SoylentNews is people
SoylentNews
Just days after Lenovo Group Chief Yang Yuanqing hinted that Lenovo may be pulling out of the PC and Server markets in favor of focusing on datacenters and mobile devices, long-time Thinkpad designer and Retro Thinkpad Project Manager David Hill has announced his resignation from the company. Mr. Hill, who had been in charge of the original ThinkPad design in the early 90's and rose to the rank of Vice President of Design at Lenovo, states:
"I want to broaden my view and create the opportunity to do more in the field of design, not less."
The 25th Anniversary "Retro ThinkPad" project, which was in development for over two years and received over 13,000 responses from long-time ThinkPad fans, is still, for the time being, scheduled for an October 5th announcement. Could internal pressures to minimize costs have resulted in Mr. Hill deciding to take his name off the Retro ThinkPad project which he spearheaded for two and a half years?
(Score: 2) by nobu_the_bard on Friday June 30 2017, @05:06PM (25 children)
The old ThinkPads were pretty nice, but they were heavy as can be. Mine, most of the paint wore off, I traveled with it so heavily. It got pretty hot too. It was my first computer I really went onto the internet with regularly though. I went through several of those mouse joystick things.
I don't get the nostalgia though. They weren't so much better than other computers are these days. Yeah, they beat most stuff back then, but if you brought em back today with just some upgrades they'd just be average. I thought people wanted thin and light anymore? Neither of those are good descriptors for the old ThinkPads as far as I remember. It was a long time ago though.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Grishnakh on Friday June 30 2017, @05:11PM (19 children)
Are you one of those people who is a lousy typist and doesn't care what kind of keyboard they use? One of the things so many people liked about the Thinkpad was the keyboard; it was by far the very best of laptop keyboards. Today's shitty "island" keyboards, pioneered by Apple, are simply horrible to use.
The other thing the Thinkpad and other business laptops had going for them was ruggedness. Metal chassis survive falls and bumps far better than cheap plastic ones.
Finally, the trackpoints are only found in business laptops; no consumer machines ever had those.
No, not everyone wants thing and light. Only stupid Apple lovers want that. Thinkpad lovers want machines that are extremely functional and practical (and they aren't such weaklings that one extra pound of weight is a big deal).
(Score: 2) by nobu_the_bard on Friday June 30 2017, @05:27PM (4 children)
Oh I was neutral about the joystick thing. It was okay. Replacing them wasn't so bad once you got used to it. I just really remembered it particularly well for some reason. I do like them better than touchpads, but the fatigue on your hand is higher if you have to use it all day I think.
Man I forgot about keyboards. Now that you mention it I remember having arguments about it. I wish I had some decent keyboards but people always complain I make too much noise, so I get stuck with the cheaper quieter ones.
(Score: 2) by JNCF on Friday June 30 2017, @07:59PM (3 children)
Silent Cherry XM switches are a thing, and there are plenty of keyboards that take them. Even at least one laptop!
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 30 2017, @09:33PM (2 children)
The silent ones, but still tactile via a small bump in the system, are the Cherry MX browns. More silent if you add some rubber o-rings, so they don't "clack" when bottoming down (and IMO, it also reduces the general noise, as the rubber absorbs vibrations).
Blues are noisy and tactile, they have a loose plastic part for extra clacking. Red and brown are silent but provide no physical feedback, they just slide.
Other brands also have different products.
(Score: 2) by driverless on Saturday July 01 2017, @09:25AM (1 child)
Why would you want a silent keyboard? When I'm on my Model M, I want everyone in range to know I'm on my Model M.
(Score: 2) by cafebabe on Saturday July 01 2017, @11:48AM
Do you know that you're audibly broadcasting everything that you type? That includes passwords and personal correspondence.
1702845791×2
(Score: 2) by fishybell on Friday June 30 2017, @06:13PM (1 child)
Only Apple lovers? Really?
I've got an early X1 Carbon, and it's thin and light and a very good reliable machine. I'm aware later versions (especially those without physical mouse buttons) aren't well loved, but I got mine as refurbished unit and it's been nothing but amazing ever since.
I might not have the best laptop keyboard, but it's definitely better than any Apple I've ever had the displeasure of typing on. The fact that it travels extremely well means it beats out most other laptops for me, and thousands of other people.
Thin, light, not an Apple, not even close.
(Score: 2) by driverless on Saturday July 01 2017, @10:00AM
+1. Gen 1 Carbon, before they started messing around with it and randomly adding and removing things in case it made it better. Best ultrabook I've ever used.
(Score: 2) by Nerdfest on Friday June 30 2017, @06:36PM
I have a couple of ThinkPad 520s for work machines, and while the keyboard is good, I think the one on my System76 machine is as good or better (less flex). Trackpad as well. I never did like the nipple mice.
(Score: 2) by darkfeline on Friday June 30 2017, @08:04PM (2 children)
>One of the things so many people liked about the Thinkpad was the keyboard
I like the new keyboards better actually. For one reason or another, they put less strain on my hands. I believe they still have scissor switches, and I don't see any particular disadvantage from the differently shaped keys (maybe the new keys are actually the reason they are easier to type on for me?).
>The other thing the Thinkpad and other business laptops had going for them was ruggedness. Metal chassis survive falls and bumps far better than cheap plastic ones.
Being light doesn't make them less rugged. If anything, less weight means less force when you drop it. I haven't tried destroying my T420, X220, T470, or X1 yet, so I can't say experimentally whether any of them are more or less rugged.
The new chasses aren't cheap plastic, they are Carbon Fiber Reinforced, and the X1 still has a metal chassis. Whether they are more or less rugged, I can't say, but you're clearly setting up a strawman by calling them cheap plastic.
>No, not everyone wants thing and light.
I don't think the newest Thinkpads have reached the level of thin and light for any reasonable person to complain about, unless you mainly use your Thinkpad for weight lifting. On thickness, the T470 is thick enough to accommodate an Ethernet port. On weight, I would gladly buy a Thinkpad with zero weight, so I can suspend it in midair if I need to tie my shoes or something. I agree that negative weight might not be preferable though.
Join the SDF Public Access UNIX System today!
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Friday June 30 2017, @08:12PM
The new chasses aren't cheap plastic, they are Carbon Fiber Reinforced, and the X1 still has a metal chassis. Whether they are more or less rugged, I can't say, but you're clearly setting up a strawman by calling them cheap plastic.
What in the hell are you talking about? I'm talking about "business laptops", which, last time I checked, still includes all those Thinkpads you listed even if some people complain they're lacking compared to their older models. I'm comparing business laptops to non-business (i.e. cheap consumer) laptops. Consumer laptops are made of plastic, not carbon fiber.
I don't think the newest Thinkpads have reached the level of thin and light for any reasonable person to complain about, unless you mainly use your Thinkpad for weight lifting. On thickness, the T470 is thick enough to accommodate an Ethernet port.
Again, what the hell are you talking about? You seem to think I'm comparing old Thinkpads to new Thinkpads. Where did you ever get that idea? "thin and light" isn't epitomized by any Thinkpad, old or new, it's epitomized by Apples, which definitely don't have any Ethernet ports or even room for them.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 01 2017, @01:05AM
>The new chasses aren't cheap plastic, they are Carbon Fiber Reinforced, and the X1 still has a metal chassis. Whether they are more or less rugged, I can't say, but you're clearly setting up a strawman by calling them cheap plastic.
They *are* cheap plastic, at least on some models.
https://i.redd.it/cn8pe9ekv8yy.png [i.redd.it]
This is a matrix of the 2017 model build material. It seems the past three or four iterations, Lenovo has been looking for a replacement of the ABS plastic wrapped over Magnesium alloy rollcage that has been a staple of Thinkpad design since the T60.
Since 2016, they have finally moved on from that cheap greyish/brown plastic (*40 and *50 generations) that showed tremendous wear under normal use after about two weeks. But they are still looking for something cheaper with at least some durability, as the image above shows.
The T470 has a better build quality than the much higher spec'd T470p (based on user reviews). By that metric, it's a complete shitshow at Lenovo right now.
ABS Plastic was *not* a bad thing. Those classic machines that we pine over, the T60/1 frankenpads, were ABS plastic over the magnesium rollcage. They did not show much wear after years of use, which is what kept their resale value high. The ability to survive multiple drops and while being used as a primary computer and looking nice, albeit a little bland, made the brand stand out. The toughest of the lot was the rare 4:3 R61, which was thicker plastic than its T61 counterpart, but still made of the same materials. Anecdotes from various sources claim that they look as good as the day they were new, and are still trucking along ten years later.
It is certainly no strawman to say that modern Thinkpads are still using cheap plastic. But they are also using other materials as well.
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Friday June 30 2017, @08:50PM (7 children)
Louis Rossmann has some really tough thoughts on laptop keyboard design:
Classic Thinkpad vs. modern Lenovo Thinkpad redesign - thoughts. [youtube.com] (2014-06-15)
Thinkpad classic vs Thinkpad new vs Apple laptop - here he really aims some serious critique towards the Lenovo design decisions.
Lenovo's new keyboard & trackpoint are awful and you're never getting your old one back! [youtube.com] (2014-06-29)
Trackpoint buttons return to the Thinkpad - Lenovo listened! [youtube.com] (2015-01-10)
Lenovo Thinkpad redesign; good is **NOT** retro! [youtube.com] (2015-06-26)
Here he's chopping the Thinkpad design team to very small pieces. ;^)
To the Lenovo Thinkpad design team: Stop that f-cking flawed Apple imitation thing and keep what has worked SO good and do some serious design studies, WITH user input.
I like Louis idea of a laptop where the fan won't suck in all the dust and make it stay inside. Keyboard that can be spilled over and the fluid just exit through some other hole. That will withstand being dropped and just get a slight scratch but keep on working.
How far are we from making our own modular laptops using 3D printed shell, modded mini keyboard, touchpad, Raspberry-Pi computer and some standard video panel? (or something along those lines) Previously the interior were filled to the brink because technology used all the space. Now it's so small that there's room to spare and COTS can possibly work as a core laptop part.
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Friday June 30 2017, @09:02PM (4 children)
How far are we from making our own modular laptops using 3D printed shell, modded mini keyboard, touchpad, Raspberry-Pi computer and some standard video panel? (or something along those lines) Previously the interior were filled to the brink because technology used all the space. Now it's so small that there's room to spare and COTS can possibly work as a core laptop part.
We're really far from that I think. I've seen 3D printers in action (I have some at work) and they can't print anything that doesn't look 3D-printed out of a soft plastic. For a serious laptop, you can't 3D-print the chassis because it needs to be made of magnesium, not plastic. It also needs to have an aluminum lid on top IMO. The other big problem is the keyboard; how are you going to get that? That has to be made by some company with significant resources in a factory, just like the classic Thinkpad keyboards were. It's not something a hobbyist can make. But the problem is that no one wants to make high-quality laptop keyboards. Honestly, the video panel is probably the easiest part. Also, an RPi, which impressive, still doesn't compare to a modern laptop in performance. We're a little ways from that, but it's getting closer.
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Saturday July 01 2017, @04:21AM (1 child)
The plastic case could perhaps be outsourced to some plastic-mould-as-you-order the same way you can order circuit boards online these days. The keyboard could either some existing [eaccessibilitywales.org.uk] model where the case is made to fit around it. Or something that maybe.. could be ordered in the same way the case is. Another approach is simply to use some common laptop keyboard replacement part if continuous delivery can be ensured, ie will it be around one year later and still fit the case. And the same procedure for the touchpad.
The RPi seems to be fast enough, not the racer competitor. But many times this isn't needed. And with a small computer there's room for batteries. Power and charging are available with pretty standard chips and boards.
(Score: 2) by cafebabe on Saturday July 01 2017, @01:57PM
According to MagPi magazine [magpi.cc] issue 58, page 14 [raspberrypi.org], laptop and tablet cases are already available from Pi-Top [pi-top.com]. Unfortunately, they are in a similar style to the OLPC XO [wikipedia.org].
1702845791×2
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 01 2017, @09:35AM (1 child)
If we can just gut older larger laptops and us their shells we're not far from our own modular laptops.
* The existing keyboard we like can be read using a microcrontroller http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-a-ThinkPad-keyboard-USB-adapter-with-Arduino/ [instructables.com] Use something like an nrf51888 and make it detachable bluetooth BLE.
* A 15.6 4k eDP screen (mostly shiny unfortunately and non-touch) can be had for $90 delivered LTN156FL02 to retrofit the original. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/15-6-inch-3840-2160-UHD-4K-LTN156FL02-LTN156FL01-LCD-Module-Panel-Repair-Diy-Kit-LED/32802234108.html/ [aliexpress.com]
* RK3399 based board (http://en.t-firefly.com/en/firenow/Firefly_RK3399/Specifications/ [t-firefly.com]) 4GB ddr (a bit low) 32GB eMMC has eDP ribbon for the internal panel, displayport and hdmi for external monitors 4k@60, usb3 that could be used for internal drives.
* plenty of space for a fixed tablet type flat battery to combine with the removable one for extra battery life and so you can swap batteries without needing to search for a power outlet.
We've been waiting for replacements for old 1920x1200 laptops for something like 10 years and when they finally get round to giving us more dots they remove half the keys, move others (and never to the place we've been remapping them for years) and go for thin over extreme battery life. I think they purposefully ship 'broken by design' products because if they actually gave us what we want we wouldn't have to by another for a decade and that's not a viable market in their eyes.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 01 2017, @10:34AM
nrf51822 https://www.aliexpress.com/item/NRF51822-2-4G-Wireless-Module-Wireless-Communication-Module-Bluetooth-module-zigbee-module-DMX512/32726191346.html/ [aliexpress.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 01 2017, @06:46PM
manufacturers are the stupidest of fucks. fuck you, lenovo, you dumb ass bastards. you and the rest of your manufacturer ilk. you common street hookers! all of you think you're so fucking smart but you can't hardly do anything right. smug fucks with no common sense. people wonder why the economy under performs. stupid fucks, that's why.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 02 2017, @08:11AM
There are a couple of DIY/3d printable laptops
* https://www.crowdsupply.com/sutajio-kosagi/novena [crowdsupply.com]
* https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop [crowdsupply.com]
* https://www.pine64.org/?page_id=3707 [pine64.org]
(Score: 2) by krishnoid on Friday June 30 2017, @06:15PM (3 children)
I recall their biggest claim to fame was their outstanding physical durability. Was that overstated?
(Score: 3, Informative) by Grishnakh on Friday June 30 2017, @06:35PM
I don't think so. I think a lot of people just don't understand the appeal of a business laptop; they're not usually specced higher than high-end consumer laptops, and in fact can be quite a bit more conservative. For instance, you can still find VGA ports on many of them (the HP I have here with me has one, and it's less than 2 years old). If you want cutting-edge and high performance, you buy an Alienware or some other such laptop, not a business laptop. Business laptops are meant to be relatively rugged so they can be carried around everywhere, especially on airplanes, and to be reliable because you don't want your laptop crapping out in the middle of an important presentation. They can be a little behind on I/O technologies because conference room projectors frequently are many years old and still use VGA, and you need to be able to bring your laptop and plug into the conference room projector, even if it's old and crappy and doesn't have HDMI. It needs to survive rough handling by idiot TSA personnel, so it'll usually have some kind of metal chassis, like the magnesium used by Dell Latitudes and I think Thinkpads. And because the corporate environment can be rather conservative, you usually won't see any flashing styling on them, just blacks and grays. They'll also usually have docking ports, so you can easily plug it into your docking station at your desk and use a full keyboard/mouse/(dual)monitor.
Anyone who doesn't really care about durability, typing feel, etc. and cares more about thin and light and cutting-edge tech and maximum performance probably won't be well-served by a business laptop.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by mechanicjay on Friday June 30 2017, @06:36PM (1 child)
No, not at all. I worked at a college, where we issued each incoming freshman with a Laptop. Starting in 2004 we started issuing ThinkPads. We had been issuing Compaq business class machines for years, but a huge let down by HP prompted a search for a new Vendor. The Thinkpads were simply amazing from a durability standpoint. Durability started to falter a couple years after the Lenovo acquisition -- They went from tanks to simply armoured vehicles. In other words, still pretty damn good. These things held up to 4 years of college students carting them around and doing unspeakable things to them.
My c. 2003 R40 was finally retired after about 10 years of near-constant use. After 10 years, it finally started to wear out (lots of chassis flex all of a sudden) also the Pentium M and 2GB of RAM simply couldn't keep up anymore.
The c. 2010 t400 I replaced it with...didn't fare so well and I went through like 4 heatsinks before I just gave up on it and "downgraded" to a used 2008 X61....which I'm still using as my primary mobile computing device. Its in my backpack everyday, back and forth to work, on the bike, on the bus, wherever. It just continues to work.
I've tried to sell my Mom on one of these for years and always get back "It's too expensive, I can get a $400 laptop from Walmart!". "Yes, and how much will you spend on $400 laptops in the $10 years that the $1500 ThinkPad will last you?" Sigh...
My VMS box beat up your Windows box.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 30 2017, @06:48PM
How did you replace the battery? Bought the Lenovo battery? Aftermarket batteries are crap - the advertised specs are all fantasy and they probably sat in some warehouse for years before the sale.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 01 2017, @06:38AM
I cannot care less if it is thin and light when I run out of usb slots, or when my otherwise perfectly capable firewire audio card requires an adapter, or when the battery runs out.
What I want from a laptop is
1 autonomy
1 bis connectivity
2 reliability
3 power
4 pretty design
If I want a toy, I get a tablet with a keyboard/shell, which is what laptops have become.