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posted by janrinok on Friday October 23 2015, @05:53AM   Printer-friendly
from the you-can't-handle-the-truth dept.

American history is filled with war stories that subsequently unraveled. Consider the Bush administration's false claims about Saddam Hussein's supposed arsenal of weapons of mass destruction or the imagined attack on a U.S. vessel in the Gulf of Tonkin. Now Johnathan Mahler writes in the NY Times about the inconsistencies in the official US story about bin Laden's death. "Almost immediately, the administration had to correct some of the most significant details of the raid," writes Mahler. Bin Laden had not been ''engaged in a firefight,'' as the deputy national-security adviser, John Brennan, initially told reporters; he'd been unarmed. Nor had he used one of his wives as a human shield. The president and his senior advisers hadn't been watching a ''live feed'' of the raid in the Situation Room; the operation had not been captured on helmet-cams.

But according to Mahler there is the sheer improbability of the story itself, which asked us to believe that Obama sent 23 SEALs on a seemingly suicidal mission, invading Pakistani air space without air or ground cover, fast-roping into a compound that, if it even contained bin Laden, by all rights should have been heavily guarded. How likely was that? Abbottabad is basically a garrison town; the conspicuously large bin Laden compound — three stories, encircled by an 18-foot-high concrete wall topped with barbed wire — was less than two miles from Pakistan's equivalent of West Point. ''The story stunk from Day 1,'' says Seymour Hersh whose most consequential claim was about how bin Laden was found in the first place. According to Hersh, it was not years of painstaking intelligence-gathering, he wrote, that led the United States to the courier and, ultimately, to bin Laden. Instead, the location was revealed by a ''walk-in'' — a retired Pakistani intelligence officer who was after the $25 million reward that the United States had promised anyone who helped locate him. And according to Hersh, the daring raid wasn't especially daring. The Pakistanis allowed the U.S. helicopters into their airspace and cleared out the guards at the compound before the SEALs arrived. The most blatant lie was that Pakistan's two most senior military leaders – General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, chief of the army staff, and General Ahmed Shuja Pasha, director general of the ISI – were never informed of the US mission.

"It's not that the truth about bin Laden's death is unknowable," concludes Mahler. "it's that we don't know it. And we can't necessarily console ourselves with the hope that we will have more answers any time soon; to this day, the final volume of the C.I.A.'s official history of the Bay of Pigs remains classified. We don't know what happened more than a half-century ago, much less in 2011."


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  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 23 2015, @06:19AM

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 23 2015, @06:19AM (#253511)

    It probably shows I'm still young in a way, but finding out about bin Laden being killed was a very weird day for me.
    While I understand that it is very unlikely the US has hidden knowledge from undisclosed communications with aliens, and they're just waiting for the right time to bring out new technologies, a big part of me would like to believe that hidden organizations that concern themselves with the bigger picture do exist, and they do have a significant measure of control over the world.
    And then, suddenly, out comes the president of the US, relieved at having successfully killed a relatively defenceless old guy in his bedroom. It suddenly became obvious that all these "world leaders" are just grasping at straws, doing their best when they are actually overwhelmed, and they're just being carried by history like the rest of us. Even though their actions have severe consequences for everyone, they usually have no idea what those consequences are...

    All of these revelations are scary, because they show just how chaotic history really is, but they actually make perfect sense. It's just that I would like not to believe them. And I honestly have no idea how to convince people in general that they can't let themselves be overwhelmed by the fear, since I myself don't like to think about these things.

    • (Score: 3, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 23 2015, @06:33AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 23 2015, @06:33AM (#253513)

      It suddenly became obvious that all these "world leaders" are just grasping at straws, doing their best when they are actually overwhelmed, and they're just being carried by history like the rest of us.

      That's what they want you to think.

      Where is OBL's body again?

      • (Score: 2, Insightful) by khallow on Friday October 23 2015, @04:27PM

        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Friday October 23 2015, @04:27PM (#253640) Journal

        That's what they want you to think.

        Sure they do. That's our modern masters. So competent they can anticipate every possible rebuttal. So incompetent that they do so in a really clueless way.

        Where is OBL's body again?

        Doesn't matter. If they really were that competent, they would have a body.

        • (Score: 4, Informative) by unzombied on Friday October 23 2015, @07:20PM

          by unzombied (4572) on Friday October 23 2015, @07:20PM (#253710)

          If they really were that competent, they would have a body.

          If they really were that competent, they would have a trial at the International Criminal Court before deciding judgment.

          • (Score: 1) by khallow on Friday October 23 2015, @08:38PM

            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Friday October 23 2015, @08:38PM (#253784) Journal
            At least as of now, no one is competent enough to turn war into a crime without killing people in the process.
    • (Score: 2) by frojack on Friday October 23 2015, @06:50AM

      by frojack (1554) on Friday October 23 2015, @06:50AM (#253517) Journal

      Actually, knowing this government, I doubt that a secret could have been kept for any significant length of time, and a move would have had to be made within a small number of months after locating Bin Laden, regardless of the source of the information.

      As for all the Revelations being scary, before you waste any time being scared, wait a few years till the real truth comes out, instead of rushing to believe some journalist looking for a scoop. It could end up being far worse than you think, or it could be like most conspiracy stories, nothing but hard to prove lies.

      --
      No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 23 2015, @07:23AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 23 2015, @07:23AM (#253521)

        Actually, knowing this government, I doubt that a secret could have been kept for any significant length of time, and a move would have had to be made within a small number of months after locating Bin Laden, regardless of the source of the information.

        One of the rumors was that the US had known his location for years, and the only reason they went after him was that they were worried that this knowledge was among the data that was sent to Wikileaks (yes, Wikileaks was active before the Snowden and Manning leaks).

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 23 2015, @08:21AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 23 2015, @08:21AM (#253530)

          Weren't public opinion polls for Obama on the way down at the time? And didn't this take place around the time that he would have been starting the campaign for re-election?

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 23 2015, @04:29PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 23 2015, @04:29PM (#253642)

            Weren't public opinion polls for Obama on the way down at the time? And didn't this take place around the time that he would have been starting the campaign for re-election?

            The big hole in the conspiracy theory you are trying to paint is that if this raid had gone wrong Obama's chances at being re-elected would have been absolutely nil. Just ask Jimmy Carter; he can tell you a thing or two about daring raids that go wrong and the political consequences.

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Phoenix666 on Friday October 23 2015, @09:22AM

      by Phoenix666 (552) on Friday October 23 2015, @09:22AM (#253548) Journal

      And then, suddenly, out comes the president of the US, relieved at having successfully killed a relatively defenceless old guy in his bedroom. It suddenly became obvious that all these "world leaders" are just grasping at straws, doing their best when they are actually overwhelmed, and they're just being carried by history like the rest of us. Even though their actions have severe consequences for everyone, they usually have no idea what those consequences are...

      I worked for an American President. This what you said is 100% true. It is why the absolutely most important part of the president's team is the press department, because controlling the narrative about what happens is critical. So when something happens, making sure it fits into the story you're trying to peddle is what they hyperventilate about. Actually doing something about the thing that happens, trying to solve problems and, you know, help people, is the furthest thing from their minds and their ability. Their concern is that they come out of it smelling like a rose and with more money and power. That is the heart of the saying you often hear, "Let no good crisis go to waste."

      TFA is about the breakdown of that ability in the age of the Internet. It's too easy now for people to get the real facts and form different narratives substantiated by those facts. And every time the official narrative is shown demonstrably to be a lie, the system loses more authority. One feels that a system cannot infinitely lose authority before it falls apart, to be replaced by something else.

      All of these revelations are scary, because they show just how chaotic history really is, but they actually make perfect sense. It's just that I would like not to believe them. And I honestly have no idea how to convince people in general that they can't let themselves be overwhelmed by the fear, since I myself don't like to think about these things.

      And this right here is now the last thing holding the cruft that is the trainwreck of the old system in place, because people don't want to know. Their fear of the unknown, their fear that their understanding of the world is an illusion based on a web of deliberate lies, keeps them cowed. But knowing that the system is broken and incapable and corrupt is not to say that it's impossible to solve problems or for human beings to work productively together. It is.

      I have been fortunate enough to work with teams that mesh, that eat show-stopping problems for breakfast and ask for seconds. Not often, just once or twice. But enough to know it's possible. Some others on SN may have had that experience, too. I also know what an immense difference it makes when just one person with desire and ability commits to making that difference. Soylent itself is a case in point. A handful of people have built the machinery that runs this place. Those who comment help build it, too, to be sure, but without those handful of people building the machinery there's nothing around which this community can coallesce. In practice it's exhausting for the handful, but also empowering because it does matter if they stop working. It does matter if they give up. And it does matter if the rest of us say thank you and give them the mental energy, the psychic resources they must have to keep going.

      I digress, but it is possible for small, committed groups of people to build something better than this trainwreck of a system, and that gives me hope. But the first step, that you zeroed in on, is to lose the fear.

      It is a shame you posted this anonymously, AC, because it is one of the most astute observations I've read in a while. Had you posted under a registered username I would pay extra attention to your future comments, because you have insight.

      --
      Washington DC delenda est.
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 23 2015, @10:37AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 23 2015, @10:37AM (#253555)

        thank you.

      • (Score: 5, Insightful) by RamiK on Friday October 23 2015, @11:48AM

        by RamiK (1813) on Friday October 23 2015, @11:48AM (#253566)

        One feels that a system cannot infinitely lose authority before it falls apart, to be replaced by something else.

        Wrong. An office can be completely depleted from power until it's only an honorary position. The most extreme example is the king of England but the fall of Roman republic is filled with comities, civil \ military tribunals, magistrates and etc... shifting power from one class's leadership to the next by depleting a standing comity from authority while keeping that comity alive so it won't look like a revolution. The last such maneuver was the rise of the empire.

        In this day of age we privatize services to non-profits: We shift the first generation's power from executive to oversight. The second generation bureaucrats is then re-structured (to reflect their oversight duty instead of their executive powers) into a hierarchy so they only serve reports and have no means to charge complaints without the support of their managers. The third generation privatizes the oversight itself finally leaving the office as a rubber stamp for the politician to appoint an executive contractor and an oversight contractor.
        This is how governments all over the world do everything nowadays.

        --
        compiling...
      • (Score: 1, Flamebait) by zugedneb on Friday October 23 2015, @01:47PM

        by zugedneb (4556) on Friday October 23 2015, @01:47PM (#253591)

        Knowledge and will, bro, is not enough.
        Preaching to the choir is also not enough.

        You have to be a disgusting, disgusting person to achieve something.
        Like, as example the jews.
        Sure, many are educated and such, but partly the are standing not on the shoulders of giants but mountains of "claimed dead", and partly they own a lot of the media and produce content that you (me and many here) would not read even in prison.

        The disgusting is, bro, what is called "financed".
        And they are financed by those you would want to save, namely the innocent civilian, the human =)

        I digress, but it is possible for small, committed groups of people to build something better than this trainwreck of a system, and that gives me hope. But the first step, that you zeroed in on, is to lose the fear.

        Not that I disagree, but pull that sentence to your pregnant wife, or to your friend with 3 kids...

        U see, this is why I troll. Cuz u are idiots.
        The jews own the people, through the spiritually compatible merchandise they sell the people. The government is just some guys with money, who do what they can allow themselves.
        The people need not guys like me looking like a russian criminal, promising to fight to death for them.
        The people need not the government - the gamblers and wardogs on the "international arena". (wtf is that even?)
        The probably need not mad kings and shining paladins either.

        The people need, and choose, the sophisticated and disgusting jews, even if they become owned and pwnd by them.

        --
        old saying: "a troll is a window into the soul of humanity" + also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ajax
        • (Score: 1, Flamebait) by zugedneb on Friday October 23 2015, @02:10PM

          by zugedneb (4556) on Friday October 23 2015, @02:10PM (#253598)

          One of the "aha, wow" moments for me was when an ex swedish minister of state, Göran Persson, told how he did and felt, when he went to borrow money to keep the swedish welfare afloat, cuz taxes were not enought to cover for the feast.
          What is a government, when the banks (and jews, for sake of argument) ended up with the power and money?
          The government has only the power it gets through the taxes.
          If people pour and not enough tax and nobody gives or lends, they can sit the chamberpot made up by the country borders and wait for tourists to come and fuck small children...
          And when the people work and pull a country to its feet, they give it away then to the "government". Or corporations... Or whatever.

          There was/are a lot of people and media badmouthing the dude, the swedish minister, without even knowing how their fucking country works.
          People are shit.

          I am not s sophisticated, although educated as hell...
          Inside, I am a natural born military personal type of guy.
          But I say, fuck the people. Let the jews and banks own them, as they are incapable of caring for their country and government.
          Fucking tired of always relying on "special groups", to defeat corrupt government, build new government, watching the watcher, or what the fuck their are needed to do.

          The best moment in a film ever is when, in Battlestar Galactica, some bozo trying to force the wife of the chief (the engineer) to pull the trigger on an enemy, and the wife can't pull the trigger. AHAHAHAHA...

          I wish, all brutal people, who know blood and combat, would say "no more" and would just take their wives and daughters, priests and psychiatrist to the slaughter.
          "U pull the trigger, u coward, embedded, safe fucking worm of human being... No more special groups that take care of u. U fucking do it urself!1!!!11"

          but alas...
          what a stupid fucking rant...

          --
          old saying: "a troll is a window into the soul of humanity" + also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ajax
      • (Score: 2) by jdavidb on Friday October 23 2015, @05:57PM

        by jdavidb (5690) on Friday October 23 2015, @05:57PM (#253673) Homepage Journal

        Soylent itself is a case in point. A handful of people have built the machinery that runs this place. Those who comment help build it, too, to be sure, but without those handful of people building the machinery there's nothing around which this community can coallesce. In practice it's exhausting for the handful, but also empowering because it does matter if they stop working. It does matter if they give up. And it does matter if the rest of us say thank you and give them the mental energy, the psychic resources they must have to keep going.

        I'm way off topic, now, but if any of you guys are reading this - thanks!

        --
        ⓋⒶ☮✝🕊 Secession is the right of all sentient beings
      • (Score: 2) by Hyperturtle on Friday October 23 2015, @08:41PM

        by Hyperturtle (2824) on Friday October 23 2015, @08:41PM (#253788)

        I think that when the new system comes, he will still have a role. I wouldn't hold it against him (assuming he is a he) for remaining anonymous. You know we're on the right track when we find someone that has similar thoughts under a valid username. Maybe that person won't admit to being our AC in question, maybe not.

        There is nothing wrong with courage coming through after seeing how it is done, since only fools rush in. I too stand back and let the experts handle things, and then offer to help and do what I can. The hardest thing one can do is lead -- you have to be very good at not having nearly as high of a level of skills your wide team of specialists has. You have to be a leader, a skill few specialists have.

        This person could be a leader in training, in waiting, or just doesn't know it yet. Certainly one may want to express opinions unbecoming to a leader.

        If I tried to write anon now, I think people could likely identify me at this point, or may try to. So I log in when I can and try to prevent someone innocent for getting blamed from a post I might make AC because I didn't log in...

        When we hit 10,000 users, 100,000 users -- we'll have more like him, but I have no problems with anonymous people remaining anonymous. Some people do not want the recognition, and some of those are the best people I've worked with. They are so hard to reward, and the expression of gratitude like yours (and hopefully mine) might go farther than any moderation or karma score could provide.

    • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Thexalon on Friday October 23 2015, @02:09PM

      by Thexalon (636) on Friday October 23 2015, @02:09PM (#253596)

      Actually, none of that was what really jumped out at me.

      According to the official story, they captured OBL alive, then killed him and dumped him in the Indian Ocean. But that's a dumb move if your primary goal is fighting terrorism - if your goal is fighting terrorism, your next step is to lock him up and send in one of your best interrogators to learn about everything he was coordinating, who he was coordinating it with, and as much about their specific plans as possible. Whereas if you kill him immediately, you lose access to all the information he had about Al Qaida and its activities. So based on that, why kill him?

      But I don't think that leads to the conclusion that he's still alive secretly somewhere. Instead, it leads to the conclusion that he's dead not because of anything to do with terrorism but because of something that he knew that he wasn't supposed to know. That something probably had something to do with his relationship with the CIA that was established back in the 1980's. Indeed, it might have been what turned him from a CIA asset fighting the Russians into a terrorist fighting the US. I also don't think he's the only person from a faraway country that has been declared a terrorist leader for that very reason. And whatever it is, it's something the CIA definitely does not want the US public to know - my guess is past actions by CIA personnel that would land them at the International Criminal Court at the Hague if anybody had definitive evidence.

      --
      The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
    • (Score: 2) by Balderdash on Saturday October 24 2015, @02:59AM

      by Balderdash (693) on Saturday October 24 2015, @02:59AM (#253886)

      Bin Laden died in the winter of 2001 due to complications related to renal failure.

      --
      I browse at -1. Free and open discourse requires consideration and review of all attempts at participation.
  • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 23 2015, @06:20AM

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 23 2015, @06:20AM (#253512)
    • (Score: 1, Disagree) by Ethanol-fueled on Friday October 23 2015, @06:39AM

      by Ethanol-fueled (2792) on Friday October 23 2015, @06:39AM (#253515) Homepage

      Thanks for pointing that out -- the trolls in that discussion are hilarious!

    • (Score: 2) by frojack on Friday October 23 2015, @07:03AM

      by frojack (1554) on Friday October 23 2015, @07:03AM (#253519) Journal

      Heh, how did I miss that story?

      --
      No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Ethanol-fueled on Friday October 23 2015, @06:35AM

    by Ethanol-fueled (2792) on Friday October 23 2015, @06:35AM (#253514) Homepage

    Of course it was bullshit. They said they buried the body at sea and avoided making it public for "dignity" reasons, but they sure had no problems displaying Uday and Qusay in public like museum exhibits. Not to mention this hilariously cartoonish [nydailynews.com] staged P.R. image taking place in the Washington Situation room during the raid that led to neutralizing Bin Laden. The women with the dark hair and the beady eyes standing behind everybody else in that picture is probably the one who relays orders to the White House from their real masters.

    Then there's this. [markhumphrys.com] The day I found out about his death, I was at work in a place with a lot of ex-military. While some were all "America, fuck yeah!" others were skeptical and disappointed how swift and secrecy-clad the burial was. Being more public about it and providing proof would have offered some kind of closure to weary Americans, but you and I know that they don't want closure. They want this damned "war on terror" to continue indefinitely in the hopes of winning a war on terror by being afraid of everything.

    I hope some administration or organization blows the lid off of this shit in the future when Bush, Blair, and Cheney are being tried at the Hague for crimes against civilization.

    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 23 2015, @07:26AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 23 2015, @07:26AM (#253524)

      The whole thing did stink, but the reasoning of the authors is flawed.

      This is OBAMA, right before an election year. Yeah, I kinda think he might decide to use the military to go after a man responsible for 9/11 for political points, principles, all of the above really. We are talking about Navy Seals being sent, not PFC Gomer Pyle. Seemingly suicidal mission? Yeah, I'm sure they're clenching their dresses with worry right before the missions. Perhaps I watched Chuck Norris too much in the 80's, but when you needed to do something as difficult and hardcore as the article implies.... you called Chuck Norris. If you wanted it quiet, you used the Seals. Absolutely, I completely believe they would still be sent under those conditions.

      It's so implausible to this guy that a retired intelligence officer went after the reward. Totally. Huge, lotto like, multi-million dollar bribes are not known to be successful right? If they really did know about it for awhile, the sympathizers could only keep a lid on it for so long anyways. That link about the general knowing what and when? He admits it was most likely known information, but that intelligence was keeping him as an asset for a rainy day. That doesn't support a conspiracy, and supports Osama being where they said he was for reasons that are entirely reasonable and familiar for an intelligence agency to do.

      The arguments are complete shit, but you nailed the single two greatest arguments about it being fake:

      1) The body was immediately buried out of a concern for reprisals if respects were not paid to a terrorist. The U.S doesn't negotiate with terrorists, period. Most countries do not, and there doesn't seem to be an overabundance of concern in the U.S about hurting Muslim feelings. Anywhere. So why all of the sudden the kowtowing to the Muslim world and signs of respect, when it was so short-lived anyways? After killing him, was that gesture really going to avoid another great attack? "We were going to nuke Miami, but just for that, New Jersey instead".

      2) Where da body? Proof? No country has ever acknowledged, IIRC, that the U.S ever provided any DNA evidence collected at the scene, or from the body. Amazingly, they didn't just preserve his dignity by observing the quick burial, but by also failing to store any DNA or samples whatsoever, for any country, or interested parties, at all. *Where* did the decide to bury it? Secret grave near Mecca or something nice sounding like that where we could pick him up later? Could of upped the ante on the kowtowing with a nice description of how his grave overlook's that place where the Prophet stood in that one place and did that thing. Nope, deepest part of the fucking ocean, off the deck of an U.S Air Craft carrier. Of which, out of all the places on the planet, is probably pretty secure from eavesdropping by anything but space, or damn near it. On the entire trip there, which had many opportunities for other country's to have a "viewing" session, nobody saw shit, took shit, sampled shit, literally sampled his literal shit even. Nothing. Only since JFK has the 72-hours following somebody's death been as filled with as much tom foolery and questions.

      That makes sense. I can piss off a traffic cop in the right places now, and they will sample my DNA, but not Bin Laden's?

      Yeah, its smelled like bullshit from here too for some time.

      • (Score: 2) by frojack on Friday October 23 2015, @08:13AM

        by frojack (1554) on Friday October 23 2015, @08:13AM (#253528) Journal

        Nobody believes they didn't take DNA.
        Nobody.

        Just because they haven't shown it to you doesn't mean they don't have it.

        Nobody believes they didn't take pictures of the body.
        Nobody.
        But they haven't shown you those either.

        --
        No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
        • (Score: 1) by Ethanol-fueled on Friday October 23 2015, @08:43AM

          by Ethanol-fueled (2792) on Friday October 23 2015, @08:43AM (#253539) Homepage

          Our media said that samples were taken and verified, and if he is the most wanted man on the planet then somebody had to have a more persistent and accessible sample anyway.

          The funny thing is that I believe that. The official story surrounding the death itself, not so much.

          • (Score: 2) by frojack on Friday October 23 2015, @06:32PM

            by frojack (1554) on Friday October 23 2015, @06:32PM (#253696) Journal

            The US made special attempts to get sibling DNA through the Saudis.
            I think, (but don't know for sure) that they were successful.

            --
            No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
        • (Score: 2) by NickFortune on Friday October 23 2015, @02:34PM

          by NickFortune (3267) on Friday October 23 2015, @02:34PM (#253609)

          Nobody believes they didn't take DNA.
          Nobody.

          Just because they haven't shown it to you doesn't mean they don't have it.

          So ... the proof that these things exist is that we haven't any evidence? Cool!

          "Oh! Let us never, never doubt
            What nobody is sure about!"

          • (Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Friday October 23 2015, @04:05PM

            by tangomargarine (667) on Friday October 23 2015, @04:05PM (#253633)

            The AC's argument was that lack of evidence that they do have it is evidence that they don't.

            We're talking about conspiracy theories and you disagree with the guy saying you're not being skeptical enough?

            --
            "Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
            • (Score: 2) by NickFortune on Friday October 23 2015, @06:15PM

              by NickFortune (3267) on Friday October 23 2015, @06:15PM (#253687)

              Well strictly speaking, the lack of evidence is evidence that we don't have any evidence. And nothing else.

              That much is true, no matter what side of the argument you're on.

              Do I think the lack of a body is suspicious? Yes. Do I think they took DNA samples? What difference would that make, either way? They could have DNA samples and he could be walking around alive and well. Or he could be dead as a doornail and the samples fell out of the plane and were lost.

              The lack of evidence is only evidence that we don't have any evidence.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 23 2015, @04:22PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 23 2015, @04:22PM (#253637)

            So ... the proof that these things exist is that we haven't any evidence? Cool!

            No, you blithering nitwit! No "proof" is being offered to you. We don't have time to engage conspiracy theory wingnuts like the lot of you commenting here. You can believe whatever the hell you want to believe. The rest of us are all just going to laugh at you while we watch you chase your tails. Is it crystal clear now?

            • (Score: 2) by NickFortune on Friday October 23 2015, @06:10PM

              by NickFortune (3267) on Friday October 23 2015, @06:10PM (#253685)

              You're supposed to say "fnord" after a paragraph like that one.

              Kids these days ... no respect for tradition.

      • (Score: 4, Interesting) by BasilBrush on Friday October 23 2015, @08:27AM

        by BasilBrush (3994) on Friday October 23 2015, @08:27AM (#253532)

        Your problem with the theory that it wasn't Bin Laden is: Why hasn't Bin Laden popped up somewhere else. Or at least why are the US government not concerned that he might? Why have Al Queda accepted the news that he's dead, right from the moment and to this day?

        So much for your conspiracy theory. Occam's razor is that Bin Laden was indeed killed that day.

        As for the "live feed" being busted from a lack of helmet cams... What kind of idiot ever imagined they were getting a first person shooter live feed to the Whitehouse. The politicians in that room don't want to see a multiple snuff movie live any more than any normal civvy. Clearly it was a feed to the military situation room.

        --
        Hurrah! Quoting works now!
        • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Ethanol-fueled on Friday October 23 2015, @09:21AM

          by Ethanol-fueled (2792) on Friday October 23 2015, @09:21AM (#253547) Homepage

          It was when Bin Laden was alive that Al-Qaeda was established as an ideology rather than an organization of people -- that was central to framing the war on terror as a perpetual undertaking rather than simply a battle to be won.

          Al-Qaeda, ISIS, You-SIS, We-SIS, whatever the terrorist bad-guys of the day call themselves, the struggle never ends. We've always been at war with Eurasia.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 23 2015, @09:27AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 23 2015, @09:27AM (#253549)

          Re not bin laden:
          1. No doubt AQ find the story - assassinated by the great satan - is a much better than, he died 5 years earlier in some pedestrian way like falling off a camel on amountain pass, or blowing up while making a bomb.
          2. Else simply retiring on a CIA pension seems just as plausible.

          Even so, I agree ... anything else - other than killed by raiders (near enough as claimed, allowed or not) - would seem less likely.

        • (Score: 3, Interesting) by curunir_wolf on Friday October 23 2015, @10:59AM

          by curunir_wolf (4772) on Friday October 23 2015, @10:59AM (#253560)

          Your problem with the theory that it wasn't Bin Laden is: Why hasn't Bin Laden popped up somewhere else. Or at least why are the US government not concerned that he might?

          Because he's been dead since December, 2001 [nytimes.com]. Duh. Subsequent videos were actually a look-alike, done to keep the legend going and the troops motivated.

          --
          I am a crackpot
        • (Score: 2) by NickFortune on Saturday October 24 2015, @06:45AM

          by NickFortune (3267) on Saturday October 24 2015, @06:45AM (#253930)

          Your problem with the theory that it wasn't Bin Laden is: Why hasn't Bin Laden popped up somewhere else

          Maybe he found another job. I mean he spent the best part of a decade playing Doctor Evil so that Tony Blair could pretend to be Austin Powers and GWB could be his comedy sidekick. (Probably not how Dubya thought it would play out, but that's show biz).

          Anyone can get tired of a role after a run like that.

          • (Score: 2) by NickFortune on Saturday October 24 2015, @06:50AM

            by NickFortune (3267) on Saturday October 24 2015, @06:50AM (#253931)

            Meh. Hit "post" instead of "preview". Oh well, you get the idea.

  • (Score: 5, Interesting) by frojack on Friday October 23 2015, @06:41AM

    by frojack (1554) on Friday October 23 2015, @06:41AM (#253516) Journal

    Cover stories prevent a lot of people getting killed. Plausible deniability was always going to be part of the story.
    I don't know a single person that believed it ever went down exactly as we were told. I don't think anybody ever expected that.
    The fiction protects people willing to help capture Bin Laden who may be still living in Pakistan, including some in the Pakistani intelligence service, who were never trusted by their own government.
    There are still secrets about WWII that aren't admitted.

    Pakistani West Point? Give me a break. Its a military high school. They students don't even have weapons.
    (Besides, is there a single person on this list that believes the Cadets at the US West Point would have the slightest clue about a Canadian fugitive hiding quietly in the suburbs on the outskirts of West Point, or that the cadets would offer any resistance if a company of Canadian Mounties arrived by helicopter to snatch him? And it it was revealed the US knew he was there all along, who would be surprised?)

    As for Pakistani air cover? They are pretty incompetent anyway, and could have simply received an evenings liberty, via real or forged orders, and we have no idea whether there was stealth air cover or not.

    I suspect much of the story was invented to save face for many different Pakistani military officers. And I'm OK with that.

    --
    No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
    • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 23 2015, @08:30AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 23 2015, @08:30AM (#253533)

      A terrible plan if one RPG could have totally ruined it...

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 23 2015, @10:57AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 23 2015, @10:57AM (#253558)

      There are still secrets about WWII that aren't admitted.

      Like what? Genuinely curious, not being sarcastic.

      • (Score: 2, Touché) by Ethanol-fueled on Friday October 23 2015, @11:27AM

        by Ethanol-fueled (2792) on Friday October 23 2015, @11:27AM (#253564) Homepage

        Assuming a parallel between WWII and 9/11, it is in the air that Pearl Harbor could have been prevented just like 9/11. But for some reason, both were allowed to happen.

        • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 23 2015, @01:18PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 23 2015, @01:18PM (#253583)

          In case anyone is interested here is a decent little article giving an overview on the pearl harbor claims.

          http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2009/1207/p02s04-usgn.html [csmonitor.com]

          • (Score: 2) by frojack on Friday October 23 2015, @06:26PM

            by frojack (1554) on Friday October 23 2015, @06:26PM (#253694) Journal

            Now now, mustn't let facts and reasoning interfere with the conspiracy nut-jobs.

            --
            No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by tangomargarine on Friday October 23 2015, @03:58PM

      by tangomargarine (667) on Friday October 23 2015, @03:58PM (#253630)

      or that the cadets would offer any resistance if a company of Canadian Mounties arrived by helicopter to snatch him?

      We're even talking about special forces. A bunch of guys in black with night vision and silenced submachine guns or whatever, presumably roping down from one of those stealth helicopters.

      Definitely not intimidating at all ;)

      --
      "Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
      • (Score: 0, Disagree) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 23 2015, @05:59PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 23 2015, @05:59PM (#253676)

        frojack is one of those people that can write well and conform to the interests of their general audience, but if you dig a millimeter below that topsoil you realize his firm grounding in reality is actually a cow-manure bog.

        • (Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Sunday October 25 2015, @01:01AM

          by tangomargarine (667) on Sunday October 25 2015, @01:01AM (#254165)

          Good thing I wasn't agreeing with him. Then I might've looked *really* foolish.

          --
          "Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
  • (Score: 3, Flamebait) by ledow on Friday October 23 2015, @07:31AM

    by ledow (5567) on Friday October 23 2015, @07:31AM (#253526) Homepage

    And to be honest, because of the way it was done, we can't even be sure that he is dead. We can suspect that to be the case but can't ever be certain now (maybe in 50 years, we can say that in all likelihood he's dead, but that's about it).

    For all we know, he's in Guantanamo being beaten every day to show him how "civilised" countries behave and apply the rule of law, rather than just acting like a bunch of violent terrorists. *cough*.

    • (Score: 2) by frojack on Friday October 23 2015, @08:17AM

      by frojack (1554) on Friday October 23 2015, @08:17AM (#253529) Journal

      Well, the videos and tth tapes stopped arriving. Maybe he's in witness protection?

      --
      No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
      • (Score: 2) by Hyperturtle on Friday October 23 2015, @07:09PM

        by Hyperturtle (2824) on Friday October 23 2015, @07:09PM (#253707)

        Indeed, if he isn't a corpse, then he's either been scared stiff and acting like one, or he's been secured.

        Or maybe they went through a sudden and violent theological upheaval and decided to pursue other means to secure their religious interests, regardless of what happened to him. Perhaps hes watching from a distance or he's as dead as claimed.

        That ISIS thing seems to be working out better for them, and perhaps was spurred on by a vacuum in leadership. It seems that this particular bogeyman is no longer a valid reference point when such a dynamic new one has arisen to take his place.

        • (Score: 2) by frojack on Friday October 23 2015, @07:25PM

          by frojack (1554) on Friday October 23 2015, @07:25PM (#253714) Journal

          or he's been secured.

          But did he ever return?
          No he never returned and his fate is still unlearned
          He may ride forever 'neath the streets of Boston
          He's the man who never returned.

          --
          No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
    • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 23 2015, @08:33AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 23 2015, @08:33AM (#253535)

      Maybe he is just hanging out in Saudi Arabia with the rest of his family... Eating grapes, drinking wine, smoking hashish, and enjoying a minor surgical disguise!

      Who knows?!

      Americans gave more respect to the Nazis and actually PUT THEM ON TRIAL so that the entire world could see them punished and make a statement.
      Bin Laden? "Oh we dumped him in the ocean for... reasons..."

      Sounds legit!

      • (Score: 2) by wonkey_monkey on Friday October 23 2015, @03:40PM

        by wonkey_monkey (279) on Friday October 23 2015, @03:40PM (#253625) Homepage

        Americans gave more respect to the Nazis and actually PUT THEM ON TRIAL so that the entire world could see them punished and make a statement.

        To be fair, they only did that to the ones they hadn't already shot and killed.

        --
        systemd is Roko's Basilisk
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 23 2015, @04:10PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 23 2015, @04:10PM (#253634)

        I'm sure that trial wouldn't be bombed

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 23 2015, @08:43AM

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 23 2015, @08:43AM (#253540)

    I guess all we need to know is history is written by winners / survivors. But you can always get a second opinion... oh wait you can't.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 23 2015, @04:38PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 23 2015, @04:38PM (#253645)

      I guess all we need to know is history is written by winners / survivors. But you can always get a second opinion... oh wait you can't.

      So, I guess all the people commenting here with their "alternative versions" of what really happened in Abbotabad are just a figment of my imagination?

    • (Score: 2) by turgid on Friday October 23 2015, @08:27PM

      by turgid (4318) Subscriber Badge on Friday October 23 2015, @08:27PM (#253769) Journal

      I'm sure that nice Mr Putin [youtube.com] will tell you the truth.

  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Freeman on Friday October 23 2015, @06:18PM

    by Freeman (732) on Friday October 23 2015, @06:18PM (#253690) Journal

    "No easy day" by Mark Owen is a good place to start, if you want to know what the Government would like for you to know. You can talk conspiracy all you want. I personally believe that a Navy Seal team took him out. I don't have a problem with that. Actions have consequences, if you want to start a "holy war" or any war; then be prepared for the fallout. The JFK Assassination was a lot more controversial. What would have happened, if we had put Osama's body on display? How about increased likelihood for more terrorist actions? Much easier to unceremoniously dump his body in the ocean. No celebration, no fan fare. Just business as usual. No need to draw more attention to him or his "ideals".

    --
    Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
  • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 23 2015, @08:24PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 23 2015, @08:24PM (#253759)

    Elvis shot Bin Laden. Uh huh huh...