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posted by CoolHand on Wednesday March 16 2016, @05:46PM   Printer-friendly
from the ghost-in-the-machine dept.

While many tech moguls dream of changing the way we live with new smart devices or social media apps, one Russian internet millionaire is trying to change nothing less than our destiny, by making it possible to upload a human brain to a computer, reports Tristan Quinn. "Within the next 30 years," promises Dmitry Itskov, "I am going to make sure that we can all live forever."

It sounds preposterous, but there is no doubting the seriousness of this softly spoken 35-year-old, who says he left the business world to devote himself to something more useful to humanity. "I'm 100% confident it will happen. Otherwise I wouldn't have started it," he says. It is a breathtaking ambition, but could it actually be done? Itskov doesn't have too much time to find out.

"If there is no immortality technology, I'll be dead in the next 35 years," he laments. Death is inevitable - currently at least - because as we get older the cells that make up our bodies lose their ability to repair themselves, making us vulnerable to cardiovascular disease and other age-related conditions that kill about two-thirds of us.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35786771

Horizon: The Immortalist, produced and directed by Tristan Quinn, will be shown on BBC 2 at 20:00 on Wednesday 16 March 2016 - viewers in the UK can catch up later on the BBC iPlayer

Dmitry Itskov, Founder of 2045 Initiative


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  • (Score: 4, Informative) by edIII on Wednesday March 16 2016, @07:12PM

    by edIII (791) on Wednesday March 16 2016, @07:12PM (#319136)

    My body is not my concern at all. Very seriously, my greatest fear possible is immortality with the rest of you. I'm looking forward to death myself. It's the one great adventure afforded to us all, and afterwards, I won't be here. I'll be somewhere else, where it seems intrinsically impossible for any being left here to deal with me, and for me to deal with them from the other side. It's important to me, and provides me comfort, knowing that this will all stop someday.

    Immortality in Utopia is always nice. Immortality with the rest of you in our Dystopia? Not so much. I don't want to live forever. Not with all of you the way you are now. Certainly not here under these fucking conditions. No thank you. I'd be the one walking around with a sign that says, "Can't self-terminate. Will you press the delete button for me?".

    Immortality just sounds nice on paper, but it isn't something you can actually live with. Would you be so enthused with your immortality at 895 years old, working a minimum wage job, minimum benefits, 3rd class citizen rights, while watching the bejeweled 1% gods above you in Elysium? Would you even be the same person at 895 years old? This shit only sounds good to the young, fit, and delusional. I'm not fit for immortality as a member of the slave class with no medical or benefits. How could you deal with an immortal 1%? Dystopia is a massive understatement about that world, and the 1% would value life even less then they do now, which is about zero anyways. Yay! I'm immortal and stuck in a world of massive inequality!

    Let's try to solve the problems that prevent us from living with each other now, before we figure out how to all live together forever. Immortality isn't going to stop us from killing each other, or at least attempting to do so. We absolutely suck at living with each other now. Adding immortality to it is the epitome of foolishness. If it's accomplished in such a way that we have super bodies capable of amazing repairs, prepare for long protracted war. One of the things that keeps us from fighting are the risks of fighting itself. Remove the risks, and we only have our intellectually based moral and ethical frameworks keeping us from each others throats. In other words, immortality may kill us.

    The best question you could ask people is if they wish to be immortal, but *exactly* as they are now. Forever. I honestly don't think you would have a majority of takers. The celebrities may say yes, WallStreet leeches may say yes, but the poor sob with a non-union job? Maybe not.

    --
    Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
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  • (Score: 3, Interesting) by takyon on Wednesday March 16 2016, @07:34PM

    by takyon (881) <reversethis-{gro ... s} {ta} {noykat}> on Wednesday March 16 2016, @07:34PM (#319155) Journal

    Yeah, sorry. I don't see death as a "great adventure". I see it as a likely termination of any semblance of self. I will be hanging onto life even if I'm 100,000 years old.

    Obviously there are economic issues to work out. But it's pretty certain that if the issues aren't addressed, I'll be killed in some global civil war anyway.

    There is an obvious reason to choose immortality. If every "utopian" aspect of the scenario works out, you get to explore the universe. You haven't seen a septillionth of what is out there. One slower-than-light spaceship with a self-sustaining environment onboard, and your immortalness, and you can explore indefinitely. Boredom could be solved in any number of ways, including VR or stasis between destinations.

    I wouldn't even mind living as an immortal hobo for a protracted period of time, with even worse circumstances than the minimum wage job you outlined. If it comes down to protracted war instead of utopia, I guess I'll have fun participating in that until I get blown up or diseased. If child soldiers can have fun doing it, so shall I.

    Since you clearly disagree with immortality, and others will too, I have no objection to your suicide or refusal of anti-aging treatment in these scenarios. Note that medically assisted suicide becomes legal in California on June 9th (probably relevant to a number of old Californian SoylentNews readers). You go on your "adventure", I'll go on mine.

    --
    [SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
    • (Score: 2) by edIII on Wednesday March 16 2016, @11:13PM

      by edIII (791) on Wednesday March 16 2016, @11:13PM (#319314)

      I see it as a likely termination of any semblance of self. I will be hanging onto life even if I'm 100,000 years old.

      What's wrong with the termination of any semblance of self? Is the ego even designed or suitable for immortality? That's really a philosophical discussion as I truly see myself as an immortal being already. Just one with an infinite number of faces, over a spiraling space-time, that all happened in a single moment :) This one little ego speaking with your one little ego isn't that big of deal in the face of the infinite existence out there. I'm more than EdIII, which is just a pseudonym anyways, that is also more than himself too. My "adventure" with death, isn't. I never said I believed in death as oblivion.

      100,000 years old? You sound like Gollum being both tortured and loved by his "precious". That's what I don't wish for. Turning into a desperate creature willing to do anything for further life. Infinite life is a curse if it is life continued in fear.

      Obviously there are economic issues to work out. But it's pretty certain that if the issues aren't addressed, I'll be killed in some global civil war anyway.

      The understatement of the millennium. However, it's not economic, but human. We have extremely serious issues to work out, that make it a minor miracle we're not in global civil war this second. I think this is the worst situation that humanity has ever faced. In my own estimation, there may have been more humanity in how we treated each other in the Dark Ages. What we're systematically doing to ourselves now is the very very worst of Feudalism fueled by greed and narcissism.

      Yeah. Global civil war is on the way.

      There is an obvious reason to choose immortality. If every "utopian" aspect of the scenario works out, you get to explore the universe. You haven't seen a septillionth of what is out there. One slower-than-light spaceship with a self-sustaining environment onboard, and your immortalness, and you can explore indefinitely. Boredom could be solved in any number of ways, including VR or stasis between destinations.

      Wishful thinking to the extreme. Will 1,000 years probably provide us to technology to do what you speak? Yes. Will the "Utopian" aspects work out? No.

      It's far more likely that I'm an immortal slave no longer allowed to see the Sun in a form of debt prison at 18,000 ft under the ground. In order to get to the ground that the transport lands on that takes you to the Universe Explorer, I would need social status changed from "slave" to "human". How much money does it cost? Does everybody get the ride on the Universe Explorer?

      The real journey is the one in which we develop those "Utopian" aspects of ourselves, something wholly missing from us now.

      I wouldn't even mind living as an immortal hobo for a protracted period of time, with even worse circumstances than the minimum wage job you outlined. If it comes down to protracted war instead of utopia, I guess I'll have fun participating in that until I get blown up or diseased. If child soldiers can have fun doing it, so shall I.

      Exactly. We both see as the curse it most likely is. You still fear death, so you will do everything to survive. Completely normal actually. I've become so disillusioned with life, that infinite amounts of it are a pure curse. I'm unwilling to become an animal to survive in the horrid future you describe. The need for society to just "put me down" would become inevitable. I don't wish for such a curse, and will choose the quiet dignity of simply fading away back into star dust.

      Since you clearly disagree with immortality, and others will too, I have no objection to your suicide or refusal of anti-aging treatment in these scenarios. Note that medically assisted suicide becomes legal in California on June 9th (probably relevant to a number of old Californian SoylentNews readers). You go on your "adventure", I'll go on mine.

      God be with you on your journey.

      --
      Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
      • (Score: 2) by boltronics on Thursday March 17 2016, @02:32AM

        by boltronics (580) on Thursday March 17 2016, @02:32AM (#319405) Homepage Journal

        God be with you on your journey.

        I'm willing to bet religion (or lack thereof) is a key component in how you (and a lot of other people) feel about this. You probably feel that "we were designed to live this way" and maybe "there is something waiting for me in the afterlife anyway".

        I personally would be happy to not have to age, but not so much for exploration. There's simply not enough time in one lifetime to learn and create all the things I'd like to be able to, which seems to be an ever growing list.

        --
        It's GNU/Linux dammit!
        • (Score: 2) by edIII on Thursday March 17 2016, @05:15AM

          by edIII (791) on Thursday March 17 2016, @05:15AM (#319448)

          You probably feel that "we were designed to live this way" and maybe "there is something waiting for me in the afterlife anyway".

          Yes, I do. I very much do. The human experience just isn't one an ego can live with indefinitely. You've heard the saying that the worst thing in life is not getting what you want, and the 2nd worst thing is to get what you want? That's what ego is. Never satisfied with the now. Always keeping emotional attachments to the past, and then creating more about the future. How does an ego deal with the infinite?

          Yeah, we probably don't need to worry about that till somebody is a 1,000 years old, but can we be sure? Humanity has never been tested like that. The oldest person might have lived to 130 for all we now, and they did it with a terribly aged body at the end. I don't think any of us can actually say what it will be like to be in a 25 year old body, but then also have lived for 500 years. In movies and literature we often see these beings as either extremely beneficent and wise, or driven mad over time.

          Spiritually, I already live convinced that I'm an immortal being. The catch is, as another poster put it, is that I will do it in an infinite number of lives that have no knowledge of each other, moderated by a "spiritual hypervisor". In other words, reincarnation. I do believe that I'm afforded the opportunity at death to go exploring the universe. Not only that, I get to do it not as EdIII, not as a human being, but something else without the same limitations as a human body.

          Maybe there is something in the afterlife? Quite possibly. Will it be better than here? That's probably a certainty. I partly suspect that where we are now, is actually hell. All of us are in hell, and the purpose of life here is to understand the true value of heaven. It may be possible that we already in the afterlife being punished, as I find it sincerely hard to not view my life here as a punishment for some mortal sin elsewhere. I honestly wonder sometimes how I offended God so fucking much he sent me here.

          In any case, heaven on Earth is actually possible, since we all have free will. We can all decide to be better to each other and live in Utopia. It's an actual decision we can make. Now we'll argue in a billion practicalities that it cannot be made, but logically, the decision is still there! The fact we consistently refuse to make the decision on a group basis is the primary reason I just want to die. I personally refuse to spend eternity with the rest of you. On the whole, you all fucking suck something awful, which makes the individual joy I get in dealing with a few people at a time all that much more sad and painful.

          There's simply not enough time in one lifetime to learn and create all the things I'd like to be able to, which seems to be an ever growing list.

          You're right. It's a pretty shitty fucking deal we all get right now. Not enough life, and surrounded by hell on Earth. However, the hell part isn't changing at all. By all rights, the whole planet is probably dead in a few hundred years. That's overblown of course, with the truth being that human civilization will simply end. Good riddance.

          While I do believe in the afterlife, that doesn't affect my decision regarding immortality. I *might* choose to be an immortal you know. Just for a couple hundred thousand years, or till I get bored being EdIII. My issue, and why I won't choose immortality, is that it doesn't come with the option to be free from the rest of you. Freedom for me literally only comes with death.

          We all might be immortal one day, but I won't be among you. I know the world will not get better in my lifetime, but only worse. Only if I had hope for our future, would I have the impetus to live longer than normal. Human civilization qualifies to have the cord pulled.

          As it stands now, death is the greatest mercy we're afforded, and I for one am very grateful to the Universe that I get to look forward to it.

          --
          Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
          • (Score: 2) by boltronics on Thursday March 17 2016, @05:52AM

            by boltronics (580) on Thursday March 17 2016, @05:52AM (#319451) Homepage Journal

            Thanks for sharing. In many ways, I can understand that view point.

            The "never satisfied with the now" bit can be a positive and a negative though. If the goal is to look inwards and improve ourselves, or to improve the world in selfless ways, it would be a very positive thing. Unfortunately I think it's more common to see people unsatisfied with social status and personal assets, which simply isn't sustainable and needs to change if there is to be any hope for humanity.

            In some cases, life is Hell. Usually, it is caused as a result of someone with power and influence over you. If we have such people live forever with the same power and influence, things would probably only get worse than they are today. You would also have problems such as never-ending copyright - if the author desired that.

            I guess ultimately I'd rather Death be on my terms, if and when I decide there isn't any point to living any more, and nothing more to be done. I can't imagine ever wanting to die today, but I reserve the right to change my view at some point. Uploading my mind to a computer would presumably facilitate such a goal.

            --
            It's GNU/Linux dammit!
          • (Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday March 17 2016, @03:19PM

            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday March 17 2016, @03:19PM (#319569) Journal

            Maybe there is something in the afterlife? Quite possibly. Will it be better than here? That's probably a certainty. I partly suspect that where we are now, is actually hell. All of us are in hell, and the purpose of life here is to understand the true value of heaven. It may be possible that we already in the afterlife being punished, as I find it sincerely hard to not view my life here as a punishment for some mortal sin elsewhere. I honestly wonder sometimes how I offended God so fucking much he sent me here.

            Not much of a punishment, is it? Even if I were to buy into your mental outlook, the answer is obvious. God made something imperfect. So things will be imperfect. Not a point to getting worked up over it.

            Further, I think imperfection would be baked in to anything God created, else he would be copying himself which would be impossible to do in a reality where only one perfect being can exist.

      • (Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday March 17 2016, @02:58PM

        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday March 17 2016, @02:58PM (#319565) Journal

        What's wrong with the termination of any semblance of self? Is the ego even designed or suitable for immortality? That's really a philosophical discussion as I truly see myself as an immortal being already. Just one with an infinite number of faces, over a spiraling space-time, that all happened in a single moment :) This one little ego speaking with your one little ego isn't that big of deal in the face of the infinite existence out there. I'm more than EdIII, which is just a pseudonym anyways, that is also more than himself too. My "adventure" with death, isn't. I never said I believed in death as oblivion.

        I deem it wrong. And if ego is not "suitable" for immortality, then I'll have plenty of time to find what is, or alternately, find ways to end my existence. And your beliefs in death don't mean a thing to me.

  • (Score: 2) by bitstream on Wednesday March 16 2016, @08:20PM

    by bitstream (6144) on Wednesday March 16 2016, @08:20PM (#319199) Journal

    If you have time on your side then you also have way more opportunities to figure out how to break free.

    • (Score: 2) by edIII on Wednesday March 16 2016, @10:53PM

      by edIII (791) on Wednesday March 16 2016, @10:53PM (#319289)

      If you have time on your side then you also have way more opportunities to figure out how to break free.

      The solution to be free is simple. Kill the 1%. However, I don't want to do that. Immortality in a possible Utopia just isn't worth the karmic debt I believe I would face. Deep down, I don't believe in immortality anyways. I might best push off the fires of hell for a million years, maybe a billion if really lucky, but the odds are simply not in my favor for infinite existence. Infinite existence still seems like a curse, even in a Utopia, too.

      We don't need immortality, or we already have it. Immortality is the fact we are a species in this together. I see our immortality as a function of our gestalt being; All humans together make an immortal entity. Our children are our immortality, and the solution to be free and immortal is simply loving each other more. As new age and sappy as that might sound, it's still nonetheless true.

      Breaking free? You can't. This planet is effectively getting smaller all the time, and the influence and power of the 1% ever increasing. Distance between somebody and the 1% is directly proportional to their effective levels of freedom. There are simply some human beings that are intolerable to live with, and only be removing your interaction do you succeed in finding peace.

      --
      Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
      • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 17 2016, @12:03AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 17 2016, @12:03AM (#319343)

        Immortality is the fact we are a species in this together.

        That's worthless to me as an individual, so who cares.

        All humans together make an immortal entity.

        The human race is far from immortal.

        Our children are our immortality

        They're certainly not *my* immortality, unless I can take over their bodies somehow. Not that I would want to do that anyway. Also, if you were not referring to children making the species "immortal", plenty of people don't have or want children.

        As new age and sappy as that might sound, it's still nonetheless true.

        No, it's just new age nonsense. Love won't make me literally immortal. Besides, I thought you didn't want to be immortal?

        Distance between somebody and the 1% is directly proportional to their effective levels of freedom.

        That doesn't mean it will continue. A few hundred years ago, we had slavery in the US, but it ended eventually. also, women couldn't vote, we had Jim Crow laws, and all sorts of other nonsense that we overcame. Improvement isn't impossible.

        and only be removing your interaction do you succeed in finding peace.

        You can't decide what does and doesn't help others find peace.

        • (Score: 2) by edIII on Thursday March 17 2016, @05:47AM

          by edIII (791) on Thursday March 17 2016, @05:47AM (#319450)

          That's worthless to me as an individual, so who cares.

          You're the person that needs to die then. The reason this planet sucks so fucking much, is that you in particular are on it. Along with millions of worthless sacks of shit who think like you do. Flamebait? Hardly. Deathbait, and I'm serious.

          If you refuse to see yourself as part of a greater whole, then you're the problem. It's your narcisissm that refuses to see our human civilization as a group effort, and therefore, IT ISN'T.

          So just fucking die sooner please so the rest of that are still alive do live life committed to the rest of us, and that we really are all in this together. I for one, sure as fuck, don't want to be on the same planet as an asshole like yourself. After all, the only thing that matters is what affects you positively as an individual correct?

          The human race is far from immortal.

          No, that's an assumption. The SUN is far from immortal and will one day die in a spectacular fashion. Humanity may well have moved to Sirius if we can manage it. About the only concession you will get out of me is the heat death of the universe, and even then, that just means that NOTHING is immortal.

          There's some semantics for you :)

          They're certainly not *my* immortality, unless I can take over their bodies somehow. Not that I would want to do that anyway. Also, if you were not referring to children making the species "immortal", plenty of people don't have or want children.

          We've already stipulated that other people's well being means precisely dick to you. I'm not surprised that don't care about the children or our collective progeny.

          No, it's just new age nonsense. Love won't make me literally immortal. Besides, I thought you didn't want to be immortal?

          No, you're just being a fucking dick with poor reading comprehension. I never said love would make us immortal, only that love could provide the foundation for it. Something I don't feel the need to explain further, since you made your spectacular level of narcissism quite clear. What could you understand about love, if you can't understand we are in all in this together?

          Through treating each other better, you know with love, that will literally put you in Heaven on Earth, depending on your level of commitment. Which I realize for you, that everyone else being happy, prosperous, and immortal might not be your heaven.

          Your snark aside, I stated that I was ALREADY immortal. What I also stated was that I was completely unwilling to enjoy biological immortality in my current human body while also being forced to enjoy it alongside the rest of you. Slight difference there.

          My immortality comes in many ways, all of them I'm sure new age nonsense to you. However, what's not new age nonsense, is the idea we live forever through our children. That's an idea you will find throughout literature throughout history. It's something we've long decided to tell ourselves to deal with death. So you can call me a new age moron if I talk about certain kinds of reincarnation and whatnot, but otherwise? Dude, these are ancient fucking concepts.

          That doesn't mean it will continue. A few hundred years ago, we had slavery in the US, but it ended eventually. also, women couldn't vote, we had Jim Crow laws, and all sorts of other nonsense that we overcame. Improvement isn't impossible.

          You're correct. Things will improve for the 1% because only their interests are represented. Also, the slavery deal? You conveniently forget it took civil war for it to end. In other words, a lot of 1%'ers will die before improvement comes.

          Improvement is not possible now, because that's how much the 1% improved it for themselves. This system we have now is terminal, and cannot be changed from the outside. It can only die and be replaced with a newer or modified system. That always occurs through bloodshed. So don't begrudge me my biological death, when to enjoy immortality it requires me to kill quite a number of people before I can spend my life in peace with the rest of you. If you actually converted me over to your side, I would just start killing people in a very discriminating and quiet manner. Why not? I'm immortal and the only person that matters is me. Therefore, for my convenience, I will kill a great many of you. Thankfully, I do believe otherwise, which is why I don't have a problem dying. It's ok to die.

          You can't decide what does and doesn't help others find peace.

          The 1% are laughing their asses off at that statement. Yeah, they can, and often do, decide what can and can't help others find peace. Even literally. Much of the 1% has been involved with wars of conquest. I'm pretty sure they've been doing a brisk business in fucking up other's peace for quite some time now.

          In other words, ask a Syrian if he feels others cannot influence his sense of peace in the world.

          P.S - Please remember that part about dying sooner than the rest of us. I have no animosity towards you (truly), but we are all much better off in your kind just dies in a fire. It's because I know that probably won't happen, that I'm content and grateful I get to die and get away from you guaranteed. I have no interests in eternity with beings that will only live for themselves.

          • (Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday March 17 2016, @03:54PM

            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday March 17 2016, @03:54PM (#319581) Journal

            You're the person that needs to die then. The reason this planet sucks so fucking much, is that you in particular are on it. Along with millions of worthless sacks of shit who think like you do. Flamebait? Hardly. Deathbait, and I'm serious.

            If you refuse to see yourself as part of a greater whole, then you're the problem. It's your narcisissm that refuses to see our human civilization as a group effort, and therefore, IT ISN'T.

            So just fucking die sooner please so the rest of that are still alive do live life committed to the rest of us, and that we really are all in this together. I for one, sure as fuck, don't want to be on the same planet as an asshole like yourself. After all, the only thing that matters is what affects you positively as an individual correct?

            Why should I listen to someone with such a poisonous outlook on life? First, you rant about killing the "1%" and now, someone has disagreed with you and should die. There is an obvious solution here.

            Change your beliefs, bleed yourself of this poison. If I want to kick around for 100,000 years and you don't, it's no matter to either of us. If I'm not into continuing the homo sapiens thing, what is it to you? If you believe in an afterlife and I don't, so what? My flaws are not so dire that you should be so concerned about them as to want them stamped out forever.

            The Hell within him, for within him Hell
            He brings, and round about him, nor from Hell
            One step no more then from himself can fly

  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Grishnakh on Wednesday March 16 2016, @09:02PM

    by Grishnakh (2831) on Wednesday March 16 2016, @09:02PM (#319221)

    I'm not normally much of an optimist, but the idea with biological immortality is that you'd have a lot more time (hopefully) to improve the dystopia, or at least work your way to living in Elysium. Just for starters, think about the magic of compound interest: save up money long enough in an interest-bearing account and eventually you'll be rich. Yeah, it sucks having to spend a century living in squalor, but if you aren't aging, then as long as you survive that maybe you can get to a better place and enjoy life. Someone who's mortal, living in some 3rd-world hellhole like Syria, with a life expectancy of 50 years or so has no such hope.

    Now, as for the dying part, biological immortality doesn't mean you won't die. It just means you won't age. Step out in front of a speeding bus and you'll still be dead. So you could still die at 30 if you're unlucky or do something stupid. Or you might live to 900 and then a piano falls on your head. So I have idea what you're talking about when you talk about the risks of fighting: if you're immortal, you have a practically infinite lifespan, so if you get yourself killed in a war, you're losing potentially thousands of years of enjoyable life, whereas today if you're 50 and you get killed in combat, you probably only had 2-4 decades of life left (and a good chunk of that carried a high risk of dementia and/or feebleness and other age-related conditions which make life miserable). No one is talking about being invincible, we're talking about biological immortality, which is something entirely possible according to our understanding of physics and science, whereas invincibility is not and is something out of a Superman comic book.

    The best question you could ask people is if they wish to be immortal, but *exactly* as they are now.

    That's a pointless and stupid hypothetical question. Everything changes; no one's life stays the same. The poor sop with a non-union job, if he lives long enough, can get an education and a better job, "marry up", start a commune, who knows; there's an infinite number of ways he could improve his lifestyle, but many of them require time, and having both time (from no longer aging) and youth (by being able to reverse the aging process and return us to having 25-year-old bodies) would open up all kinds of opportunities. Of course, with everyone having access to this technology, that means being young and pretty would no longer be such a valuable asset, but it wouldn't hurt, and it'd keep our society from expending so many resources on age-related problems: diseases, nursing homes, etc., plus we'd have an ever-expanding economy with the death rate falling so much, as long as people didn't stop having kids altogether (not likely). We might have some resource problems because of the expanding population, but we'd also be able to work on things like building better and more liveable megacities, building orbital habitats like Elysium, etc. There's really plenty of room for all of us if we can figure out how to manage land better and grow food more efficiently (like with vertical farming, or perhaps with farms in orbital stations).

    Of course, humans being what they are, there's always the chance that our immortal future will look like the movie "Dredd". But if you look at human society globally over the past millennia, our standard of living is much better now than it ever has been, on average. Yes, much of the world still lives in grinding poverty, but a good chunk enjoys a nice life in developed nations; 1000 years ago, or even 500 years ago, this wasn't the case: a few nobles had a decent life as long as they didn't get an infection or something, and everyone else suffered miserably. Now, much of the population of any given western nation has a more luxurious life than King Henry VIII (who lived with a horrible and painful leg infection for a long time until it eventually killed him). Better technology only promises to improve this.

    • (Score: 2) by edIII on Thursday March 17 2016, @12:12AM

      by edIII (791) on Thursday March 17 2016, @12:12AM (#319347)

      I'm not normally much of an optimist, but the idea with biological immortality is that you'd have a lot more time (hopefully) to improve the dystopia, or at least work your way to living in Elysium.

      So the trick to having freedom is to become one of the oppressors? I don't want to live in Elysium. I want Elysium to *not exist at all*, or more specifically, for Elysium to exist *for all equally*.

      Improve the Dystopia? Unfortunately, that only occurs by killing the 1%, or erasing their death lock on political capture. My bet is that the two options will have to become one and the same. Meaning, the 1% will not give up their power and control without death first.

      Now, as for the dying part, biological immortality doesn't mean you won't die. It just means you won't age. Step out in front of a speeding bus and you'll still be dead. So you could still die at 30 if you're unlucky or do something stupid. Or you might live to 900 and then a piano falls on your head. So I have idea what you're talking about when you talk about the risks of fighting: if you're immortal, you have a practically infinite lifespan, so if you get yourself killed in a war, you're losing potentially thousands of years of enjoyable life, whereas today if you're 50 and you get killed in combat, you probably only had 2-4 decades of life left (and a good chunk of that carried a high risk of dementia and/or feebleness and other age-related conditions which make life miserable). No one is talking about being invincible, we're talking about biological immortality, which is something entirely possible according to our understanding of physics and science, whereas invincibility is not and is something out of a Superman comic book.

      Stipulated. There are many forms of immortality, and they may influence how we feel about death and risk taking differently.

      That's a pointless and stupid hypothetical question. Everything changes; no one's life stays the same. The poor sop with a non-union job, if he lives long enough, can get an education and a better job, "marry up", start a commune, who knows; there's an infinite number of ways he could improve his lifestyle, but many of them require time, and having both time (from no longer aging) and youth (by being able to reverse the aging process and return us to having 25-year-old bodies) would open up all kinds of opportunities.

      Uhh, what about the shut-in? The mentally ill? The people literally trapped in their own minds? There are some physical/mental use cases where you would need to address healing before you could address immortality. I'm one of them. Until I can live in a body that isn't racked with pain and disease, I'm not choosing immortality.

      I'm not choosing immortality anyways, because there are *not* an infinite numbers of ways I can improve my lifestyle. You're forgetting about all the other people here that wish for me to *not* have that lifestyle. Again, you propose that I can "beat them by joining them". Which again, I will point out my refusal to accept membership into the oppressors. I cannot live out an infinite existence in high standards of living, when I know that in order to attain that standard of living, another immortal being lives in squalor for centuries. It is enough that I must suffer the knowledge of how horribly millions upon millions suffer in this world just so that I can enjoy being a slave in America. If I actually were a member of the 1%, I would most likely want immortality as well. Better than roasting in hell.

      What, did he pay his dues or something? In order to live in Elysium, serve 1,000 years a slave?

      We might have some resource problems because of the expanding population, but we'd also be able to work on things like building better and more liveable megacities, building orbital habitats like Elysium, etc. There's really plenty of room for all of us if we can figure out how to manage land better and grow food more efficiently (like with vertical farming, or perhaps with farms in orbital stations).

      Irrelevant minutiae. What needs to be done is get rid of the 1% which uses engineered inefficiency and political and regulatory capture to ensure that 99% of the wealth is in the hands of 60 people. Not 6,000. Not 60,000, but 60 out of over 300 million people have 99% of the wealth. I think I identified a resource problem ;)

      Of course, humans being what they are, there's always the chance that our immortal future will look like the movie "Dredd". But if you look at human society globally over the past millennia, our standard of living is much better now than it ever has been, on average. Yes, much of the world still lives in grinding poverty, but a good chunk enjoys a nice life in developed nations; 1000 years ago, or even 500 years ago, this wasn't the case: a few nobles had a decent life as long as they didn't get an infection or something, and everyone else suffered miserably. Now, much of the population of any given western nation has a more luxurious life than King Henry VIII (who lived with a horrible and painful leg infection for a long time until it eventually killed him). Better technology only promises to improve this.

      Our immediate future is starting to look like the movie "Dredd". We're already under mass surveillance with much of our civil rights disappearing. Cops are *already* murdering us in the street as de facto "Street Judges". We *already* have the 1% living high above us separated from the filth at ground level.

      Better technology only promises to improve this? Bullshit.

      It will improve it like Cable TV was supposed to improve television by getting rid of commercials. Totally co-opted by marketers and slimy MBAs to just make more money instead.

      It will improve like our health care right? The currently wholly unaffordable health care. The health care that most go without. In the country where hundreds of people died last year because they couldn't see a dentist.

      Only one thing continues to "improve" on this planet. The wealth of the 1%. All you've basically argued is that I should give immortality a chance by giving the system a chance to work. If only I worked the system huh?

      I don't think so. The system can go fuck itself. I'll take death, because you can't fool me that the other option is actually cake. It isn't cake, but indefinite indentured servitude to the 1%. No thank you, death instead, I need the check at my table please........

      • (Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Thursday March 17 2016, @02:43PM

        by Grishnakh (2831) on Thursday March 17 2016, @02:43PM (#319560)

        Oh, good grief, this is just plain stupid.

        I don't want to live in Elysium. I want Elysium to *not exist at all*,

        I'm using the term "Elysium" simply to refer to orbital habitats. That should have been plainly obvious.

        Until I can live in a body that isn't racked with pain and disease, I'm not choosing immortality.

        I'm sorry if this is terribly rude, but this is a really stupid comment. You really think that when we figure out how to reverse the aging process and return people to 25-year-old bodies, that we won't also figure out how to deal with simple diseases? Holy crap, talk about missing the forest for the trees.

        You're forgetting about all the other people here that wish for me to *not* have that lifestyle.

        What is this, some kind of conspiracy theory crap about how a bunch of people are out to get you?

        It will improve like our health care right? The currently wholly unaffordable health care. The health care that most go without. In the country where hundreds of people died last year because they couldn't see a dentist.
        Only one thing continues to "improve" on this planet.

        Well if you leave the US borders sometime, you'd see that healthcare systems actually work pretty well in other nations, despite your rantings about "the 1%". They also don't have the level of income inequality the US does.

        Maybe you should stop assuming that the US == the whole human race.

        • (Score: 2) by edIII on Thursday March 17 2016, @09:51PM

          by edIII (791) on Thursday March 17 2016, @09:51PM (#319770)

          I'm using the term "Elysium" simply to refer to orbital habitats. That should have been plainly obvious.

          Not in the context of our conversation it isn't. We're specifically speaking about income inequality, and you bring up fancy orbital homes I might aspire towards living in one day. Why should I assume Elysium just means "orbital habitat", and not "orbital habitat for the rich" given our context?

          I disagree. That wasn't obvious at all, especially with you referencing something explicitly from a Dystopian movie that has all the elements that we're speaking about. It's in fact the very worst example of what we're speaking about.

          Kind of strange you expected me to get just orbital habitat and none of the other quite pertinent references....

          I'm sorry if this is terribly rude, but this is a really stupid comment. You really think that when we figure out how to reverse the aging process and return people to 25-year-old bodies, that we won't also figure out how to deal with simple diseases? Holy crap, talk about missing the forest for the trees.

          Ohhh, so it's free? We get that "single-payer" medical system that Bernie is talking about the same time? I don't give a fuck what we've figured out. It doesn't apply to me, since I can't afford it. Go try selling your idea of medical paradise to a 3rd world child living in garbage.

          I could only obtain immortality by also obtaining massive debt, and therefore indentured servitude. Unless immortality also comes with a heaping helping of maturity, compassion, and togetherness, the chances of the average person obtaining immortality for any purposes beyond obtaining cattle for the now permanent economic meat grinder are about zero.

          What is this, some kind of conspiracy theory crap about how a bunch of people are out to get you?

          Conspiracy Theory? Theory? Really? Theory?

          The 1% are not a theory, and economic injustice combined with massive income inequality isn't something that just happened. It took a long time, with a lot of corrupt politicians, and a lot of corrupt laws. Likewise, it wasn't just one incident of government malfeasance and betrayal, but lists of them.

          Citizens United is not a conspiracy theory. It's a conspiracy. Big difference. Yes, the people at the top of that conspiracy are wholly uninterested in any kind of equality with me whatsoever. They don't wish for to have any political equality, evidenced by their corrupt lobbyists and political capture. Likewise, they don't wish for any kind of economic equality, as that might free me from being a continually producing resource for them. Like the pregnant lady who can't get more than 29 hours because the CEO of Staples doesn't want to pay the 4.5 million for the neonatal(?) care program that would take effect at 30 hours. He meanwhile is making 55 million himself over 4 years. It's not a conspiracy theory that he was out get to the pregnant lady. He DID get the pregnant lady, since she had insufficient medical coverage, and basic material deprivation. Tell me, that wasn't by design, and your a fool. He admitted as much, and his actions against her were a political commentary/stunt so he could oppose Obamacare.

          Greed and narcissism really aren't theories, but sad facts of our country, and indeed world. You can deny the massive income inequality, injustice, and complete lack of representation in government for the "average joe", but the boiling-over anger in my country would show you're full of it. I can spend all day, every day, this entire year, just posting articles to you speaking of the levels of government malfeasance and corruption. If it's a conspiracy theory, it's a really fucking popular one with articles about it every single day.

          Theory my butt. The 1% are narcissistic uncaring assholes that are constantly trying to increase income inequality in whatever ways possible. Once is happenstance, Twice is coincidence, but Three times is enemy action.

          Well if you leave the US borders sometime, you'd see that healthcare systems actually work pretty well in other nations, despite your rantings about "the 1%". They also don't have the level of income inequality the US does.

          Maybe you should stop assuming that the US == the whole human race.

          You may have a point here. The medical is better nearly everywhere else on the planet than it is in my country. We're a superpower that is simultaneously near the bottom of the "third world countries" WRT to our levels of medical care, and pretty much levels of humanity as well. Other countries may care more about their citizens. That is possible.

          • (Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Friday March 18 2016, @03:43PM

            by Grishnakh (2831) on Friday March 18 2016, @03:43PM (#320013)

            Look, I'm sorry if the Elysium comment was confusing. I only used it because it's about the only popular sci-fi example of orbital habitats I could think of, and I believe you had already mentioned it by name before so I reused it.

            As for the immortality stuff, I really don't know what you're ranting about there. I was talking about things from a technical perspective. If we have the technology to stop the aging process and even reverse it (meaning a very high understanding of the mechanics of aging and all associated bodily processes and the ability to change and fine-tune these things), then we are automatically going to also have the ability to eliminate pretty much all diseases that are related: Parkinson's, cancer, etc. To say otherwise is like saying someone can figure out how to build a start-of-the-2016-art car and not figure out how to make run-flat tires.

            For Bernie's single-payer system, they already have this system in a bunch of developed nations like Canada and UK. The US is not really a developed nation; it only pretends to be. And as long as people don't vote for Bernie, they're going to continue to not have the kind of healthcare systems that people in developed nations enjoy. None of the other political candidates will work to give you such a system. Hillary has specifically said she has no intentions of working towards single-payer; she's too interested in helping her buddies in the insurance companies.

            As for the 1%, they're not "out to get you". Yes, they work in their own self-interest and are greedy, but that doesn't mean they are trying to hurt you personally. Generally, they're a bunch of twats who believe in trickle-down economics and think that'll actually make everyone better off even though it's been proven not to work.

            And no, medical care is not better everywhere else in the world. In developed nations, yes, in places like sub-Saharan Africa, the middle east, Latin America, etc., definitely not.

  • (Score: 2) by maxwell demon on Wednesday March 16 2016, @09:58PM

    by maxwell demon (1608) on Wednesday March 16 2016, @09:58PM (#319256) Journal

    Don't worry, immortality will be for the 1% only, anyway. So no, you'll not be immortal on a minimum wage job. You'll not be able to afford immortality with a minimum wage job.

    --
    The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 16 2016, @10:57PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 16 2016, @10:57PM (#319294)

      In the US, student loans are a debt that cannot be discharged in bankruptcy. Once a like legal status is brought about for immortality costs, everyone will be able to finance it. It'll just take forever to pay off.

      • (Score: 2) by edIII on Wednesday March 16 2016, @11:50PM

        by edIII (791) on Wednesday March 16 2016, @11:50PM (#319336)

        Exactly. Immortality..... but as a slave.

        --
        Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.