure in the traditional sense. It is a rival nerve agent for VX (and similar compounds) and has its own side effects. Wikipedia [wikipedia.org] had this to say:
So walking away is not guaranteed.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Wednesday November 29 2017, @07:24AM (4 children)
all of their test "warheads" - probably a few hundred points of nightsoil - burn up.
It's not just the heat shield you have to keep the heat shield pointed in the direction of motion, as that direction starts out horizontal then gradually evolves to straight down.
That's why John Glenn was such a hero - he probably expected to fry like an eggplant.
Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
(Score: 4, Funny) by driverless on Wednesday November 29 2017, @10:41AM (2 children)
No, you don't understand their strategy. They're going to arm this thing with the Golfball of Doom, and loft it over to the US so it drops on any golf course there. Then when Trump turns up to play golf, grips the golf bat in his tiny hands, and gives it a good whack, it blows up in his face, killing him. Score one for Little Rocket Man.
(Score: 4, Funny) by Gaaark on Wednesday November 29 2017, @12:26PM (1 child)
Talking about golf, and here you are...driverless...
:)
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 2) by driverless on Wednesday November 29 2017, @12:49PM
That's a reference to the lack of Linux driver support for my laptop, you insensitive clod!
(Score: 3, Informative) by Hartree on Thursday November 30 2017, @05:40AM
That's unclear. The high lob trajectories they've been using for these tests put high thermal and mechanical stress on the RV. Some of the analysis I've heard predicts that the current RVs would likely survive a more normal ICBM flight path.
But, everything in the open source is suspect (and likely a lot of the classified info) so you can insert whatever your favorite theory is at this point until we see one survive.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday November 29 2017, @09:09AM (6 children)
DC is a good target, but I'd prefer Chicago take the first hit.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 4, Informative) by J_Darnley on Wednesday November 29 2017, @10:11AM (5 children)
I want to suggest San Francisco first.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 29 2017, @01:16PM (2 children)
Please stop and think about what you just wrote. I've got friends in both Chicago and DC who are not causing any problems for the world, they are simply keeping their heads down and making a positive contribution.
Is your hatred of some individuals or group(s) so strong that you can rationalize the deaths of many innocents?
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday November 29 2017, @01:47PM
It's rather a Sodom and Gomorrah issue, there. The presence of a few righteous men does not redeem a wicked city. DC and Chicago are quite wicked, so it's on the righteous to depart as it was on Lot to depart.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by J_Darnley on Wednesday November 29 2017, @11:16PM
Why should I care about you or your friends? You are just some text on my screen and your friends are even less than that. I don't lose sleep over the people who die every day. I think most of them are innocent.
(Score: 1) by Ethanol-fueled on Wednesday November 29 2017, @10:44PM (1 child)
As a Californian I agree -- though I'd like to see San Francisco, Los Angeles, and New York City get nuked. I would nut my pants if that happened.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Thursday November 30 2017, @04:25AM
San Francisco and New York have redeeming qualities. There's a stronger case with Los Angeles, though it would be a shame to lose the Getty.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday November 29 2017, @09:21AM
So basically everyone in the world is now a sitting duck because none of them wanted to do the necessary. Yes, North Korea has a lot of artillery they can fire at South Korea. That's rough. Now they have that artillery, and nuclear armed ICBMs. Super improvement of the situation, there, guys. And that happened because China and the US and Japan and everyone else dithered. Now the price of putting the mad dog down has jumped up by millions.
There are those who claim air power could not solve this problem, and yet air power has done a nice job reducing all kinds of organized resistance, the kind of resistance needed to organize mass artillery strikes and nuclear attacks, for, what, the last 20 years? The Gulf War was handily won thanks to it, and Saddam's Iraq at the time had one of the largest armies in the world that all the hand-wringing nay-sayers said we'd never beat on the ground. The Iraq War, and Afghanistan both quickly brushed aside the governments thanks to air power. It would do the same, here, with the added bonus that you don't need to worry about any insurgency if you have no intention of occupying territory.
I still say the smart thing would be to put the onus on China to control its client state. The mad dog is on their porch, and it's their responsibility to put it down. Any claim they might stake to being a great power and having global influence is a joke if they can't even control the thing they've had on a leash for the last 60 years.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 29 2017, @10:04AM (5 children)
It seems that people are in rather ardent denial at this point. North Korea is extremely rapidly getting stronger. Probably with more than a little help from China, but even if not, it's irrelevant. If you'd said that North Korea would have anywhere near these capabilities two years ago, people would have said that NK is decades from getting it. Four years ago these people would have said NK is decades away from getting a nuclear weapon, let alone a thermonuclear weapon. These same people now say NK is decades from mounting a nuclear warhead on these increasingly powerful missiles.
Clearly North Korea has not been listening to the schedule, since it is consistently over-delivering, and on a massive scale.
Decades of impotent US policy, repeatedly dumped by presidents from both sides, have managed to demonstrate the obvious - doing nothing of consequence does not work. People who ramble about "continuing diplomatic solutions" and "continuing sanctions" are deluding themselves into a political fairy tale. The regime does not care about diplomacy or sanctions of any sort whatsoever and will stop at nothing to fully nuclearize.
And what then? "He'll never attack!" these same people say, those who believe he shouldn't have anything even vaguely close to so much as a nuclear-powered firework yet, let alone a working weapon. Shall we wait until he's got a full arsenal? Shall we wait until the regime collapses and these weapons fall into the hands of his former generals turned warlords? Shall we wait until he's backed into a corner by a coup and decides he'll take Seoul, Tokyo, Los Angeles and New York with him on his way to the grave? Until he starts threatening to nuke us if he doesn't get the food aid he wants or sanctions removed (because, remember - as much as he might be "too rational" to do this, do we really want to take the chance, or the chance that without that aid he'll be overthrown by someone who is that crazy?). Shall we wait until he decides to sell this technology to a group or country who will use it? We've already been in a standoff over Seoul held hostage for 50 years, what happens when 'Seoul' becomes cities all over?
Diplomacy will not work. Kin Jong-Un has put his everything into this program, to the point that his soldiers are infested with worms. Heck, a large percentage of that same military ends up carried home from service once they depart, since they can't make it home on their own power due to starvation. This makes things even worse since what remains of the military may decide they have nothing to lose at some point and attempt to off him, and then there's no telling who gets control of those weapons, nor their intentions, and suddenly we have warheads on the black market that "shouldn't exist for decades," but lo and behold, are very real. Even if this does not materialize, his military is half-starved and full of parasites. He is backing himself into a corner where his only tactical options are "do nothing" and "massive suicide attack." This is not a healthy state for an unstable country to be in. Or any country, but especially not one like North Korea. Given this single-tactic approach, sanctions may well give him a greater incentive to nuclearize so that he can cement his power before the niceties he's used to buy off the military run out. Suddenly those niceties can be bought by threatening to blow up the country they came from if they don't start flowing again. The fact that current nuclear-armed nations don't do that today means little to nothing to North Korea, as they have proven the only rules they play by or care about are their own.
Dear Leader does not care about his people. You cannot hurt him that way. He punishes people who disagree with him by putting them into conditions so bad that they have to sift through animal feces in hopes of finding undigested bits of food, or more mercifully executes them with artillery rounds. The only way to convince him to give it up would be to present a far more immediate threat to his life, e.g. a literal gun to his head for the rest of his life. And a theoretical American strike that has yet to materialize is hardly a literal gun to his head. In fact, given history, it is not very credible in the least, especially given the strange and doubtlessly deadly politics within North Korea's government. China might be a route towards peace, but ultimately they just don't care, or they don't have anywhere near the leverage they thought they did and are fairly powerless to stop them.
All the peace that has been bought up to this point has been nothing but a loan, with lives being the ever-accumulating interest. The longer we wait, the more who will die when the bill comes due. The United States has no choice but to act, because sooner or later the bill is going to come due, and at the very least Japan and the continental US will pay in blood. If not, the best case scenario is that NK fully nuclearizes and becomes impractical to assail, even as they slowly attempt to assimilate South Korea, while the rest of the world gets solid evidence that the US is a paper tiger and North Korea gets wealthy selling nuclear secrets to anyone who hates the US. I do not say any of this with glee. In fact, the situation stresses me out a lot. But it is simply the grim reality of the situation, and the result of letting this ferment for the last 30 years. More denial, more attempts to pretend it is not happening, will only continue fermenting this situation into an even fouler brew, and one that is even more bitter to drink. And I am quite sure that, Trump or China pulling out a miracle aside, we will eventually drink it in full.
(Score: 2) by takyon on Wednesday November 29 2017, @12:02PM
It should have been obvious. North Korea has been diligently working on its programs.
1. You can't assassinate NK scientists like you can easily do in Iran.
2. Everything NK wants to do was basically perfected in the 1950s. Now they have powerful computers capable of aiding the work, and whatever information can be gleaned from public sources, intrusion into government computer systems, or simply handed to them by China or Russia.
There was an indication recently that the Obama administration was doing something [thediplomat.com] - such as cyberattacks or something more exotic - to cripple individual missile tests. But that is a short-term strategy that has limited effectiveness against one of the most paranoid regimes in the world.
So while rocket science is somewhat hard and NK has limited resources, it is treading proven ground. The general idea [wikipedia.org] of how to create a hydrogen bomb can be found on Wikipedia. They'll miniaturize and attach those suckers to ballistic missiles eventually. Maybe they'll even throw a bone to the other hungry dogs in the world and release the plans on the net.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 29 2017, @01:31PM (3 children)
so what's your solution?
send the US army over there, whatever the consequences?
how would you then explain the destruction of seoul and a bunch of other stuff to the world?
how would you explain the thousands/tens of thousands of US casualties to US voters?
US citizens believe in "innocent until proven guilty".
North Korea is certainly innocent of using weapons of mass destruction.
they are certainly guilty of making threats.
I personally do not have a solution.
but you don't seem to have one either.
(Score: 2) by tibman on Wednesday November 29 2017, @08:30PM
You don't have to succeed to break the law. Threatening to murder or attempting murder is also a crime. If someone is credibly threatening to kill you and we don't do anything until they actually do kill you then that is a huge mistake.
SN won't survive on lurkers alone. Write comments.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday November 29 2017, @09:59PM (1 child)
Yeah, it sucks. But we have honestly tried diplomacy and sanctions for decades to get North Korea to give up on nuclear weapons. We gave them food during their famine. We tried multi-party talks with China and other nations involved. We really, really tried. But that failed, because North Korea was determined to get nuclear weapons.
So we do have to take military action. If we don't, innocent civilians in the US, Japan, and South Korea will be looking at a crazy lunatic who's got his finger on the nuclear trigger. It's also, far more than chasing hapless Islamic jihadis in a random desert, the definition of why people who join the military sign up. They do it to defend their friends and families from bad guys, not assassinate individuals by drones. Kim Jong Un and his armies are bad guys. They are the archetypical bad guys.
As far as explaining the thousands of US casualties to US voters, it will be a lot easier than explaining the millions of casualties from a nuclear strike because Washington failed to act.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 29 2017, @10:29PM
The long con finally revealed. Start WW3 or your puppy gets it! I highly doubt your "archetypal baddies" argument. NK has lots of problems, and a megalomaniac dictator, but I think it is pretty clear why they want nukes. For protection! Korea already got invaded, then split in two, and nukes are about the only way to guarantee their own defense.
I have a 3rd option. Nuclear disarmament across the globe. Perhaps if the major powers give up on nukes then NK won't feel like such an inferior country. Win win in the long run.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 29 2017, @01:32PM (5 children)
Most comments made here and in other places on this "crisis" are nothing but propaganda. They are beating the war drums. Some of the above comments seem to have taken a while to come up with and write. Clearly well-written, taking into account all possible 'scenarios' (if China helps them then "we" do this, "we" need to toughen up and take the "right" steps, "we" need to show these norks what we are made of, ...)
It is not healthy to read what the propagandists write. We all know PNAC agenda calls for invading DPRK (North Korea) and China comes after that. The show is being up on "they launched a weapon capable of hitting such and such city". A city is always named so people can relate to it.
Anyone calling for a war with anyone is either out of their mind (most likely) or is a paid government propagandist.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 29 2017, @04:09PM
Bit SN is too small to be targeted!! Haha. Haaa. Some of the shills are probably regular people just eating up the FUD.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday November 29 2017, @09:52PM (3 children)
It depends on the war, doesn't it? Should we not have gone to war against the Nazis and the Japanese? Would you have been OK with letting Saddam keep Kuwait? Do you not think that a direct on the World Trade Centers by Al Qaeda warranted going after bin Laden?
Sure, invading Iraq the second time was colossally stupid. Invading Syria would not make much sense either. But then in neither of those cases were those places a real threat to the United States or our allies.
North Korea, on the other hand, is actively developing ICBMs and hydrogen bombs to mount on them. And they're threatening to use them on the United States and our allies. Does that not meet the definition, even a definition for a craven surrender monkey, of a credible threat?
War is a tough solution, but diplomacy and sanctions have failed to change North Korea's course. If we don't take immediate action millions of Americans, Japanese, South Koreans, or others might pay the price. Given what North Korea has done here, developing the ability to strike the mainland US, it could well be you and your family who pay the price.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 29 2017, @10:16PM
We were already there, enforcing no-fly zones. Saddam had been killing Kurds in the north and Marsh Arabs in the south.
So, is that supposed to continue forever? Are we supposed to abandon those people?
Not that I personally mind them killing each other, but it looks bad. Some people have an issue with it.
Unless you think that we should just be patrolling the skies above a supposedly sovereign country until the end of time, something had to happen.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 29 2017, @10:32PM (1 child)
I guess time will tell, but if you think they are going to nuke the US just because they can then you have lost all sense. Never figured you for a war monger, preemptive invasion will 100% start WW3 and will result in a lot worse destruction than even a few ICBMs.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Thursday November 30 2017, @04:33AM
I'm not a war monger, but I'm not a pacifist either. You fight when you must. This is one of those times. North Korea is a real threat the way Iraq and Iran never were.
History condemns Neville Chamberlain for appeasing the early ambitions of the Third Reich, because they wanted to avoid a repeat of the Great War. It made the cost so much higher than it might have been. This is such a moment. The longer we delay the higher the price will be.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 3, Funny) by Nuke on Wednesday November 29 2017, @01:51PM (2 children)
Now we know that North Korea was Mad Mike Hughes' target all along. The USA was using him in his rocket to get past their defences by saying it only had a dummy warhead.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 29 2017, @07:33PM
He'll run out of steam before he gets there.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 29 2017, @10:45PM
But on a flat earth is korea to the east or west?