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Actor Anton Yelchin was killed in a freak accident this past Sunday. On first reading it sounded like Darwin claimed another dumass. But now information is coming out that the transmission UI may be the culprit.
Other owners have reported rollaways in which the vehicle indicated it had engaged park when it was actually in neutral. One of these reported instances involved a Cherokee that went into a lake, having first rolled over someone's foot and dragged the person into "eight to 10 feet of water
NBC reports that the UI may be at fault, with Chrysler releasing videos on how to properly use the transmission.
I have been driving for over 40 years, starting with a manual transmission and 10 years ago going automatic. The only automatic training I had was the "put it in P when you park, D when you drive, and R when you want to back up".
The videos make it look like operating the transmission was like a modern car stereo. I can change the volume and radio station, but for anything else I need to pull over, press buttons, and read the display to see what's going on.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by MostCynical on Wednesday June 22 2016, @12:08AM
in the UK and Australia, we park and put the car into P, and engange the handbrake.
The pessimists ensure the parking/hand(sometimes foot)brake is engaged and holding the car (foot off the brakes) before engaging "P" on the gearbox.
It seems (Audis and some other cars slipping into Reverse) many USAians don't use the "hand" brake, as it is considered to be only an "emergency" brake. If true, it is not UI that is to blame, but bad training.
On a related note, if people who live in hilly places like San Francisco don't use the hand brake, how do they get the car out of park? The whole weight of the car is loaded on the little locking pawl in the gearbox..
"I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 22 2016, @12:29AM
You press the brake pedal down before you take the car out of park.
(Score: 2) by sjames on Wednesday June 22 2016, @12:49AM
Too late then. You'll have to yank the lever out of park.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 22 2016, @12:31AM
That "little locking pawl" is tougher than you think. Learn 2 physics.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday June 22 2016, @12:59AM
GP didn't suggest any weakness in the parking mechanism. He asked, how do you get the vehicle out of park? I can vouch for the fact that some vehicles are difficult to get out of park, if the weight of the vehicle is resting against that pawl. I'm not a real muscle man, but if I have a difficult time with them, then a small person with little upper body strength probably isn't going to get it.
Hail to the Nibbler in Chief.
(Score: 3, Informative) by frojack on Wednesday June 22 2016, @01:11AM
Just turn the wheel one way or the other and (on a front wheel drive car) that is usually enough to change the weight hanging on the parking pawl making it easier to get out of park.
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 24 2016, @12:56PM
You guys are fucking idiots. We are also taught to always use the handbrake and either leave the car in gear or park if an automatic (not so common around here). The manual for my car says not to rest the car on the trasmission, i.e. don't leave it in park without engaging the handbrake and don't remain stationary for long periods of time with the engine running and the car in drive, either engage park or neutral.
You've got a hundred work arounds for the obvious negative effects of leaving your car in park and not engaging the handbrake (it is difficult to get it into gear) rather than just listening to the sound advice of engaging the handbrake when parking a car.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by sjames on Wednesday June 22 2016, @01:28AM
Easily moving out of park rather than yanking the lever down accompanied by that loud PING is less stressful in any event. Transmission work is notoriously expensive. I think I'll go with setting the brake first and releasing it last.
(Score: 3, Informative) by frojack on Wednesday June 22 2016, @01:08AM
if people who live in hilly places like San Francisco don't use the hand brake,
Who says they don't? Only you apparently.
People who park on hills are very conscious of hand brakes, but also of Curbing you Wheel. I've seen parking enforcement write tickets for failure to curb wheels. (And not only on hills). [sfgate.com]
Hand brakes have a high rate of no-workie. Usually because they freeze in winter, are worn out by drivers failing to disengage them when driving, and cable rust.
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 2) by mendax on Wednesday June 22 2016, @02:10AM
And the cables BREAK, as has happened with me. I had to cancel a job interview because it broke on me as I stopped to pick up some breakfast.
It's really quite a simple choice: Life, Death, or Los Angeles.
(Score: 3, Touché) by frojack on Wednesday June 22 2016, @07:47AM
Why would you need your cable operated parking brake for a job interview? Surly you could park in PARK for just that once?
Your main brakes have all been hydraulic for decades.
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 2) by mendax on Wednesday June 22 2016, @10:07PM
My truck has a stick shift. There is no PARK, and parking it in gear is not a good idea, even in reverse. I did not know where I would be parking or how the lot or street would inclined. Furthermore, I was not certain if the parking brake cable snapped while the brake was engaged or not. Since I was going to be driving 150 miles to the interview, that's a bit far to go riding the parking brake.
It's really quite a simple choice: Life, Death, or Los Angeles.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 22 2016, @02:22AM
I had a lady come in bitching and moaning about her rear brakes smoking right after she had brake work done, turns out she didn't release the parking brake and fried them. Then she said "who the fuck uses a parking brake?" She was an ignorant tweaker. I saw her drive up a curb a few days later thinking it was a driveway to a filling station.
(Score: 2) by rleigh on Wednesday June 22 2016, @10:54PM
I've never encountered people *not* using the parking brake; that's what it's for isn't it? At least in my experience in the UK, it's typical to always engage the parking brake when, well, parking, and to also leave the vehicle in first/reverse (depending upon the direction of the slope) and also angle the wheel into the curb in case both of those fail for some reason. Since manual transmissions are the norm, this seems to be the common thing to do to be sure it can't roll away should there be any failure. Mine hasn't rolled away at least!
(Score: 1) by Francis on Thursday June 23 2016, @05:12AM
Anybody that's taken driver's ed in the US should be doing that same procedure. And IIRC, the driver's test around here asks questions about that as well.
I don't believe that it matters whether or not the car is a manual as the purpose in parking like that is in case something goes wrong and the car starts to move. The wheels get pointed such that the vehicle either rolls into the curb or rolls off the road if there isn't any curb.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Francis on Wednesday June 22 2016, @01:55AM
First off, the term USAian is offensive, the proper term is American.
Secondly, where on earth did you hear that we don't use the parking brake? The whole reason that brake exists is for parking so that you don't place strain on the transmission. In event of brake failure, that parking brake isn't going to do a whole lot if you haven't already brought the car to a relatively slow speed.
I don't believe that anybody that's taken driver's ed considers that to be an emergency brake, it's the parking brake. If you're using it as an emergency brake, then you're pretty much fucked as that thing has far less stopping power than the other brakes do. At least in cars I've driven. You can easily drive away with that thing engaged if you're absent minded whereas you can't drive away with the other brakes engaged.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 22 2016, @02:04AM
> First off, the term USAian is offensive, the proper term is American.
Only to people with sticks up their butts, more than one usually.
> Secondly, where on earth did you hear that we don't use the parking brake?
When I lived in Boston I had an argument with a bunch of *engineers* who thought using the parking brake was dumb because "it will ice up." I couldn't convince them otherwise, even though I had lived through 5 illinois winters without it happening once. So there are definitely people here who don't use it. People who ought to know better.
(Score: 3, Informative) by DECbot on Wednesday June 22 2016, @02:33AM
I've lived in many different geographical areas of the US, and I can attest that the automatic driving flatlanders who've never driven a manual consider it to be an emergency brake. While those who've lived regions with street parking on hills see it as a parking brake. Those who once lived in hilly regions and are now in flat lands or those who once drove a manual and now drive an automatic will consider it a parking brake, but will only engage it when the need is apperent. A level parking lot in Kansas, you can leave your manual in neutral with the brake disengaged and it's not going anywhere (assuming there's no strong wind or pranksters near by), but the real danger is the flat land tourists parking in San Francisco...
NOTE TO SELF: don't by used rental cars from northern California.
cats~$ sudo chown -R us /home/base
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 26 2016, @01:50AM
True.
I'm a flatland 'merican, who has always driven automatics for the past 20 years. I almost never engage the parking brake, and for a period of time, considered it to be extraneous. I now use it when I park on inclines (my driveway has a slight incline), but I hadn't really heard about the curbing your wheels bit in driver's ed or anything. Will have to keep that in mind; I'll probably never need to do it, though.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 22 2016, @04:19AM
> 5 illinois winters
Oh my. That's almost equal to one Boston September.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 22 2016, @06:47AM
Francis has sticks up his butt?
First off, the term USAian is offensive, the proper term is American.
Who knew! Or more importantly, are the ones who knew the ones who put the sticks up his butt? "Only thing worse than Dragons, Americans." (spoke by Gerard Butler's character in the movie "Reign of Fire". So you know it's got to be true.)
(Score: 2) by LoRdTAW on Wednesday June 22 2016, @01:01PM
When I lived in Boston I had an argument with a bunch of *engineers* who thought using the parking brake was dumb because "it will ice up." I couldn't convince them otherwise, even though I had lived through 5 illinois winters without it happening once. So there are definitely people here who don't use it. People who ought to know better.
Holdover from the days of drum brakes.
(Score: 2) by Zinho on Wednesday June 22 2016, @03:09PM
When I lived in Boston I had an argument with a bunch of *engineers* who thought using the parking brake was dumb because "it will ice up."
I'll continue that argument then. I'm an engineer, living south of the 35 degree north latitude, and November thru march I've had to leave the car in gear with parking brake off or wait until my brakes lines thaw before going to work. Not all cars have that problem, but mine did, and I found it just as unexpected as you do.
You will have a hard time convincing people your idea is right about something when their direct, personal experience goes exactly contrary to your idea. You come across sounding like an ivory tower idiot. [xkcd.com]
"Space Exploration is not endless circles in low earth orbit." -Buzz Aldrin
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 22 2016, @03:40PM
You live south of tennessee and you get freezing weather in November?
Sounds like you are a special snowflake. The kind that doesn't melt in 50 degree weather.
(Score: 2) by Zinho on Wednesday June 22 2016, @06:01PM
You live south of tennessee and you get freezing weather in November?
Sounds like you are a special snowflake. The kind that doesn't melt in 50 degree weather.
Yeah, tell that to my car. Brakes locked in the morning, fine by afternoon, only during cold weather. In my region we get ~20 nights below 32F between November and March, so it's not every day this would be a problem. The odds are kinda like, roll a D6: on a 1 your car won't roll in the morning. It's an unpleasant surprise putting the car into gear and feeling the brake still engaged even though I've released the brake lever. Commuting to work in my 12mpg van vs my 50mpg compact adds up fast for gas money, and even one day a week of that got me to change my habits real quick.
"Space Exploration is not endless circles in low earth orbit." -Buzz Aldrin
(Score: 1) by Francis on Thursday June 23 2016, @05:16AM
There's something wrong with your car if that's happening. Around here we'll commonly have weeks and even months of sub-freezing temperatures and I've never had that problem, nor have I heard anybody complaining about that problem.
(Score: 2) by Zinho on Thursday June 23 2016, @04:35PM
There's something wrong with your car if that's happening.
Yep. I even have some idea what it is. I'm sure that when the car was new it didn't do this. Given that the car is 17+ years old, though, and one of a handful of model years from its manufacturer that is known to develop this problem, I'm filing it under the category of "old car quirks". I'm motivated enough to research potential fixes and try them on my own time, but not enough to pay someone to fix it for me. Ultimately, the issue is moot since the car got totaled when an inattentive driver rear ended me at a stop light a few months back. Time will tell whether the same-vintage replacement I bought develops the same problem.
"Shouldn't happen" and "doesn't happen" are two very different things. The best laid plans...
"Space Exploration is not endless circles in low earth orbit." -Buzz Aldrin
(Score: 1) by Francis on Friday June 24 2016, @02:58PM
I know, the only reason I bothered posting at all is that some people from areas where it never gets below freezing might think that it's a good idea not to use the parking brake when they come up north and wind up having their car roll away.
Obviously, the likelihood of that is almost non-existent, but better safe than sorry. We have some pretty freaking steep hills around here, my motorcycle's rear brake isn't sufficient to hold it on some of these hills without also bracing with my foot.
(Score: 2) by LoRdTAW on Wednesday June 22 2016, @04:47PM
I fucked up my post and forgot to put blockquote tags around the original content.
That bit you quoted was not written by me but taken from this post: https://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=14139&cid=363642#commentwrap [soylentnews.org]
My corrected post: https://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=14139&cid=363902#commentwrap [soylentnews.org]
Derp.
(Score: 2) by Zinho on Wednesday June 22 2016, @06:06PM
It's all good, thanks for letting me know it was the AC who said it. I shoulda noticed, my bad.
Looks like the same AC (or another one like him) picked the argument up anyhow, even with my reply being misplaced. :p
"Space Exploration is not endless circles in low earth orbit." -Buzz Aldrin
(Score: 2) by LoRdTAW on Wednesday June 22 2016, @04:43PM
Shit. Forgot the blockquote tags. Corrected post:
Holdover from the days of drum brakes.
(Score: 3, Informative) by darkfeline on Wednesday June 22 2016, @03:05AM
>If you're using it as an emergency brake, then you're pretty much fucked as that thing has far less stopping power than the other brakes do.
That's why it's the emergency brake. If you're going down the highway at 40 MPH and your normal brake dies, you can use the emergency/parking brake to slow down. Better than nothing.
Emergency brake here doesn't mean "Use this when you're going so fast that the normal brake won't slow you down in time." It's more "I'm not in any danger at the moment but I'd really like to be able to stop now that my main brakes are broken."
Join the SDF Public Access UNIX System today!
(Score: 1) by BeaverCleaver on Wednesday June 22 2016, @03:33AM
Back in the early 20th century, brakes were sometimes operated by a cable. These cables could corrode or freeze, which could jam the cable or allow it to snap if put under tension (such as during hard braking!) Hydraulic brakes became the norm because they are are tolerant of faults. If there is a slight leak of hydraulic fluid, the pedal travel may be increased, but the brakes will still work. That increased pedal travel also served to warn the driver of the fault, so they could check their brake system (or pay a mechanic to do so) Hydraulic brakes also became popular because they were relatively easy to power-assist by using engine vacuum. The handbrake remained cable-operated in most vehicles because this is slightly cheaper.
So, in a modern (ie, built in the last 50years!) car, we have reliable, fault-tolerant hydraulic brakes as the "main" braking, and a cable-operated handbrake or "parking brake." It's not an emergency brake, it only works on the back wheels and is much, much less reliable than the main brakes on a car. Especially in an emergency situation: yank hard on the handbrake and twang! The cable snaps and you're still fucked. Or the cable doesn't snap, the back wheels lock up, and your still going to crash, except now you'll also be spinning.
And anecdotally... when I worked as a driver in the Colorado Rockies, we were trained NOT to use the parking brake ever, because the cable could freeze and get jammed on. And since these were rear wheel drive vehicles, it was still only the back wheels that were braked, regardless of whether the transmission was in park or the parking brake set, or both.
I'd like to hear more anecdotes.. are there states (or countries outside the USA) that typically call it an "emergency" brake? It seems like this encourages bad thinking and misunderstanding of how these things actually work.
(Score: 2) by Magic Oddball on Wednesday June 22 2016, @05:58AM
"Emergency brake" is the normal term in at least the North Bay, if not Northern California in general. We're taught to use it as an auxiliary to the main brake & transmission:
Park: foot brake, [P], set emergency brake, release foot, ignition off
Drive: foot brake, ignition, [D], release emergency brake, release foot
The impression I originally had was that the "emergency" aspect would be the transmission failing to hold the car in place. It wouldn't help much in SF's steep hills, but it's expected to work on a driveway or mild hill/slope even if the car is in drive, neutral, or reverse.
(Score: 1) by Francis on Thursday June 23 2016, @05:09AM
You're correct. The "emergency" in terms of emergency brake is in case the transmission fails to hold. Ideally you'll have at least one tire against a chock or a curb as well, but the brake itself is there to take some of the strain off the gearbox and to prevent it from moving backwards.
The whole idea of using it as a replacement for your regular brakes is rather foolish. As anybody who has ever forgotten to take their parking brake off will know, it doesn't take much gas to overcome the parking brake. Not to mention that compared with the regular brakes, there's very little control over it, it's either on or off with little in the middle.
The correct thing to do if your brakes go off while going down, is to use the gear box to engine brake by shifting down one gear at a time until you're going slowly enough to shift into park. You're likely to destroy the transmission, but in this scenario the transmission is less expensive to replace than your life or the car.
And yes, around here we have a few hills like they have in SF and my motorcycle's rear brake isn't enough to hold the bike in place without my foot bracing, so I doubt very much that the parking brake would do any better as they seem to be about the same amount of braking. That's why you always park on hills with a tire against the curb and the wheel turned so that the other tires roll into the curb if the brake and transmission fail to hold.
(Score: 2) by fido_dogstoyevsky on Wednesday June 22 2016, @06:40AM
I'd like to hear more anecdotes.. are there states (or countries outside the USA) that typically call it an "emergency" brake? It seems like this encourages bad thinking and misunderstanding of how these things actually work.
In (at least) my part of Oz, it's called a handbrake or parking brake (if it's foot operated). It's supposed to ALWAYS* be used when parking and (by definition) when doing a handbrake start (manual gearbox thing). Unless the hydraulics get spectacularly incontinent, in which case it's OK to call it an emergency brake.
*Conventional wisdom is to not use the hanbrake in snow but to chock a wheel (or better two) instead.
It's NOT a conspiracy... it's a plot.
(Score: 2) by aristarchus on Wednesday June 22 2016, @08:24AM
Oh My Automotive Engineer!
Back in the early 20th century, brakes were sometimes operated by a cable. These cables could corrode or freeze, which could jam the cable or allow it to snap if put under tension (such as during hard braking!) Hydraulic brakes became the norm because they are are tolerant of faults.
How little distance is necessary for technology to become opaque! In mere months, systems that did not use systemd will be considered to have run on voodoo!
Freezing, jamming, rusting cables were not so much a problem, considering the only other available option was levers, rods, and more levers. Have you ever seen tire brakes on a Conestoga wagon? No, listen carefully now, my dear really young person. Cable actuated brakes (usually drum, but not always) were standard for quite a while. They had difficulties with equality. You had to adjust each wheel's brake to exert the same (or darn close) stopping force as all the other wheels, else you ended up with a vehicle that pulled one way or the other, would lock its rear wheels losing effect, or worse lock it's front wheels, losing steering. And possibly flipping over, catching fire, and falling into a swamp. Hydraulics apply the same force to all slave cylinders, regardless of adjustment.
And now, all this is so obsolete that only Americans could conceivably argue over it. Any modern vehicle has ABS, Automated Braking System, on it, so a computer controls the amount of force applied to any one wheel to make sure none of them are locked up. So what do you do when the electrical systems fries, no ABS, the hydraulic system is hosed, because a hose has blown, and you are left with a bare cable, mechanically connected to a shoe that will only replicate the amount of force your arm can give to it to stop several thousand pound of hurtling steel . .. . . I used to carry an anchor, for situations of extremity.
(Score: 1) by pmontra on Wednesday June 22 2016, @08:32AM
Italy here. We call it handbrake (freno a mano) and we use it as a parking brake all the time. Probably everybody knows that it's a bad thing using it when the car is moving at speed unless you're racing in a rally car :-)
With the exception of the mountains night temperatures in winter don't get lower than -10 C and often not even under the freezing point. I never heard about cables getting stuck because of ice.
I got my driving license too many years ago to remember what instructors recommend.
(Score: 2) by MostCynical on Wednesday June 22 2016, @03:17AM
America: The Americas, also collectively called America,[5][6][7] comprise the totality of North America and South America.[8][9][10] Together they make up the Western Hemisphere[11] and the New World.
North America: 565 million people in 23 independent states,
South America: More than 371,090,000 people in twelve sovereign states – Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Ecuador, Guyana, Paraguay, Peru, Suriname, Uruguay, and Venezuela – and two non-sovereign areas – French Guiana, an overseas department of France, and the Falkland Islands, a British Overseas Territory (though disputed by Argentina). In addition to this, the ABC islands of the Netherlands and Trinidad and Tobago may also be considered part of South America.
It seems only "People who are resident in the United States of America" think "America" means them only.
"I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
(Score: 4, Informative) by Marand on Wednesday June 22 2016, @03:50AM
Since pedantry's your game, try this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_for_United_States_citizens [wikipedia.org]
All forms of English refer to these people as "Americans", a term originally used to differentiate English people of the American colonies from English people in England
In English, "American" is usually used to refer to US citizens. Other languages have their own rules, but we're not using those languages here, so "American" it is. If you absolutely must use something else, there are options available. You could narrow it down to "North American" vs "South American", or even refer to "US citizens". Sure, it's a few more letters, but that's the price one pays for pedantry. You could also just keep using "USAian" and looking silly, since nobody can stop you from saying what you like.
Regardless of what you use, however, you don't get to claim the moral high ground on this when you're deliberately fighting against established, correct English usage in favour of your own made-up words.
(Score: 2) by MostCynical on Wednesday June 22 2016, @04:00AM
My made up word is, however more understandable to a wider audience.
"I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
(Score: 2) by Marand on Wednesday June 22 2016, @04:24AM
No, the established proper noun (American) is going to be understandable to a wider audience. Your made-up word is less ambiguous which is not quite the same as being understandable.
If your argument is that using "American" for US citizens is bad because it's ambiguous, I generally agree, but it's still the proper, established word for US citizens right now, with hundreds of years of history behind it. Making something up doesn't fix that, and if your goal is to avoid ambiguity, there are other ways to do that without making shit up.
(Score: 1) by MostCynical on Wednesday June 22 2016, @04:32AM
I will ensure I do not, in future, use the term - too many people get upset.
"I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
(Score: 2) by Marand on Wednesday June 22 2016, @04:55AM
The use itself* didn't bother me, though I suppose it might bother some, like Francis said. People tend to not like it when someone else decides to rename their group, especially if there's any degree of pride to it, like is often the case with nationality or ethnicity. It might be because, usually when someone arbitrarily renames an established group, there is an intent to insult, like when people call open-source advocates "freetards".
Really, the only reason I joined in was the tone of the comment I replied to, especially the ending of it. It had a "holier than thou" tone despite going against standard, correct usage, so I decided to say something. Nothing personal and definitely no offense taken (nor, I hope, given) on my end :)
* Though I usually see it used as just "USian". Still silly IMO, but chopping off the extra A does make it look less weird.
(Score: 0, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 22 2016, @06:27AM
The problem is that people from the USA have such a bad reputation internationally and such a strong national stereotype that referring to them as from the USA is taken as an insult!
(Score: 2) by isostatic on Wednesday June 22 2016, @08:00AM
Just use the work "Yanks", "Yankees", or "Yankers"
(Score: 2) by Marand on Wednesday June 22 2016, @11:40AM
Of those, I'd say stay away from "Yankees"; it's likely to be misinterpreted as "resident of the northeast US", especially by anyone from the southeastern states. Or maybe interpreted as "fans of the sports team". Either way, not good for clarity.
(Score: 2) by deimtee on Wednesday June 22 2016, @01:22PM
In Oz, they get called Septics. This is short for Septic Tanks, which is rhyming slang for Yanks, which is a contraction of Yankees. So USAian probably isn't that bad. (Although it sounds like they are Bolting.)
Personally I like RAW's term Unistater.
If you cough while drinking cheap red wine it really cleans out your sinuses.
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 22 2016, @07:14AM
There we go again, you USians thinking that you are bigger than the rest of the world. Well, I guess you are if you count by body weight or number of guns, but by number of people you are far from - even if you include the British.
For the rest of the world, calling yourself American doesn't specify whether you are talking North American (e.g. Canada) or South American (e.g. Brazil).
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Wednesday June 22 2016, @01:49PM
This is the first time I'm seem someone silly enough to complain about "USAian", vs. basically any given time somebody uses "American" here, somebody will bitch them out.
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 1) by Francis on Thursday June 23 2016, @05:22AM
People don't usually bother to complain about it, but that's not the same thing as being OK.
In English in the national context, the term American means somebody that's a citizen of the US. In a context where we're talking about everybody in the Americas, you could also refer to them as Americans, but there's very little you can say that genuinely holds for the whole super continent, so it's less likely to be used.
The people bitching about "Americans" being from the US are mostly Spanish speakers and or bigots. I don't personally care about how it is in Spanish, that's not my language, but in English, the term is American, USAian, is basically just a way of expressing bigotry rather than trying to solve a legitimate problem. Americans come from the US of America in the same way that Mexicans come from Mexico and Canadians come from Canada. In retrospect, it probably would have been better to choose another name for the US than the United States of America, but we're not going to change our name just because foreigners are too ignorant to use the correct name.
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Thursday June 23 2016, @01:54PM
USAian is more precise. People can whine about being offended all they want but from a pragmatic perspective this term is more useful.
As a thought experiment, how about we start generically referring to everyone in the U.S. as Republicans? What? We're a republic. There's no ambiguity there at all, and I'm sure nobody would be offended.
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 1) by Francis on Friday June 24 2016, @03:06PM
It's not more precise, there's only one country that's referred to as America. In my entire life, I've never talked about the super continent of America, in English the term that's used is "The Americas" when we're referring to North, South and Central America.
I get that there's a lot of people in Spanish speaking parts of America that are taught that it's one continent called America and we're generally taught that it's two. But, it's really 3 continents as there are 3 plates and at any rate, whether it's two or three continents, it's completely incorrect to say that everybody living on any of those continents is an American as that context rarely, if ever comes up.
Mostly, this is something that a bunch of poorly educated non-native English speakers whines about because they can't fathom the fact that American isn't exactly the same as the Spanish equivalent. The two words are pretty close, but they're apparently not exact cognates and shouldn't be used as such.
All people that use the term "USAian" are doing is expressing their own ignorance and bigotry. The accepted demonym for people that have citizenship in the US is Americans and that's that. And calling us Republicans would have similar issues on top of which there's the political statement because that's also a political party. Not to mention that there's many republics in the world, if people get apoplectic referring to us as Americans, I can only imagine the fits that would ensue from suing the term Republicans to refer to us.
At the end of the day, it's mostly a matter of jealousy and spite that leads people to use the term USAian, not because of clarity. American is perfectly clear as there are no other countries anywhere in the world with America in their official names. The reason for the confusion is poor quality of education in much of the Americas.
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Friday June 24 2016, @03:29PM
And calling us Republicans would have similar issues on top of which there's the political statement because that's also a political party. Not to mention that there's many republics in the world, if people get apoplectic referring to us as Americans, I can only imagine the fits that would ensue from suing the term Republicans to refer to us.
Yes, that was exactly my point, which you apparently are choosing to "miss." I was pointing out how dumb an argument this is.
All people that use the term "USAian" are doing is expressing their own ignorance and bigotry.
At the end of the day, it's mostly a matter of jealousy and spite that leads people to use the term USAian
And now you're pulling out the name-calling. So I'm bigoted against myself? Go jump in a lake.
American is perfectly clear
That we're having this argument to begin with proves you wrong, and calling me ignorant doesn't change that.
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 1) by Mike on Friday June 24 2016, @03:58PM
same way that Mexicans come from Mexico
Actually Mexicans come from the United States of Mexico, which only strengthens your argument. If people want to refer to the continent they should either refer to North or South America, or the Americas if they want to refer to people from two continents. American is a pretty unambiguous term in English by it's very nature and an extremely unambiguous term by common usage.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 22 2016, @05:55PM
The most spoken english in the world is "international english". Try to get used to the thought as it'll only get worse.
(Score: 2) by Marand on Wednesday June 22 2016, @08:32PM
The most spoken english in the world is "international english". Try to get used to the thought as it'll only get worse.
Nice condescending tone you have there, too bad you didn't read the link, which covers that as well:
International speakers of English generally refer to people from the United States as "Americans", while equivalent translations of American are used in many other languages
So, not only is it still the currently correct term in US and international English, it's even used that way in some (but not all) other languages.
Like I said elsewhere, it sucks for ambiguity, but it's the correct use for now. Fight to get mindshare for something better! Language changes that way. Just don't be a condescending prick about it, because while you fight it, you're still technically wrong and need to make allies, not enemies, to win.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 22 2016, @11:10PM
Actually, I'm not particularly vouching for calling Americans USians nor calling it correct. It was more about being provocative (read: an ass) about who "owns" the language, ie. who gets to decide whether it's correct if it becomes popular enough.
(although, where I live, the direct translation of "USian" is associated with things like the Apollo program while "American" is more like, say J.R.Ewing)
However, what's going on is that these little bits are also culture and not everyone is keen about giving theirs up while using another language. Of course, not doing so is considered impolite when you talk to a native speaker but when the language is used to interact with other non-natives, that rule has a lot less weight.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 24 2016, @04:37PM
it sucks for ambiguity, but it's the correct use for now.
I disagree. Let's say American doesn't refer to someone/something from the USA. What does it mean?, does it mean South America?, North America? Central America?, Both continents (shouldn't that be plural)? I'd argue using the term American to refer to continent(s) is far more ambiguous than using the standard English language normalization of United States of America to American. There is no other country that term would apply too. And if you want to apply it a continent, it is more ambiguous.
If you really want an English normalized reference for a country that's actually ambiguous, look up Dominican :)
(Score: 2) by Marand on Saturday June 25 2016, @09:34AM
That's an interesting take on it, though all I meant is that having two very different (one vague, one specific) meanings for the same proper noun sucks for ambiguity in the same way that overloading operators can suck for clarity. Instead of a clear "foo does foo" you have to consider the context, because maybe foo now does bar instead.
I can't be certain since it's just random observation on my part, but it seems like in the case of "America" and "American", the problem is that they're overused for different things, and in the case of the USA, it's used very specifically and people believe it should be more generic. I sort of get it, because if you leave out the US, there's a clear flow of generic to specific. In the hypothetical "American doesn't refer to US citizens" situation, American is clearly general (a person from either continent), and you make it more specific by prepending a modifer like "north" or "south". To get even more specific than that, you choose a word for a country's citizens.
In real usage, this falls apart with the USA because you end up with American -> North American -> American. ...which also adds a point of confusion because if an American is a US citizen, then it would logically follow that a north American is someone from New York and nearby states. So you can have a northern American North American. I guess it makes people feel like the US is monopolising a generic word that is supposed to be intentionally vague.
My take on it is that I don't think it's that big a deal that American means someone from the USA, because it's not that common that one needs to refer to all the people of both North America and South America as a single entity. Sure, it's a bit wonky logically, because American sounds more generic than North American when it's not, but it's already well understood. So fuck it, whatever, it's not like English is the pinnacle of logical language design anywhere else; let it be logically weird here, too. Maybe the desire to make it more logical is why I mostly only see these arguments on sites like SN and Slashdot, where the userbase is inclined toward pedants, programmers, and engineers?
Still, if people want to fight to change that, good for them, as long as they aren't jerks about it. Personally, though, I'd rather see people fighting for things like proper use of "I wish I were...", using ironic in the correct way, or pushing to standardise on the Oxford comma.
(Score: 2) by butthurt on Wednesday June 22 2016, @10:25PM
Wikipedia has a table regarding the English-speaking populations of various countries. It shows the United States as having the greatest population, by far, of people for whom English is their first language. I didn't tot up the figures, but it appears that even the total number of first-language English speakers in the rest of the world is less than the number of such speakers in the United States.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_English-speaking_population [wikipedia.org]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 22 2016, @11:18PM
Most people who speak English don't speak it as their first language. Is there some reason to ignore those people?
(Score: 2) by butthurt on Wednesday June 22 2016, @11:48PM
Yes. I was responding to an assertion about the "most spoken English in the world" which appears to be about the amount of day-to-day usage. I made the assumption that people who speak it as their first language speak it more often.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 22 2016, @06:40PM
It seems only "People who are resident in the United States of America" think "America" means them only.
Yeah which is why "American" is quite a specific and clear term to use for the US people in _practice_ :).
I tend to use US people or similar too but as far as I know the rest of your "Americans" (Brazilians, Argentinians, Chileans, Mexicans, Canadians etc) won't normally refer to themselves as Americans either, nor want to. They have their own much preferred terms for themselves.
Many of them would probably call US people "Americano" too. There's stuff like estadunidense/estadounidenses but in many of their countries even their official government documents may use "Americano" for US citizens.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 24 2016, @05:00PM
It seems only "People who are resident in the United States of America" think "America" means them only.
hmm, well in English, if your referring to the continent, it's either going to be South America, North America, or regionally, Central America. If you are referring to the two continents or the three regions, then 'Americas' is probably the right word.
Of course, if you are referring to a country, the term 'America' really only applies to one. Although my geography isn't all that good, if I'm forgetting about a country like 'Commonwealth of America', 'The Peoples Republic of America', or some such, then indeed 'America' doesn't work to indicate the USA.
(Score: 4, Funny) by mhajicek on Wednesday June 22 2016, @04:04AM
The hand brake is for breaking the rear tires loose so you can make a tight u-turn on a wet or snowy road, or to get into a tighter parking space.
The spacelike surfaces of time foliations can have a cusp at the surface of discontinuity. - P. Hajicek
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 22 2016, @07:07AM
Outside of the US, calling yourself American will be followed by the question "North or South?"
- as in "Canadian or Brazilian", NOT "New York or Texas".
(Score: 1) by Francis on Thursday June 23 2016, @05:26AM
No, it doesn't. I've been to at least a dozen countries and nobody has gotten confused by that. Between the fact that I'm clearly a native English speaker and the fact that American is the typical word for citizens of the United States of America and that America the country is the US and adding an an to the end of a country's name is a common way of forming the demonym of most countries' citizens.
Or in other words, if you've learned to speak English, then you'd have to have worked incredibly hard to maintain that ignorance as all English language courses I've ever seen refer to people from the USA as being Americans.
(Score: 2) by sjames on Wednesday June 22 2016, @07:21AM
I have gotten home using the emergency brake combined with downshifting after the main brake failed. It worked fine. When my brakes failed, it was sudden and complete. Had I only downshifted, I would have rear-ended the car in front of me.
That's a pretty good case for calling it an emergency brake. Since it also helps for parking, it should perhaps be the auxiliary brake.
(Score: 2) by theluggage on Wednesday June 22 2016, @10:33AM
First off, the term USAian is offensive, the proper term is American.
Complaints on a postcard to pedants who think that logic beats usage and complain that the USA is not America. However, that's usually to defend the rest of the Americas after someone has insulted the fine citizens of the USA - so maybe "USAians" is offensive by association.
At least in cars I've driven.
Everybody should be forced to drive a clunker for a few years before graduating to a decent car: it engenders a lack of trust in mechanisms that will serve well for the future. Plus, here in the UK, last time I looked, you can't drive a manual if you passed the test in an automatic - consequence: the vast majority learn to drive manual, and hence habitually use the handbrake. If I parked my first car on anything resembling a hill it was be a case of handbrake, kerb the wheels, engine off with the gearbox in 1st, offer a brief prayer to the automotive gods and (if it was a SF-scale hill) seriously consider a wheel chock or tying it to a tree. (I needed to park it on a hill - how else was I going to get it started again?)
(Score: 2) by bart9h on Wednesday June 22 2016, @01:11PM
First off, the term USAian is offensive, the proper term is American.
As a non USAian american, I find that offensive.
To call the USA "America" is another sign of USAian's arrogance, just as it is calling their national competitions "World Series".
(Score: 2) by mendax on Wednesday June 22 2016, @02:08AM
Indeed, my housemate, who drives a late-model Jeep but not one subject to the recall, NEVER engages the parking brake on his car unless he's parked in the driveway. I'll let him get killed by his Jeep one of the days when he parks in the driveway and forgets to set the brake.
Speaking of the funky Jeep transmissions, his Jeep has a more traditional transmission lever. However, when downshifting or upshifting you have to do some funky stuff with the lever to get it into a lower or higher gear. I think I'll stick with the manual transmission I have in my beat up Ford Ranger. Much simpler in my opinion. There is not much guessing.
It's really quite a simple choice: Life, Death, or Los Angeles.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 22 2016, @01:11PM
I really do wonder how the hell some people manage to do this sort of thing, if I forgot to put my car into Park not only does a warning alarm go off and an alert show on the dashboard if I open the door while it is not in Park but also the car would start moving the second I took my foot of the brake if I tried to climb out. Apparently Toyota thought of this possibility a long time ago (2006 for this car.)
(Score: 2) by fido_dogstoyevsky on Wednesday June 22 2016, @02:34AM
in the UK and Australia, we park and put the car into P, and engage the handbrake.
Unless we drive a Commodore, which no longer has a handbrake - just a switch which probably works OK most of the time (but we no longer have an emergency brake).
I'm almost tempted to write the General a sternly worded piece of customer feedback that they should sack everybody in marketing and have engineers run the company instead. But they're leaving anyway, so it isn't worth the effort.
It's NOT a conspiracy... it's a plot.
(Score: 2) by MostCynical on Wednesday June 22 2016, @03:58AM
No more handbrake turns, then.
Is it a separate servo on the rear brakes, of some form of line-locker on the brake lines?
How does it work on hill-hold - any good?
"I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
(Score: 2) by fido_dogstoyevsky on Wednesday June 22 2016, @06:34AM
No more handbrake turns, then.
I never could do them with RWD.
Is it a separate servo on the rear brakes, of some form of line-locker on the brake lines?
Probably the latter, it wants a foot on the pedal before disengaging. I've been so disgusted I haven't bothered checking. Totally unnecesary piece of dumbing down.
How does it work on hill-hold - any good?
Pretty good when parking. No point in doing handbrake starts in an automatic, though. I avoided the manual because it won't let the engine start without a foot on the clutch and I couldn't stomach being reminded several times a day that, while I may be allowed to buy a manual, I'm actually too stupid to drive one .
It's NOT a conspiracy... it's a plot.
(Score: 2) by MostCynical on Wednesday June 22 2016, @06:57AM
I just had a thought - cars schome when you undo a seatbelt, open a door, leave the keys in the ignition, leave the lights on, don't put the car into park, get too close to something..
Maybe we've rached "peak warning chime", so now they all get ignored.
Didn't know they'd put an interlock on the manual as well.. bad enough putting the "must have foot on brake to start" and must have foot on brake to move gear lever out of park"
"I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
(Score: 2) by isostatic on Wednesday June 22 2016, @06:24AM
I parked on a hill in one of these pieces of crap. Had to take great effort to leave wheels facing in to the wall and the gear in reverse (I was facing downhill) as it was clear the handbrake was untrustworthy.
After a weekend of complaining about what a bad system it was I read about this terrible tragedy. Still something to remember.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 22 2016, @04:17AM
> many USAians don't use the "hand" brake
In cold weather, something Pacificans know not of, the "hand" brake can freeze on, so we rely on transmissions to hold the car in place until we return from purchasing our Crocodile Dundee action figures at the local mall.
(Score: 2) by isostatic on Wednesday June 22 2016, @06:21AM
I rented a mondeo at the weekend. It doesn't have a hand brake. It has a button that if you hold it for a couple of seconds flashes up a light claiming the brake is on.
From what I can tell the purpose is to get a larger cupholder in.
(Score: 2) by LoRdTAW on Wednesday June 22 2016, @12:58PM
Rubbish. One person dies because of a stupid shifter design and it's somehow the fault of not training people to use a handbrake. Never mind the 100+ million poorly trained drivers who somehow manage to survive the daily commute.
(Score: 1, Flamebait) by LoRdTAW on Wednesday June 22 2016, @01:19PM
Shut the fuck up you tea wop piece of shit.