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from the in-accord-to-legend-and-insight-clarity-will-amaze-with-an-odyssey-from-city-to-ridgeline-and-jazz dept.
Honda revealed the new Clarity Fuel Cell at last year's Tokyo Motor Show and began sales in Japan on March 10, delivering the very first one to the Japanese Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry later that month. It plans to launch the model in select UK, Denmark and California markets later this year. The car's 174-hp motor is capable of pushing it up to around 466 miles (750 km) on the Japanese JC08 drive cycle (estimated 300-mile+ US EPA rating) per hydrogen fill-up thanks to its new power-dense fuel cell stack. Refueling takes three to five minutes, according to Honda.
While intriguing from a technological standpoint, fuel cell cars are still a young technology with lack of an accompanying hydrogen fueling infrastructure, so they're not exactly a large-volume cash cow for auto manufacturers. To give the Clarity more legs, Honda will launch the electric and plug-in hybrid versions in the US in 2017. The expansion will also give Honda more flexibility in responding to any changes in the market or infrastructure, the automaker explains.
Honda has had EV versions of some of its models for a few years now, but they haven't been widely available. "Select markets" makes it sound like that's not going to change with these models.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Gaaark on Friday April 22 2016, @10:53PM
So what year do we get to see the REAL data, not the made up stuff.
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 2) by TheLink on Saturday April 23 2016, @07:42AM
(Score: 2) by frojack on Friday April 22 2016, @11:16PM
"Select markets" makes it sound like that's not going to change with these models.
There are a few hydrogen fuel stations scattered around California. http://cafcp.org/stationmap [cafcp.org] and a few more across the us.
http://www.netinform.net/h2/H2Stations/Default.aspx [netinform.net] Many more are planned, and some are left over from older projects (usually mass transit systems - some defunct).
Honda itself doesn't seem interested in assisting this build-out.
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by tftp on Saturday April 23 2016, @12:33AM
Out of several marked stations in SF Bay Area only two are operating. The rest are in permanent state of development - I checked a year ago, and not much changed since then.
Hydrogen is not cheap, and it is derived in part from fossil fuels (natural gas.) It can be made from renewable sources, but at the moment those methods are more expensive. Hydrogen does not offer significant savings over the cost of gasoline. If you add the fact that you need to drive a larger distance to refuel, hydrogen makes no sense unless you live within a couple of miles from the filling station. The cost of the FCEV tilts the balance even further. http://cafcp.org [cafcp.org] writes:
Hydrogen fuel prices range from $12.85 to more than $16 per kilogram (kg), but the most common price is $13.99 per kg (equivalent on a price per energy basis to $5.60 per gallon of gasoline), which translates to an operating cost of $0.21 per mile. Automakers are including three years of hydrogen fuel with their initial sales and lease offerings, which will shield early market adopters from this initially high fuel price.
While future price is uncertain, NREL estimates that hydrogen fuel prices may fall to the $10 to $8 per kg range in the 2020 to 2025 period. A kilogram of hydrogen has about the same energy content as a gallon of gasoline. FCEVs are about twice as efficient as gasoline-powered vehicles: an FCEV travels about twice as far as a conventional vehicle given the same amount of fuel energy. At $3.50 per gallon gasoline, a conventional vehicle costs about $0.13 per mile to operate, while an FCEV using $8 per kg hydrogen fuel would cost about $0.12 per mile.
Fuel cell cars are, IMO, a temporary solution. Once the batteries drop in price and/or grow in capacity, there will be no need to jump through the hoops of making H(2) with electricity, transporting it to the filling station, going there to fill up, using a complex fuel cell to store it, and then generating electricity for the motors, if you can charge the solid state battery anywhere, from the grid, and then draw current from it whenever you want. This is why FCEVs are going nowhere. Car makers are in a holding pattern, waiting for a better battery, Meanwhile their engineers are learning how to make EVs using the fuel cell as a cumbersome equivalent of a battery.
(Score: 1) by JBanister on Sunday April 24 2016, @02:31AM
People keep asking, "What's that solar going to do for you when the sun goes down?" Hydrogen is an easy answer. Yes, overcoming the bonding energy in water is inefficient at low temperatures unless you're gardening biohydrogen, but once I own the extra capacity to compensate, I'm done. The process is very easy to put into effect. I like those sunflower shaped catalytic hydrogen generators they built at Sandia. The same fuel cell stack that drives my car can light my house, and I seldom need to buy energy from anyone at all. Hydrogen fuel cells are an ideal companion for decentralized independent power. Market them as part of a personal system of total energy independence and FCVs will sell like guns.
(Score: 1) by tftp on Sunday April 24 2016, @04:02AM
People keep asking, "What's that solar going to do for you when the sun goes down?" Hydrogen is an easy answer.
Well, Tesla's Powerwall [wikipedia.org] is even an easier answer. The H(2) equivalent has to be at least as good as the battery.
Note that not all people are intent on "gardening" their own energy, just as not too many people bother to grow their own vegetables or keep chickens. We were like that a few thousand years ago, but then came specialization, and efficiency of our labor increased. Personally, I cannot afford keeping a house. I can afford to buy a house, just as many can, but I have neither the time nor the desire to fix pipes, roof, floor, walls, cables, and everything else that inevitably fails. Right now I'm paying for convenience - and efficiency - of having it done for me. Same with energy - some people may choose to have a solar panel (especially if it is free or affordable,) or an H(2) generator, but many other will instead elect to pay for what they need, because they are themselves paid handsomely for what they provide to others. This will become even more apparent with the shift to arcologies - which is already underway under the name "urbanization." Energy collection devices in collectively owned buildings will have to be also collectively owned; and if you rent someone else's building, then you have no say at all what solar collectors are used, if any.
(Score: 1) by JBanister on Monday April 25 2016, @12:43AM
The 3.3kw, 6.4kwh powerwall is even easier, so long as your needs are within those bounds. At 746 watts per horsepower, a 3.3 kw battery provides the same output as a 4.4 hp generator. It's my consideration that a vehicle fuel cell stack would probably be capable of a somewhat larger output. While initial powerwalls are one per customer, (and Tesla discontinued the larger ones) you could make non-Tesla battery arrangements if lots of batteries are of interest to you. You might consider using the much larger output of the batteries in a Tesla vehicle, but the problem is, they can't be charging at home and used for your driving at the same time. There is a little bit of advantage for fuel cells in that the fuel is separate from the cell. I do agree with you that the "just pay for it" mindset of people who prefer to live urban differs from that of people who want personal energy independence, and my description of a fuel cell vehicle as part of a personal energy independence arrangement wouldn't apply to them. While urban people make up by far the largest percentage of the population, FCVs are few enough now that I think benefit could currently be gained from marketing them to less urban consumers.
(Score: 1) by tftp on Monday April 25 2016, @01:10AM
FCVs are few enough now that I think benefit could currently be gained from marketing them to less urban consumers.
As it stands, the industry has barely moved on building H(2) fueling stations in cities - where they can depend upon reliable supply of large volume, large wallet customers from public transit, for example. There is snowball's chance in hell that any H(2) station ever shows up in rural areas. I understand that a *true* energy-independent customer does not need a filling station... but I don't think anyone will buy a car that is only chargeable at home, and only when all the conditions are right. But... hurricanes and tornadoes happen, fires, floods, whatever. What then, if you cannot travel a reasonable distance (say, 10-20 miles) to the nearest H(2) filling station? Your FCEV is a brick now, when you need it most. A vehicle must be driveable not just around your house, but also across the country. So far only the ICE (gas, diesel) supports that. Tesla's superchargers *may* provide a route or two if you are extremely meticulous with charging and drive like a church lady.
Indeed, some rural people are interested in energy independence... but in part it is driven by the poor service. There are lots even nearby, a mile away from a densely populated area, that have no electric power. Admittedly, they are a few hundred feet up the hill, but if you want energy there, you have to pay the utility to lay the cable for you, or install the poles. At that cost the idea of a windmill or a solar panel with batteries does not look outlandish anymore. When I owned a house I had 6 kW of grid-tied solar panels there, and it was pretty nice, as I was not paying for energy. But today, if I were to relive that experience, I would rather pay the man. Solar still costs too much, compared to what it saves.
(Score: 1) by WalksOnDirt on Friday April 22 2016, @11:35PM
I don't care much about the fuel cell offering. Few people do.
The PHEV might be interesting as a Volt competitor. The big question is the electric performance, as in 0-60 time without the engine.
There is little information about the all electric version. How is it going to be better than the Bolt? I doubt it will have the range, whatever else it has.
(Score: -1, Redundant) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 23 2016, @02:29AM
Without... what?
Do you mean, in free fall?
I don't know... the car has a bolt but the bolt doesn't have a clue?
(Score: 2) by MostCynical on Saturday April 23 2016, @01:11AM
http://www.bbcamerica.com/shows/top-gear/video-extras/season-12/episode-07-theyre-electric/james-tests-honda-clarity [bbcamerica.com]
If the cost of 100% elctric vehicles continues to fall, hydrogen may be the Beta tape of the 21st century, which is a bit of a shame, as I like internal combustion engines, for all their dirty, polluting ways.
"I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 23 2016, @04:55AM
If honda would provide me a small device that hooks up to the hydrogen-hybrid car, the garden hose and a wall-socket i would buy it
(and the motorcycle version) tomorrow.
(Score: 1) by JBanister on Sunday April 24 2016, @02:48AM
Wall socket electricity from a petroleum fired power plant to generate hydrogen from water at home is less economically efficient than just stripping the hydrogen from the petroleum that might have been used to generate the electricity. It's the "hydro" in hydrocarbons. Making hydrogen at home makes more sense if you get the power directly from solar. You don't even need electricity: https://share.sandia.gov/news/resources/news_releases/hydrogen_catalyst/ [sandia.gov]