SoylentNews is people
SoylentNews
Student developers were polled via 80 spring 2016 hackathons to asses how they feel about their career options. Some of the key finding were:
- 83% of students said they were looking for fulfilling careers, rather than simply for jobs.
- Students plan to stay an average of 2.9 years at their first full-time job.
- Students predict that they'll stay at later jobs for 5 years on average.
- Students expect to earn between $70–150K right out of school.
Details of the Devpost study can be found here.
This discussion has been archived.
No new comments can be posted.
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
Learning French is trivial: the word for horse is cheval, and everything else
follows in the same way.
-- Alan J. Perlis
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 19 2016, @03:22PM
83% of students said they were looking for fulfilling careers, rather than simply for jobs.
Try being an electrician or a plumber. Landscaping? Heck, save up some capital and buy a fishing boat.
Students plan to stay an average of 2.9 years at their first full-time job.
Probably about right if you change careers NOW. Otherwise, you're going to get shitcanned after you've been there about a year.
Students predict that they'll stay at later jobs for 5 years on average.
Again, get a skilled trade.
Students expect to earn between $70–150K right out of school.
Pipefitters, machinists, and plumbers seem to do all right in this income range. Won't happen overnight, say true. But you'll be learning a practical skill that will always be in demand. It can't be off-shored at least. I also guarantee you that you'll be able to live somewhere that $40k right out of school will make you feel pretty well off as a single young man. Plus, unlike software, you can point to what you did at the end of the day and say, "This is what I contributed to make the world a better place today than it was yesterday."
No, you're not going to become a tech billionaire. You're not Zuckerfuck. You're not a special snowflake. You're not your job. You're not how much money you have in the bank. You're not the car you drive. You're not the contents of your wallet. You're not your fucking khakis. You're the all-singing, all-dancing crap of the world.
Get a tangible skill and people will understand why you're needed and valuable. Stay in software and prepare to be a "genius" or "wizard" while nobody quite knows why you're there and why there aren't more cisfemales in your profession and why are you always making everything so technical when the computer on the Enterprise just works?! Why can't it be as easy as Google?! Misogynerd!
(Score: 3, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 19 2016, @03:32PM
Ahh, I see what you're doing here. You're in the tech field and you want to drive the competition out.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 19 2016, @05:00PM
Damn, you caught me!
(Score: 5, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday May 19 2016, @03:35PM
Students are fucking morons, what do you expect? If they knew anything they wouldn't be in school still. They'd be shining up their welding chops so they could rake in $150K/yr while only working about three out of every seven days. Take the quite nice and extremely reliable paycheck instead of trying to play the job lottery, dipshits. It's not random; those jobs are filled by people who are objectively better than you. You're not going to luck into a job that makes you millions, ever.
I blame the parents for telling their kids they are special and can be anything they want. They're not and they can't. Only one out of every thirty thousand or so of them are even as smart as I am and I code under two other guys that regularly make me feel like a dubmass and aren't making insano cash from their mad skillz.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2, Funny) by Runaway1956 on Thursday May 19 2016, @03:56PM
Yeah, someone go ahead and call me the grammar/spelling nazi. I just couldn't resist, LMAO.
I guess that's someone really, really massive doing dubstep? Dubmass.
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday May 20 2016, @12:27AM
Meh, even the truly awesome typo every now and then.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 19 2016, @04:42PM
I was hired right out if college a year ago. Have you considered that since 80% of these students want fulfilling jobs they chose a field they like instead if whatever offered the best money?
Maybe I could earn more as a welder (after apprenticing for jackshit for years), but I don't like welding. I like programing and playing with new tech.
Admittedly their salary expectations are a little high, but I'm still within the lower bound. So it's not unrealistic.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 19 2016, @05:39PM
Admittedly their salary expectations are a little high
A little? You think?
(Score: 2) by maxwell demon on Thursday May 19 2016, @08:13PM
Well, maybe they factored in inflation by the time they'll leave school. ;-)
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 20 2016, @02:31PM
Does it factor what school they are from and where they plan on living? $120-150K seems reasonable for Stanford in Silicone Valley
(Score: 2) by Scruffy Beard 2 on Thursday May 19 2016, @08:10PM
I knew the first dot com bubble was going to burst when I heard people right out of school were demanding desks made out of Lego.
I decided I was still interested in computer science, even though there would be few jobs in the field.
I think my interests have drifted to computer engineering since then though (despite the lack of jobs in the field).
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 19 2016, @08:27PM
Considering that most of them are know-nothing morons, their salary expectations are way too high.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday May 20 2016, @12:33AM
There's no such thing as a fulfilling job. You will always work for an asshole. If you think your job is an exception because your boss isn't an asshole, start polishing your resume up because that company is going under due to poor management. Go for the money so you at least have something to show for it.
Seriously though, fulfilling jobs can only be held by exceptionally well adjusted individuals. And they're extremely rare. It's not the job that makes it fulfilling, it's your attitude.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 3, Funny) by fishybell on Thursday May 19 2016, @03:43PM
Serenity now...serenity now
(Score: 1) by Francis on Thursday May 19 2016, @10:49PM
You shouldn't say that, it's unhealthy. I think "hoochie momma" is a healthier choice.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 19 2016, @04:19PM
Pipefitters, machinists, and plumbers seem to do all right in this income range.
Of course there's that whole apprentice/journeyman period where they're not earning anywhere near that.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by vux984 on Thursday May 19 2016, @05:06PM
Of course there's that whole apprentice/journeyman period where they're not earning anywhere near that.
On the flipside they don't have that whole university period where they are net negative the whole time unless mom and dad are helping them float.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday May 20 2016, @12:25AM
Journeymen make extremely good wages. Even apprentices, who by definition barely know their ass from a hole in the ground, make more than the average schlub their age does. Contractors? They don't necessarily even get wages. They are the ones who pay wages and quite often own the company.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Snotnose on Thursday May 19 2016, @06:43PM
I agree. Looks like the 1%ers are doing their best to import cheap software labor and kick the American workers to the curb.
Another advantage of knowing a skilled trade is you can easily relocate. Everybody needs plumbers and electricians. Try moving to some little town and getting a job as a software architect.
Relationship status: Available for curbside pickup.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 19 2016, @08:23PM
Not even I know why most software developers decided to be software developers, or why they were even allowed to get a degree; they have no aptitude for software development whatsoever. But I guess mediocrity or worse is tolerated at most colleges and universities. How sad.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 20 2016, @02:10AM
because most colleges weed out most of the good programmers by making them take useless math classes that have nothing to do with programming.
hate to break it to academia, but you do not need ANY calculus to be a programmer.
(Score: 2) by Snotnose on Saturday May 21 2016, @02:13AM
Not even I know why most software developers decided to be software developers
In the late 70's I had a serious video game habit and bought a TRS-80 in hopes of saving some money. I quickly learned I'd rather program the thing than play games on it. At the time I was in college for an EE, third semester I changed to a computer science degree. At work my job was to QC boards and fix them as needed. Wrote Space Invaders for our 1553 analyzer, marketing found it and started showing it at trade shows. Helped that the version they grabbed I hadn't yet implemented the aliens shooting at you, but you could shoot them. Engineering found out about it, brought me over.
Ended up with a BS in Math, was an embedded software engineer until a few years ago when I went to work for a startup. They folded, and I learned companies won't interview people in their 50s, let alone hire them. So I "retired" at 52.
FWIW, my weekly budget was $30 for video games. After buying the TRS-80 it went down to maybe $20/week, but my salary bump more than made up for it.
Relationship status: Available for curbside pickup.
(Score: 2) by VLM on Thursday May 19 2016, @11:23PM
I also guarantee you that you'll be able to live somewhere that $40k right out of school will make you feel pretty well off as a single young man.
Its worth quoting wikipedia
The overall median personal income for all individuals over the age of 18 was $24,062
And no small fraction of those poor bastards are trying to raise an entire family, so as a single guy yeah times will be pretty good.
(Score: 2) by q.kontinuum on Friday May 20 2016, @01:26AM
Every individual above 18 usually means mom and dad. So, median family has 48.1k annual income. With 40k raising a family is below median.
Registered IRC nick on chat.soylentnews.org: qkontinuum
(Score: 4, Informative) by PizzaRollPlinkett on Thursday May 19 2016, @04:21PM
What student developers want, and what student developers get, will be two different things. They may find they'll make peanuts working for a contracting company because corporations have outsourced everything and don't hire developers any longer.
(E-mail me if you want a pizza roll!)
(Score: 3, Insightful) by curunir_wolf on Thursday May 19 2016, @05:02PM
If they significantly lower their salary expectations, they may be able to compete with the H-1Bs as long as they're willing to work outrageous hours as a slave to the company. 2.9 years is a little long to do that without burning out or getting shoved out for a cheaper imported contractor, although they might make it in some place with plenty of venture capital coming in.
I am a crackpot
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 19 2016, @07:40PM
There are places without this issue: 3-letter agencies and defense contractors
Pay your bills, stay off the drugs, and you too can have a stable career in the USA.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by TheSouthernDandy on Thursday May 19 2016, @05:18PM
Amen. Same for scientists and engineers--the future is either in contracting, where no one can build up a coherent knowledge base over a career jumping from project to unrelated project, or in academia. Both are low-wage by current standards.
Or, take the risk, start a business, and get some original ideas out into the world...
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 19 2016, @04:39PM
People on this board are saying instead that they should learn a trade.
You know what? We can't all be tradesmen anymore than we can all be computer programmers.
What we have in the US is a *general* lack of jobs that have some security and decent pay. I am all for people doing whatever works for them, but nobody on this website has come up with a real answer.
I agree though that people studying a techie field should be aware of ghe disposable nature of their skills. Hot today, worn-out and kicked-out in 5 years. You end up re-applying for the same job as your younger and cheaper competitors. There is no job security in tech and experience is generally not valued. Hell, ability to speak or write English is barely required. Think of it as a modelling job for ugly people.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by bzipitidoo on Thursday May 19 2016, @05:55PM
On the one hand, the US has an income inequality problem. On the other. the US lifestyle is very costly. There's considerable social pressure and marketing trickery to spend, spend, spend. Marketing is all to happy to tell us there's an expensive solution for our every problem. A typical American house is a horrendous money pit. They seem designed to be 10 times more costly to build and own than necessary, what with things like unnecessarily intricate rooflines, purely for appearances, interior spaces with ledges 15 feet above the floor so one needs a ladder to reach it for cleaning (or hire a cleaning service, ka-ching!), and casually slapping the outdoor A/C unit any old place such as the south or west sides of the house where it is exposed to full sunlight in the afternoon, the peak demand times for A/C. And they have to be big, really big, bigger than the Joneses' house. They could be built to require far less heating, cooling, and maintenance, and without much changing the cost. A real simple change would be not making the house sprawl. Standards have improved over the years, but slowly. Lawn care is another racket. Then there's the car. It costs big time to own, drive, and refuel a car, but our suburban sprawl so is amazingly hostile to any other form of transportation that it is near impossible to live without them.
To pay for all this, may need more than one job. Then, because the adults are all too busy with full time jobs to mind the home and family, may have to pay for maid service, baby sitting or day care service, lawn care service, and so on. It's nuts.
(Score: 2) by GungnirSniper on Thursday May 19 2016, @07:19PM
If we hadn't squandered the peace dividend on adventurism against Saddam's secular Iraq and stopped being World Police we'd have money for improvements at home.
Tips for better submissions to help our site grow. [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 2) by BK on Thursday May 19 2016, @08:50PM
The what? Whatever you think that is, it really is just an illusion and always was.
...but you HAVE heard of me.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 19 2016, @05:55PM
I agree with you, we cannot have 50 million plumbers or welders. And of course these threads always devolve into some sort of philosophical debate about the future, so here we go:
The future with current economic system in tact can only survive with one of two possibilities:
1) We redefine Full time to less hours, and increase OT pay such that you will have to hire more people instead of using OT. This of course can accelerate the jobs leaving the country, so similarly there would have to be a quota on number of employees not in the country.
2) We accept part of our population will never be employed, and go with either a massive basic income, or have some sort of a feudal system where the people working have a bunch of serfs each doing petty work for their lord and master in order to have food and a place to live...
Either way, in the face of eternal surplus will will eventually have to do away with currency, as currency is the greatest invention known to men for distribution of limited resources. When the limit is removed, currency is useless and causes more problems than is worth.
(Score: 2) by Scruffy Beard 2 on Thursday May 19 2016, @07:16PM
Some [soylentnews.org] on this board feel that the best solution to the problem that I know about [soylentnews.org] is "know fallacy" (I think they were mis-using the term in that post).
Sure they won't get $70-150K/year out to school, but they can still put food on the table while looking for their fulling career. I strongly suspect there will still be demand for jobs, because most geeks are not that interested in the business side of things.
The big unknown for basic income for me is how many people will be happy to just game all day instead of doing something (I perceive to be) more useful? I have a feeling people won't be doing "nothing". Doing nothing leads to boredom, which can lead to violence/property destruction.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 19 2016, @07:49PM
It's even uglier than that. You get people living in what amounts to penury, making poor economic choices on top of that, with vast amounts of time on their hands - it breeds a criminal underclass, angry and resentful of people who have more despite punitive taxes paying for the money they're getting for free.
But that's OK. It's still better than the alternative.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 19 2016, @10:40PM
It's a free agent economy and most folks aren't used to that. A substantial portion of everyone's time has to be devoted to skills training, and possibly education (formal or self study) for not only their current gig, not only their next gig, but looking ahead as many as 10-15 years.
Those who don't do that are like the ones who have the opportunity to contribute to a 401K, but don't. Eventually they'll wish they had.
(Score: 2) by snufu on Friday May 20 2016, @02:06AM
Public office?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 24 2016, @06:15AM
Like Ugly Models [ugly.org]?
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Thexalon on Thursday May 19 2016, @04:42PM
I can guarantee you that every prospective employer you talk to will be happy to tell you that you're signing up for a fulfilling career. In the vast majority of cases, they will be lying to you.
Those employers will in fact be delighted by that news, for reasons that will become clear a bit further down. I hope you weren't expecting anything resembling raises or promotion though.
Maybe, if they're lucky.
Entry-level software developers typically take in about half of that, depending on what part of the country you're in. That's why employers would be happy to keep you working at rookie rates for as long as they can get away with.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 1) by Chillgamesh on Thursday May 19 2016, @06:07PM
ehhh, I only went to university of maryland, and from the graduates I knew in my class (2013) we all got jobs making at least 70k a year.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 19 2016, @06:29PM
ehhh, I only went to university of maryland, and from the graduates I knew in my class (2013) we all got jobs making at least 70k a year.
Meaningless without knowing where those jobs are. $70k is good in the Midwest but doesn't mean much on the West Coast.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 19 2016, @08:27PM
FEAR THE TURTLE!
(You bastards. Why did you forsake the ACC? You were a founding member!)
(Score: 2) by turgid on Thursday May 19 2016, @10:16PM
Indeed, and they use this as an excuse to pay you less because "job satisfaction" is part of the compensation package.
Every year, you'll get next to no pay rise and company facilities will gradually be cut as budgets are reduced year on year to make the profits grow.
The training you'll be given will be largely meaningless and the bare minimum to cover legal obligations and to indoctrinate you into the company mind set.
Keep your CV up to date, keep networking and keep looking for the next job. Don't stay in one place longer than three years. You'll become institutionalised and less relevant to the market place.
Save every penny you can.
When you get to a certain level of competence and experience, go contracting for the big bucks. And put away every penny you can.
I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent [wikipedia.org].
(Score: 2) by turgid on Thursday May 19 2016, @10:19PM
And choose your role models carefully - the experienced professionals you're going to emulate.
I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent [wikipedia.org].
(Score: 3, Interesting) by mechanicjay on Thursday May 19 2016, @04:47PM
It also depends on where you are and what program you're coming through. Where I work now, all the CS students either have $100K+ jobs lined before graduation or are going on for their PhD. Where I used to work, only the top 10% of the class were in that boat. Still, It's not an unreasonable expectation for say the top 25% of CS students right now. Even the middling students can do okay for themselves.
Remember, there are certain regional job markets in this area where companies cannot import tech talent fast enough. YMMV.
My VMS box beat up your Windows box.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by CHK6 on Thursday May 19 2016, @05:00PM
If I could do it all over again I would have been a dentist or an orthodontist. Reason is as a developer, IT ops, admin, etc. etc... I find that my competition is far more vast than localized specialized competition to that of dentists. Dentists compete in roughly 50 mile radius of their practice. Where as those in the technology field compete locally and globally for their jobs depending on the company. In the mid-80's all of the adults were telling me "the future is in computers kid." What they didn't know was software and services delivered on/by computers could be shipped around the world at ZERO cost. And then there is the "old-fart" mantra in the space of technology. Instead of seeing experience as an asset in technology jobs, it's seen as outdated skills. Where as something like dentistry you want someone with a ton of experience and seen it all. So not only do we compete globally for jobs we compete across age boundaries too. I've seen the books and for my base salary I make up the cost for 5-7 experienced India workers or 3-4 fresh out of college US/CN workers. Then look at the recruitment sites; many times it's laughable. Either what they want is so specialized on technology that only fortune 100 companies could afford and train on or they are looking for skill sets that are so broad and vast it's impossible to have a cumulative of 40+ years experience.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 19 2016, @05:36PM
Don't forget that dentist offices are usually smaller outfits and the people hiring actually know what they are hiring for. For example, my employer is looking for someone with 5-10 years of experience with Docker. Not even the core devs have that!
(Score: 3, Interesting) by SanityCheck on Thursday May 19 2016, @05:47PM
What a bunch of fuckin retards. I don't know if funny is the appropriate mod :(
Thou I can say sometimes HR will ask me "What type of skills you are looking for" and I'll say things like "A little bit of knowledge in X,Y,Z, good knowledge of A and B" and I can almost see how they translate "little bit of knowledge" to "1-3 years of experience" because they don't know how to write anything else. And I can see how they translate "good knowledge of" to "5-10 years of experience in." They don't realize that if I wanted "5-10 years of experience" I would say to them "5-10 years of experience."
(Score: 2) by JNCF on Thursday May 19 2016, @05:41PM
If I could do it all over again I would have been a dentist or an orthodontist.
It's a shame you weren't birthed by Steve Martin's mother. [youtube.com]
(Score: 2) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Thursday May 19 2016, @06:18PM
experience and age are valued. At least I hope so.
I spent six years trying to find a job as a mobile developer. Got lots of interviews but as soon as they looked at me in person, the interview sounded like they were trying to find reasons not to hire me.
Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 19 2016, @07:28PM
I wish you luck with that. I am going to the middle stack (C#, SQL). A couple of guys I worked with are doing the same as you embedded drivers. They have been looking for 6 months. Where you are at it is probably much easier for that sort of job. Where they are? Not so much and they are unwilling to move.
Have you considered windows drivers? I bet it is finiky enough but with a good amount of computers out there it could be worth doing? Or both?
(Score: 2) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Sunday May 22 2016, @06:30AM
I do not presently have enough expertise for Windows drivers, but I do know there is a huge demand for windows drivers developers.
I'm able to get Mac OS X driver gigs because no one else does them. Or rather, everyone who does, works for Apple.
As for your friends - tell them I did just fine doing embedded work remotely. That's actually quite common, I think maybe more common than remote work for other kinds of coding.
Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 19 2016, @08:53PM
It's a good plan. You're right about experience and age, or at least they won't mind it. (can't get 30 years experience from a 22-year-old)
Factory automation ought to work for you. If you can find a defense contractor that won't expect you to get a clearance, that would be excellent. The innards of machinery ought to work for you.
(Score: 2) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Sunday May 22 2016, @06:33AM
All I was told is that the primary contractor worked for "The Client". The Client wanted "The Boards" from the primary contractor. I did a completely unclassified subcomponent whose mil-spec you can FTP from an Air Force base.
I speculate I know who The Client is. I won't say, because then The Client would have me sent to GitMo.
There's lots of defense industry in the Portland/Vancouver area, for example Sikorsky makes helicopter interiors here. It's just that those folks don't advertise on Craig's List.
Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
(Score: 2) by bitstream on Friday May 20 2016, @12:14AM
If you are so good why don't you start a company and out compete this dead fish just existing because no one has given them real competition?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 20 2016, @02:15AM
Mid-90s, I got the first wiff Machintosh (was never a computer nerd) and realized my degree (graphic design) was about worthless. I could see all print and layout going to computer systems soon enough, so I had spent the last few years learning a dead skill.
Quite right there.
Spent the next ten years rebuild my savings, and armed with a BLS forecast for the next decade, picked a job I could afford the schooling for that still had good prospects: nursing.
When I hear how disconnected new graduates are from reality, and especially with the student debit crisis looming (let's wreck the economy again for your unrealistic expectations) ; I'm in favor of executing them in the street :)
(Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 19 2016, @06:57PM
I remember, back when I was knee-high to a postdoc, why I decided to become a physicist. It's because quantum mechanics eat steak [chemteam.info]!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 20 2016, @08:49AM
For me - I went to a book shop to get a book about being a (w/b)anker and ended up with quantum field theory. I realised then that (w/b)anking was not for me...