More than 40 Catholic institutions are to announce the largest ever faith-based divestment from fossil fuels, on the anniversary of the death of St Francis of Assisi.The sum involved has not been disclosed but the volume of divesting groups is four times higher than a previous church record, and adds to a global divestment movement, led by investors worth $5.5tn.[...] Assisi's mayor, Stefania Proietti – a former climate mitigation professor – told the Guardian: "When we pay attention to the environment, we pay attention to poor people, who are the first victims of climate change."When we invest in fossil fuels, we stray very far from social justice. But when we disinvest and invest in renewable and energy efficiency instead, we can mitigate climate change, create a sustainable new economic deal and, most importantly, help the poor."
More than 40 Catholic institutions are to announce the largest ever faith-based divestment from fossil fuels, on the anniversary of the death of St Francis of Assisi.
The sum involved has not been disclosed but the volume of divesting groups is four times higher than a previous church record, and adds to a global divestment movement, led by investors worth $5.5tn.
[...] Assisi's mayor, Stefania Proietti – a former climate mitigation professor – told the Guardian: "When we pay attention to the environment, we pay attention to poor people, who are the first victims of climate change.
"When we invest in fossil fuels, we stray very far from social justice. But when we disinvest and invest in renewable and energy efficiency instead, we can mitigate climate change, create a sustainable new economic deal and, most importantly, help the poor."
Are they putting their money where their mouth is, or making a smart economic bet?
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Will the church be moving away from sodomizing choir boys with petroleum based lubricants as well?
But of course!They will simply do it rough - what's a little pain when the church is doing the right thing™?
Rejoice, your financial future look better already, the Koch brothers will need to keep you on their payroll longer.
You're shilling for an organization worth billions of dollars, responsible for the covering up the worst crimes against children of the last two centuries, and I'm the one on the payroll?
How many trees does the Pope have to talk about planting for you to give the church a pass for each abuse? Two? Three?
I like this current Pope. I do believe he is a servant of Christ. His comportment, his actions, have been consistent with somebody who's trying to walk humbly before the Lord. I hope he lives to 150.
There is a lot to make up for. The child sexual abuse is a horrid episode, but it's only the latest for the Catholic church. Power, corruption, and abuse are an ubroken throughline from the present all the way back through the Borgias and probably to the very beginning. It's a very different animal from what the church was when the gnostics were still running around.
"It's a very different animal from what the church was when the gnostics were still running around."
Nope, it's the very same monster that exterminated the early Christians while appropriating their identity.
Will you please take off the stained-glass goggles and look at what your religion and your God are trying to do with clear, neutral vision? The guy sounds like quite literally Infinite Hitler. This is not a Godwin; he intends to rule the earth forever, and runs an eternal, inescapable concentration camp full of fear, fire, pain, and torture for nonbelievers...in other words, *for his political prisoners.*
Your God, if it existed, would be the one being I have ever heard of who would deserve the title of Devil-with-a-capital-D. I'm no atheist, but I know evil when I see it.
And that's not even getting into the complete incoherence of the properties this God is said to have in order to *be* God, which conflict both internally and with observable reality. In fact, if this God were real, there wouldn't be *any* observable reality except him and no one to do the observing except him. Think about why: it has to do with the attributes of perfection, self-sufficiency, and divine aseity.
You seem like a good enough person, but this is in spite of your beliefs, not because of them. Buddhism has better ethics, if that's what you're looking for, and all forms of secular humanism are more grounded in reality.
Everyone's journey is different, Azuma. I am a rationalist who came to my faith through a very long journey as a dyed-in-the-wool doubting Thomas. I know God exists because events lined up at a very difficult period in my life in such a way that they could not have done so as random chance. I was trained in quantitative methods as a social scientist, and when you run through the data and pass the statistical tests, you know there's causality in what you're studying. That's what happened for me, in a nutshell.
Before that I had no use for religion. When I read the Bible it sounded like stories written by primitive herdsmen to explain visits from aliens. As a young man I would read the thing like a lawyer, underlining passages and writing in the margins about how this section directly contradicted another section that had immediately preceded it. I would argue with the thing (big surprise, right?). Large tracts of it still read like propaganda to me. Some passages are horrific, like Lot having sex with his daughters or Abraham pimping out his wife to his hosts as part of a blackmail scheme. But somewhere in there there's a deeper presence. I open the book randomly and nearly always find words speaking to me at that point of need in my life. I don't think hermeneutics can sift out exactly what that presence is, because that's yet another human construct on top of human authorship, but for me the presence is there.
That's not your experience, and it's not the experience of many others. My experience is mine alone, and not something I would impose on others or use as a filter to judge others. Good people are good people no matter what their creed.
One last thought: reality is not the absolute you think it is. We even now know that objectively, in part. Confirmation of predictions from quantum mechanics prove reality is a much, much weirder place than our classic view of it is. Maybe what humanity has interpreted as God is like Carl Sagan's story [youtube.com] about how beings in a two-dimensional universe would interpret a visit from a three-dimensional universe; in short, there's more than meets the eye.
Maybe what humanity has interpreted as God is like Carl Sagan's story [youtube.com] about how beings in a two-dimensional universe would interpret a visit from a three-dimensional universe
But that doesn't rhyme in any way with the Christian tenet that God is the prime mover. If He is like that, a higher-level being, than He is neither singular nor prime. It is fine for you (or anyone else) to infer a higher-level plane of existence from the mythology of the Bible, but you cannot reverse the argument and use that theoretical plane as an argument in favor of a Christian God.
Phoenix, you are not a Christian then. You're some kind of vaguely Bible-flavored Deist. And you're giving Yahweh far too much credit. You're also giving the Bible too much credit; OF COURSE it has good stuff in it, it was written over centuries and centuries and something full of entirely bad advice won't survive.
And your God disagrees with "good people are good people no matter what their creed." Did you just not read ANY of my post at all? If you are a Christian or a Muslim, you believe that your God sentences nonbelievers to eternal torment. In fact, most churches would say that you yourself will end up in Hell because the above statement you made is directly contradictory to God's Revealed Word (TM).
Would you care to tell us what these "too good to be a coincidence" events were and how you know, for precisely certain, that they were not caused by any other being, circumstance, or condition?
...you DO realize you're talking to someone who's put, let's see here, nearly 12 years into the study of these things, correct? I can read some of it in the Koine, even.
All of this is completely missing the point. I *was* one of those mystics for a good long time before pulling my head out of my ass, learning some actual logic and philosophy, and testing the base, core concepts of Christianity. It's ridiculous all the way through, and blasphemous too.
I certainly could give you the specifics, but they wouldn't be meaningful to anyone but me because they weren't there, in my skin. Faith journeys are that way: highly personal. It's for that reason i would not try to convince you that you're wrong, that there is a god, and that everything you have experienced is wrong, that you've misperceived it. The things that have happened to you in your life are real and you're an intelligent person who has examined those events from every angle, so the conclusions you have reached are valid. For you.
I sense that you're wanting to prove me wrong, by redefining what i believe as something else to prove that i'm muddled and misguided. I believe you're doing it out of kindness; you think i'm in error and you're trying to help me out. But take a step back for a moment. Would it make sense for me to challenge something very personal about you that you know, that is part of your identity? What if i were to tell you that you're not really a lesbian, that you simply haven't found the right man yet? (I would never do that, BTW, and don't believe any of it, and apologize for its raising your hackles, but i'm using it to make a point) You would tell me to fuck right off. How could i possibly tell you that what you know in your heart is wrong?
Nice false analogy there, buddy. People don't choose their sexual orientation (if we did, EVERY woman would be a lesbian). Religion, while socially influenced, is very much a lifestyle choice.
Nowhere in your posts do you address the actual thrust of my argument, which is 1) Yahweh's supposed attributes are incoherent, 2) but without them a being wouldn't be God, 3) observable reality is incompatible with any personal-being or egoic conception of the Divine, and 4) Yahweh acts like a demon.
And how many damn times do I need to say this? I am not an atheist! I believe there is a God, it just doesn't give a damn what we believe. It's the ultimate "it is" (where you lot go wrong and say it's the ultimate "I am").
I believe you when you say you have a social sciences background. That kind of postmodernist drivel and slimy, weaselly evasion is completely typical for the genre.
in such a way that they could not have done so as random chance. I was trained in quantitative methods as a social scientist
Those two phrases back-to-back really made me chuckle; the second phrase explains the first.
But, Hold on, Pascal!
I know God exists because events lined up at a very difficult period in my life in such a way that they could not have done so as random chance. I was trained in quantitative methods as a social scientist, and when you run through the data and pass the statistical tests, you know there's causality in what you're studying. That's what happened for me, in a nutshell.
Stats, eh? This is not faith, it is insurance. Best to hedge the petrol market, methinks.
Religion piggy backs on top of our mammalian social habits. I would say for most believers the real draw is a community to belong to, and besides there are decent lessons from all major religions. Picking the right ones is the tricky part though, and you're right Buddhism in general is better but still has a lot of its own stuffiness. Humans gotta hume y'know?
"Humanity has accomplished a lot, along with all the infighting and political machinations. I like to think I just help provide a lot of the infrastructure to make that possible. I know everything isn't exactly the way you'd like it, but when you have an issue, all I want you to do is log a helpdesk ticket. Is that really too much to ask?"
This is a real problem. Priests, despite any claims to the contrary, average neither better nor worse than other people. Catholic priests are required to be celibate, which most humans find a real problem. So they naturally look for accessible outlets. And people of any organized group tend to protect other members of that group. Which is why police can often get away with murder.
This is why you should never trust anyone with power. Some people will handle it justly, but others won't. And they will be protected by others of the group that wields the power. Think of it as tribalism in action.