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posted by LaminatorX on Monday April 07 2014, @08:51AM   Printer-friendly
from the Don't-be-a-jerk! dept.

Written in a New York Times article and summarily paraphrased here,

Elissa Shevinsky can pinpoint the moment when she felt that she no longer belonged. She was at a friend's house watching the live stream of the TechCrunch Disrupt hackathon, when she saw that it opened with two men who developed an app called Titstare. After some banter, one of Titstare's developers proudly proclaimed, "This is the breast hack ever."

Ms. Shevinsky felt pushed to the edge. Women who enter fields dominated by men often feel this way. "It's a thousand tiny paper cuts," is how Ashe Dryden, a programmer who now consults on increasing diversity in technology, described working in tech. Women in tech like Shevinsky and Dryden advocate working to change the tech culture from inside-out, but other women like Lea Verou write that,

' women-only conferences and hackathons cultivate the notion that women are these weak beings who find their male colleagues too intimidating...As a woman, I find it insulting and patronizing to be viewed that way.'

This all being hot on the heels of engineer Julie Ann Horvath's departure from Github as a result of similar concern.

Any of you care to address your own personal experiences or opinions regarding the subject matter; as well as the accuracy of the articles' stories compared to the industry-at-large?

 
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  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 09 2014, @08:22PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 09 2014, @08:22PM (#29075)

    I should probably just let this go, but wasting time is one of my favorite pastimes. :p

    You claim that we have an imbalance of sexes in tech, that a more equally represented economy results in faster progress, and that we need more women in tech. You make these claims without offering a shred of evidence to support your case.

    It's certainly true that more men work in tech than do women. Does that necessarily constitute an imbalance? More men work in mining than do women, or as furniture movers. Is there an imbalance of the sexes in those professions? Or do those professions naturally lend themselves to masculine talents and characteristics? The answer should be obvious!

    I posit that this is also the case in tech. It's just less obvious because tech lends itself to masculine cognitive abilities rather than masculine physical abilities, and the difference between masculine and feminine cognitive abilities doesn't jump out at you the way the difference between masculine and feminine physical abilities does. Nevertheless, there is a difference, and that difference is rather pronounced.

    Claiming that more equally represented economies progress faster is, frankly speaking, nonsense. Historically speaking, economic progress correlates positively with economic freedom, which in turn correlates positively with economic inequality.

    You seem to be claiming that tech would progress faster if the ratio of tech workers were more evenly split between male and female. Would mining progress faster if we had more female miners? How about furniture moving? Again, the answer should be obvious.

    Which brings us to, "We need more women in our profession." Why? Do they bring something unique to the table? Are codes written by a female somehow superior to codes written by a male? Are they less buggy, better documented, more efficient, etc.? No, of course not. What you actually mean when you claim we need more women in tech, is that changing tech culture to accommodate female tastes is a righteous endeavor.

    Tech is a refuge for over-intelligent socially awkward males. It's a place where they can be accepted despite their social awkwardness, where they can make themselves useful, where they can thrive amongst like minded individuals. You and the rest of the gender warriors are claiming that is unacceptable, because women find that social awkwardness off-putting, while at the same time wanting a piece of the tech sector pie.

    Sorry but women don't have any right to a slice of the pie. By right, that pie belongs to the socially awkward boys and men who gathered the ingredients and baked it, while being ostracized and belittled for spending too much time with their toys, instead of engaging in more normal and worthwhile activities like chasing girls and women. Now that the pie is out of the oven and it smells oh so tasty, the same people who engaged in belittling the bakers are demanding a seat at the table... And that the baker be removed from the premises because he's creepy. Can you say entitlement complex? I can!

    The irony is that these guys would like nothing more than to share a slice of pie with a pretty girl. Shit, most of them would give her the whole pie for noting more than a smile and a bat of the eyelashes, no matter how feigned. What we won't do is cave to the social demands of the same people who excluded us socially, forcing us to create our own subcultures. Those base our belong to US. If your kind want in then you can either play by our rules, or you can try and conquer us. It's obvious that the latter is the chosen tactic in this struggle (it's a war, complete with dead and injured). I say good luck to you. Your opponent is highly capable. And should you manage to win, I would admonish you to remember that the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

  • (Score: 1) by cubancigar11 on Thursday April 10 2014, @07:42AM

    by cubancigar11 (330) on Thursday April 10 2014, @07:42AM (#29315) Homepage Journal

    Or do those professions naturally lend themselves to masculine talents and characteristics? The answer should be obvious!

    Okay, man. IT profession has been thoroughly studied and the management has a clear list of talents and characteristics. The burden of proof lies on YOU if you say that those are masculine and women are incapable of those talents and characteristics.

    Let us say, software guys are all about logic - YOU need to PROVE that not being logical is feminine. Because unless you do so, you are just sexist. There has been no proof till now that says women are less logical. In fact, I know a lot of men who are just too stupid and I have happened to be around women who were really really smart, may be smarter than me. Those stupid men get called feminine and those intelligent women get called masculine but that is the problem of caller, who is a sexist.

    Tech is a refuge for over-intelligent socially awkward males. It's a place where they can be accepted despite their social awkwardness...

    You have bought into 90's tv tropes [tvtropes.org]. Tech is not a refuge for over-intelligent - physics and maths is. Let me remind you that we haven't yet settled the difference between computer science and computer engineering. Socially awkward males, bullied males - they are the creation of American media - they aren't really common in real life. You should take that as an advice because some asshole manager who is DEFINITELY less competent that you WILL screw you very badly. If I am lenient, I will say it is a problem of American culture. Asian cultures, and to some extent even West European cultures, don't have this problem - topper boys get the topper girls. Intelligence is hot - boys or girls.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday April 11 2014, @03:27AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday April 11 2014, @03:27AM (#29831)

      Who said anything about "women" being "incapable"? What I said is mining, moving furniture, and tech development lend themselves to masculine traits and characteristics. There are certainly women capable of doing any of those things, I just wouldn't expect anything approaching a 50/50 sex ratio to naturally occur in any of those professions.

      The burden of proof is on me huh? Do I have to prove that water is wet too?

      http://www.capt.org/mbti-assessment/estimated-freq uencies.htm [capt.org]

      • (Score: 1) by cubancigar11 on Friday April 11 2014, @04:28AM

        by cubancigar11 (330) on Friday April 11 2014, @04:28AM (#29855) Homepage Journal

        What I said is mining, moving furniture, and tech development lend themselves to masculine traits and characteristics.

        One of those things doesn't match the other. Guess which one.

        Your citation doesn't say why females are biased against tech development or the 'traits and characteristics' of tech development.

        I am assuming what you meant to say was that tech development lends itself to 'socialy awkard' people and men, according to your citation, are more prone to it. But we are back to square one - what proof do you that being socially awkard lends itself to tech development?

        Talking to you I feel like I am doing more damage than construction. I will stop this discussion here.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday April 11 2014, @09:46PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday April 11 2014, @09:46PM (#30303)

          No, you feel like you are losing the debate. That's because you are.

          How on Earth did you come to the conclusion that those figures demonstrate that males are more prone to social awkwardness? It says nothing of the sort, unless you happen to be defining introverted as socially awkward and extroverted as socially normal. Even if that's the case, the difference is a mere 5 percent.

          The part of note, which you are conveniently ignoring, is that males fit in the thinking archetype about 2/3 of the time, and females fit in the feeling archetype about (greater than) 2/3 of the time. Those figures alone line up very well with employment figures in the tech sector.

          MEN AND WOMEN THINK DIFFERENTLY ON AVERAGE. This is supported by all kinds of evidence, physical, statistical, and anecdotal (everybody knows it's the case from personal experience, some people just can't admit it for silly existential reasons). Either you accept this as fact, in which case the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that in spite of these cognitive differences women, on average, are just as employable and just as eager to obtain employment in the tech sector as men are, or you reject what is obviously the case, in which case the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate how there aren't significant cognitive differences between men and women despite all the evidence to the contrary.

          • (Score: 1) by cubancigar11 on Saturday April 12 2014, @06:58AM

            by cubancigar11 (330) on Saturday April 12 2014, @06:58AM (#30464) Homepage Journal

            you feel like you are losing the debate

            No, I feel like I am talking with a sexist who is intent a "winning" what he considers a debate. You win, here is your internet.

            How on Earth did you come to the conclusion that those figures demonstrate that males are more prone to social awkwardness?

            Did you read my comment? I will repeat in case you didn't:
            "Your citation doesn't say why females are biased against tech development or the 'traits and characteristics' of tech development.

            I am assuming what you meant to say was that tech development lends itself to 'socialy awkard' people and men, according to your citation, are more prone to it."
            Any literate person IN THE UNIVERSE will know that a URL with some numerical figures does not an argument make. I gave you a benefit of doubt based on your previous reply. You have demostrated your inablity to comprehend before going on offensive. Sexist and Arrogant! YAY! Two internets!

            The part of note, which you are conveniently ignoring,

            Jumping over conclusions is not very masculine, cognitively speaking, you know!

            is that males fit in the thinking archetype about 2/3 of the time, and females fit in the feeling archetype about (greater than) 2/3 of the time. Those figures alone line up very well with employment figures in the tech sector.

            Are you series? First you use MBTI [wikipedia.org] to draw sweeping conclusions that MBTI itself is not designed to measure (thinking type doesn't mean what you think it means), then you declare 2/3 as some golden female-male sex ratio in tech sector? Let us do some calculations:
            1. Maximum % of men in T type = 67%
            2. Minimum % of women in T type = 24%
            3. Maxium of men / minimum of women = 67/24 = 2.79
            4. Acual ratio of men / women in tech sector: > 4 [oycf.org] in domestic industries, ~ 7.11 [qz.com], ~ 10.11 [forbes.com] for CIOs in USA
            5. Standard deviation between 2.79 and 4, 2.79 and 7.11, and 2.79 and 10.11 is left as an excercise. Hope you will do it if you are anywhere close to average male cognitive abilities.

            MEN AND WOMEN THINK DIFFERENTLY ON AVERAGE.

            Any married person will attest to that, why are you yelling?

            This is supported by all kinds of evidence, physical, statistical, and anecdotal (everybody knows it's the case from personal experience, some people just can't admit it for silly existential reasons).

            You made your point by yelling before, no need for snarky rhetoric about 'some people'.

            Either you accept this as fact, in which case the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that in spite of these cognitive differences women, on average, are just as employable

            Even after I have provided you with enough research material that points to me being correct, the burden of proof falls squarely on you because you cannot replace 'MBTI' scores with 'cognitive abilities' in middle of your argument without even declaring which 'cognitive abilities' are the basis of tech industry. Reminder: 'thinking type' doesn't mean someone is a better thinker than the other and you cannot use the words: 'women' and 'illogical' in the same sentence.

            and just as eager to obtain employment in the tech sector as men are,

            A lot of people are not eager to work under a sexist boss whether it is tech industry or not. But just to prove you wrong: "As an example, women's employment ratio in the manufacturing of electronic and communication products is 42% in 2000 in Beijing, which was higher than the average female employment ratio (38%) of that year."

            But that is not tech sector!!! That is manufacturing! I hear you.

            or you reject what is obviously the case, in which case the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate how there aren't significant cognitive differences between men and women despite all the evidence to the contrary.

            You win 3 internets and this "debate". Bye bye.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 13 2014, @09:42PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 13 2014, @09:42PM (#30994)

              Dammit, I've got a whole bunch of internets laying around. What I really wanted was a cheeseburger! :p