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from the vote-for-the-motion,-or-roko's-basilisk-will-run-you-over dept.
United States House Republicans expect to introduce bills later this week that would bar states from setting their own rules for self-driving cars and take other steps to remove obstacles to putting such vehicles on the road, a spokeswoman said.
The legislative action comes as major automakers are joining forces with auto suppliers and other groups to prod Congress into action.
Last month, a US House of Representatives Energy and Commerce subcommittee held a hearing on a Republican draft package of 14 bills that would allow US regulators to exempt up to 100,000 vehicles a year per manufacturer from federal motor vehicle safety rules that prevent the sale of self-driving vehicles without human controls.
[...] GM, Alphabet Inc., Tesla Inc., and others have been lobbying Congress to pre-empt rules under consideration in California and other states that could limit self-driving vehicle deployment.
As the number of self-driving cars on the road grows, will drivers proceeding on manual game the self-driving algorithms and lead to a ban on non-self-driving cars?
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Tuesday August 08 2017, @04:36AM (5 children)
If federals regulate self-driving cars for states, they should damn'd well be responsible for any extra cost those cars will put into the state budget to keep their circulation safe... like visible road lines or freshly painted, uniform and clean road signs [soylentnews.org]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 08 2017, @12:40PM (4 children)
Also the cost of insurance. It is the driver of the car that is responsible to accidents. Since the the driver is GM, Telsa, Alpahabet,.. they are responsible for insurance and damages of their vehicle.
So the moral question that is asked... Accident and death WILL happen, but does the car place higher value on passenger in the car or person on crosswalk? Either choice it is the "driver" that is pay.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 08 2017, @02:48PM (2 children)
Volvo is one company that has already gone on record that they'll be taking responsibility for any actions caused by their autonomous vehicles. And this is one area where one company will likely result in a rapid domino effect. That translates to effectively free full coverage insurance.
The moral questions are nonstarter. There are technical reasons why, but even on a basic logical level - they aren't cogent. They invariably require you somehow get into a scenario where there's no option, except there is. But only one option. And both are catastrophic. It's absurd. In such scenario there would, without doubt, be numerous other possibilities rather than trying to create this artificial moral dilemma.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 08 2017, @05:53PM (1 child)
yes, and they will, no doubt, use this as bait. once they bribe people into giving away the rest of (what practically speaking equates to) their right to drive, then they are free to control when and where you can drive. that is at least one of the end goals of all this. like they give a shit about how many people die besides the wasted money involved...
need to go to the store for some critical supplies? car: "i'm sorry dave, you're all out of Food Depot Drive Credits. Please reduce your carbon footprint 2% to earn more". dave: "and how the hell am i supposed to do that? I''ve already gotten rid of everything!" car: "Rover is burning $x amount of carbon per month. just saying..."
(Score: 2) by frojack on Tuesday August 08 2017, @07:13PM
Tin foil hat a little tight this morning?
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 08 2017, @08:46PM
I've already explained the solution [knowyourmeme.com] to the trolley problem many times before. Why does this keep coming up?
(Score: 2) by frojack on Tuesday August 08 2017, @04:38AM (1 child)
Just about everything else about automobiles is regulated at the federal level, which is you can drive coast to coast and never have to worry about state regulations suddenly stopping you at a state line for having 6 lugnuts instead of 5.
Nationwide regulations make sense.
However, there's probably a real risk of regulatory capture here if the only agencies you have to load up with your revolving door corporate tools is the Federal DOT. And I have a hunch there is a significant segment of the readership here on SN that would suffer any tyranny to pry the steering wheel out of the hands of humans.
Which way are the rage nerds going to go on this one?
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 2) by dry on Wednesday August 09 2017, @03:25AM
As a Canadian, it seems weird having the feds force this kind of stuff on the States (or Provinces here). Minimum standards, yes, but at least here, the Provinces have some sovereignty and are in charge of motor vehicles. And yes you could be stopped at a provincial border due to differences in things like weight limits though professional drivers should be aware of things like that.
(Score: 1) by terrab0t on Tuesday August 08 2017, @06:08AM (2 children)
There should be permanent rules preventing the sale of self‐driving vehicles with human controls. Human controls imply the manufacturers are providing self‐driving functionality but expecting a human sitting at the controls to remain attentive and handle any problems. That’s an accident waiting to happen.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 08 2017, @01:33PM
> expecting a human sitting at the controls to remain attentive and handle any problems.
Nope, this isn't what seems to be happening for cars that are lower than SAE Level 5 (full autonomy). Instead, the car "decides" in advance whether it can make the trip or not, at the time of route selection. If not, the driver/person has to drive and the self-driving system is inactive (but other driver aids like blind-spot detection and smart cruise control will still work.)
Speculation -- you could break the trip up into segments and the self-driving feature may be able to handle most of them--but it will stop and have you take over for the hard bits.
(Score: 2) by frojack on Tuesday August 08 2017, @07:20PM
No that's simply not true. It simply provides for operating the vehicle in places where computerized driving is either not practical or simply not possible.
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 2) by kazzie on Tuesday August 08 2017, @09:53AM (1 child)
How about Autonomous Legislation instead? Gets itself drafted, ammended and passed without requiring any politicians.
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Tuesday August 08 2017, @04:21PM
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 2) by looorg on Tuesday August 08 2017, @12:00PM (4 children)
Will an autonomous vehicle still require a drivers license? This could have interesting implications. Will the DMV go away? The entire drivers education market will more or less be eliminated and wiped out. Manual driving will, or could become, be a very limited niche segment.
If self-driving becomes the norm then eventually it will probably lead to the ban on non-self driving. After all if it is found that self-driving is safer and better then non-self driving would be a risk and if not out right banned it will probably be squeezed out of the market by just having a giant insurance requirement that will be unsustainable for most people. Non-self driving cars will become a luxury item in the common market. There will still be vehicles that have to have manual control options tho -- law enforcement vehicles comes to mind but also probably more common out in the countryside. But in suburbia and the cities it will just die and go away, there will be no room or need for people to have self-driving-vehicles.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by rondon on Tuesday August 08 2017, @12:56PM (3 children)
I think there are a ton of edge cases that will be incredibly hard to automate, which will mean we have human drivers for a loooooooong time. Few examples off the top of my head:
- Pulling a boat (and putting that boat into the water at a boat ramp)
- Pulling a horse trailer (with incredibly valuable horses inside - some dressage and race horses valued at > $1 million)
- Off road
- Gravel roads
Each of these provides unique challenges that will be much more difficult to program than simply worrying about 4 wheels on a well defined track. The variables involved with simply pulling a trailer that can have different weights... doubt that commuter trucks will ever be totally self driving.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 08 2017, @01:43PM (1 child)
Forget the trailer edge cases, some pickup truck already comes (or has demonstrated) smart reversing that does a "perfect" job of handling the trailer.
The edge case I'm interested in is going out for a drive in the country like Chuck Berry[1]. A self-driving car is unlikely to have any curiosity about what might be found down that little country lane, or understand the concept of "no particular place to go."
[1]
Riding along in my automobile
My baby beside me at the wheel
I stole a kiss at the turn of a mile
My curiosity runnin' wild
Crusin' and playin' the radio
With no particular place to go
Riding along in my automobile
I was anxious to tell her the way I feel
So I told her softly and sincere
And she leaned and whispered in my ear
Cuddlin' more and drivin' slow
With no particular place to go
No particular place to go
So we parked way out on the Kokomo
The night was young and the moon was gold
So we both decided to take a stroll
Can you imagine the way I felt
I couldn't unfasten her safety belt
Ridin' along in my calaboose
Still trying to get her belt a-loose
All the way home I held a grudge
For the safety belt that wouldn't budge
Crusin' and playin' the radio
With no particular place to go
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 08 2017, @08:57PM
I to elude Facebook on the weekends and hop the turbine freight to far outside the Wired. My uncle has a country place that nobody knows about, says it used to be a farm. He preserved for me an old machine for 50-odd years.
Wind
In my hair
Shifting and drifting
Mechanical music
Adrenaline surge
Well-oiled leather
Hot metal and oil
The scented country air
Sunlight on chrome
The blur of the landscape
Every nerve aware
Just have to keep an eye out for those Canyonero drivers.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 08 2017, @11:53PM
Also - drive thru's, parking on lots without lines, detours, accidents, drunk drivers, etc ad nauseum
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 08 2017, @01:39PM (4 children)
I myself am worried about the future. Any self driving car will log ALL your automotive travel down to the minute, and upload it to central corporate datebases over which you have no control. Your every movement will be tracked and recorded even more so than today. You will have far less autonomy over your own life. At least currently with a manual drive car, especially one without a cellular uplink, you can actually go where you want, when you want, and have at least less tracking, or perhaps, none. (This depends on license plate readers, cell phone tower logs, cameras, etc.) Since most newer cars have cellular data uplinks that send god knows what to their corporate masters, I tend to prefer cars manufactured during the 1990's -- that kind of technology was WAY too expensive back then for mass deployment, but I still get to keep electronic fuel injection.
Another note: With a manual drive car, I'm in control. With an autonomous car, the system controls me. I want to drive the car, not have the car drive me.
OnStar was caught not too long ago updating their terms of service to allow themselves to collect and sell your location data any time they wanted, even after your subscription was cancelled. This has been documented.
A Ford executive once stated during a presentation something along the lines of "We know when you're speeding." This statement was later recanted by Ford. This has also been documented. I don't believe their retraction for a second. Furthermore, while I do not have proof, I believe that pretty much every manufacturer is now monitoring driving behavior, and perhaps even the locations of their cars. I believe that all this data is being storing permanently.
I DESPISE the surveilence state. Most people seem to welcome it. Hey, "You have nothing to fear, if you have nothing to hide." Joeseph Goebbels, Reich Minister of Propaganda of Nazi Germany.
So yes, count me in the camp of someone whom will hold onto their self driving cars as long as possible.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 08 2017, @01:46PM (1 child)
Yes, count me in the camp of those who will be holding onto our manual drive cars for as long as possible.
(Proofreading is important!) :)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 08 2017, @02:02PM
The ironic part is in 30 years, he'll probably be correct. Self driving cars will likely go the way of the horseless carriage. "Car" will mean what we'd call a self driving vehicle, but a self driving vehicle will probably be one of those quaint cars you can control manually yourself.
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Tuesday August 08 2017, @04:33PM (1 child)
Cars have to work in incompatible countries (cellular data-wise) and in mountain tunnels, and in the remote arctic, so even if there is a cellular uplink, the car should still work without it, so find it and disable it, or at least the identification module. At worst it's a little SM chip on a daughterboard.
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 09 2017, @04:00AM
Original poster here.
I just looked up the Ford comment, and here's a link to an article:
http://www.businessinsider.com/ford-exec-gps-2014-1#ixzz2puo4Oq5f [businessinsider.com]
The executive was referring to their GPS systems, and thus it must have been an uplink, not just a stand alone black box.
I wasn't thinking about stand alone black boxes in particular when I wrote my comment. At least with those, someone has to manually, physically connect to them in person to get the info. The older the car, the less history they keep (as far as I know.) I also know that some of them are highly proprietary and require special equipment and cooperation from the manufacturer to access at all. (This is based on what little I have read on the subject.)
As for disconnecting the uplink, yeah I think that will work on some cars. But you may have a constant nag on the dashboard, a check engine light, and perhaps even a reduced display. An example of this would be the odometer being replaced with "CHECK ENGINE", or "UPLINK FAILURE", etc, that will not go away unless the uplink is fixed/enabled. Furthermore, the car could simply store all the spy data, and wait until it goes into service. At this time, it may be hard connected for diagnostics, and then it can upload everything.
Also, in the future, they could easily set the car to simply refuse to start if the uplink chip isn't working. (I haven't read anything about this happening right now though.)
Most people don't care about their devices spying on them, so the manufacturers have a big incentive to step it up. That data is worth money, money, money. Plus, a lot of the people making these decisions like control, regardless of the profits or losses. Surveillance is control.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by DeathMonkey on Tuesday August 08 2017, @04:37PM
Gotta love those States-Rights loving Republicans!