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from the at-least-the-ice-cream-won't-melt dept.
As you probably know, NASA recently announced plans to send a mission to Jupiter's moon Europa. If all goes well, the Europa Clipper will blast off for the world in the 2020s, and orbit the icy moon to discover all its secrets.
And that's great and all, I like Europa just fine. But you know where I'd really like us to go next? Titan.
Titan, as you probably know, is the largest moon orbiting Saturn. In fact, it's the second largest moon in the solar system after Jupiter's Ganymede. It measures 5,190 kilometers across, almost half the diameter of the Earth. This place is big.
It orbits Saturn every 15 hours and 22 days, and like many large moons in the solar system, it's tidally locked to its planet, always showing Saturn one side.
Before NASA's Voyager spacecraft arrived in 1980, astronomers actually thought that Titan was the biggest moon in the solar system. But Voyager showed that it actually has a thick atmosphere, that extends well into space, making the true size of the moon hard to judge.
This atmosphere is one of the most interesting features of Titan. In fact, it's the only moon in the entire solar system with a significant atmosphere. If you could stand on the surface, you would experience about 1.45 times the atmospheric pressure on Earth. In other words, you wouldn't need a pressure suit to wander around the surface of Titan.
That's great news. No pressure suit needed to walk on the surface of Titan, only a rebreather and a wool sweater.
(Score: 2) by Appalbarry on Tuesday March 28 2017, @03:10AM (2 children)
I'm no expert, and am relying on Wikipedia, [wikipedia.org] but "The atmospheric composition in the stratosphere is 98.4% nitrogen ... with the remaining 1.6% composed of mostly of methane (1.4%) and hydrogen (0.1–0.2%).[11] There are trace amounts of other hydrocarbons, such as ethane, diacetylene, methylacetylene, acetylene and propane, and of other gases, such as cyanoacetylene, hydrogen cyanide, carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide, cyanogen, argon and helium."
In practical terms, though you could survive with a rebreather, this is a soup that isn't remotely habitable. I wouldn't even be sure you would want to have a lot of exposed skin, especially since "The average surface temperature on Titan is minus 290 degrees Fahrenheit (minus 179 degrees Celsius)"
(Score: 2) by curunir_wolf on Tuesday March 28 2017, @05:11AM
I am a crackpot
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 28 2017, @05:19AM
Instead of a fuel tank, you have an oxidizer tank. Mix that with the atmosphere, and it is probably just barely suited to running a gas turbine. If not, add a bit more fuel.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Tuesday March 28 2017, @03:20AM
Better be the wool of electric sheep - at the temperatures on Titan, the androids may need some additional active heating.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 28 2017, @03:32AM
I agree, we need better data on the temperature vs pressure relationship from Titan. Specifically, what is the average temperature up in the atmosphere where there is 1 atm pressure. Right now there is only data from one descent by Huygens I believe. Unless the climate is very uniform as on venus, that isn't really enough to get an idea of the average.
(Score: 2) by bzipitidoo on Tuesday March 28 2017, @03:35AM (8 children)
I'd prefer this order for space exploration.
1. Planet 9. Orbiter to Planet 9, soon as it's found, and if it can be sent much faster than New Horizons. If it can't be sent fast and be able to enter orbit, then design it to last 100+ years, send it slow, and send a small fast probe for an early look.
2. Orbiter for Neptune.
3. Orbiter for Uranus.
4, Probe the largest trans-Neptunian objects: Eris, Haumea, Makemake, 2007 OR10, Sedna, Quaoar, Orcus, Varuna, etc. If any are aligned well enough to visit more than one with one probe, do them first.
We may not be quite able to do an orbiter for anything as far away as Planet 9 may be. For it to be slow enough to be able to enter orbit, it'd probably have to be sent on a route that takes decades or even a century or two, and we haven't tried to make probes that can last that long. But Uranus and Neptune are definitely close enough I'm puzzled why they haven't gotten more attention.
(Score: 3, Informative) by takyon on Tuesday March 28 2017, @04:15AM (7 children)
Check the next story when it gets posted in about 20 minutes. You might like what you see.
#1: Engineering a probe to last 100 years is risky. We will probably have to settle for a fast flyby, although if we can get it there fast and somehow insert it into orbit, that would be great. Planet Nine would be many times more massive than Pluto; perhaps that could help make an orbital insertion possible?
If Planet Nine can't be reached soon, we should launch bigger space telescopes. The James Webb Space Telescope is expected to be able to find Planet Nine or image it. Maybe an ATLAST successor could produce a better image. There are other concepts on the table, like using a swarm of mirrors aligned using lasers or something. All of these would require new developments, but launching them will get easier over time (Falcon Heavy et al).
#4: Some of these may only take 15-25 years to reach. Examples:
Eris [wikipedia.org] - 24.66 years
Sedna [wikipedia.org] - 24.48 years
Quaoar [wikipedia.org] - 13.57 years
Makemake [wikipedia.org] - 16 years
Haumea [wikipedia.org] - 14.25 years
Anything close to 15 years is downright reasonable.
Ultimately we should try to cut these travel times by using fusion rockets or EmDrive, conduct flybys of every object, and put orbiters around every object. Bonus points for getting it done for $100-250 million per object, which might be possible with CubeSats.
There's a 2022/2023 observatory that should find a lot more TNOs. I forgot the name.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 28 2017, @03:16PM (2 children)
You're both assuming "Planet 9" exists.
(Score: 2) by takyon on Tuesday March 28 2017, @05:16PM (1 child)
Two New Kuiper Belt Objects Boost the Case for "Planet Nine" [soylentnews.org]
1. The evidence grows as more objects are discovered.
2. Neptune's gravitational perturbation was found before the planet itself was observed.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 28 2017, @08:07PM
(Neptune is really a dwarf planet, because it hasn't cleared Pluto from its orbit.)
(Score: 2) by bzipitidoo on Tuesday March 28 2017, @05:21PM (3 children)
Yes, I like! Plans to send an orbiter to Uranus. James Webb going up at last.
There's even talk outside NASA of how Alpha Centauri could be visited. Make probes extremely small, like about the size of a grain of rice, and propel many of them to 0.25c with Earth based lasers, hoping a few survive the trip and are able to send reports back.
As for colonizing Mars, well, it's one of those ideas that many seem to be wishfully thinking is more possible and practical than is probably the case. There's too much romance around the idea. Probing Alpha Centauri might prove easier than colonizing Mars.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by takyon on Tuesday March 28 2017, @06:12PM (2 children)
Breakthrough Starshot [wikipedia.org] requires technology that doesn't exist yet. The StarChips need to be hit from a significant distance by GW-class laser energy, and the lightsail needs to resist being vaporized by the lasers. I imagine receiving transmissions from the craft will be difficult as well.
We need to think of Mars colonization as an experiment in sustainable habitation. Can we live on any rock without need for resupply? We can grow a few plants, 3D print a few tools, or drink our own recycled urine on the ISS, but the station needs to be periodically boosted and there's no real manufacturing capability. There never will be unless we start bringing asteroids to space stations. On Mars, you are on the ground. Sure, the atmosphere is complete crap, but there is abundant water, minerals, etc. A habitat could be built and expanded without resupply. If you can double the size of a colony without spending an Earth dime, you should be able to do the same on Ceres, Europa, Rhea, the Moon, wherever.
JWST could be the most important instrument of astronomy this side of the century, with the capability to observe Planet Nine and maybe find life on exoplanets.
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(Score: 2) by bzipitidoo on Tuesday March 28 2017, @07:54PM (1 child)
Think of Mars colonization this way. It's a heck of a lot easier to colonize Antarctica. Antarctica's advantages are: breathable atmosphere, much closer to civilization, instant communication, various travel options with the rest of Earth that are far, far cheaper, more sunlight, and plenty of fresh water. But we haven't done it. Why? Not worth the trouble?
(Score: 2) by takyon on Tuesday March 28 2017, @09:15PM
Yes, I've heard the Antarctica argument. I don't like it. Here's why:
http://www.coolantarctica.com/Antarctica%20fact%20file/science/can_you_live_in_antarctica.php [coolantarctica.com]
Under current plans, NASA would send maybe 5 people to Mars, temporarily. They may orbit the planet or land and spend less than a year there. While there is no permanent habitation of Antarctica, we can see that orders of magnitude more people visit or live there than we could expect to send to Mars. Even Musky's most ambitious plans yet call for about 100 settlers to be sent using the Mars Colonial Transporter (sorry, the "Interplanetary Transport System").
There is little incentive to create industry in Antarctica, such as producing plastic and steel there, because it can be done elsewhere cheaply and shipped there. With Mars, it will be cheaper to make things on Mars than to get them shipped from one gravity well to another.
The Antarctic Treaty and its Protocol on Environmental Protection is likely to prohibit industrial scale activity on Antarctica. Unless you have advanced technology that doesn't exist yet, like a replicator, you're not going to be able to produce materials on site. It might be easier to find, locate, and use mineral resources on Mars than at glacial locations in Antarctica, such as the unclaimed portion.
Edit: Here's some more on that:
While there could be similar concerns over industrial activity and environmental protection on Mars, there will probably not be a total ban on mining, and certainly not an enforceable one. If people manage to create settlements on Mars that don't require resupply, they will have the power to govern themselves and live their lives even if Earth decides not to send any more stuff to keep them alive.
People can (relatively speaking) easily come and go from Antarctica, so there is little incentive to live there permanently. You don't have to essentially abandon your family and friends... you do your stint and go back. On Mars, you may be required to commit to stay there for a much longer period of time. Your craft may be one-way (Mars One proposal although Mars One was a joke), or you might experience technical problems that prevent you from safely leaving Mars and returning to Earth. So you should have a plan to live there semi-indefinitely or indefinitely. Even if Earth were willing to fund a rescue mission, it would take months (using current propulsion) to reach you (and they could face the same problems), so you need to produce some food or water (or carry a lot of supplies on the journey there, which doesn't work out given mass requirements).
Antarctica is 14,000,000 km2. Mars is 144,798,500 km2. If you want to live out your libertarian or authoritarian fantasies on Mars, you have much more surface area and volume to work with. The 14 million sq. km. figure is actually much less if you only consider the portion of land not already claimed by a nation.
There are unanswered science questions about Mars that are easily answered about Antarctica. Is there life on Antarctica? Yeah, there [wikipedia.org] is [wikipedia.org].
I'm sure someone can think of more reasons.
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(Score: 3, Interesting) by takyon on Tuesday March 28 2017, @03:52AM (4 children)
Shit line from... Universe Today. Even a lander won't discover all of Europa's secrets. We need to drill baby drill. Enceladus may be an easier target, based on current estimates [soylentnews.org]. But you can imagine that tens of billions of dollars would need to be spent using current and near future technology to make it happen. If an orbiter finds indirect evidence of life on one of the icy moons, maybe a drill will become a top science priority.
Obviously, you don't want to expose much skin on Titan, but Titan suits could be more versatile than Mars suits. But we might as well get used to living indoors, since there is no place other than Earth, Venus, and Titan in our solar system that has a dense atmosphere and isn't a gas giant. There's a possibility of a Planet Nine having some moons, but I'm not sure that the right combo of tidal heating, orbital stability, and dense atmosphere will appear on any of them. Same deal with a binary dwarf planet.
One problem is that we are avoiding contamination of Titan (one of the reasons why Cassini will be crashed into Saturn). Not only is there speculation about methane-based life on the surface, but (here's that list again [wikipedia.org]) there's a possible subsurface water ocean on Titan. So landing humans on Titan could be delayed for years or decades in order to look for life (hopefully) without contaminating the place.
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(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 28 2017, @12:54PM (3 children)
One problem is that we are avoiding contamination of Titan (one of the reasons why Cassini will be crashed into Saturn).
We already risked biological contamination when we landed Huygens on Titan. The reason why Cassini will be sent to burn up in Saturn's atmosphere is so that we don't risk radiological contamination in the case that Cassini crashed on Titan or Enceladus and the onboard RNGs get smashed open.
(Score: 2) by takyon on Tuesday March 28 2017, @05:12PM (1 child)
https://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/grand-finale/overview/ [nasa.gov]
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(Score: 2) by bob_super on Tuesday March 28 2017, @09:57PM
> This will ensure that Cassini cannot contaminate any future studies of habitability and potential life on those moons.
Maybe we should just do the opposite and send known bacteria in our probes.
Land the probe, see how bacteria does: That's your habitability and potential life study right there.
Looking for local life is too complex, and we'll just destroy it eventually, as soon as the right people decide there's something valuable to be exploited, and those darn greenie regulations are a hindrance to profits. Let's just shorten the time to revenue by skipping the useless "being careful" stage.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 28 2017, @08:11PM
A random number generator doesn't need much radioactive material.
(Score: 1) by slap on Tuesday March 28 2017, @03:58AM (2 children)
We can name the mission "Attack on Titan".
What could possibly go wrong?
(Score: 2) by takyon on Tuesday March 28 2017, @04:26AM
The 3d maneuver gear doesn't work in Titan's atmosphere.
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(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 28 2017, @08:49PM
It will involve a lot of boring drama and teenage angst, and we'll never find out anything more about Titan.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Arik on Tuesday March 28 2017, @04:48AM (6 children)
There's no way in hell you're walking around there with "only a rebreather and a wool sweater."
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 28 2017, @05:29AM
It might not be a pressure suit, but your skin will "burn" off from the icy cold if it's not well-covered. It will be a head-to-toe suit of some kind.
(Score: 3, Funny) by GreatAuntAnesthesia on Tuesday March 28 2017, @06:39AM (4 children)
You're saying I should wear a second pair of socks too?
(Score: 3, Funny) by aristarchus on Tuesday March 28 2017, @08:33AM (3 children)
Have you ever wintered in the Yukon? Like that, but with less oxygen. More than two pairs of socks.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 28 2017, @08:24PM (2 children)
Have you ever wintered in Antarctica? Like that, but 100 °C colder and with less oxygen.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 28 2017, @11:28PM (1 child)
But in Antarctica, the sun goes away during the winter, to return in spring.
The sun shines every day on Titan, taunting you with its cold pinprick of light, and the knowledge that it will never get warmer.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 29 2017, @09:18PM
Your prose is anything but prosaic.
(Score: 2) by turgid on Tuesday March 28 2017, @08:28PM (5 children)
Sorry, I couldn't resist.
I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent [wikipedia.org].
(Score: 2, Funny) by WalksOnDirt on Wednesday March 29 2017, @02:48AM (1 child)
I don't know what a ponted stick is. A bridge? A ferry?
(Score: 2) by turgid on Wednesday March 29 2017, @06:37AM
A lysdexic tripo.
I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent [wikipedia.org].
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 29 2017, @01:35PM (2 children)
Relase the tiger!
(Score: 2) by aristarchus on Thursday March 30 2017, @05:12AM (1 child)
Or the 20-ton weight. For those of you scratching your head (hopefully not other miscellaneous body parts), turgid is referring to one of the canonical Monty Python's Flying Circus skits, "Self-defense"? Or was it "Skittles"? A maniac armed with a George Zimmerman? This is why I will not visit Florida. Alligators that can stand their ground. No, just watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U90dnUbZMmM [youtube.com] "Self-defence Against Fresh Fruit" One redeeming quality of English culture, humor.
(Score: 2) by aristarchus on Thursday March 30 2017, @05:19AM
Errata: 16-ton weight. But that is just one, just one! of many ways of stopping the raspberry fiend! Then comes the "release the Tiger. Followed by Gellinite?