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http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/08/opinion/sunday/a-confession-of-liberal-intolerance.html?_r=0
WE progressives believe in diversity, and we want women, blacks, Latinos, gays and Muslims at the table — er, so long as they aren't conservatives. Universities are the bedrock of progressive values, but the one kind of diversity that universities disregard is ideological and religious. We're fine with people who don't look like us, as long as they think like us.
O.K., that's a little harsh. But consider George Yancey, a sociologist who is black and evangelical. "Outside of academia I faced more problems as a black," he told me. "But inside academia I face more problems as a Christian, and it is not even close."
I've been thinking about this because on Facebook recently I wondered aloud whether universities stigmatize conservatives and undermine intellectual diversity. The scornful reaction from my fellow liberals proved the point.
"Much of the 'conservative' worldview consists of ideas that are known empirically to be false," said Carmi. "The truth has a liberal slant," wrote Michelle. "Why stop there?" asked Steven. "How about we make faculties more diverse by hiring idiots?"
To me, the conversation illuminated primarily liberal arrogance — the implication that conservatives don't have anything significant to add to the discussion. My Facebook followers have incredible compassion for war victims in South Sudan, for kids who have been trafficked, even for abused chickens, but no obvious empathy for conservative scholars facing discrimination.
The stakes involve not just fairness to conservatives or evangelical Christians, not just whether progressives will be true to their own values, not just the benefits that come from diversity (and diversity of thought is arguably among the most important kinds), but also the quality of education itself. When perspectives are unrepresented in discussions, when some kinds of thinkers aren't at the table, classrooms become echo chambers rather than sounding boards — and we all lose.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by bradley13 on Monday August 29 2016, @07:43AM
Francis writes: Conservative views are not equally well-reasoned and equally well-grounded in reality.
Which pretty much proves the point that TFA is trying to make. Liberal arrogance: if you don't agree with me, you are wrong.
Particularly in the US, conservatives and the religious right ran together for too long, and now the religious views have come to dominate. The conservative movement in the US is no longer politically conservative. The Republicans are happily big government, as long as that government is imposing morality on people and funding the right programs.
The big problem of liberals, as pointed out in julian's comment, is moral relativism. European culture, with its roots running back to the Romans and ancient Greeks, is the foundation of western civilization. It's downright weird that people arguably at the pinnacle of this civilization spend much of their time trying to tear the culture that underlies it.
This liberal failure to defend their own culture is the reason for the rise of the alt-right. The alt-right is well on the way to displacing traditional conservatives, and its call to battle is simple: "defend white, european culture".
As soon as liberals see someone write the word "white", they cry "racist". That is not the case. People of other races and other cultures are free to take pride in their own cultures. The alt-right simply says that it should not be taboo for white Europeans to do the same.
Everyone is somebody else's weirdo.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday August 29 2016, @07:54AM
You know, we aren't all this dumb. I haaaaaaaate "post-modernism" and will call it out wherever I see it, and am not stupid enough to join fellow leftists in their idiotic love affair with Islam. Frankly I'm probably better described as "left libertarian" than "liberal" in the modern sense, with a heavy overlay of technological fascination.
Thing is, though, this entire submission is bait. And it's stupid bait. Furthermore, it's a cynical attempt to turn the value of tolerance around on itself by essentially whinging that people aren't tolerant of intolerance. And then lambasting their targets for "undermining their own values." The amount of projection here is incredible.
No, we're not tolerant of intolerance, because that would be a complete fucking contradiction in terms. And hey, guess what: some ideas ARE worse than others. What was that about postmodernism again? Yeah. The postmodern thing to do would be to ignore that. So it's damned if we do, damned if we don't, all of it coming from people who frankly can't find their ass with both hands.
I agree the liberals have bankrupted themselves over the last 20-odd years with lack of intellectual rigor. Sad, but true. But this submission is bullshit, and every single inbred toothless jackhole (looking at YOU, KHallow) who's come along to preen and strut can go fuck yourselves.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 29 2016, @08:11AM
> I am not stupid enough to join fellow leftists in their idiotic love affair with Islam.
Just stupid enough to join fellow bigots in their idiotic crusade against muslims.
Like runaway, you are an ISIS collaborator. Helping to spread their message that there is no place in the west for muslims.
When in fact the strongest foes of ISIS and "radical islam" are the billion+ muslims who aren't assholes.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday August 29 2016, @08:15AM
Oh fuck off. Islam is toxic as hell and anyone who's ever read the Koran can tell you that. The only way we're gonna beat it is slow cultural assimilation, which we CANNOT do by letting idiots launch all-out offensives against the Muslim world. Not to mention, a good chunk of our Christians are basically Taliban with Bibles.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 29 2016, @08:45AM
> Oh fuck off. Islam is toxic as hell and anyone who's ever read the Koran can tell you that.
When are you going to read the quran? I don't mean verses hand-picked without context by people deliberately selling hate. I mean actually read the whole book, or at least entire passages with the aid of context from academics with an interest in describing how it is applied by regular muslims?
> Not to mention, a good chunk of our Christians are basically Taliban with Bibles.
An overwhelming small minority. The worst of them live in the same conditions as the worst of muslims. For example, are you aware that female genital mutilation is a social practice bounded by geography, not religion [politifact.com] as is commonly asserted?
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 29 2016, @02:36PM
The Quran, placed in chronological order, describes the transition of Mohummad from a troubled nobody, to leader of a failed peaceful religion, to a wildly successful bandit-warrior. Chronology is critical due to the Quran's own "satanic verses" that outline the concept of abrogation: the old is replaced by the new. The peaceful aspects of Islam have been abrogated by the newer conquer-the-world warlike Islam.
Embedded concepts in the "cannot-be-wrong" Quran make reasoning with Islamic advocates impossible due to the existence of "moral lying" termed taqiyya.
Those interested in further analysis would be well-served to read the book Prophet of Doom [prophetofdoom.net], freely available in PDF format (and sadly lacking its former accessibility of HTML, audiobook, and dead-tree formats).
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Monday August 29 2016, @02:54PM
I probably read the Quran before you were born. I took that little task on when I was in the Navy. I was running low on reading material, stumbled across an interesting looking book, and picked it up.
EVERYTHING that people fault the Bible for, is repeated in the Quran, and multiplied a thousand fold.
For all of it's excesses, Chriatianity was founded by a peaceful man. Islam was founded at the point of a sword. Anyone who doesn't understand that Islam's purpose is to conquer the world is just plain stupid. For all her faults, Azuma at least understands that.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 29 2016, @04:34PM
I probably read the Quran before you were born. I took that little task on when I was in the Navy. I was running low on reading material, stumbled across an interesting looking book, and picked it up.
Oh puhlease, nobody believes that bullshit. You may have thumbed through a copy, but every post you make about islam proves that your understanding of the quran is nothing more than crap you got from dedicated islamofoes. Half the time you post a URL on the topic its from a hate site. If you had a serious interest in understanding rather than scapegoating your sources would be a lot more neutral.
For all of it's excesses, Chriatianity was founded by a peaceful man. Islam was founded at the point of a sword.
Really? So, if that is the end all and be all determinant, the fact that Moe and his buddies were chased out of Mecca (the hegira) [historyworld.net] at the point of a sword after a failed plot to assassinate him ought to count for the same. The hegira is the official start of Islam. But that doesn't count, does it? How about his return to Mecca which is negotiated through diplomacy? Nope that doesn't count either.
Your hypocrisy is especially ripe given how frequently you promote violence in the name of christian superiority.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Runaway1956 on Monday August 29 2016, @05:47PM
Moe was a warrior, a pedophile, a necrophile, a murderer, a rapist, and so much more. I've not discovered any redeeming virtues.
I've read a bit about the Hindu faith, Native American spirituality, Wicca, Paganism, and more. Compared to any of those, Islam is a death cult.
I repeat - everything that is wrong with the Christian patriarchy is multiplied a thousand fold in Islam.
Thanks to that pedophile pig, you can find "learned" imams in Islam proclaiming that it is perfectly alright for a horny man to use infants for satisfaction. Don't believe it? Read this report from the US Army - http://www.wnd.com/2012/12/army-acknowledges-pedophilia-part-of-islam/ [wnd.com]
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday August 30 2016, @05:09AM
AC below me said it better than me.
I'll restrict myself to answering your rhetorical question: although not in the original Arabic I've read the thing several times all the way through. It's not a huge book, though it still boggles me that apparently some people *memorize* the entire thing. Thing is, it doesn't get any better with repeated reads. It just...doesn't. The Bible at least has some interesting material in it (I like Eccelesiastes, at least until the very obviously pseudepigraphical ending...). I honestly cannot find one redeeming thing about the Koran.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Monday August 29 2016, @02:48PM
You're still a half-wit. ISIS is recruiting people FROM AROUND THE WORLD. England, France, Belgium, anyplace where Muslims are wealthy enough to have spare people with the time to enlist. You've read the headlines about the narcissistic little teenage asswipes who run away to join ISIS. But, most of the asswipes don't get into the news - they just go, and no one cares. Their mothers and fathers approve of the children becoming martyrs.
Wake up and smell the coffee.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 29 2016, @04:36PM
> You're still a half-wit. ISIS is recruiting people FROM AROUND THE WORLD.
And you are doing your damndest to help them by spreading their message.
You fucking collaborator.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday August 30 2016, @05:11AM
So what do you suggest we do? Because I think alerting fellow leftists that, hey, this shit is toxic as hell and it's massively hypocritical to give it a free pass is just basic logical hygiene; it undermines supposed liberal values to let that shit slide.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 1, Flamebait) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday August 29 2016, @12:46PM
There is nothing libertarian about you. By the way, how do you get the jackboots to fit on over your harpy talons?
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 29 2016, @02:48PM
I've been working on trying to dig out the outline of Azuma's foundation for scrutiny for a while now (the benefit to me being energetic attacks on my own premises which should serve to help strengthen them by revealing any weaknesses I can discard). Every time I've gotten close to the crux of the matter where cognitive dissonance should start being painful for authoritarians-in-denial, she has not chosen to continue the discussion.
Latest thread where I was starting to get hopeful [soylentnews.org], continuing down this branch [soylentnews.org].
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday August 29 2016, @11:16PM
Oh, I just didn't bother either believing or disbelieving her. Or caring. We are on the Internet after all. Where the men are men, the women are men, and the kids are FBI agents.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday August 30 2016, @04:58AM
Please...the only thing "self-owned" about you is in the sense of you constantly playing yourself. Anyone who's so completely un-self-aware as to assert their own independence in one breath and in the next bend over and profess pig-bottom authoritarian Christian faith is a complete basket case. It was silly of me to even waste my time on you.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 30 2016, @11:28AM
The single strong theme consistent in both (individual self-ownership and authoritarian Christianity) is individual freedom of choice.
(Since we've engaged once on my reasoning on some of this [soylentnews.org] and it seems that you chose to disregard my thoughts in their entirety as "irrelevant, fallacious, and outright sociopathic" with no further explaination, I see little point in re-engaging on such complex matters at this time versus simple, tightly-focussed topics.)
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday August 30 2016, @04:12PM
> The single strong theme consistent in both (individual self-ownership and authoritarian Christianity) is individual freedom of choice.
Those words all make sense individually, but not in that order. They make, in fact, the complete opposite of sense when you put them in that order. I don't think you'll ever understand why, though, because you don't want to. From the sound of it you haven't studied apologia or formal logic much.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday August 30 2016, @05:00AM
What jackboots? I much prefer to go au naturel...makes it SO much easier to get a tight grip on the soft, weak throats of people like you and *squeeze.*
Seriously, you've lost. You've got nothing but tone trolling left. Sorry (not sorry) if I've hurt your precious, fragile feelings; may it be the worst thing I ever do to you!
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Wednesday August 31 2016, @01:53AM
The jackboots you consistently break out every time you find out someone less fortunate than you exists. You, my sad little muffin, are nothing approaching a libertarian. A libertarian is by definition fiscally conservative and socially liberal. If you're both fiscally and socially liberal, they already have a word for that: Liberal.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Wednesday August 31 2016, @04:40AM
When did Libertarian morph into "selfish, shortsighted, autofellating Randian jackoff?" And why do you alt-right jackasses think you invented the search for a philosophical justification for selfishness?
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Monday August 29 2016, @02:45PM
"o it's damned if we do, damned if we don't,"
And, you'll be just as damned as all those patriarchs you hate so much.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 29 2016, @08:01AM
we can't all be right. 1+1 can't be 2 and 3 at the same time. if you think it is 3, then at least in context of maths, you are wrong.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 29 2016, @08:23AM
The big problem of liberals, as pointed out in julian's comment, is moral relativism. European culture, with its roots running back to the Romans and ancient Greeks, is the foundation of western civilization. It's downright weird that people arguably at the pinnacle of this civilization spend much of their time trying to tear the culture that underlies it.
You know what's funny about that? In china they say exactly the same thing about Chinese culture.
Its pretty much the same story everywhere. Our team is best because that's all we know. You complain about the bogeyman of "moral relativism" when in fact you embrace it, you just don't realize you are doing it because you are profoundly ignorant of any cultures beyond your own.
> As soon as liberals see someone write the word "white", they cry "racist".
It ain't liberal to call racism racist. When you use your own culture to claim moral superiority over cultures you have only petty knowledge of, don't expect a free pass from anyone with more knowledge than you. The alt-right's fetishization of incivility for incivility's sake doesn't exactly encourage anything more than a simple smack-down either.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday August 29 2016, @12:49PM
The ability to be uncivil is what the alt-right fetishize. Primarily because the left thinks they get to define what civil means and who it applies to.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 3, Informative) by TheRaven on Monday August 29 2016, @09:47AM
Liberal arrogance: if you don't agree with me, you are wrong.
No, more 'we tried this for 400 years and it didn't work, why do you expect it will work better now?' Liberals are people who want to make new mistakes, conservatives are people who want to recreate old ones.
European culture, with its roots running back to the Romans and ancient Greeks, is the foundation of western civilization.
Ah, revisionist history too. You might want to have a look at how much the Persian Empire influenced both the Greeks and Romans. Rome couldn't have built its empire without technology from Persia.
sudo mod me up
(Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Monday August 29 2016, @11:09AM
European culture, with its roots running back to the Romans and ancient Greeks, is the foundation of western civilization.
Ah, revisionist history too. You might want to have a look at how much the Persian Empire influenced both the Greeks and Romans. Rome couldn't have built its empire without technology from Persia.
And one mustn't forget that much of the knowledge of the ancient greeks and romans was lost during the dark and middle ages in Europe. That knowledge only came back to "Western" civilization through the Muslims, which sowed the seeds that would bring for the Renaissance and the Enlightenment.
So, next time you see a Muslim, thank him or her for the fruits of Western Civilization.
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Monday August 29 2016, @11:11AM
Screwed up the quote tags above. That should read:
European culture, with its roots running back to the Romans and ancient Greeks, is the foundation of western civilization.
Ah, revisionist history too. You might want to have a look at how much the Persian Empire influenced both the Greeks and Romans. Rome couldn't have built its empire without technology from Persia.
And one mustn't forget that much of the knowledge of the ancient Greeks and Romans was lost during the dark and middle ages in Europe. That knowledge only came back to "Western" civilization through the Muslims, which sowed the seeds that would bring for the Renaissance and the Enlightenment.
So, next time you see a Muslim, thank him or her for the fruits of Western Civilization.
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 29 2016, @03:03PM
You assume that a civilizational benefit produced by Islamic countries was produced because of Islam rather than in spite of Islam. The wanton destruction of massive libraries by past conquering Muslims [wikipedia.org] supports the idea that societal fruits borne out of Islamic countries was done in spite of Islam: "If those books agree with the Koran, then we have no need of them. If they are opposed to the Koran, burn them."
Ponder the ramifications about all the wonders that we could be enjoying today, but are not, because so much knowledge was intentionally destroyed by conquering Muslims.
(Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Monday August 29 2016, @11:06PM
You assume that a civilizational benefit produced by Islamic countries was produced because of Islam rather than in spite of Islam. The wanton destruction of massive libraries by past conquering Muslims supports the idea that societal fruits borne out of Islamic countries was done in spite of Islam: "If those books agree with the Koran, then we have no need of them. If they are opposed to the Koran, burn them."
Your ignorance of history is compounded by the fact that you didn't even bother to read the source you cited [wikipedia.org]. I'll make a (almost certainly) vain attempt to help you educate yourself, but I'm not holding my breath:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_science_in_the_Middle_Ages#Early_Middle_Ages_.28AD_476.E2.80.931000.29 [wikipedia.org]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_in_the_medieval_Islamic_world [wikipedia.org]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age [wikipedia.org]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_the_Library_of_Alexandria [wikipedia.org]
Better yet, go back under your bridge.
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 29 2016, @11:21PM
I'm [soylentnews.org] confused - are you claiming that Muslim invaders did not destroy ancient libraries on a regular basis? (That was my primary point, you see - relying on wikipedia for authoritative information is foolhardy [dailydot.com] for pretty much anything.)
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Tuesday August 30 2016, @06:40AM
And think how much further ahead Western civilization would be if the invading Muslims hadn't burned some 80% of the ancient libraries.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Tuesday August 30 2016, @04:01PM
Cool story, bro. Except Western "Civilization" had already lost most of the knowledge of the ancient world and Christianity was persecuting anyone and destroying anything that conflicted with their dogma *before* Islam existed.
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Tuesday August 30 2016, @04:19PM
Not really true; you're forgetting the eastern Roman empire.
And the real cause of the dark ages was Islamic pirates on the Mediterranean, cutting off trade (Egypt was the breadbasket of Europe).
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 29 2016, @09:51AM
Which pretty much proves the point that TFA is trying to make. Liberal arrogance: if you don't agree with me, you are wrong.
Shut up, Bradley! Being correct and able to reason and know stuff does not make you arrogant! You are not wrong because you disagree with liberals, you are wrong because you are wrong. (And not seeing that suggests a certain lack of mental acuity.) And liberals are not wrong because you say they only say you are wrong! They are right because you are in fact wrong. Now about that increase in minimum wage . . . .
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday August 29 2016, @12:59PM
Increasing minimum wage? Minimum wage is for teenagers and people who don't want to care about or put any effort into their job. If your job demands more of you, you should not be making minimum wage. I have no problem with you demanding more pay if you are bringing more to the table. That's what unions are supposed to be for (though they mostly aren't nowadays) if you're unable to argue your own raise.
Raising minimum wage though is absolutely one of the most foolish things you can do. It is effectively saying "I don't think very much of the job people making what I want to raise the minimum wage to are doing. I'd like to fiscally equate their performance to what a teenager can do with one day of training." as well as "You know, inflation hasn't fucked me in the ass nearly enough lately."
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by julian on Monday August 29 2016, @10:06PM
As soon as liberals see someone write the word "white", they cry "racist". That is not the case. People of other races and other cultures are free to take pride in their own cultures. The alt-right simply says that it should not be taboo for white Europeans to do the same.
Well I'm a liberal, and if I see anyone displaying an overabundance of creepy pride in their race I'm going to call them a racist. Doesn't matter if they are white or black or Asian. Racial pride almost always turns into racial supremacy. It certainly has in the alt-right. They usually hide their beliefs in layers of irony and pseudo-intellectual pablum but it never takes more than a few questions to uncover.
I will agree with you that Western civilization deserves and needs defending, but here's where we depart. You seem to attach race to the Western cultural identity. I think that's an error. Anyone can be a Westerner if they adopt Western values. A black African can come to the USA or Europe and fight for liberal secular democracy just as well as anyone else; and they often do. Here's another point where I diverge from modern liberalism: I recognize that many of these immigrants aren't interested in defending and building Western culture. They come here and are resentful, they want to destroy what we have.
And here's the part that really makes me a bad liberal: the majority of these bad apples are coming from one particular tree--Islam. But I turn the tables yet again by saying Muslims or people of Muslim heritage can and do make just as good Westerners as any white Christian. Witness Maajid Nawaz or Ayaan Hirsi Ali. Either of them has done more for Western civilization than any alt-right mental defective racist. I'd rather my entire neighborhood be filled with people like them than Trump supporters who share my skin color. I have absolutely no use for racial pride or for people so bereft of real accomplishments they have to cling to the achievements of people long dead who shared their melanin concentration.