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posted by takyon on Friday July 08 2016, @03:22PM   Printer-friendly
from the "All-lives-matter."-President-Obama dept.

Snipers in Dallas: [5] Cops Dead; [6] More Cops Wounded

The Atlantic reports:

Two gunmen shot eleven police officers in Dallas, Texas [at 8:58 PM July 7], killing at least four of them.

[...] At a Thursday night press conference, Dallas Police Department Chief David Brown said [...] officers had one of the suspects "cornered", but did not offer further details.

"Tonight, it appears that two snipers shot ten police officers from elevated positions during the protest/rally", Brown said in an initial statement. "Three officers are deceased, two are in surgery, and three are in critical condition. An intensive search for suspect is currently underway." The police department later said an eleventh officer had also been injured and a fourth officer had been killed.

[...] The shootings occurred during a protest against police killings earlier this week in Louisiana and Minnesota. Hundreds rallied in downtown Dallas, near the corner of Main Street and Lamar Street. Local news footage captured what sounds like several gunshots being fired, and the crowd scattering.

[...] No motive has yet been established and it's unclear whether the shooting was related to the protest.

The New York Times just broke the story about the latest in the police killings of black men. It seems the tide has been turned. [Five] Dallas police officers were killed tonight at a protest in that city over these shootings.

I am not surprised, nor am I particularly shocked. No doubt there will be more to come on this topic as the evening progresses. Hopefully something good comes out of this, but I am inclined to doubt it.

takyon: Some more details: One suspect was killed by an explosion intentionally caused by a police robot. He reportedly told a negotiator that he was upset about Black Lives Matter, the recent police shootings, and wanted to kill white people, especially police officers. He said he was not affiliated with any groups and acted alone. Other suspects have been arrested, and a "person of interest" (often identified as a suspect by the news media) was arrested early in the night after he was photographed with his unloaded AR-15. He handed his weapon to an officer shortly after the shootings, and later turned himself into the police for questioning.

President Obama spoke about the shootings shortly after arriving in Poland for a NATO conference. In part, he mentioned that, "When people say 'black lives matter,' that doesn't mean blue lives don't matter, it just means all lives matter — but right now the big concern is the fact that the data shows black folks are more vulnerable to these kinds of incidents [...] This isn't a matter of us comparing the value of lives. This is recognizing that there is a particular burden that is being placed on a group of our fellow citizens. And we should care about that. And we can't dismiss it. We can't dismiss it."


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  • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Sunday July 10 2016, @09:31PM

    Do you think we're all that stupid?

    No, only the ones who think they can win an argument by making it about me rather than refuting presented facts.

    --
    My rights don't end where your fear begins.
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    Total Score:   2  
  • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Sunday July 10 2016, @10:59PM

    by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Sunday July 10 2016, @10:59PM (#372874) Journal

    And the FACT is, you're attempting to preload certain ideas into the readers' minds with what you post, and the lack of context around what you post. What you don't say is as important as what you do say.

    Don't try this game with me, Uzzard. I won't let you do this to the others without pointing it out so they can see what you're doing.

    --
    I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 10 2016, @11:24PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 10 2016, @11:24PM (#372888)

      Don't try this game with me, Uzzard. I won't let you do this to the others

      Pfft, as one of we others, I don't need you to be my crusader in shining armor; we're presumed to be adults with minds of our own, thankyouverymuch. The only pointing in your posts as of late pertain to fingers and the postpubescent equivalent of calling someone a big, smelly poo-poo head. [soylentnews.org]

      If you want your ideas to compete in the marketplace of the mind, your stated goal of "not letting Uzzard do this to the others" would have a better chance of succeeding if you would describe why you think his ideas are crap, rather than just slinging crap and building/reinforcing a reputation for yourself as a fact-free crapslinger. You've got facts which back up your opinions? Great! Post those and let the reader make up their own mind.

      • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Sunday July 10 2016, @11:38PM

        by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Sunday July 10 2016, @11:38PM (#372891) Journal

        I already did. Pay attention. The problem in this case is his post which equates being shot by the police with criminality. When called out on this, he disingenuously slimes "ohhhh but I didn't say it's a 1:1 correlation!"

        Yet, with no context, and given some of this site's audience, that was a pure dogwhistle and nothing more. Maybe you didn't notice, Mr. Adult With a Mind of Your Own, but this place is swimming in self-proclaimed "neo-reactionaries." You may be powerful enough not to be swayed, but the unwary are vulnerable to having their subconscious manipulated; most people do not have what I am assuming is your well-maintained mental firewall. For those people, it is helpful to have a loudly opposing viewpoint which specifically points out the sneaky psy-ops being engaged in here. Congratulations on being a paragon of mental and ideological integrity; most people are not, and they outnumber you.

        --
        I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11 2016, @02:58AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11 2016, @02:58AM (#372938)

          The problem in this case is his post which equates being shot by the police with criminality. When called out on this, he disingenuously slimes "ohhhh but I didn't say it's a 1:1 correlation!"

          Go back and read again the post you're complaining about [soylentnews.org]. What your quote above claims is false. Buzzard drew a correlation between criminality and being shot by police, and in the next phrase of the same post noted that there are exceptions. I'm likely more in agreement with you than Buzzard on the matter of abhorrent police conduct (tho for me, it's largely due to the understanding that the overwhelmingly vast majority of laws being enforced by police are illegal laws). Yet by making false claims and slinging copious insults, you come across as a hysterical screaming harpy and are not likely to be nearly as effective as you apparently think you are.

          The patronizing tone you take in regards to other SN readers in defense of your crap-slinging ad hominem attacks is also tremendously off-putting.

          Pay attention

          Words to live by. Have you tried it yourself?

          • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday July 11 2016, @03:13AM

            Normally I'd say I don't need white knighted either but that was just funny.

            I'm likely more in agreement with you than Buzzard on the matter of abhorrent police conduct (tho for me, it's largely due to the understanding that the overwhelmingly vast majority of laws being enforced by police are illegal laws).

            I wouldn't put money on it. I'm no more a fan of bullshit laws or police acting illegally than I am an actual avian. I'm not going to blame everything on the cops when a specific culture is hell bent on destroying itself either though.

            --
            My rights don't end where your fear begins.
            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11 2016, @02:58PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 11 2016, @02:58PM (#373136)

              I don't need white knighted

              You were only incidental, and my goal was not to defend you. My goal was to prompt Azuma to be accurate with the facts (e.g. the timing of your 1:1 comment) and to use reason instead of invective so that I as an otherwise disinterested SN reader (presumably along with others) could follow the thread of ideas and decide who was presenting the better ones. I assume Asuma has a reason for flinging so many insults, and would prefer to read about that instead of just the insults themselves, as most posts containing just insults belong at -1. Even the guy who seems to be MikeeUSA posts his reasons - I've been able to think about his reasoning, identify specific aspects of it which are fatally flawed, and reject his arguments as inferior... all because reason was used to at least some degree. There are still other viewpoints that deserve to be considered, even if the majority doesn't think they are the best ones: "individual greater than society" and vice versa are a key examples, and proponents of both would do well to understand the opponents' reasoning.

              • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday July 11 2016, @04:08PM

                by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Monday July 11 2016, @04:08PM (#373177) Journal

                My reasons are very simple: I have seen, many many times, and I suspect in other bodies (yes, I believe in reincarnation--wish I didn't but I have memories that don't belong to me...) what happens when that kind of ignorance and hate reaches a certain saturation threshold.

                As a country, not to say as a planet, we are on the brink of a major disaster. Every time this cycle loops around we have more and more powerful force multipliers (world travel, worldwide communication, new weapon types and delivery methods etc) and fewer and fewer stopgaps in place. And we have less and less in our natural resource base to rebuild from should we well and truly fuck up and blow ourselves back to the Bronze Age; the easy petroleum is already used up, our aquifers are mostly drained, we've degraded our topsoil and acidified our oceans and mulched our tropical forests beyond repair, and so forth. If we lose our current high technological civilization, we aren't ever going to get another one.

                When the avalanche is in motion, the pebbles don't get to point fingers. I am trying my absolute damndest to secure that slope in my own little way, and the reason I'm being deliberately inflammatory and insulting is that ridicule produces a subconscious bias against the ideas that are being ridiculed. No, it's not fair, but the majority of people operate mainly on their emotions rather than their reasons, and if I am to be effective I have to tailor my approach to my audience.

                In the grand scheme of things, people like JMorris are small potatoes. But, again, small things add up over time. It only takes a little lowering of consciousness here, a patter of small injustices there, and before you know it, people are tearing each others' throats out.

                --
                I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2016, @03:29AM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2016, @03:29AM (#373448)

                  Nothing in your post indicates that we are unable to communicate with each other using reason, even though I may not (and do not) hold all the same viewpoints as you. I agree with you that ignorance is a severe problem in USian society, and rather than outright "hate", I see the initiation of violence as a terrible crime that is widespread and near the root of most causes of conflict between private people and government agents (and indeed among many private people themselves).

                  If I may be so bold as to paraphrase your views on the use of insults: it seems to me that, even if your goals appear noble, you are attempting to use deceit in the form of attempting to manipulate the subconcious thoughts of readers through use of wanton invective. The only use for myself that I can currently find for deceit is in all-out war. (While it does appear that armies are gathering for war, I do not yet believe that I am a specific war target, or at least, not currently targetted by an enemy with capabilities that possess a threat greater than I can reasonably counter without resorting to deceit.) Free civilization is built on trust. Absent trust, society quickly (from a historical perspective, at least) falls apart. If you and I both own shoe stores, and I steal my inventory instead of paying for it like you do, you will soon be put out of business as you cannot afford to match the prices I can set on my stolen inventory. On a societal scale, this translates to unpunished fraud and theft quickly destroying the foundations of said society (fellow USians, does this not sound familiar?). Thus, I prefer to use honest reason whenever possible. I propose it is the best approach for everyone interested in a strong, peaceful, stable society.

                  If you and I don't view dishonesty similarly, then perhaps I can dissuade you from voluminous insults by appealing to your stated dislike of hatred? What is the expected result of being exposed to a constant barrage of insults from another person if not dislike, annoyance, and certainly in some cases, hatred of the insult-slinger? If there are only insults, no reason is apparent, no ideas are being exchanged, no actual communication is occurring, and thus no improvement in relations can be expected. Ultimately, the product of a constant stream of insults is likely to be hatred, one of the two things you've stated as wanting to avoid, at least to saturation.

                  As anecdotal evidence to support my assertion, may I ask you what you believe your response to me as a faceless AC would have been should my first reply to you have been filled with angry insults and nothing else? We've currently arrived at the point where we are sharing overviews of core viewpoints with each other - could that have been an expected result if I were merely trying to negatively influence your readers' subconcious while you were trying to do the same to mine?

                  Ignorance is curable, within a human being's finite limitations in a near-infinite universe, and this is where I see as the most valuable use of my time: educating others and being educated by others. I find that I can only tenuously grasp the basics of most subjects and am therefore not well suited to educating others in such regards. The few areas where I do believe I can be useful as an educational source are those which I can distill the essence into a clear and concise message fpr the listener, even if it results in the listener rejecting my information. If I cannot easily explain the subject because it is "too complicated", I usually find that it is my own lack of sufficient understanding of the subject that is the barrier, rather than a fault with my audience. The downside to this viewpoint is that I am limited in the subjects I can seriously engage in because I am ignorant about a great many subjects and am not fond of wildly airing assertions to all corners of the Internet which I cannot soundly back up.

                  In closing, I hope that you will decide that the best approach for dealing with someone who seems to claim that all people shot by cops are crooks would be something along the lines of attacking the flawed premise with counter-examples or even rhetoric:

                  Yup, good riddance to John Crawford [youtube.com] and Jerry Waller [policestateusa.com]. Dirty crooks, the both of them, shot by cops as they deserved to be! Oh, wait, no - I meant the opposite: cops murdered totally innocent people and got off scot-free. It's a good thing this doesn't happen all [innocentdown.org] the [policemisconduct.net] time [google.com]! ... oh, wait... it does!

                  It takes more time, but the effect can still be abrasive, yet reasoned and persuasive to those interested in learning about the topic without needlessly generating more hate.

                  • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday July 12 2016, @05:14AM

                    by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Tuesday July 12 2016, @05:14AM (#373468) Journal

                    Uh...who are you?

                    --
                    I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
                    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2016, @06:01AM

                      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2016, @06:01AM (#373481)

                      No one of consequence.

                      • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday July 12 2016, @06:09AM

                        by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Tuesday July 12 2016, @06:09AM (#373483) Journal

                        You're making some good points, but I'm out of patience with these particular people. There is such a thing as wearing out another person's good will. More to the point, when I tried this approach, nothing changed...so why bother? It's like giving medicine to a corpse.

                        --
                        I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
                        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2016, @08:49AM

                          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 12 2016, @08:49AM (#373522)

                          I deeply empathize with your frustration, as should most people who have interacted with other humans on teh internets. It can be helpful to keep in mind that ideas, like seeds, sometimes take time to show signs of growth. (I'm a living example of someone who had an idea planted in mind a decade before it actually sprouted to the point of changing my worldview.)

                          Who is your audience; more to the point: who do you want your audience to be? I'll assume for the moment that your primary audience when dealing with posters you find frustrating are bystanding readers and not particularly the parent poster themselves. (If your audience is the poster, the "corpse", then why bother responding to them at all if they're "dead" unless it's to blow off steam at the expense of bystanders' eyeballs, eyeballs which may have mod points?) We as the bystanders are only likely to have the immediate thread in front of us as context for the entire argument, and if Poster A is calmly and cooly posting assertions that seem reasonable, and Poster B is raging at Poster A by calling them every name in the book without apparent cause and using nothing but insults as a counter to Poster A's assertions, I strongly suspect that most readers not already in solid opposition to Poster A's views will view Poster B as the "bad guy".

                          If you can present a clear, concise example of a fatal flaw in the other's post, you not only have a chance of swaying the audience to your view, but for authors who value fact and reason, you also have a chance at changing their viewpoint as well, as in my own example above. (Posters that are blatant trolls or liars I do tend to directly label as such, preferably with one or two links to examples from their own posting history.) Even if you both don't come to an agreement, you at least have a much better shot at coming to an understanding of each other's viewpont, along with a historical thread to reference in the future, where future disagreements on worldviews can be summed up with, for example, "that guy just thinks drug users should be dragged into the street and shot", with a link to the relevant thread containing the poster's own words.

                          It also seems critically important to at least consider the possibility that one or more of your positions may be erroneous. If my mace has a big 'ol crack in the handle, I'd prefer to find out about it quickly and get it fixed before I find out in the middle of a fight and am forced to fall back on something like the Private Frost method [youtube.com]. Testing one's ideas in the open marketplace tends to shape them and make them stronger (assuming they don't get killed outright).

                          Is it even ultimately desirable to have an audience whose favor was only gained by calling someone else the rough equivalent of a "stinky-face"...?

                        • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Wednesday July 13 2016, @08:28PM

                          by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Wednesday July 13 2016, @08:28PM (#374180) Homepage Journal

                          When you tried a semi-rational approach in IRC we had a reasonably interesting discussion. Here your words are the verbal equivalent of a monkey flinging its own shit. If you really think anyone is dissuaded by unbacked insults here, you have vastly underestimated this community. We're the pros from Dover when it comes to arguments and know weakass ones when we see them.

                          --
                          My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                          • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Wednesday July 13 2016, @08:36PM

                            by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Wednesday July 13 2016, @08:36PM (#374181) Journal

                            Except that the insults, dear Uzzard, are dessert after the meal of the main argument. I know your patterns here: I watch what parts of my posts get quoted and replied to. Lies of omission combined with strawmen and misdirection.

                            Sorry, but you're not going to mess with my head so easily. I've spent an unfortunate amount of time dealing with actual psychopaths; someone like you, who is merely evil and willfully uninformed, is small potatoes.

                            --
                            I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
                            • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday July 14 2016, @10:12AM

                              Exactly, twit. Except you're all dessert and no argument. You're Soylent's Trump.

                              --
                              My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                              • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday July 14 2016, @04:19PM

                                by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Thursday July 14 2016, @04:19PM (#374399) Journal

                                Wow. I'm actually impressed with the sheer amount of gall it must have taken to type that. Anyone who decides to research both our post histories will see 1) that isn't even close to true and 2) it would be far better said of you, if Ethanol-Fueled weren't a better candidate for the position on account of actually being funny sometimes.

                                No, I'm a bit more like the lovechild of H. L. Mencken and George Carlin with two X chromosomes. As to you...no one comes to mind immediately, but I've got an image of someone with a confederate flag and more toes than teeth.

                                You've just insulted every single reader of this site who's smart enough to make even a cursory effort to browse peoples' post histories. Keep digging that hole, Uzzard; the more you run your idiot trap, the worse you make yourself look.

                                --
                                I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
                                • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday July 14 2016, @09:29PM

                                  Thank you for making my point for me. If you're just gonna troll, we demand better round these parts. You should take lessons or something.

                                  --
                                  My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                                  • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Friday July 15 2016, @02:28AM

                                    by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Friday July 15 2016, @02:28AM (#374625) Journal

                                    I am not getting through to you, am I?

                                    What angle do I need to turn this at to get it through your head, Uzzard? You are fooling no one, except possibly yourself. And you're not being clever by responding to everything with "hurr durr that's a troll." Keep digging...

                                    --
                                    I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
                                    • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday July 15 2016, @09:38AM

                                      You're not arguing, sweety. You're just flinging shit. Not even skillfully. My 12 year old nephew trolls better and he thinks copy pastaing "kill yourself" thirty times is witty.

                                      --
                                      My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                                      • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Friday July 15 2016, @04:54PM

                                        by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Friday July 15 2016, @04:54PM (#375000) Journal

                                        You can say this as much as you want, but you may as well try and put out the sun by drawing the shades and scribbling "night" on the walls in your own feces. The record speaks for itself.

                                        --
                                        I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...