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posted by martyb on Monday December 05 2016, @01:13PM   Printer-friendly
from the embrace-extend-extinguish? dept.

According to an article at Snopes.com:

The Army Corps of Engineers has denied the easement needed to complete the Dakota Access Pipeline, according Colonel Henderson, who notified Veterans for Standing Rock co-organizer Michael A. Wood Jr on 4 December 2016.

More than 3,000 veterans had converged at the Standing Rock camp to support the Sioux in their ongoing opposition to the building of a $3.7 billion pipeline that would cross through disputed land managed by the Army Corps of Engineers. Wood said upon learning of the move, "This is history."

From a report in Al Jazeera :

The US Army Corps of Engineers has turned down a permit for a controversial pipeline project running through North Dakota, in a victory for Native Americans and climate activists who have protested against the project for several months, according to a statement released.

The 1,885km Dakota Access Pipeline, owned by Texas-based Energy Transfer Partners LP, had been complete except for a segment planned to run under Lake Oahe, a reservoir formed by a dam on the Missouri River.

"The Army will not grant an easement to cross Lake Oahe at the proposed location based on the current record," a statement from the US Army said.

The Standing Rock Sioux tribe, along with climate activists, have been protesting the $3.8bn project, saying it could contaminate the water supply and damage sacred tribal lands.

[...] "Today, the US Army Corps of Engineers announced that it will not be granting the easement to cross Lake Oahe for the proposed Dakota Access Pipeline," said Standing Rock Chairman Dave Archambault II, in a statement.

"Instead, the Corps will be undertaking an environmental impact statement to look at possible alternative routes."


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  • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 05 2016, @03:36PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 05 2016, @03:36PM (#437182)

    Why are cat ladies and hippies dirtbags for protesting? Because they are social signalers (something you can't prove)? Because they are paid off by Soros (again, let's see the proof)? Or because they believe in something and are doing what they feel is right?

    If all sides are dirtbags, don't forget your own side. You're a dirtbag not only because you are making up shit from your armchair and shitting all over people who aren't as mean, lazy, and closeminded as you are. You're also a dirtbag because you're human scum. All humans, animals, plants, solar systems and everything else should be eliminated. How dare you have any kind of motivation or goal. Fuck you all.

    Starting Score:    0  points
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    Total Score:   1  
  • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Monday December 05 2016, @03:41PM

    by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Monday December 05 2016, @03:41PM (#437186) Homepage Journal

    I think we've covered the matter of protestors. A large number of them are Soros paid part time activists.

    I'll salute the Indians, and I'll salute the veterans. I respect both. I have a little less respect for the so-called cat-ladies and hippies, but I'll toss them a salute anyway. Those people who are HIRED to protest against (or for) something are worthless, mercenary scumbags. Those same people would be just as willing to change sides to attend a counter-protest if the pay was right.

    --
    There is a supply side shortage of pronouns. You will take whatever you are offered.
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 05 2016, @03:47PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 05 2016, @03:47PM (#437190)

      > I think we've covered the matter of protestors. A large number of them are Soros paid part time activists.

      No matter what your mommy told you, repeating your deepest wishes won't make them come true.

      • (Score: 3, Funny) by Runaway1956 on Monday December 05 2016, @03:54PM

        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Monday December 05 2016, @03:54PM (#437198) Homepage Journal

        If we're going full childish here, I can tell you what YOUR MOM told me last night!

        --
        There is a supply side shortage of pronouns. You will take whatever you are offered.
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 05 2016, @03:58PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 05 2016, @03:58PM (#437202)

          Still zero evidence for your claims.
          VLM SOP

          • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Monday December 05 2016, @04:10PM

            by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Monday December 05 2016, @04:10PM (#437210) Homepage Journal

            http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/viewSubCategory.asp?id=1237 [discoverthenetworks.org]

            If you have to have it spelled out, you can start unraveling the connections from that page. Soros has spent more billions to undermine and destablize the United States than the mere 14 billion spent doing the same in Ukraine. Soros is a disruptive element, and I can't figure out why he's still alive. He probably has a pact with the devil.

            --
            There is a supply side shortage of pronouns. You will take whatever you are offered.
            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 05 2016, @04:14PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 05 2016, @04:14PM (#437212)

              "Go google it" is the last refuge of the intellectual coward

              VLM, and apparently you, know it to be true. So you must have already done the research.
              Ain't no reason you can't share it with us. Unless you are liars.

              • (Score: 1, Flamebait) by Runaway1956 on Monday December 05 2016, @05:43PM

                by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Monday December 05 2016, @05:43PM (#437271) Homepage Journal

                You're a lazy cuck, aren't you? You try to shame your betters into spoon feeding you. What research have YOU done on Soros? I've given you a page full of his organizations. That was given to me, free of charge, by another member here, and I passed it on, at the same price. But you? You can't be bothered to read it, or to think about it, or to follow any leads from the page.

                I've got an idea for you. Just fuck off and die, alright?

                --
                There is a supply side shortage of pronouns. You will take whatever you are offered.
                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 05 2016, @05:46PM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 05 2016, @05:46PM (#437274)

                  > You're a lazy cuck, aren't you?

                  Always knew you were a racist.
                  Didn't realize you were into watching black men dick your wife.

                  > You try to shame your betters into spoon feeding you.

                  You made the claims, the burden of proof is on you.

                  • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Monday December 05 2016, @05:52PM

                    by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Monday December 05 2016, @05:52PM (#437276) Homepage Journal

                    So - you're a racist lazy cuck. Do you wish to log in, so that we recognize the racist lazy cuck when he posts?

                    --
                    There is a supply side shortage of pronouns. You will take whatever you are offered.
                    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 05 2016, @09:14PM

                      by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 05 2016, @09:14PM (#437387)

                      You keep using that word and you don't even realize what that advertises to the world about who you are.
                      And now you want to whine about the fact that you are arguing with an AC because you believe using the label "runaway" is some sort of moral triumph.
                      What a petty, vapid narcissist you are. You've already said you have no intention of making a good faith argument, you deserve shit.

                      • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday December 06 2016, @01:39AM

                        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday December 06 2016, @01:39AM (#437504) Homepage Journal

                        Moron - I was the real life runaway. It's descriptive, not some moral thing.

                        --
                        There is a supply side shortage of pronouns. You will take whatever you are offered.
                  • (Score: 2) by Mykl on Tuesday December 06 2016, @02:22AM

                    by Mykl (1112) on Tuesday December 06 2016, @02:22AM (#437514)

                    Don't know why I'm getting involved here, but cuckolding does not necessarily need to involve someone of a different race. Perhaps showing some of your own biases here, AC? Or maybe just your Pornhub preferences...

            • (Score: 2) by butthurt on Tuesday December 06 2016, @03:10AM

              by butthurt (6141) on Tuesday December 06 2016, @03:10AM (#437525) Journal

              According to the page you linked to, Mr. Soros has donated money to an NGO called Earthjustice, about which your page says:

              This group seeks to place severe restrictions on how U.S. land and waterways may be used. It opposes most mining and logging initiatives, commercial fishing businesses, and the use of motorized vehicles in undeveloped areas.

              I did a cursory Web search for pages mentioning both "Standing Rock" and "Soros". RedState [archive.org] asked "Have Environmental Radicals Led the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe to Commit Perjury?" in an essay which is critical of a lawsuit filed by Earthjustice on behalf of the tribe. That sounds rather different from the claim made in this thread, which (as I understand it) is that Mr. Soros is providing financial support so that protesters can travel from other parts of the United States to North Dakota. Am I right in guessing that the outrage is over the idea that outside agitators are astroturfing? I too find astroturfing distasteful, but as others have said no evidence of it has been offered. The other side has allegedly been using violence including rubber bullets, flash-bang grenades, water cannons (it's winter in the U.S.), and attack dogs. If people have been "protesting" purely for the money, either they're crazy or they were paid handsomely. If a billionaire is paying travel expenses and a modest per diem, well, that has been done before. [theatlantic.com] If you find it inappropriate for people to travel between states to attend a protest, perhaps a loose federation of states [wikipedia.org] would be more to your liking. Leaving aside the native territory, the Dakota Access pipeline, as planned, would extend through four states.

              • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday December 06 2016, @01:47PM

                by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday December 06 2016, @01:47PM (#437667) Homepage Journal

                TBH, I really need to find some real evidence, on the web, that I can link to. Parts of what I know about these demonstrations comes from the radio. There was a demonstration against some hotels in Houston, which did not pay their employees $15/hr. SIEU, I think it was? Let me look - - - http://www.seiu.org/ [seiu.org] The radio guy attended the protest, and interviewed a lot of the protestors. He found that almost no one that he interviewed was from Houston. He found several people from Austin and vicinity, but few locals from Houston. He found more who were from out of state. Our interviewer is a person who dresses to look rather scuzzy, so that he can get "in" with migrant workers, vagrants, druggies, and whoever else. He got a number of protestors to admit that they were being PAID to come to the protest. Three busses from out of town were parked nearby, and the interviewer estimated that the busses would hold more than 3/4 of the total protestors on hand.

                Articles like this http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/jan/14/george-soros-funds-ferguson-protests-hopes-to-spur/#content [washingtontimes.com] don't really provide proof, but I more or less believe them.

                This one isn't much easier to "verify" - http://www.democracy21.org/archives/issues/527-groups/george-soros-seiu-each-contribute-2500000-to-the-fund-for-america-a-recently-formed-pro-democratic-527-group/ [democracy21.org]

                And, another - http://www.corson.org/archives/soros/soros13_022211.htm [corson.org]

                Now, getting back to these radio interviews. Individual protestors were asked a number of questions, and a "consensus" seemed to be that socialism and/or communism is a good thing. They want to do away with capitalism, completely. Oddly, most of the people being interviewed couldn't identify prominent figures in communism, such as Karl Marx, Cesar Chavez, Stalin. Most, but not all, of the interviewees were nominees for those videos on You-Tube of vacuous fools who couldn't pour piss out of a boot if the instructions were written on the bottom.

                Those (seemingly) more intelligent interviewees were far less willing to admit where their money was coming from. Asked directly whether SEIU were funding the demonstration, one of the people was quite clear that SEIU was NOT funding the demonstration, instead the funds were channeled through another organization. I can't remember which org that was, but the DJ's immediately jumped on it as another Soros funded org.

                And, no, it's not a "right wing" or "Republican" radio show. You can tune in anytime, to see what they are up to. http://www.waltonandjohnson.com/ [waltonandjohnson.com] They are more Libertarian than anything - crazy bastards, all of them. Their take on the recent election? Americans are freaking crazy to elect Trump, but the alternative was worse. My kind of station, and my kind of people.

                --
                There is a supply side shortage of pronouns. You will take whatever you are offered.
                • (Score: 4, Informative) by butthurt on Tuesday December 06 2016, @08:31PM

                  by butthurt (6141) on Tuesday December 06 2016, @08:31PM (#438010) Journal

                  There was a demonstration against some hotels in Houston, which did not pay their employees $15/hr. [...]

                  Now, getting back to these radio interviews. Individual protestors were asked a number of questions, and a "consensus" seemed to be that socialism and/or communism is a good thing. They want to do away with capitalism, completely. Oddly, most of the people being interviewed couldn't identify prominent figures in communism, such as Karl Marx, Cesar Chavez, Stalin. Most, but not all, of the interviewees were nominees for those videos on You-Tube of vacuous fools who couldn't pour piss out of a boot if the instructions were written on the bottom.

                  The Walton & Johnson site has archives of their shows, but (like you) I didn't find the one you're writing about. You describe it as a protest "against some hotels," not an explicitly pro-communist event. If, as you seem to be describing, Walton and Johnson approached people and asked if communism would be a good idea but the marchers didn't know much about it, there's nothing sinister about their ignorance. If they really were low-paid hotel workers, I would expect them to be poorly educated. The abrasive, confrontational style I saw in a couple of Walton & Johnson's videos could discombobulate people.

                  By the way, Cesar Chavez wasn't a "prominent figure in communism." He's known for being a trade unionist; I doubt he was a communist at all:

                  In 1977, taking a cue from Mao, he staged shouting matches at meetings to drive out colleagues. Sometimes he accused them of being spies for the Republicans or the Communists.

                  -- http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/04/14/hunger-artist-2 [newyorker.com]

                  I did find two Walton and Johnson shows that were related to the SEIU:

                  http://kprcradio.iheart.com/onair/walton-and-johnson-51391/minimum-wage-protesters-are-asked-how-14618482/ [iheart.com]
                  http://kprcradio.iheart.com/onair/walton-and-johnson-51391/mcdonalds-employee-admits-seiu-paid-him-11706226/ [iheart.com]

                  The textual description of the first, titled "Minimum Wage Protesters Are Asked How Much Their Union Leader Gets Paid," uses the term "Union thugs" to describe highly-paid union executives. In the video, demonstrators are also asked whether they work at the protest site, and freely acknowledge that they don't. The latter is titled "McDonald's Employee Admits SEIU Paid Him $15 to Protest WW2 Vets" and I viewed the associated video. It does indeed show a marcher who said he was being paid $15--or perhaps $50--to march. Perhaps he really was, or perhaps he just wanted the rude interviewer to stop bothering him.

                  I glanced at the articles you linked; they seem to be about Mr. Soros donating to organisations that tried to influence the 2004 and 2008 elections, perhaps improperly, and about Soros donating to groups that were active in Ferguson, Missouri. Snopes has a page about the latter:

                  http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/sorosferguson.asp?ref=patrick.net [snopes.com]

                  Certainly astroturfing is a thing, and from the cursory look I took there seems that Mr. Soros contributes to groups that do it.

                  I did find an essay that is critical of the protests at Standing Rock, titled "Protesting at Standing Rock? You May Be Helping George Soros!":

                  https://www.oathkeepers.org/protesting-standing-rock-may-helping-george-soros/ [oathkeepers.org]

                  It has a photo of Mr. Soros with a native head-dress photoshopped in. In spite of that and having Soros' name in the title, it doesn't specifically show how he is associated with the protests, just vague insinuation that I don't find credible. I watched the video linked from the essay, but there's no mention of Mr. Soros in that.

                  I looked at another article that's critical of the protesters:

                  https://web.archive.org/web/20160909143409/http://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattvespa/2016/09/08/no-those-north-dakota-pipeline-protestors-attacked-by-security-dogs-arent-the-victims-n2215750 [archive.org]

                  It doesn't make the charge of astroturfing. I'm just not seeing a credible claim of astroturfing at Standing Rock.

                  More generally, the right of corporations and unions to spend money to advance their political agendas has been affirmed by the U.S. Supreme Court on several occasions:

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_United_v_FEC [wikipedia.org]
                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_National_Bank_of_Boston_v._Bellotti [wikipedia.org]
                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckley_v._Valeo [wikipedia.org]

                  There are efforts to place restrictions on such spending. I'm not sure that many conservatives support such efforts, but perhaps they should look at the co-opting of the Tea Party by the wealthy Koch brothers and ask whether that was in the interest of conservatism.

                  • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday December 07 2016, @12:52AM

                    by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday December 07 2016, @12:52AM (#438145) Homepage Journal

                    Just a comment on the Snopes article:

                    "Soros-sponsored organizations helped mobilize protests in Ferguson, building grass-roots coalitions on the ground backed by a nationwide online and social media campaign."

                    Building grass roots coalitions? Really? Snopes has been accused of being biased left before. Here, they are justifying outside intervention into the situation in Ferguson, with an insane claim. A grass roots movement, by definition, needs no outside intervention - it springs up from the ground.

                    grass roots
                    noun
                    plural noun: grassroots

                            the most basic level of an activity or organization.
                            "the whole campaign would be conducted at the grass roots"
                            synonyms: popular, of-the-people, bottom-up, nonhierarchical, rank-and-file
                            "a grassroots movement"
                                    ordinary people regarded as the main body of an organization's membership.
                                    "you have lost touch with the grass roots of the party"

                    It's impossible to say how much of the Ferguson thing was actually "grass roots", and how much was astroturfing. I've read accounts of outsiders, I've read accounts of real grass-roots people. Some of the grass roots were complaining about the astroturfers, on more than one occassion. But, apparently, the astro-turfing was funded by Soros, however indirectly.

                    --
                    There is a supply side shortage of pronouns. You will take whatever you are offered.
                    • (Score: 2) by butthurt on Wednesday December 07 2016, @03:08AM

                      by butthurt (6141) on Wednesday December 07 2016, @03:08AM (#438186) Journal

                      That does sound contradictory. Earlier they say:

                      [...] Mr. Soros gave at least $33 million in one year to support already-established groups that emboldened the grass-roots, on-the-ground activists in Ferguson, according to the most recent tax filings of his nonprofit Open Society Foundations.

                      which doesn't sound like an oxymoron. Perhaps the passage you quoted is a poorly-worded restatement of that.

                      They print the claim of a director of Soros' organisation, who said

                      [...] although groups involved in the protests have been recipients of Mr. Soros' grants, they were in no way directed to protest at the behest of Open Society.

                      • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday December 07 2016, @03:21AM

                        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday December 07 2016, @03:21AM (#438190) Homepage Journal

                        [...] although groups involved in the protests have been recipients of Mr. Soros' grants, they were in no way directed to protest at the behest of Open Society.

                        There's that "plausible deniability" thing. No officer of the US Navy ever "directed" me to wound a civlian. But, the day we had to clear a riot demanding entry to the ship, my squad went out on the quay, and moved the riot off of the quay. In the process, some civilians were incidentally wounded. (no fatalities, thank God)

                        All that is needed, is a "gentleman's understanding" that people who participate in approved activities are more likely to be granted money or positions by the organization.

                        --
                        There is a supply side shortage of pronouns. You will take whatever you are offered.
                        • (Score: 2) by butthurt on Wednesday December 07 2016, @11:53PM

                          by butthurt (6141) on Wednesday December 07 2016, @11:53PM (#438555) Journal

                          [...] my squad went out on the quay, and moved the riot off of the quay [...]

                          ...and perhaps the secretary of the navy, the secretary of defence, the president, and the public (your ultimate employers) never knew about your efforts in more detail than the fact that your ship was at a certain port on a certain date, and left on a certain date?

                          Earthjustice say their goals are "to protect people’s health, to preserve magnificent places and wildlife, to advance clean energy, and to combat climate change" (http://earthjustice.org/tags/oil [earthjustice.org]). I would think that that may be specific enough for Mr. Soros; it aligns perfectly with his intention "to undermine and destablize the United States [soylentnews.org]." Earthjustice are a non-profit; if he wrote them a cheque and accompanied it with a note saying "I hope you'll do something about the Dakota Access Pipeline" would that be improper?

                          • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday December 08 2016, @01:15AM

                            by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Thursday December 08 2016, @01:15AM (#438576) Homepage Journal

                            Maybe improper, maybe not. But that sort of detail isn't going to be made public, and I'm not in a position to ever learn about it.

                            --
                            There is a supply side shortage of pronouns. You will take whatever you are offered.
                  • (Score: 2) by butthurt on Thursday December 08 2016, @12:25AM

                    by butthurt (6141) on Thursday December 08 2016, @12:25AM (#438562) Journal

                    I meant to write "Certainly astroturfing is a thing, and from the cursory look I took t̶h̶e̶r̶e̶ it seems there may be evidence that Mr. Soros contributes to groups that do it."

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by VLM on Monday December 05 2016, @04:52PM

      by VLM (445) Subscriber Badge on Monday December 05 2016, @04:52PM (#437242)

      Those same people would be just as willing to change sides to attend a counter-protest if the pay was right.

      They're the same type of people as the private security guards sending attack dogs after peaceful although obnoxious kids and throwing gas grenades. About the only difference is the rentacops can mostly pass a pee test.

      • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Monday December 05 2016, @05:40PM

        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Monday December 05 2016, @05:40PM (#437266) Homepage Journal

        I'd make that +5 insightful, but can only mod one point at a time . . . .

        --
        There is a supply side shortage of pronouns. You will take whatever you are offered.
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 05 2016, @05:43PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 05 2016, @05:43PM (#437272)

          "+1 Insightful" is not "+1 I totally agree with you!". You readily admit to abusing the moderation system.

          • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Monday December 05 2016, @05:48PM

            by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Monday December 05 2016, @05:48PM (#437275) Homepage Journal

            I have readily admitted - yes, I have - that mercenary sumbitches are mercenaries, no matter which side they are working for. You know what? Most people don't understand that. When two hippies meet, they recognize each other as kindred spirits. When two cops meet, they recognize each other. Neither pair understands that the other pair is very much like themselves.

            It is you who is lacking insight, and you refuse to understand insight when it is serve to you on a silver platter. Idiot.

            --
            There is a supply side shortage of pronouns. You will take whatever you are offered.
            • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Scruffy Beard 2 on Monday December 05 2016, @07:51PM

              by Scruffy Beard 2 (6030) on Monday December 05 2016, @07:51PM (#437350)

              I attended an anti-white power rally to counter a white power rally many years ago.

              In reviewing the pictures, I noticed that both sides generally wore similar counter-culture clothing. Generally surplus military fatigues with various badges.

          • (Score: 2) by VLM on Monday December 05 2016, @06:18PM

            by VLM (445) Subscriber Badge on Monday December 05 2016, @06:18PM (#437288)

            "+1 Insightful" is not "+1 I totally agree with you!".

            My original controversial point was all sides are dirtbags, to one level or another, and this was a crystal clear individual example of theoretically opposing sides unified as being outsiders only in it for themselves, in it for the money for example, or for social/street cred.

            I'm sitting here trying to think of a better compare and contrast example from the whole multi-party battle and not having much luck. It really is almost the perfect platonic form of what I don't like about the protests. If anyone can think of a better example then chime in with the actual example itself, not "ur mods sux".

            Apparently some folks have themed the protests as some kind of simplistic star wars good vs evil or Tolkien-esque story or the 60s civil rights movement part two, and there's lots of unhappiness when its pointed out that everyone in the battle on every side is at least somewhat dirty. There is no purely good side in this particular fight.

            • (Score: 2) by mhajicek on Monday December 05 2016, @07:01PM

              by mhajicek (51) on Monday December 05 2016, @07:01PM (#437309)

              Perhaps there is no purely good side, but if you are willing to assault non-violent protesters you are definitely evil.

              --
              The spacelike surfaces of time foliations can have a cusp at the surface of discontinuity. - P. Hajicek
              • (Score: 2) by VLM on Tuesday December 06 2016, @12:59PM

                by VLM (445) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday December 06 2016, @12:59PM (#437642)

                I came up with a good analogy last night that the whole thing is like personnel stationed on the Star Wars Death Star. Some folks did very little wrong, just signed a contract and took some probably minimal paycheck to mop the floors, and there's distinct levels of badness all the way up to Darth Vader and the Emperor. Or another way to put it is there are no good guys in this fight but there are better and worse guys.

                Probably I'd rate the engineers who routed the pipeline as most evil, followed by the attack troop guards.