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Big-box arts and crafts retailer Hobby Lobby will surrender some 5,500 artifacts it purchased illegally and pay $3 million after federal prosecutors filed a civil complaint in New York yesterday, reports Dan Whitcomb at Reuters.
The objects are believed to come from Iraq, where they were smuggled into other Middle Eastern countries. In 2010, they were sent to the United States falsely labeled as clay tiles.
[...] The items include 144 cylinder seals, used to roll decorative images onto clay, as well as clay bullae, which were used to create wax tokens to authenticate documents. The majority of the items are cuneiform tablets. Cuneiform is a type of writing developed about 6,000 years ago in what is now southern Iraq, Smithsonian.com's Anne Trubek reports. Over time, the writing, which looks like a series of lines and triangles impressed into palm-size pieces of wet clay, was used for over a dozen ancient languages, much like the Roman alphabet for most European and Romance languages.
So, why was a craft chain buying ancient Iraqi artifacts in the first place? Whitcomb reports that company president Steve Green is the founder of the Museum of the Bible, now under construction in Washington, D.C. He began acquiring artifacts for the museum, including the forfeited items, in 2009.
Also at NYT. DoJ and Hobby Lobby statements.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 07 2017, @12:57PM (21 children)
I guess their company's "deeply held beliefs" and "morals" don't extend to antiquities theft and supporting the black-market trade of antiquities that supports ISIS and other terror groups, as well as local warlords. Fuck Hobby Lobby!
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 07 2017, @01:31PM
"antiquities theft and supporting the black-market trade of antiquities that supports ISIS and other terror groups, as well as local warlords."
antiquities theft? black market trade of antiquities? give me a fucking break. fuck your stupid laws! and your state sponsored terrorists!
(Score: 4, Informative) by ikanreed on Friday July 07 2017, @02:55PM (16 children)
Deeply held beliefs seems to always refer to what you are willing to let other people do in conservative circles.
I mean I'm sure I'm biased because I've come to think all conservatives are human scum with no redeeming features, but every major case has been like "I refuse to bake these people a cake, because they'll take it to a gay wedding" or "My employees might choose to have sex, while choosing not to have children". I've yet to see a case where conservative "deeply held convictions" is something like "being forced to administer an abortion" or "being forced to administrate a gay wedding" or "being forced to have ketchup on eggs". It's always "do your job as normal, but with the knowledge that afterwards someone will be free to make a choice you wouldn't"
(Score: 4, Insightful) by BK on Friday July 07 2017, @04:05PM (15 children)
FTFY.
Regardless of political lean, laws always seem to be made for 'other people'.
...but you HAVE heard of me.
(Score: 3, Flamebait) by ikanreed on Friday July 07 2017, @04:28PM (14 children)
Fuck that, I'll fight for the cases I listed above and others like conscientious objectors(who are real, and don't want to be forced to kill anyone) or Jews/Muslims who don't want to be compelled to eat pork in public prisons/schools/military mess halls, or a host of other cases where someone's being asked to do something that's against their actual beliefs.
I have this completely overwhelming feeling that you cannot, for the life of you, find a left-leaning example that supports you bullshitty "both sides are bad" ideology. Not for lack of left-leaning people wanting to shift the behaviors and attitudes of others: I personally have a shit ton of things I'd like idiots to stop doing. But because there's an intellectual honesty to it that the right will never, ever have. Ever.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 07 2017, @05:03PM (4 children)
You're going about this all wrong. What we need is an awareness campaign making sure that Christians know that if they eat bacon or other pork products, Yahweh will torture them for all eternity in hell and then afterwards throw them into a lake of fire after the white throne judgement. They need to know that name-dropping Jesus doesn't mean that Yahweh is ok with them eating pork. We have to save their souls.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 07 2017, @07:10PM (3 children)
Thou shalt make thee fringes upon the four quarters of thy vesture, wherewith thou coverest thyself. (Deut. 22:11)
(Score: 0, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 07 2017, @08:06PM (2 children)
What version is that?
I get KJV: "Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts, as of woollen and linen together." ASV: "Thou shalt not wear a mingled stuff, wool and linen together." NIV: "Do not wear clothes of wool and linen woven together." MSG: "Don’t wear clothes of mixed fabrics, wool and linen together."
At any rate, this is another important rule, and the soul of every Christian who wears mixed fibers is at risk! I'm glad you pointed that out!
Personally I recommend hemp fiber, which should be in the clear. It's durable, soft, and comfortable. Perhaps that's what Yahweh was going for as well. Christians need to begin wearing clothes made with hemp fiber in addition to avoiding bacon.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 07 2017, @08:55PM
durable, soft, and comfortable
...and really cheap and easy to grow.
...and it will grow damned near anywhere.
...and it improves the soil.
...and USA.gov once encouraged its cultivation.
Hemp for Victory [google.com]
-- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 08 2017, @11:30PM
Oops, that was Deut. 22:12 I quoted. It's the KJV.
(Score: 2) by BK on Friday July 07 2017, @07:05PM (7 children)
You've set the bar so low that I have to try... and in truth, you gave me one:
Righty wants to not bake a cake for someone because his sky people don't like something that might be done with it or by the user.
Lefty wants to compel the school cook to make a different meal because someone's sky people don't like something about the first one.
And another paired example:
Righty wants to take a person's freedom and property and then use the threat of force to compel future compliance because that person didn't obtain the right paperwork and permission before crossing a border.
Lefty wants to take a person's freedom and property and then use the threat of force to compel future compliance because that person didn't obtain the right paperwork and permission before bringing their property (firearm) across a border (NYC & others).
...but you HAVE heard of me.
(Score: 3, Informative) by ikanreed on Friday July 07 2017, @07:27PM (6 children)
Libertarians. Are. The. Worst. About. This.
You don't understand the point of contention at all: right of conscience being used as a cudgel to control others, instead of what it's intended to protect.
Your whine here, literally has nothing to do with what you claimed earlier "both sides" do. And what really galls me more than that is how you're not going to understand that at all. You're going to continue to pout about how the whole world doesn't bend to your broken ideology, not getting that a specific concept was being discussed.
And the worst part is, I'm pretty sure I'd have to completely overturn your whole ideology for you(which we both know won't happen) before you'd consider reflecting on the small, but very important way you were being a disingenuous shit in the earlier post. You will never cop to the mistake/lie/whatever. I don't know how you're going to refuse to understand that, but you're going to refuse to understand it.
(Score: 2) by BK on Friday July 07 2017, @08:06PM (2 children)
Thankfully, I'm not one. Are you?
But I do. Righty and Lefty both want to use their own choices or belief about what is right (conscience) to control / force the behavior of others. Laws are for the other people.
First, you'd need to better understand it; absent that understanding, your prediction seems to be the most likely outcome. Either way, I'm happy to talk about it if you want to try.
...but you HAVE heard of me.
(Score: 2) by ikanreed on Friday July 07 2017, @08:22PM (1 child)
Thinking there is moral necessity that should be codified in: i.e. you can't murder someone, isn't the same thing as saying that you personally have a right of conscience to limit what others may do, since you're tacitly connected to them.
This is neither complicated nor unreasonable.
And fine, maybe this shitty ideology you're outlining is "ancap" or "objectivist" or some other bullshit that is intellectually indistinguishable to me from libertarianism. I will refrain from calling your insane beliefs that specific name.
(Score: 2) by BK on Saturday July 08 2017, @09:15PM
Lots of other things other than moral necessity get codified in law. If you think otherwise, you can begin by explaining the moral necessity of this example [nyt.com]. A few of these [huffingtonpost.com] also seem fall short of moral necessity.
You seem frustrated that I am missing your point, but the truth is, you obscured it a bit. Your first post described fairly well known cases [economist.com] pertaining to the law. Your second post in this thread referred to more obscure [cnsnews.com] issues. I thought you were talking mostly about laws or desired laws. This last post seems to indicate you want to talk about something else.
You mean like this example [washingtontimes.com]? What were we talking about again?
...but you HAVE heard of me.
(Score: 2) by mhajicek on Friday July 07 2017, @11:05PM
Here's a better example (not to detract from your assessment of "conservatives" but to add "liberals" to the pile). Some "liberals" want to prevent some people from expressing their views because some other people might choose to take offense to them.
The spacelike surfaces of time foliations can have a cusp at the surface of discontinuity. - P. Hajicek
(Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday July 08 2017, @12:51AM
Sounds like you have that problem instead. The Right isn't instituting smoking bans, mandatory nutrition listings in restaurants, 55 MPH speed limits, Politically Correct (PC) culture, regulating away incandescent light bulbs and toilets that flush, or trying to start race wars with the pretext of ending racism. There's a lot going on here which you seem to be missing.
Well buttercup, it would need to be a mistake/lie first. Noting obvious counterexamples to your prior arguments don't count.
(Score: 2) by TheGratefulNet on Saturday July 08 2017, @02:08AM
the 'conservative' mind is too entangled with religion; and while they brainwash them at such a young age (making it very hard to untangle their illogic), they will not willingly let go of their sky daddy myth.
various countries have tried, over time, to remove/reduce the influence of religion. it never works. the human mind, for MOST of the population, is too easy to manipulate. we are controlled by fear, and fear is how religion gets its bite on you. it lies about 'comfort' in an afterlife, when there is 0.0% evidence of that being a reality. and yet, people fall for that scam and show no signs of smartening up. some of us have done this, but its a tiny percentage, too small to be any kind of major influence in policy.
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
(Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday July 08 2017, @12:43AM
How about when you wrote [soylentnews.org]:
In other words, you don't have a leg to stand on (maybe someone ate it?) in this argument. I doubt you'd advocate the reallocation of your personal protein in some future year just because you happen to fall above the inevitably falling "edible" threshold of personal finances. It's some other person's protein that needs to be redistributed for the common good.
Funny how often people who have "this completely overwhelming feeling" seem to be deeply hypocritical on the very things that they can't think about.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by bob_super on Friday July 07 2017, @05:48PM (1 child)
Let's not overlook that this black-market trade, which funded ISIS, was for items from tribes which were often not related to the judeo-christian blood lines or faith. They were often just cuneiform tablets from the same period.
The Ars technica article [arstechnica.com] also says that their lawyers warned them about the legality of it in 2010.
"New to it"? If 5500 tablets in, and 7 years after your lawyer provides an opinion is "new", I wouldn't want to buy anything, new or old at HL.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by JoeMerchant on Saturday July 08 2017, @12:23PM
What I wonder is why the corporation is involved in this at all? These kind of artifacts have absolutely nothing to do with the core business that the shareholders presumably invested in. If some employee (or C level officer) of the corporation wants to spend their private money on this stuff, fine, but why in the hell does a chain of stores filled with cheap crap collect ancient artifacts, legal or not?
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 2) by hemocyanin on Friday July 07 2017, @11:35PM
It's reminiscent of a plot device in Snow Crash involving the character L. Bob Rife:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snow_Crash [wikipedia.org]
(Score: 4, Funny) by tonyPick on Friday July 07 2017, @12:59PM (12 children)
Oh yeah, that's convincing. "Haven't we all accidentally smuggled several thousand artefacts?". They try and make it sound like they ticked the wrong delievery box on amazon FFS.
"You shall not steal. You shall not bear false witness. You shall not covet." - Commandments 8,9 and 10: Exodus 20
But, those are near the end of the list. Probably the less important ones. So they get a pass on those, right?
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 07 2017, @02:52PM (4 children)
I guess that means "Thou shall not have insurance provided birth control" and "Thou shall not be gay" are in the first seven Commandments?
(Score: 2) by marcello_dl on Friday July 07 2017, @07:04PM (3 children)
There is also no commandment that say you shall not burn your house or your riches. Or eat more than you need to.
Why? because it is obvious?
Well back in the day, when sons and daughters were literal wealth, homosexuality was a literal disgrace for the family, which was the unit of society.
We can pull a Pasolini and discuss whether homosexuality is like gluttony, a sin whose consequences are not so grave, but we should not be criticizing a bible because it does not reflect the current zeitgeist of a society which is objectively broken (natality, inequality, pollution are measurable).
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 07 2017, @07:52PM
Hmm ... but the 10 Commandments they did list weren't obvious? Nice try but no literal dice.
(Score: 2) by butthurt on Friday July 07 2017, @08:56PM
> [...] natality [...] pollution [...]
Were people in Western societies to adopt biblical principles, they might be less materialistic but birth rates might increase. We do a great deal of damage to the environment just to feed ourselves; adopting an ascetic lifestyle would reduce some kinds of pollution, but we must still eat and drink. A greater population would entail increased fishing and agriculture, and those would increase pollution such as nitrate, nitrogen oxides, pesticides and greenhouse gases (among other harm). I know there's an exhortation against gluttony, but that only goes so far. At some point, a greater population means more food is needed. According to a 2005 study, 40% of the Earth's land area was being used for agriculture.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/12/1209_051209_crops_map.html [nationalgeographic.com]
Malthus (a Christian) observed that human fecundity could easily exceed improvements in human productivity. He wrote:
-- https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/An_Essay_on_the_Principle_of_Population/Chapter_VII [wikisource.org]
Genesis 1:28 has been interpreted as asking us to take care of the Earth and its creatures, but it also asks us to "be fruitful and multiply." Are there passages that anticipate the need to limit our fecundity?
(Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday July 08 2017, @12:56AM
None of which is particularly bad in the developed world. Not really seeing the point of your post.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 07 2017, @05:40PM (1 child)
Great. Now how am I suppose to tile the shower?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 07 2017, @11:15PM
Now[,] how am I suppose[d] to tile the shower?
You weren't actually going to give your money to this company whose ownership treats its employees like serfs. Were you?
How about an employee-owned company? [google.com]
Tile Outlets of America is an ESOP.
-- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 07 2017, @09:28PM (2 children)
Don't forget that this is a company that makes its living importing goods from around the world, and now they're claiming that they were new to all these importation rules and regulations. They also paid five people through seven bank accounts, had the stuff mailed all over the place in the US, and lied on the customs forms as to what was in the packages and their country of origin.
See, just a simple rookie mistake!
(Score: 1, Flamebait) by TheGratefulNet on Saturday July 08 2017, @02:11AM (1 child)
they believe in god.
therefore, they can't be trusted.
(go ahead, mod be down. I know some of you will want to).
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
(Score: 2) by butthurt on Saturday July 08 2017, @07:48AM
Among the allegations I see a claim that packages received by the company
Supposing that that's true, I'd call the actions of the company dishonest. The terms of the settlement strike me as unfavourable toward the company. It's a company which hasn't been shy about pursuing litigation. If they had a good chance of winning, I think they would have declined to settle on such unfavourable terms. Hence I think there's truth in at least some of the government's claims. The claimed actions are, it seems to me, at odds with Christianity's teachings. Perhaps the beliefs espoused by the Green family aren't sincerely held.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Saturday July 08 2017, @12:26PM
Are these historical bibles and artifacts on display at the retail stores, or is this some "other level" of Hobby Lobby that their customers aren't able to access?
Sounds to me like somebody is using the corporation as a shield for their expensive and legally questionable acts.
Also explains a bit of why Hobby Lobby prices seem more aligned with Neimann Marcus and Saks Fifth Avenue than they do Target and Wal-Mart, even while the stores and wares more resemble the latter.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 10 2017, @10:02PM
You know, I'm now sure I buy this line of reasoning. They bought crap in Iraq and they shipped it home. Is it much different from when musicians had instruments confiscated at the boarders because the instrument was made out of taboo materials. They didn't have papers showing the taboo materials were obtained legally, because the instruments were made before such paper work was required? Or they didn't have paper work because a boarder guard decided the instrument (some flutes) as an "agricultural item".
This could be a case of cloak & dagger evil archeologists like the villains in an Indiana Jones film. But given how obscure rules are for importing things, I would never rule out a mistake outright. If someone in customs is gunning for you, they'll get you for something. And Hobby Lobby is a target for some folks.
http://www.npr.org/2014/04/07/300267040/musicians-take-note-your-instrument-may-be-contraband [npr.org]
https://stateimpact.npr.org/texas/2013/01/11/federal-laws-keep-pressure-on-small-instrument-makers/ [npr.org]
http://www.wqxr.org/story/newark-officials-seize-budapest-orchestras-violin-bows/ [wqxr.org]
http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/02/showbiz/musician-instruments-destroyed/index.html [cnn.com]
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Badhedgehog on Friday July 07 2017, @01:28PM
Because almost 30 years working in IT hasn't managed to completely destroy my optimism that humanity as a whole is best dropped into the nearest singularity I thought I'd have a look at "Museum of the Bible" (https://www.museumofthebible.org/) before going off on one. It seems to stop just short of saying the mission is to sell the idea that their particular brand of imaginary sky fairies are better than anyone else's but it doesn't look any more hopeful than that.
The theft is bad, no doubt about it. But peddling unscientific ideas to the impressionable (WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!) is far, far worse. Artefacts can be returned but even version 3.23.4(f) of my patented brain bleach (available from all good on-line shysters) still has a few unfortunate side effects, even if it is 100% effective at removing the errant neurological processing.
Rosie
(Score: 2) by nobu_the_bard on Friday July 07 2017, @01:44PM (2 children)
I was kind of hoping to find out the artifacts had been sold in the store alongside random terrible wicker picture frames and "Man Cave" signs.
I have shopped in a Hobby Lobby before but it is severely lacking; way too much kitschy junk. It's just the only place around here that sells decent sewing supplies since Wal-Mart and the internet put the local specialty stores out of business.
(Score: 2) by mhajicek on Friday July 07 2017, @11:11PM (1 child)
I shopped there once before learning much about their agenda. Fortunately there's a Michael's a few blocks away.
The spacelike surfaces of time foliations can have a cusp at the surface of discontinuity. - P. Hajicek
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 07 2017, @11:35PM
Properly written as Michaels.
Have you considered an employee-owned operation?
Hobby shops [google.com]
Crafts stores [google.com]
-- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 2, Troll) by realDonaldTrump on Friday July 07 2017, @02:29PM
My great VP, Mike Pence, loves to tell me about this museum. Really pops his zipper! Check him out in the vid. www.facebook.com/museumoftheBible/videos/1288010834647205 🇺🇸
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 07 2017, @03:31PM
Like Odyssey Marine Exploration and similar scum.
(Score: 3, Informative) by butthurt on Friday July 07 2017, @04:29PM (2 children)
Smithsonian Magazine leaves out the name of the case, which is something like United States of America v. Approximately Four Hundred Fifty (450) Ancient Cuneiform Tablets et al
or The United States of America v. Approximately Four Hundred Fifty (450) Ancient Cuneiform Tablets; and Approximately Three Thousand (3,000) Ancient-Clay Bullae.
https://www.pacermonitor.com/public/case/21879196/United_States_of_America_v_Approximately_Four_Hundred_Fifty_450_Ancient_Cuneiform_Tablets_et_al [pacermonitor.com] (pay-walled)
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/07/hobby-lobby-smuggled-thousands-of-ancient-artifacts-out-of-iraq/532743/ [theatlantic.com]
(Score: 2) by BK on Friday July 07 2017, @07:17PM (1 child)
So, another case of civil asset forfeiture [reason.com]. Wow.
...but you HAVE heard of me.
(Score: 2) by butthurt on Friday July 07 2017, @09:12PM
Yes. The artefacts were seized by the Customs and Border Protection service, according to the article I linked and according to a press release linked from the Smithsonian Magazine article:
https://www.justice.gov/usao-edny/pr/united-states-files-civil-action-forfeit-thousands-ancient-iraqi-artifacts-imported [justice.gov]
(Score: 2) by shortscreen on Friday July 07 2017, @05:59PM
Oh look, someone finally got in trouble for wrecking Iraq. Who did they forget to bribe?
(Score: 0, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 07 2017, @07:32PM (1 child)
Look, those were going to a nice and secure museum.
Now they will go back to where they came from. They might temporarily go into a museum. Don't kid yourself: they won't stay there.
Best case, they get sold on the black market again. More likely, they are destroyed because they are unislamic.
Here is an awkward thing to ponder. Remember how the Taliban and ISIS use explosives to destroy things that are many thousands of years old? That shit is coming to Egypt. If we want mummies and other ancient Egyptian stuff to survive another century, we need to get it out of the middle east. Given the birth rates and immigration, on a longer time scale this might also apply to the artifacts currently housed in France.
(Score: 2) by butthurt on Friday July 07 2017, @10:14PM
> More likely, they are destroyed because they are unislamic. [...] Remember how the Taliban and ISIS use explosives to destroy things that are many thousands of years old?
That could happen. The Islamic State reportedly destroyed the Mosque of the Prophet Yunus (Jonah), which was an Islamic mosque in Mosul.
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/24/world/iraq-violence/ [cnn.com]
At the museum in Mosul,
-- http://www.cbsnews.com/news/isis-mosul-museum-ruins-iraq-forces-advance/ [cbsnews.com]
> That shit is coming to Egypt.
Citation, please?
> If we want mummies and other ancient Egyptian stuff to survive another century, we need to get it out of the middle east.
Or, perhaps, don't destabilise the Middle East quite so much?
> Given the birth rates and immigration, on a longer time scale this might also apply to the artifacts currently housed in France.
Or the Elgin marbles, perhaps? There might be fewer immigrants if there were fewer people fleeing the Middle East (see my previous suggestion).
The Iraqi government has the option of storing its antiquities outside the country. Were the United States to insist on that, there could be adverse consequences for the U.S.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 07 2017, @07:41PM (1 child)
Flamebait articles like this are always a cheap way to get clicks and get the anti-Christian groupthink going.
I'll check back tomorrow. Maybe.
(Score: 2) by TheGratefulNet on Saturday July 08 2017, @02:13AM
help, help, I'm being represssed!
http://www.whydontyou.org.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/christian.gif [whydontyou.org.uk]
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 08 2017, @08:57AM
Seems fitting.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobby_Lobby#Illegal_importation_of_cultural_property [wikipedia.org]
"The shipments included tablets inscribed with cuneiform writing, which were misrepresented on declarations as being ceramic and clay tile samples, and contained false designations of origin stating that the objects were from Turkey and Israel."