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Late Wednesday, Brown signed the bill raising the age for tobacco use, including vaping, to 21, the Associated Press reports. He also vetoed a bill that would have asked voters to divert tobacco taxes to pay for the health expenses of those with tobacco-related ailments, according to the Los Angeles Times.
Source: NPR
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California's Legal Smoking Age Set to Rise to 21
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The last time I saw him he was walking down Lover's Lane holding his own hand.
-- Fred Allen
(Score: 5, Insightful) by edIII on Thursday May 05 2016, @10:29PM
Oh fucking please.
1) IT STILL HAS FUCKING NICOTINE. Meaning, that if you think you can smoke that around me differently than a cigarette, the ensuing scuffle, cops, and court cases will educate you otherwise. I do not accept nicotine being smoked around me, or the insane bullshit excuses of, "Its vaping man, its' not the same thing man, its just vaping...blah blah blah". If it has nicotine in it, and you want to blow that smoke around me, prepare for battle. You still need to go find a place that will not bother anyone, at least 100 feet from a public entrance, and of course, you can't do it in restaurants or public spaces.
2) IT STILL FUCKING STINKS. Currently, I'm not allowed to burn incense anywhere I damn well please. Likewise, I can't just place an oil essence burner anywhere I want. Moreover, we still give shit to people that stink so bad in public that nobody else can find peace.
3) IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ME TELLING YOU WHAT TO DO, OR MORAL CRUSADING. It's super fucking simple. Keep that shit away from me, and there is no justifiable civil rights being violated because we won't let you subject us to that in public spaces. There are plenty of examples of this that we group together in common sense and good manners.
vaping is *exactly* the same as smoking, from the perspective of people that have to put up with that bullshit. Just because you altered the technology a little bit on how you smoke, doesn't mean you mitigated anything about the smell or transfer of carcinogens/chemicals.
If you wish to kill yourself in such ways, you're perfectly free to do so as long as you don't interfere with me in public. You have no moral or ethical justifications whatsoever that allow you to force me to put up with it. I don't give two shits about your protestations either. Vapers can take their shit and shove it up their ass. It certainly couldn't hurt the smell.
Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
(Score: 4, Informative) by djh2400 on Thursday May 05 2016, @11:23PM
Here is the relevant segment from the 2nd paragraph which I intend to point out:
As I understand, there are still plenty of unknowns related to vaping, but these results are not particularly reassuring to those who would otherwise, as you say, have to put up with them. I doubt first-hand vapers would absorb all of the chemicals causing this effect. Therefore, by extension, it's reasonable to assume that second-hand "vape" would negatively affect others, though most likely to a smaller extent.
(Score: 2) by dyingtolive on Thursday May 05 2016, @11:32PM
To be fair, it's generally much more pleasant to smell as I'm walking by the 30 feet outside the "designating smoking area" (that no one actually stands in) at work as opposed to regular cigarette smoke.
I don't disagree with the rest of it, though. No one wants to smell your stinky ashtray ass after you get back in from sucking down ANYTHING pungent every 15 minutes, and say that myself being a smoker. If you can't manage your addiction for at least eight hours before needing to sustain it, you should probably work on that.
Don't blame me, I voted for moose wang!
(Score: 3, Insightful) by edIII on Friday May 06 2016, @12:38AM
The smell may be slightly better, but the chemical and biological dangers are the same. In fact, they're far worse. The complete morons that vapers are, allows them to ignore the fact that the flavored nicotine bottle they're loading from indicates levels much higher than a single cig. So that innocuous smell is accompanied by more nicotine than a chain smoker may get in a day. I'm not interested in being in a de facto room with dozens of chain smokers. I had this argument many times with a cousin that refused to stop doing it, even in the house. Constant yelling at him to get him to stop.
I just can't stand them acting as if it's different, and somehow more acceptable. Own it, accept it, and deal with the limitations of your vice. Myself, I smoke weed. A lot. Out in public too. In front of cops. Don't care, as I have a medical need not met by the United States' wonderful and comprehensive health care for its citizens.
That being said, I find places that are remote where other people aren't going to be. I like to make sure there is a lot of wind (dissipation), and that it won't stink up an area for others. If I'm walking down a neighborhood I check for open windows, children playing, how hot is it, etc. I sincerely don't want to put anyone out, or impose upon them in anyway, because I wish to enjoy marijuana. Additionally, second hand highs are a real thing. I got somebody high one time just from a puff that went past their face, and they weren't really prepared to be high, or able to deal with it very well. So I'm careful for good reason.
I would only ask that the nicotine/vape smokers be as considerate of others around them. Strangely, I'm reminded of Jim Varney (Earnest P. Worrel) who was an avid chain smoker. Yet, he was extremely careful to make sure a child never saw him do it, or the smoke ever got around anyone not wanting it.
This vaping bullshit is being used an excuse to just basically be an inconsiderate asshole to others. By all appearances, it's not smoking, so it's perfectly fine is the popular refrain. The bitching that they're "oppressed" just set me off, as if it's a Constitutional right to expose others to dangerous or unknown chemicals with no regard for the safety or well being of others.
Sorry, but fuck vapers. Fuck them in the donkey asshole :) (line from a movie)
Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 06 2016, @08:40AM
>Myself, I smoke weed
Jesus Christ, and you're bitching about the smell of cigarettes. What the fuck? Get off your high horse, man. Do you have any idea how much weed stinks, and how you affect other people with your weed smoke? You're just as bad as the nicotine junkies, you just burn different stuff.
(Score: 2) by edIII on Friday May 06 2016, @07:09PM
Irrelevant. When I smoke weed I'm very far away from everyone else. It's even windy most of the time. If necessary, I take a shower after smoking, but that rarely is unless I've "hot boxed" it in a room or car. Again, that room or car is my property, so I'm removing myself from everyone else. Anytime there is somebody else to be affected, the most that they're upset about is the lack of passing the joint/bong.
You act as if I would smoke weed in a movie theater, a plane, or a restaurant. Never in a million years, especially since weed can be consumed. However, some vapers are insistent that they can do just that.
I'm not on a high horse, as I'm extremely careful about my use, and extremely aware and considerate of those around me when I do so. I don't allow the smoke to affect other people, so you're statement is irrelevant and baseless.
Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
(Score: 3, Informative) by mcgrew on Friday May 06 2016, @06:06PM
The smell may be slightly better, but the chemical and biological dangers are the same.
Incorrect. The only thing the same is nicotine, which isn't what causes the cancer, COPD, or heart disease associated with smoking. Safe? Doubtful, but I'd bet money they're nowhere near as dangerous as cigarettes. And there is a slight smell, but nothing like cigarette smoke. I can smell a cigarette a block away outside, e-cig only in an enclosed room. And the smoke is much more obnoxious.
It is different. "Acceptable" is a personal preference. If you use the things and ar around someone who doesn't like them, use patches or lozenges.
mcgrewbooks.com mcgrew.info nooze.org
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 06 2016, @01:55AM
As long as the rules are the same when you over-do-it with cologne, have Mexican food night, or don't have the exhaust from your car going directly to the cabin.
IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ME TELLING YOU WHAT TO DO, OR MORAL CRUSADING.
Nope, it's just you being sanctimonious prick in the name of muh health.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by edIII on Friday May 06 2016, @02:33AM
Nope, you stupid fuck. It's about me protecting muh health, not yur health. You have the right to royally fuck over your health, but you don't have the right to involve me in it. Likewise, we all retain the right to make your health care more expensive for you.... because it will be. Nothing strange there. You smoke, you get diseases expensive to treat and become a huge drain on society for no other reason than you wanted to suck down toxins deliberately. Before you start, yes that applies to obese people paying extra for health care too, and I've already been paying that price. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. You suffer the consequences of your choices, not us.
No matter what you say, or what you do, or whatever bullshit arguments you construct.... you simply cannot ever create any justification that allows you smoke around me. Period. End of Story. Likewise, you can construct no arguments that show vaping is different from cigarettes. In every meaningful way, they're the same. Deal with it.
If you want to do so, do it in your home. Or preferably miles away from everyone else. Just don't expect any support or sympathy from me when you complain you're being oppressed simply because you can't force us to stick around your stinky disgusting ass, and you're precluded from many activities the same way cigarette smokers are.
Oh, but they are. Common sense rules in society tell you to not over-do-it with cologne, and I've seen plenty of people called out on it. Mexican food night? Are you bringing up flatulence? There's whole sections of calculus regarding farts and their rules of conduct. As for food smells, well, that's food. Your attachment to smells is highly disingenuous, as you strongly imply those are the only considerations. That completely ignores the toxic chemicals and the precautionary principle.
Car exhaust going directly into your cabin just violates all kinds of health codes I'm sure, including the laws and regulations governing suicide. I see your point, the chemicals coming from vaping and smoking aren't all the different. Just a matter of concentrations and exposure. In that light, I'm sure it would be unwise or dangerous to light up 1000 cigs in your house. If you need us to tell you these things, we won't have to worry about you much longer. Darwinism will take care of it.
Try again.
The burden is on you, dude. Pony up the science showing it's completely harmless, and in fact, just smells that need to be dealt with. EVEN THEN, you will face the uphill argument that you can bring devices in public spaces (especially restaurants, planes, and movie theaters) that introduce unwanted and unexpected smells.
Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 06 2016, @03:34AM
Likewise, we all retain the right to make your health care more expensive for you.... because it will be. Nothing strange there. You smoke, you get diseases expensive to treat and become a huge drain on society for no other reason than you wanted to suck down toxins deliberately. Before you start, yes that applies to obese people paying extra for health care too, and I've already been paying that price. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. You suffer the consequences of your choices, not us.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/05/health/05iht-obese.1.9748884.html?_r=0 [nytimes.com]
Moneyshot: It costs more to care for healthy people who live years longer, according to a Dutch study that counters the common perception that preventing obesity would save governments millions of dollars.
So actually smokers and the obese are subsidizing your healthcare.
Ready to pay more to make up the difference?
But I do like how you wrap yourself in the majority to justify being a sanctimonious prick.
Moving the goalposts, similar to "shifting sands" and also known as raising the bar, is an informal fallacy in which evidence presented in response to a specific claim is dismissed and some other (often greater) evidence is demanded. That is, after an attempt has been made to score a goal, the goalposts are moved to exclude the attempt.[3] The problem with changing the rules of the game is that the meaning of the end result is changed, too.[4]
Special pleading is a form of fallacious argument that involves an attempt to cite something as an exception to a generally accepted rule, principle, etc. without justifying the exception
Cherry picking (suppressed evidence, incomplete evidence) – act of pointing at individual cases or data that seem to confirm a particular position, while ignoring a significant portion of related cases or data that may contradict that position.
Overwhelming exception – an accurate generalization that comes with qualifications that eliminate so many cases that what remains is much less impressive than the initial statement might have led one to assume.
Nope, the burden of proof is on you to justify why smoking is a special case amongst all other possible health risks encountered in the public sphere.
(Score: 2) by edIII on Friday May 06 2016, @07:59AM
It's actually an argument about who is, and who is not, the majority. In any case, you've assumed wrong about me. I've been in the obese category for most of my life, and paid the differences in medical insurance (when I had it) and certainly suffer the financial burdens associated with it.
So been there done that, and I disagree with the study you posted. You've basically stated that obese people are cheaper because they die sooner. What kind of sick fuck are you? Healthy long living people are the problem? By that logic every cig you suck down is doing a public service, which is ludicrous on its face.
You can keep saying it, but that doesn't make it true. Your the inconsiderate asshole who smokes, and therefore deliberately exposes others to toxins and chemicals. Which apparently is fine, as long as you get your enjoyment right? I disagree on me being sanctimonious, but it is inarguable that you're the inconsiderate asshole.
The only goal post I could have moved is with the precautionary principle, which just means you're a fucking moron. That principle is not intrinsically moving any goal post anywhere, and I dismissed no evidence whatsoever. Would you like to provide some evidence before I can dismiss it and ask for more?
Pray tell, what exception did I overlook for what rule? It sounds like you're saying that all the evidence against smoking we have now, is the evidence of my special pleading by creating an exception to some rule. Again, what's the exception to what rule that I overlooked? I genuinely want to know, as I would be surprised at any evidence you can provide as to the harmlessness of nicotine. Good luck getting that evidence, buddy. No, vaping is not an exception to the generally accepted principle that nicotine is bad, and no I don't need to justify it. It's a fact, that vaping releases nicotine and a litany of other chemical compounds.
Strange, I thought I was very comprehensive and thorough as to why you're the inconsiderate asshole. If I'm guilty, it was unintentional. What evidence did I overlook? Moreover, I requested additional evidence meaning it can't be cherry picking. Even so, what have I overlooked as the positive benefits of vaping, both for the user and bystanders? What did I fail to consider in the gestalt about vaping, nicotine consumption, and public enjoyment thereof?
Yeah, I guess when all is said and done it really is reduced to the unimpressive facts of you just being an inconsiderate asshole that believes you have the right to subject others to toxic chemicals and unwanted noxious smells in public. I didn't generalize shit. Vaping is perfectly equivalent with smoking, in so far as that the chemicals involved are still present, or in worse quantities.
Yeah, no it isn't. You obviously don't understand the precautionary principle, and worship at the alter that is the Kehoe Paradigm. The burden is light indeed, as the work has already been performed for the past five fucking decades that we've understood that smoking is harmful to your health.
Google it if you want the proof. More than enough provided.
If you want to argue that restrictions on smoking in public are not properly justified, well..... lol! Okay man, I guess we've never justified the restrictions huh? Back to the drawing board (sarcasm).
Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 06 2016, @02:14PM
Fallacy fallacy
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 06 2016, @09:53AM
2) IT STILL FUCKING STINKS. Currently, I'm not allowed to burn incense anywhere I damn well please.
Then they should ban people from stinking because they don't bathe enough or they use too much perfume or they produce too many smelly farts or they have very bad breath.
I don't smoke or vape and I'd say the above stuff actually bothers me more than most vape "flavours" (what term do they use?) I've encountered.
(Score: 2) by edIII on Friday May 06 2016, @07:13PM
People's odor is secondary to the introduction of unknown/unproven chemicals (precautionary principle) and the known dangers of nicotine.
Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
(Score: 2) by LoRdTAW on Friday May 06 2016, @12:11PM
I think you posted before having your morning coffee.
NOT ALWAYS! Some people vape non nicotine based fluids. Also... Sit down down, tough guy.
Stinks? What vaping have you smelled? The few guys at work who vape have fluids which smell like a candy factory or bakery. Nothing unpleasant about that. I'm beginning to think you have either no idea what vaping is, or you just want to rail on something for no reason other than "It's different so I don't like it." Drink your coffee tough guy.
I agree, I don't want to be right next to some person exhaling big clouds of water vapor out of their bodies. Kinda gross. But, it far, far more pleasant than actual cigarette smoke which really does stink, sticks to everything and is almost guaranteed to cause health issues. The people I know who vape are all former cigarette smokers. My only issue is the vaping is probably worse as they can play with the nicotine dosages and heavy pulls will introduce far more nicotine than a cigarette can. So instead of becoming less dependant, they are becoming more dependant.
(Score: 2) by edIII on Friday May 06 2016, @07:29PM
Most of the time it is with nicotine, and I can't tell when it isn't. Am I supposed to ask every fucking asshole doing it in a theater or restaurant for their bottle to read the ingredients? Will there be posted signs now in certain places indicating what vaping fluids are acceptable?
No, I will not sit down. If you do it in a theater, restaurant, or plane, you've made a captured audience out of me. I don't like that. It's not right that their movie ticket is more important than my movie ticket. So, yes, I will go nuts and involve the cops if required as they only way they will continue vaping is out of their asshole where I shove their device.
I've unfortunately been subject to it plenty of times from inconsiderate people in public (especially the theater, or restaurants), and yes I find the smell highly unpleasant. It may smell sweet superficially, but the knowledge of the nicotine and chemicals provides the complete absence of joy and peace. I don't want it around me, and there are no justifications that they get to do so.
There you go. We can talk about degrees, but we're still talking about nicotine. Actually, we may not even be talking about that either, but marijuana again. I've tried a couple of vape pens with marijuana, and you wouldn't know until your stoned. I don't want to be stoned unless I'm prepared to be, and I've made arrangements for things to be handled (who's on call).
Even if we come down to just smells, how on earth is that acceptable in a theater? I can ask to remove somebody if they smell too bad, but it's a different level when you turn yourself into a smell factory.
That's my real problem. I will never find it acceptable that it can be done next to people in most public spaces. A park or something is one thing, but all of my problems are in enclosed spaces. If the vapers just stopped in the enclosed spaces everything would probably be better between me and them. Until they do, I'm going to nuclear every single time, and kick ass if required.
Vaping at any level in enclosed public spaces isn't acceptable. If it becomes so, then I will create my own portable incense burners and we can engage in a war of smells. One with no winners.
Yes, and that usage occurs in designated places that don't affect me. I'm not subject to it at my office from anyone else, and there are even laws preventing it.
Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.