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http://wardsauto.com/print/technology/new-9-speed-pushes-tech-limit-gm-says
Like the old 6-speed units, which GM refined over the years and expects to continue applying to its vehicles into the near future, the 9-speed was developed through a partnership with crosstown rival Ford.
Both automakers also derive 10-speed variants from the work. Ford brought that gearbox to market recently in the F-150 large pickup, while GM got first dibs on the 9-speed. GM's first application of the 10-speed will be in the '17 Chevy Camaro ZL1, a 640-hp supercharged version of the sports coupe due later this year in the U.S.
[...] In-house logics software inside a 32-bit transmission control module handles all shift events for smooth, precise ratio changes, GM says. It also monitors transmission performance and compensates for wear in parts such as the clutch plate to maintain consistent performance over time.
"This transmission shifts very smoothly, very precisely," Kline says.
The controller is mounted outside the gearbox to reduce packaging and manufacturing complexity, and it pulls vehicle-specific calibration from the cloud to be added to the core program as the car or truck exits the assembly line. It also enables manual shift control and grade logic, GM says.
The 9T50 features a wider 7.6:1 overall ratio, compared with 6.0:1 in its 6-speed predecessor, a deep 4.69 first gear for off-the-line performance and a tall 0.62 top gear for fuel-efficient, low-rpm highway cruising and optimal NVH.
Sixth gear is equivalent to eighth gear on the new transmission, too, so compared with the 6-speed the 9-speed offers two fuel-saving overdrive gears. Seventh gear is the direct-drive gear, while ninth gear is in use up to 52% of the time.
While the article doesn't say, my guess is that the design is also optimized for automatic/robotic assembly — even though the manufacturing plant is in Mexico.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by maxwell demon on Tuesday January 03 2017, @10:18AM
It sounded interesting until I got to this:
When the gear is inserted, you should know exactly which car you are inserting it into, so there's no need to give it the ability to pull from the cloud; a traditional software write should be absolutely sufficient. Preferably through a wired interface. No need to make it vulnerable to remote hacking.
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 3, Funny) by BsAtHome on Tuesday January 03 2017, @11:02AM
Agree.
Your gearbox was unable to confirm its authenticity. You may be traveling with an illegal gearbox. Please turn your car off and on again. R)retry, A)bort, I)gnore. The BCA (Business Car Alliance) has been informed and will conduct an audit as soon as possible to ensure you are compliant with the gearbox EULA.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Kilo110 on Tuesday January 03 2017, @11:13AM
Pay no attention to that. It's just the marketing flunkies trying to stuff as many buzzwords in as they can.
(Score: 2, Touché) by nitehawk214 on Tuesday January 03 2017, @05:27PM
Pay no attention to digital bullshit until it fucks you over.
"Don't you ever miss the days when you used to be nostalgic?" -Loiosh
(Score: 3, Insightful) by TK on Tuesday January 03 2017, @07:21PM
The less fancy version is: the assembler scans a barcode associated with a particular car/set of options, and this loads the presets into a controller on the transmission.
The fleas have smaller fleas, upon their backs to bite them, and those fleas have lesser fleas, and so ad infinitum
(Score: 5, Insightful) by aclarke on Tuesday January 03 2017, @12:01PM
Why is it that every time "the cloud" is mentioned, someone's got to post a boilerplate anti-cloud response? The "cloud is always bad" brigade is missing the point just as badly as the "cloud is always good" lobby.
It's one sentence in a general article. It's not a technical article for software architects. I can think of at least one scenario where from a layperson's perspective, "the cloud" is used where it would make sense. Let's put a bunch of transmission software engineers in an office in Michigan. They're writing code and pushing firmware updates for these transmissions. The transmissions are being installed into, say, 12 different vehicle models across two companies (GM, Ford), in 10 plants in 5 countries. How are these 10 plants supposed to get their software updates? Private jet? What in the world is wrong with the plants pulling updated firmware from a repository in "the cloud"? I'm using quotes around "the cloud" because it might just be a server somewhere that's not actually "the cloud", but that point is lost on most readers.
(Score: 2) by LoRdTAW on Tuesday January 03 2017, @01:05PM
"It's new and I hate it. Now get off my lawn!"
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 03 2017, @05:01PM
Centralized resources and centralized control of data are new things? You must be young, so yeah, get off my lawn!
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday January 03 2017, @01:44PM
How are these 10 plants supposed to get their software updates? Private jet? What in the world is wrong with the plants pulling updated firmware from a repository in "the cloud"?
Private jet is a viable option here, let us note. And the problem, of course, is that you aren't only allowing convenient update for the official maintainers of the code, but another opportunity for various ne'er-do-wells and malware to insert code into working cars.
(Score: 2) by stretch611 on Tuesday January 03 2017, @03:07PM
Why is it that every time "the cloud" is mentioned, someone's got to post a boilerplate anti-cloud response? The "cloud is always bad" brigade is missing the point just as badly as the "cloud is always good" lobby.
When it comes to retail goods, the cloud is almost always a bad thing for consumer rights.
What is stopping it from updating to a bugged release? With the cloud who knows where it does it. At least with a (non-cloud upgraded) car, If I need a firmware update and go to the dealer (or mechanic)[ if the update bugs out, I am somewhere that can fix the car (and hopefully stored a backup first.) What's to stop an update from bricking your car in your garage. (I hope they have the sense not to have it update while in motion.)
Having something that can automatically updates from the cloud can be a security nightmare. Even tech companies can get it wrong... regularly. Do they used encrypted and signed firmware updates? What safeguards consumers against DNS spoofing? What happens when the tech people there forget to renew the domain? Car companies are not known for their robust security... quite the opposite. What makes you think they can deal with this securely when people in the industry have problems?
And the biggest issue it was happens when the company decides to no longer support that car/model or transmission unit? They shut the server down. What happens when you can no longer update? Will it still work at all? If you need to replace the transmission in the future, will the firmware be available? Car companies are not in the practice of open-sourcing their proprietary code... even after it is no longer used. Your fancy car becomes a useless junker, regardless of the shape it is in.
What happens to the gearhead who wants to run an after market firmware (if one is available.) Does the firmware auto update to the factory code? or does it brick?
So yes... adding "cloud" to retail items is bad almost every time. It is almost always an erosion of consumer rights and ownership. It is not difficult to find news stories of apple/google/amazon remotely bricking devices, removing programs, ebooks, or music from devices... even cases where they removed public domain works. Recently they even bricked Samsung Galaxy Note 7s... while it was a safety issue... what is there to prevent them from just forcing you to upgrade? Sound impossible? I guarantee it is many CEO's wet dream... car company or not.
Now with 5 covid vaccine shots/boosters altering my DNA :P
(Score: 2) by EvilSS on Tuesday January 03 2017, @04:09PM
(Score: 2) by gringer on Wednesday January 04 2017, @05:28AM
Why is it that every time "the cloud" is mentioned, someone's got to post a boilerplate anti-cloud response? The "cloud is always bad" brigade is missing the point just as badly as the "cloud is always good" lobby.
Because the concept of "the cloud" is so vague, so nebulous, that people are always going to have different views about it.
Ask me about Sequencing DNA [youtube.com]
(Score: 3, Insightful) by LoRdTAW on Tuesday January 03 2017, @12:51PM
You obviously didn't read this bit:
This is done in factory and is not an OTA push.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 03 2017, @04:05PM
If it requires a manual installation step, how much more difficult it would be to perform the installation from, say, a pendrive instead of having to rely on a cloud service? If it is automatic and done wirelessly, how hard is it to convince the car it needs an update or that it never left the assembly line?
In essence, if manual then involving the cloud is unnecessary at best, and if it is automatic, it is a vector for attack.
(Score: 2) by LoRdTAW on Tuesday January 03 2017, @05:28PM
I'm chalking it up to buzzword soup. Using cloud makes it sound as if they are hip to the cutting edge tech.
(Score: 2) by arslan on Wednesday January 04 2017, @12:31AM
Damnit! There is no cloud where I'm driving, only kangaroos... insensitive American car manufacturers..
(Score: 2) by MostCynical on Tuesday January 03 2017, @12:07PM
with the control module mounted outside, it will be easier to package for different vehicles, but the wiring between the gearbox and controller will be where many future faults will be found.
Also, it says "cloud", but it doesn't say "wirelessly", (and many company PR firms and CxOs call the company's own data centre "the cloud", so that doesn't mean much), so hopefully not adding any additional insecurity..
"I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
(Score: 2) by EvilSS on Tuesday January 03 2017, @01:58PM
The "cloud" is not some wireless always on connection in this case. When the car is built the individual transmission is profiled and that data is stored on a website (thus, "cloud" since all websites are now clouds apparently). When the transmission is serviced and certain parts are replaced (solenoids for example), the tech has to go to the site, enter the unique ID of the transmission, the part being replaced, and download a new custom performance characteristics file to the TCM. And yes, we all hope that site is secure so some rogue nation can't cripple our repaired transmissions.
(Score: 2) by VLM on Tuesday January 03 2017, @02:18PM
That'll also allow fun such as only dealers are able to do transmission service, never a 3rd party or god forbid an end user shade tree mechanic. Also they can run a simple SQL DELETE query on it every year to make sure no one is violating the license by using a transmission older than 8 years, 10 years, 50 years, etc.
(Score: 2) by EvilSS on Tuesday January 03 2017, @02:25PM
(Score: 2) by EvilSS on Tuesday January 03 2017, @01:21PM
The controller is mounted outside the gearbox to reduce packaging and manufacturing complexity, and it pulls vehicle-specific calibration from the cloud to be added to the core program as the car or truck exits the assembly line. It also enables manual shift control and grade logic, GM says.
Most automatics today use an external TCM, this isn't anything groundbreaking. Also the programmable solenoid characteristics (the "cloud" they are talking about here) isn't new either:
Several reprogramming procedures must be performed after replacement of some components on the new 8L90 8-speed transmission available on the 2015 Corvette, Silverado, Sierra, Yukon, Yukon XL, and Escalade. These procedures are covered in detail in the appropriate Service Information. In addition, the reprogramming procedures also will be used on other transmission applications in future GM models.
Solenoid Valve Characterization Reprogramming
Characterization reprogramming is a new programming procedure. If characterization is not completed when required, shift quality can be less than optimal and may cause the customer to return with a shift concern. The solenoids in the 8-speed transmission require unique performance characteristic data in order to function at maximum efficiency. This data is programmed and stored in the vehicle’s Transmission Control Module (TCM). (Fig. 4) When a transmission assembly, TCM, or solenoids are replaced during service, the performance characteristic data for the solenoids must be retrieved from the Techline Information System (TIS) website server (the cloud) and programmed into the TCM.
Source: Reprogramming Procedures for the 8L90 8-Speed Transmission [sandyblogs.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 03 2017, @01:46PM
With a computer controlled transmission providing lots of gear ratios,
Do you make a single stage unit with 9 separate gear sets,
of one with 2 stages of 3 gear sets each?
Not much detail in the article for a nerd's appetite.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by LoRdTAW on Tuesday January 03 2017, @02:33PM
They appear to be dual clutch 9 speeds AMT's with five gears on each clutch (9 forward, 1 reverse). Using a concentric shaft setup, the transmission is actually two automated manual gear boxes each with its own clutch and a shared output. The gears alternate between transmissions so the next gear can be shifted into queue. This is smoother because there is no shift delay waiting for the transmission to move the forks around, the gear is already shifted and you just alternate the clutch.
(Score: 2) by shortscreen on Tuesday January 03 2017, @07:02PM
So it's two gearboxes in one, with nine gear ratios, and beefy enough for a 640hp camaro. I'm assuming the thing must weigh over 250lbs.
(Score: 2) by LoRdTAW on Tuesday January 03 2017, @11:19PM
I'm going to retract my earlier statement, it does not appear to be an AMT but a hydraulic transmission similar to the current 99 kg (218 lbs) 8L90. What confused me is using the term clutch when I usually refer to them as "clutch packs" in hydraulic transmission.
(Score: 2) by VLM on Tuesday January 03 2017, @02:23PM
at some point it'll be cheaper and lighter and more reliable to replace the pile of gears with an alternator, VFD, motor combo. Perhaps it already is better. So its interesting to estimate when they'll give up on adding more gears and wholesale replace the whole antique works with diesel locomotive style drive. Boats were experimenting with electric drive more than a century ago.
My guess is we might see 18 speed car transmissions but we'll never see 27 or 54 speed transmissions, it'll be cheap enough at that point to go electric drive.
(Score: 2) by ledow on Tuesday January 03 2017, @03:56PM
Continuous Variable Transmission.
Been around for decades.
(Score: 2) by VLM on Tuesday January 03 2017, @05:14PM
The problem with CVTs if if I have to pay $7K every 50K to 100K miles I'd rather have an electric car.
Its like all the sudden expense of an electric PLUS you get to burn gas, whoo hoo
(Score: 2) by Nerdfest on Tuesday January 03 2017, @03:09PM
I'm hoping this is more reliable than my friends Fiesta transmission. It's failed every six months in the last three years. They've extended the warranty to 15 years or something, but it's obviously flawed and they can't seem to either get it right or replace it with a different transmission. It's nice the warranty was extended, but it's extremely inconvenient.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 03 2017, @03:50PM
The Fiesta has always been Ford's cheapest crapbox.
It has always fallen apart. I wouldn't judge Ford's better cars by using the Fiesta as a yardstick.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 03 2017, @03:55PM
they put plastic timing components in the late 90's explorers and mountaineers and they do break like you would expect plastic to break inside a hot engine. they have no shame.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Nerdfest on Tuesday January 03 2017, @05:59PM
I would think the way their cheapest car would be the *best* way to measure them.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 03 2017, @09:14PM
Why would you think that? Their cheapest car is going to have their crudest parts. It is going to be manufactured in their cheapest Third World plant. In some cases (not with the Fiesta), the car is just a rebadged import made by a different cheap foreign automaker.
I would like to understand your reasoning.
(Score: 4, Informative) by sjames on Tuesday January 03 2017, @09:59PM
The real measure of someone isn't the best they've ever done, but how low will they go.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 03 2017, @03:24PM
Have infinite gear ratios, but so far have been unreliable for most auto manufacturers. I think Subaru and Nissan are the only ones that don't have problems. GMs CVT transmissions were so bad they didn't last 20k miles, and they stopped using them.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 03 2017, @03:34PM
The reported application for Chevy was in a high performance over 600 horsepower car - this car will also develop substantial torque. There is no CVT I know of that handles high levels of torque which is why you only find them on cars and a few crossover type SUVs. Nothing with a CVT in consumer hands on the road is handling many hundreds of lb-ft of torque.
You won't see CVT on a Camaro of truck anytime soon. Electric drive will probably beat that out.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 03 2017, @04:00PM
CVTs can't handle a decent amount of power, that's why you don't see them on many vehicles with more than 200 HP, or even that much.
(Score: 2) by ledow on Tuesday January 03 2017, @04:06PM
Something I didn't know:
CVT was banned from Formula 1 as it was felt that the best funded team would just win hands-down with one.
Given the driver that Formula 1 is to modern car equipment a few decades after, and that people have been making CVT for the last 100 years, and still include it on models (including things like the Prius), I don't think that we can say it's so obviously unreliable that nobody would touch it.
CVT was also popular on trucks for a long time.
I don't think that it's an inherently unreliable technology, just that we've spent a lot more money and time on standard transmissions than on CVT, because it's just cheaper and easier to take that route.
But if we're getting into fuel efficiency, various and even multiple engine types in the same vehicle, then CVT holds promise still.
(Score: 2) by Rivenaleem on Wednesday January 04 2017, @10:42AM
Something I too didn't know, but really are we surprised anymore, Leonardo da Vinci conceptualized a CVT back in 1490. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuously_variable_transmission#Planetary [wikipedia.org]
(Score: 1) by jrmcferren on Tuesday January 03 2017, @05:47PM
The only thing with the Subarus is the 2010 to 2012 Legacy (and Outback) have issues with the CVT torque converters, they usually fail under warranty so it is an inconvenience more than anything. I unfortunately can't say anything about 2013 and 2014 due to fact that I have a 2012. The replacement torque converter in mine works better than when the car only had a few thousand miles on it (and it's been about 40,000 since replacement) so the replacement should fix it.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 03 2017, @07:04PM
The first time I test drove a Subaru with a CVT I thought the transmission was AFU. It's definitely different if you never drove one before. When I ordered a new Saturn Vue, the only choices in 2004 was a CVT or 5-speed manual. I got the 5-speed, and good thing because the CVTs were breaking down after a few thousand miles.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 03 2017, @04:02PM
when are people going to wake up and demand open source cars? people could fabricate & print parts at home and sell them online. people could assemble and repair their own cars. Or you could just buy them preassembled but get all blueprints, etc in case you wanted to do your own repairs. It could all be much cheaper due to competition. importing wouldn't be necessary. Current car companies are nothing but slaveware peddlers.
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Wednesday January 04 2017, @03:21PM
when are people going to wake up and demand open source cars?
Probably some time after they wake up and demand open-source operating systems for their computers and phones. Which is to say, never, except for a few geeks on sites like this. Sure, it makes perfect sense, but good luck getting the general public to understand or to lift a finger to demand it.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 04 2017, @06:16PM
Be my guest, there is an open source car project -- https://www.osvehicle.com/ [osvehicle.com]
But if you are used to driving a "normal car", this will be quite a step backwards...
(Score: 3, Interesting) by linkdude64 on Tuesday January 03 2017, @05:22PM
Frivolous mechanical complication designed to generate trivial conversation for the sake of advertisement. I want my car to run well and last long, not be "cool" until next year's model comes out, at which point the warranty on several parts will likely have just expired, and the vehicle will begin to fall apart.
He who laughs last, laughs best, and all of the Hondas out there with 300k+ miles already that will likely still be running long past the first of these cars' graves will know that joy, as will their owners and their owners' wallets.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 03 2017, @10:11PM
Honda is no longer the path to maintenance free joy, my friend.
I was a Honda man for decades, but my last Honda (Odyssey) was built with cheap parts that fail early. (My neighbor has one as well with the same exact issues.) The killer is that the scheduled maintenance (forget the maintenance to fix broken stuff, of which there will be a lot) is expensive as well. Honda is coasting on an out of date reputation at this point.
Broken axles, motor mounts, rotors that warp if you use them in heavy rain, can't hold an alignment, interior light bulbs burn out just after chintzy warranty expires (WTF?), engine requires full synthetic oil every 5,000 miles, regular flushes required to hope the weak, undersized, quirky Hondamatic transmissions doesn't give out, and more...
Go Toyota if you must buy Japanese: it's built better and parts are cheaper.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 03 2017, @11:20PM
I have a friend of mine who insisted that Honda was a Chinese made car in a recent argument because they have declined in quality and reputation so bad. We literally had to stop and look it up before the conversation could move on.
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Wednesday January 04 2017, @04:43AM
No, don't get a Toyota. They suck and they're boring. Get a Mazda instead; they're fantastic cars these days, reliable, extremely fuel-efficient (for the power level), and very importantly, fun to drive.
However, I do want to address some of your points about Hondas:
1) full synthetic every 5k miles - I'm pretty sure any decent car these days requires full synthetic, because of fuel efficiency concerns and extremely tight tolerances. My Mazda uses 0W-20, and I don't think that's too unusual now. But are you sure it needs to be changed at 5k miles, or was that what your stealership told you? On mine, I have it set for "flexible", so the infotainment system tells me when to change it by keeping track of the driving conditions. The last time, I changed it at 7500, and it still wasn't at "0%" so I could have gone longer.
2) interior light bulbs burn out - that is weird, but indicates cheap bulbs. But why are you using bulbs at all? You can buy cheap LEDs to fit in there on Ebay for next to nothing (or spend more and get better-quality ones). LEDs look much better anyway, plus they don't burn out so quickly.
3) rotors warping - is this just you, or is this really endemic to the model or brand? Warping rotors were a problem on Hondas 20 years ago when I had an Integra; the main problem was stupid tire shop people overtorquing the lug nuts. I never had any problems, but that was because I always used a torque wrench and tightened them properly as the manual directs, and I never took my car to a tire shop (I brought the wheels in by themselves to change tires). Tire shop personnel do not use torque wrenches, or even the "torque sticks" they're supposed to use. I have a friend who used to work at tire shops and I've heard lots of stories about how the other workers massively overtighten nuts because they "don't need" torque sticks, and even a few stories about wheels falling off after the car pulls out of the shop. It's not Honda's fault that Americans are incompetent and don't care about doing a good job the way Japanese people do.
4) alignment - are you hitting too many potholes?
5) broken axles and motor mounts and failing transmissions, however, sound like real problems.
As for Toyota, the prevailing opinion of those I've seen is similar: they're coasting on their brand name. The last Toyota I drove, a Corolla rental, was absolutely miserable. American rental cars have better driving dynamics, and that's really sad since American cars have traditionally had horrible driving dynamics compared to Japanese cars.
(Score: 1) by toddestan on Thursday January 05 2017, @04:02AM
No, don't get a Mazda. The bodies are garbage and they rust like something built in the 80's. Around here 10-year Mazda will be showing significant rust around the wheels and at the bottom of the doors, and as soon as the rust starts showing the resale value plummets. Meanwhile even GM has managed figured out how to build a car that doesn't rust after 10 years in the salt belt. I wish I could say something nice about Nissan... but I just can't anymore.
I do have to agree about Toyota and Honda, as they both seem to be coasting on their reputation. Though in Honda's case, their automatic transmissions were always fragile. Meanwhile Toyota seems like the next GM. They need to step their game up or they'll find themselves bankrupt in 20 years.
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Thursday January 05 2017, @05:36AM
Mazda's rust problems are in the past, just like Ford's exploding gas tank problems. All Mazda's new cars are winning awards left and right.
I do agree, don't buy a 15 year old Mazda, especially if it was used in a state with snow.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Corelli's A on Tuesday January 03 2017, @06:43PM
How many years, if ever, will it take to sort out the weaknesses? I'm sure many of us have experienced fiascos such as the 4T80E which has a failure-prone solenoid and seal in the TCC circuit. $25 part buried under $3000 of labor.
(Score: 3, Funny) by MrGuy on Tuesday January 03 2017, @07:25PM
Call me back when they go up to 11.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 03 2017, @11:19PM
...is coming from the transmission.