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A group in Washington is promoting an initiative to reduce gun crime by using laser-etched bullets to track shooters. According to their website, the data will only be used for legitimate investigations (no datamining) and secured with "recursive verification" features (sounds like a blockchain). Washington state already requires ammunition purchasers to produce valid ID when making purchases. Googling reveals that previous efforts by state legislatures to enact similar legislation have been torpedoed by the gun lobby. Initiatives are not subject to lobbying, so it should be interesting to see how the opposition tackles this campaign.
http://dosomethingwa.org
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-guns-ammunition-idUSBRE90J02K20130120
http://igg.me/at/dosomethingwa
(Score: 2) by Gravis on Wednesday February 10 2016, @07:28AM
Uhmmm. Nobody's using molten lead / recycled solder and molds anymore?
WELL DONE! you exposed that it will only work for almost all violent crime so we should scrap the entire idea! i'm so glad you posted.
((ヾ(≧皿≦；)ノ＿))Fuuuuuu—-！
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Wednesday February 10 2016, @07:56AM
I may be better to be scrapped. See... better X guilty escape than a single innocent suffer.
(in other words: how hard it would be for one to frame another for a crime?
An IP address fails to be an ID, why do you think a laser-etched code functions better?)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
(Score: 1) by anubi on Wednesday February 10 2016, @08:29AM
Now, that's even scarier.
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Gravis on Wednesday February 10 2016, @09:13AM
An IP address fails to be an ID, why do you think a laser-etched code functions better?
I don't, you presumed that. What it will do is provide information where previously there was none. It's the same reason cars have license plates.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by c0lo on Wednesday February 10 2016, @09:48AM
Unreliable or bad info is worse than no info: be it if only because takes time/resources to verify it.
What guarantees one has that the information will be reliable (or, indeed, even available)?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
(Score: 2) by Tork on Wednesday February 10 2016, @03:42PM
🏳️🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️🌈
(Score: 2) by kurenai.tsubasa on Wednesday February 10 2016, @04:49PM
For the same reason people think fingerprint locks are futuristic sci fi, the world of tomorrow, today, despite how easy they are to disable. iow, magical thinking.
At least existing forensics of rifling patterns requires some detective work to find the weapon used.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 12 2016, @12:12AM
is pure tv grade csi bullcrap.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Wednesday February 10 2016, @08:36PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
(Score: 2) by Gravis on Wednesday February 10 2016, @10:16PM
What guarantees one has that the information will be reliable (or, indeed, even available)?
why does it need to be a guarantee? what guarantee is there for serial numbers on guns? what guarantee is there for license plates on cars? should we do away with gun serial numbers and car license plates?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 11 2016, @03:23AM
Yes. Next question?
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Thursday February 11 2016, @06:37AM
To paraphrase: great costs requires great benefit. And: there's greater costs in huge numbers.
How many guns/cars in circulation in US? Now, how many bullets?
How fast/cheap a car without a license plate can be detected? Now, how would one detect a non-licensed bullet? How expensive would it be to produce such a bullet?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
(Score: 2) by Gravis on Thursday February 11 2016, @08:30AM
How many guns/cars in circulation in US? Now, how many bullets?
millions and many millions. what's your point? do you think we are going to run out of numbers or something?
How fast/cheap a car without a license plate can be detected?
it's super easy to remove and replace the plates, so you could wait until just before you commit a crime to remove them. it couldn't be detected in time to prevent crime but that's not the point of them, now is it?
Now, how would one detect a non-licensed bullet?
the same questions apply to gun serial numbers. it's after the fact but that doesn't mean we should just give up on them.
How expensive would it be to produce such a bullet?
the expense is in the time it takes, just like serial numbers on guns.
just because it doesn't work 100% of the time does not mean it's not worth doing.
(Score: 2) by Gravis on Thursday February 11 2016, @08:32AM
To paraphrase: great costs requires great benefit. And: there's greater costs in huge numbers.
why do you think it's going to cost a lot of money to simply start putting serial numbers on ammo?
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Thursday February 11 2016, @09:55AM
Come one, mate: a bullet is not a digital bitcoin (to be easy to attach a block chain to it and record the transactions). Even assuming that everything would go legit, recording a transaction of a bullet changing hands every time means quite a huge amount of info to be entered in a system. And this come with an effort: you sure do know what happens when you ask others to put an effort for you, effort from which they derive no benefit.
Plus, the entire system can be gamed so easily, this info will be unreliable at best
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
(Score: 2) by Gravis on Thursday February 11 2016, @11:51AM
It's not the etching of the codes, it's the tracking (of those great numbers of bullets) that comes with high cost.
non-sense. POS software would just be adjusted so that you scan an extra barcode on the package of bullets and maybe swipe an ID card and you are done. the transaction goes into a DB somewhere and sits until queried. why is it going to be expensive?
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Thursday February 11 2016, @12:21PM
Where's that barcode etched? If somewhere visible, then I'll guarantee you a black market of "fake barcoded bullets" will appear in a very short time - not like one has troubles in buying an engraving laser.
If it's not easily visible, then the transfer of a bullet could only be done only in specialized places. Yeah, sure, the good citizens will always do it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
(Score: 2) by Gravis on Thursday February 11 2016, @01:02PM
how many times do you have to be told?
just because it doesn't work 100% of the time does not mean it's not worth doing.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Thursday February 11 2016, @08:49PM
How many times do you have to be told: even if it works 100% of the time, it may not worth doing (due to the cost).
(your position reminds me of some micromanagers that I encountered during my professional life: putting a burden on the team of reporting on daily activities and wondering why the things progress so slow towards completion)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
(Score: 2) by Gravis on Thursday February 11 2016, @09:26PM
even if it works 100% of the time, it may not worth doing (due to the cost).
which part of a simple database of sales is going to be costly? you act like we'll have to invent some sort of new technology just to incorporate it into the existing framework of our society/economy.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Thursday February 11 2016, @11:15PM
That part in which the real-world transaction need to pause for the data to be recorded in the system. A big number of times.
Even honest players will game the system to gain back their time, making the recorded data unreliable.
Which, in turn, will cost the investigators effort to certify the data. So the investigators will use it only if everything fails.
The result? Everybody pays for little benefit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
(Score: 2) by Gravis on Friday February 12 2016, @01:53AM
That part in which the real-world transaction need to pause for the data to be recorded in the system. A big number of times.
your ID lookup would take maybe 200 milliseconds but the storage transaction would take no time because it's an asynchronous database insertion. it would be a few extra seconds for people which would be used swiping their ID.
The result? Everybody pays for little benefit.
you can't spare a few seconds to help make more murder cases solvable? are you really that self-centered?
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Friday February 12 2016, @05:26AM
Asynchronous my ass. The operation involves taking the bullet, scanning it, putting it aside, taking another and repeat. Yeah, I can really see this happening whenever a bullet (together with others) changes hands.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
(Score: 2) by Gravis on Friday February 12 2016, @05:49AM
Asynchronous my ass. The operation involves taking the bullet, scanning it, putting it aside, taking another and repeat. Yeah, I can really see this happening whenever a bullet (together with others) changes hands.
bullets are sold in boxes, so it make a lot more sense to put a barcode identifying the box number on the outside and just push that info to the database. stop making this out to be some sort of monumental effort.
(Score: 1, Troll) by c0lo on Friday February 12 2016, @06:02AM
(yeah, sure, seems wise)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
(Score: 2) by Immerman on Wednesday February 10 2016, @03:22PM
Well, you'd need to get the bullet ID associated with the framing-victim's Id. And I can only think of two ways to do that: steal their bullets, or steal their identity to buy the bullets. Or I suppose hack the database to link your purchase to their ID instead and hope that you don't overlook any backups. So three ways.
Not impossible, but not exactly convenient either.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Wednesday February 10 2016, @09:04PM
You think of a "framing a specific ID for your crime". That's a too strong requirement, it's enough to "frame some other id, no matter who but not me".
Suddenly other scenarios become possible. Like (but not limited to):
* collect some spent bullets from a shooting practice and reload them in your cartridges.
* arrange a bullet swap with some "just stick it to the man" like minded others (tell you what... I'm sure a P2P anonymized BulletSwap app would be so successful, it will appear in a week after this "solution" sees reality).
Granted, the cost of your "attack" goes up, but the "defender" (the non-criminal society) will spent a lot more to track you. Doesn't seem like a good security solution
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 10 2016, @08:24AM
umm, no. he exposed that this would not work at all for violent crime, since those users of bullets would simply make sure to make their own. if you go out to rob people at gun point, it's easy to get the ammo from some friends rather than buying it from a store.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by maxwell demon on Wednesday February 10 2016, @09:10AM
I guess it would also open up a new business opportunity for criminal organizations: Smuggling of non-etched bullets. Most of the world is not bound by American laws.
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 10 2016, @10:07AM
Oh you know, they will break in and rob people of their bullets (just like the break in to steal guns now). That way the poor SOB who bought the bullets legitimately would be the prime suspect in any crimes committed with the tagged bullets.
(Score: 2) by tibman on Wednesday February 10 2016, @03:24PM
Or just dremel/grind the etching away.
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(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday February 10 2016, @03:51PM
It's easier to make new bullets, than trying to alter bullets. Tampering with those bullets could possibly cause one to go off in your face - not likely, but possible. Far more likely is that a carelessly altered bullet lodges in the chamber or barrel of the gun, causing the firearm to explode. Barring any accidents, your altered bullets will no longer fit as precisely into the chamber and barrel, thus becoming far less accurate. Did I mention that it's easy-peasy just to make your own bullets? Lead can be melted on a kitchen stove. Molds are available on the internet. Brass, primers, and powder are all available online. The press is a little expensive, but it's also available online. Measuring tools cost little. Any wannabe criminal or criminal's helper can set up and make bullets for a living.
Hail to the Nibbler in Chief.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by kurenai.tsubasa on Wednesday February 10 2016, @05:01PM
For some reason your post made me want to link to The Gunsmith of Williamsburg [youtu.be]. (All though, that's probably a terrorist video these days since it shows how to manufacture a gun and bullets from raw materials /s.)
(Score: 2) by tibman on Wednesday February 10 2016, @05:06PM
So smelting metal ingots, pouring them into a mold, pressing the new bullet into a shell that you have cleaned and pressed a new primer into and deposited a carefully measured amount of gunpowder into... is easier than filing a laser etch off?
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(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday February 10 2016, @06:26PM
It has already been noted by another poster that the laser markings go into the tail of the bullet. You'll have to remove the bullet from the brass, do your filing or dremeling, then put the bullet back into the casing. The removal and replacement of that bullet, without resizing that casing, will likely damage either the bullet or the casing. Additionally, you have upset the ballistics of that bullet by carving into it. It may or may not fly true with scallops cut into the end of it. But, why go to all that bother, when it really is easy to produce your own without any markings?
Added benefit of making your own: you can "wildcat" the load, if you're into that sort of thing. Just add a few grains of gunpowder, and your rounds are considerably more powerful, as well as more accurate. Or, if you really want to get wild, add even more powder, turning it into a cannon. Of course, the hotter the load, the more dangerous it is to YOU. Not only will the barrel of the firearm wear out quicker, but the possibility of a round exploding in the chamber increases.
Hail to the Nibbler in Chief.
(Score: 2) by tibman on Wednesday February 10 2016, @07:39PM
Ballistics don't matter as much as you think. So much of the ammo i shoot is dinged up or with the bullet not perfectly seated (slightly tilted to one side). The bullet tips are very roughly painted to denote it's construction and/or capabilities. That paint is often partially scratched off. Bullets aren't even close to perfectly shaped. The butt end matters even less. The hot gasses often melt a hole right in the ass of the bullet (if it doesn't have a full-metal jacket, even then it may not cover the back-side). If you get a wicked ricochet (that lands near you) you can pick up the bullet with pliers and take a look. Liquid metal (lead) may be dripping out of the backside. I've had it happen with very high powered weapons. No idea if pistol ammo does the same thing. Anyways, bullet shape and defects don't affect accuracy as much as you think. Just look at hollow point. Or carve up some of your ammo the next time you go to the range.
You made good points but i don't think a criminal would do all of that. They'd just use pliers to remove the bullet, file off the etching, and re-seat the round (maybe even with a weak glue). No special tools required.
Did a quick youtube search. This guy pulls bullets with an empty case, doesn't even use pliers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVaE_LKmjPc [youtube.com] This guy here loads the bullets backwards: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZAyhv0xqUI [youtube.com]
SN won't survive on lurkers alone. Write comments.
(Score: 2) by Tork on Wednesday February 10 2016, @03:45PM
🏳️🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️🌈
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 11 2016, @03:37AM
No, the point is that this is all ridiculous.
Any serious shooter already reloads. I know half a dozen I can think of (I know, I counted) who make their own bullets as well, and you can buy bulk bullets from outside your own state.
Shooters do it for a number of reasons: cost savings, improved accuracy, specialised purposes.
So, yeah, this is based in a fantasy world. And laws based in fantasies ultimately do everybody a disservice.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday February 10 2016, @03:44PM
Actually, it won't work for "almost all violent crime" either. It may help to catch some of the stupider criminals, I'll grant that. But, as prior posts suggest, it's not high tech, or even very difficult, to produce your own bullets. Organized crime will produce their own, in quantity. By "organized crime" I don't mean just the Mafia - I mean every drug runner coming out of Mexico will be supplied by his sponsoring cartel with virgin lead bullets. Not for his own use, but for distribution among the cartel's gangs here in the states.
Seriously, it takes no great education, only some minimal education, no strength, no great skill, to make bullets. Your typical high school kid can produce a thousand rounds on a Saturday afternoon, in between a morning basketball game and getting cleaned up for a hot date.
Hail to the Nibbler in Chief.