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posted by martyb on Wednesday October 18 2017, @09:18PM   Printer-friendly
from the what-if-nobody-showed-up? dept.

Governor Rick Scott (R) has declared a state of emergency in the county where the University of Florida lay, due to a planned speech by Richard Spencer. According to NPR:

When Hurricane Irma was bearing down on Florida last month, Gov. Rick Scott declared a state of emergency. On Monday, he did the same thing in Alachua County, ahead of a speech by white nationalist Richard Spencer at the University of Florida in Gainesville.

"We live in a country where everyone has the right to voice their opinion, however, we have zero tolerance for violence and public safety is always our number one priority," Scott said in a statement. "This executive order is an additional step to ensure that the University of Florida and the entire community is prepared so everyone can stay safe."

"I find that the threat of a potential emergency is imminent," Scott declared in his executive order, noting that Alachua County Sheriff Sadie Darnell had requested the state's assistance. The order will make it easier for various agencies to coordinate a security plan for Thursday's speech at the university.

[...] No campus group invited Spencer to speak, and the university is not hosting or sponsoring the event. Spencer's group, the National Policy Institute, is paying the university $10,564 for facility rental and security.

And it looks like it could get expensive:

The speech and accompanying protests are also a major expense: The university as well as state and local agencies expect to spend more than $500,000 to provide additional security.

And the University of Florida can't demand that Spencer pay the full cost of protecting him, because of a 1992 U.S. Supreme Court ruling, Forsyth County v. Nationalist Movement.

In that decision, the university explains, "the Court clarified that the government cannot assess a security fee on the speaker based upon the costs of controlling the reaction of potential hostile onlookers or protestors," under legal doctrine known as the "heckler's veto."

Well, that is the cost of free speech in a free country.


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  • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 18 2017, @10:22PM (72 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 18 2017, @10:22PM (#584191)

    Sounds good in theory, but will not work in practice.

    What will happen is that while those protesting the hate mongers stay away, those attracted by the hate mongers will show up and eventually be indoctrinated. Consequently the hate mongers grow stronger.

    A lot of people thought the Nazis would just die out and look how that worked out.

    You must stand up to hate mongers whenever they leave their cockroach nest....

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  • (Score: 4, Interesting) by The Mighty Buzzard on Wednesday October 18 2017, @10:39PM (60 children)

    by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Wednesday October 18 2017, @10:39PM (#584209) Homepage Journal

    You're saying we should go beat the shit out of a bunch of antifa? Man, I think they're authoritarian douchebags but that's too far. Just arrest them for the laws they break.

    --
    My rights don't end where your fear begins.
    • (Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 18 2017, @10:57PM (58 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 18 2017, @10:57PM (#584224)

      It is annoying when you're willfully wrong. Arrest any violent protesters, but heckling a public venue? No one had the right to perfectly undisturbed platforms. False flag on your part, intellectually bankrupt. Except for the rule of law part, that was good.

      • (Score: 4, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Wednesday October 18 2017, @11:10PM (57 children)

        by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Wednesday October 18 2017, @11:10PM (#584234) Homepage Journal

        I'm curious, how many videos of antifa and friends committing violent acts do you need to see to decide they're not peaceful protesters?

        --
        My rights don't end where your fear begins.
        • (Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 19 2017, @12:10AM (7 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 19 2017, @12:10AM (#584266)

          Ah yes, the good ol' thought crime! "THEY WERE THINKING IT! JUST LOOK AT THEIR FACES!"

          We should create a new police unit, since we'll be hunting down people for their premeditated acts I think we should call it "Precrime"!

          How many times are you going to put words into my mouth? How many times are you going to ignore violence from the Right and only crow on about antifa? Ya, that's what I thought.

          • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday October 19 2017, @12:14AM (6 children)

            by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Thursday October 19 2017, @12:14AM (#584270) Homepage Journal

            Thought crime? No, actual crime with video documentation of such. Are you using the same Internet as the rest of us?

            --
            My rights don't end where your fear begins.
            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 19 2017, @03:26AM (5 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 19 2017, @03:26AM (#584351)

              You do realize the context is "governor declares state of emergency" which drastically increases the infringement of individual freedom. Nothing has yet happened. Do you even?

              • (Score: 3, Interesting) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday October 19 2017, @09:51AM (4 children)

                by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Thursday October 19 2017, @09:51AM (#584451) Homepage Journal

                A terrorist organization does not just turn over a new leaf one day and start helping old ladies across the street instead of attacking people and destroying property. Being prepared is nothing but practicality.

                --
                My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 19 2017, @06:42PM (3 children)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 19 2017, @06:42PM (#584723)

                  How quickly you turn your belly up in the air for you masters, and you have the gall to think you're courageously pro-freedom. Right, in some warped attempt to guarantee one man's freedom of speech we must clamp down on the entirety of Alachua County.

                  I've said this many times before, you need therapy and/or pharmaceuticals. There is something wrong with your brain.

                  • (Score: 2) by arcz on Thursday October 19 2017, @06:56PM

                    by arcz (4501) on Thursday October 19 2017, @06:56PM (#584745) Journal

                    Exactly what freedoms are being crushed by having more police around than usual?

                  • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday October 19 2017, @07:52PM (1 child)

                    by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Thursday October 19 2017, @07:52PM (#584814) Journal

                    What he needs is to be on the receiving end of this shit. You know that old saying "A liberal is a conservative who's been jailed on false charges?" Yeah. Uzzard is a very common type among the right wing, the low-caliber sociopath who simply can't understand other peoples' suffering until it happens to him personally.

                    --
                    I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
        • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 19 2017, @02:47AM (48 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 19 2017, @02:47AM (#584340)

          Nazis (neonazis, alt-right, white nationalists, etc,) want Jews, Muslims, POC, LGBTQP people, ‘non-contributing’ disabled people dead just for existing.

          Antifas want Nazis afraid to organize and communicate because they are aware of the above and want those people to be safe. Since the USA has abdicated its responsibility to forcibly prevent such organization and communication, private violence is the ethically correct path until such a time as the state grows a pair.

          It is not “the same thing”. It is not “more hate”. It is defending the world against people who want most of the people in it dead.

          Concern that this violence might be illegal is fake, coming from you. You're worried about victims fighting back, not about their being attacked in the first place.

          • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Mykl on Thursday October 19 2017, @03:33AM

            by Mykl (1112) on Thursday October 19 2017, @03:33AM (#584355)

            So there was this awesome movement that opposed capitalism and the ruling class. It promised a government of the people and for the people, where everyone would receive the help that they needed and contribute what they could. A worker's paradise, a just society for everyone.

            Upon seizing power in 1917, this left-leaning group proceeded to murder all of their political opponents, including their spouses and children, before setting up a brutal dictatorship. In the following years, these idealists proceeded to oppress and enslave their entire country as well as many of their neighbors.

            In my opinion Antifa, if left to their own devices, would follow that very same path. They are not interested in a peaceful and free society - they're just interested in opposing the right using "any means necessary". We've seen where that can lead.

          • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 19 2017, @05:12AM (3 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 19 2017, @05:12AM (#584375)

            Nazis (neonazis, alt-right, white nationalists, etc,) want Jews, Muslims, POC, LGBTQP people, ‘non-contributing’ disabled people dead just for existing.

            #NotAll of the people in those groups support violence against Jews, Muslims, POC, LGBTQP people, and ‘non-contributing’ disabled people which undermines your rationale for using violence against them. Who is in the alt-right again? 30% of everyone who voted for Donald Trump?

            • (Score: 3, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 19 2017, @02:47PM (2 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 19 2017, @02:47PM (#584561)

              So down with antifa yet some Nazis are "good people"? Lol, you alt-nutters are fucked in the head.

              • (Score: 3, Interesting) by arcz on Thursday October 19 2017, @06:53PM

                by arcz (4501) on Thursday October 19 2017, @06:53PM (#584742) Journal

                Don't judge the worth of a man by his speech but by his actions. Neither does one judge the worth of a man by his associations but rather one must judge them as an individual.
                I'd prefer a law abiding Neo-Nazi over a violent Antifa terrorist any day. Both of them advocate violence, but the Antifa are the main ones actually being violent.

              • (Score: 2) by Mykl on Friday October 20 2017, @02:45AM

                by Mykl (1112) on Friday October 20 2017, @02:45AM (#585078)

                So antifa are violent yet some alt-right are "non-violent"?

                FTFY.

          • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday October 19 2017, @09:57AM (26 children)

            by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Thursday October 19 2017, @09:57AM (#584452) Homepage Journal

            No, sweety, you really don't concern me at all. The regressive left are pussies and couldn't scare anyone with even one working testicle. You should concern law enforcement though. Terrorist scumbags are terrorist scumbags, regardless of what they claim as reasons.

            --
            My rights don't end where your fear begins.
            • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Thursday October 19 2017, @11:12PM (25 children)

              by fustakrakich (6150) on Thursday October 19 2017, @11:12PM (#584976) Journal

              regardless of what they claim as reasons.

              Even inciteful propaganda?

              --
              La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
              • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday October 19 2017, @11:41PM (24 children)

                by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Thursday October 19 2017, @11:41PM (#584995) Homepage Journal

                Especially using words alone as justification. Words you don't like are among the least justifiable reasons possible to commit violence.

                --
                My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                • (Score: 2, Insightful) by fustakrakich on Friday October 20 2017, @12:07AM (15 children)

                  by fustakrakich (6150) on Friday October 20 2017, @12:07AM (#585007) Journal

                  Yet incitement remains the chief pretext used to justify censorship

                  --
                  La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 20 2017, @08:12AM (14 children)

                    by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 20 2017, @08:12AM (#585142)

                    You claim that "incitement" is the deceptive excuse for imposing censorship. Government (and those in bed with it) are the only ones forbidden under the Constitution from censoring speech.

                    Given that you wrote that government and its associates are deceptively attempting illegal censorship, what do you propose to do about the problem? If your answer is "vote", please explain how your reasoning that leads you to believe that approach will work when using it over the preceeding generations government power has only grown.

                    • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Saturday October 21 2017, @07:28PM (13 children)

                      by fustakrakich (6150) on Saturday October 21 2017, @07:28PM (#585746) Journal

                      The majority votes for bigger government. Where's the mystery?

                      --
                      La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
                      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 22 2017, @05:56AM (12 children)

                        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 22 2017, @05:56AM (#585880)

                        Given that you wrote that government and its associates are deceptively attempting illegal censorship, what do you propose to do about the problem?

                        The majority votes for bigger government. Where's the mystery?

                        The mystery is how you can reconcile your statement here, that suggests voting to stop illegal government activity doesn't work, with your previous statement [soylentnews.org] that claimed voting was the only answer to the question of what people should do when told to "do something!" to resist.

                        • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Sunday October 22 2017, @12:00PM (11 children)

                          by fustakrakich (6150) on Sunday October 22 2017, @12:00PM (#585935) Journal

                          I never claimed that voting doesn't work. You're just making shit up. You have the government you voted for.

                          --
                          La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
                          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 22 2017, @07:11PM (10 children)

                            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 22 2017, @07:11PM (#586012)

                            Then explain what you meant by "The majority votes for bigger government. Where's the mystery?". The plain language you used indicates that 1. most people vote for bigger and thus more criminal government, and 2. *I* obviously didn't, and therefore voting both does not work for me and also doesn't work to keep government from acting criminally. Did you intend some hidden, coded meaning?

                            • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Sunday October 22 2017, @07:52PM (9 children)

                              by fustakrakich (6150) on Sunday October 22 2017, @07:52PM (#586027) Journal

                              No. And again you continue to make shit up. I never said voting doesn't work. The government you have shows that it works like a charm. It exists in its present form by the voters' choice. Couldn't be more obvious. This "hidden, coded meaning" thing is entirely in your head, serving as nothing but distraction.

                              --
                              La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
                              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @04:44AM (8 children)

                                by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @04:44AM (#586175)

                                It kinda sucks when you have an inconsistent belief and someone points it out to you using your own words bearing your own signature, eh?

                                People followed your "do something!" advice [soylentnews.org] and voted out [soylentnews.org] the establishment republicans during the Tea Party revolution a few years ago. What happened? Voting got us another crop of lying, criminal weasels which only served to expand the power and criminality of government.

                                Because of that, one of your two assertions are wrong: either voting does NOT work as a means to "do something!" to stop illegal actions by government, or voting "works" but still doesn't do anything to stop illegal government actions. Do you care to re-evaluate your positions?

                                • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Monday October 23 2017, @05:05AM (7 children)

                                  by fustakrakich (6150) on Monday October 23 2017, @05:05AM (#586179) Journal

                                  No

                                  --
                                  La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
                                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @06:57AM (6 children)

                                    by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @06:57AM (#586213)

                                    I thought not, since it seems literally incomprehensible for you to even entertain the idea that you could be wrong - even when you are demonstrably shown to be wrong.

                                    For most readers, though, it isn't incomprehensible that you are wrong. It is obvious.

                                    • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Monday October 23 2017, @02:16PM (5 children)

                                      by fustakrakich (6150) on Monday October 23 2017, @02:16PM (#586331) Journal

                                      Sorry, I'm not wrong. You are, making things up in a rather banal fashion with your typical blame passing. Maybe it can't be helped. I'll never know in my lifetime. Whatever, do what you like. I don't mind the attention.

                                      --
                                      La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
                                      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @06:23PM (4 children)

                                        by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 23 2017, @06:23PM (#586472)

                                        There are none so blind as those who refuse to see.

                                        Would you like some more rope?

                                        • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Monday October 23 2017, @10:53PM (3 children)

                                          by fustakrakich (6150) on Monday October 23 2017, @10:53PM (#586629) Journal

                                          There are none so blind as those who refuse to see.

                                          :-) Exactly! Apply that to yourself, enlightenment, and maybe comprehension, shall be yours. Or you can carry on in denial and projection. Do whatever makes you most comfortable.

                                          --
                                          La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
                                          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 24 2017, @12:27AM (2 children)

                                            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 24 2017, @12:27AM (#586664)

                                            I've had more original [soylentnews.org] and honest conversations with cleaning rags

                                            • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Tuesday October 24 2017, @01:02AM (1 child)

                                              by fustakrakich (6150) on Tuesday October 24 2017, @01:02AM (#586670) Journal

                                              Yet you choose waste your time on little ol' me, talking some inane jibber jabber that doesn't relate to what I posted. How strange... Your cleaning rags are missing you

                                              --
                                              La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
                                              • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 24 2017, @07:40AM

                                                by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 24 2017, @07:40AM (#586756)

                                                The fact that you choose not to understand when small words are used to show you that your own statements contradict each other - requiring that at least one of your statements be incorrect - does not change the simple demonstrated fact that at least that one of your two conflicting statements is wrong. Using weak, limp-wristed tricks such as calling that which you do not like "jibber jabber" is something I'd expect to encounter in an insulated little child, and one not very bright.

                                                I am more interested in your past and present environments than you at this point, ones that allowed and possibly even cultivated the laughably dictatorial mindset you exhibit along with your habit of attempting to deem something ludicrous into reality. My current guess has it being something involving government schooling, possibly a day-care.

                • (Score: 2) by urza9814 on Friday October 20 2017, @03:43PM (7 children)

                  by urza9814 (3954) on Friday October 20 2017, @03:43PM (#585267) Journal

                  The US justice system says otherwise:
                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighting_words#United_States [wikipedia.org]

                  If the police claim that words alone justify violence on their part, then they ought to recognize that same attempt at justification from others.

                  • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday October 20 2017, @04:05PM (6 children)

                    by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Friday October 20 2017, @04:05PM (#585279) Homepage Journal

                    The US justice system also says it's perfectly okay for the NSA to spy on citizens without a warrant. They view the Constitution as a suggestion or rough guidelines; I do not.

                    --
                    My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                    • (Score: 2) by urza9814 on Friday October 20 2017, @07:05PM (4 children)

                      by urza9814 (3954) on Friday October 20 2017, @07:05PM (#585377) Journal

                      I agree...but you're the one that was calling for the justice system to take action:

                      No, sweety, you really don't concern me at all. The regressive left are pussies and couldn't scare anyone with even one working testicle. You should concern law enforcement though. Terrorist scumbags are terrorist scumbags, regardless of what they claim as reasons.

                      So, if law enforcement is going to say that words justify violence, and you want them to go after anyone who claims that words justify violence...then they ought to be spending all their time investigating THEMSELVES for terrorism, shouldn't they?

                      Although that probably WOULD be a better use of their time...

                      • (Score: 1, Offtopic) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday October 20 2017, @10:27PM (3 children)

                        by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Friday October 20 2017, @10:27PM (#585459) Homepage Journal

                        You're misunderstanding. Either deliberately or accidentally but you're definitely misunderstanding. Antifa and BAMN do not stick to words. They're happy to crack people in the head with blunt objects, pepper spray people, set things on fire, and worse for the crime of disagreeing with them. If the police know ahead of time that this might be an issue, it behooves them to be on site to make any necessary arrests.

                        --
                        My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                        • (Score: 3, Informative) by urza9814 on Saturday October 21 2017, @05:33PM (2 children)

                          by urza9814 (3954) on Saturday October 21 2017, @05:33PM (#585714) Journal

                          I think you are the one who is not understanding. I'm not saying that Antifa uses only words; I'm saying that Antifa responds to words the same way the police do, yet here you are supporting the police in the same sentence that you criticize Antifa!

                          You say the cops should respond to that violence because words alone do not justify that violence. But those cops themselves claim that words alone CAN justify violence. I don't think the cops are *correct* in that belief, but if you're going to call for them to take action, you have to accept their rules. And their rules are that shutting down extremist rhetoric by any means necessary *is* sometimes justified. It's not "progessives" or "leftists" pushing that belief; it's a very conservative, established idea. It's how humanity has behaved throughout all of recorded history. It's the one idea that Antifa, the KKK, and the US government all agree on. You can't criticize Antifa for sucumbing to these insticts while simultaneously supporting others whose behavior fits the exact same pattern.

                          • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Saturday October 21 2017, @05:43PM (1 child)

                            by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Saturday October 21 2017, @05:43PM (#585723) Homepage Journal

                            Where have you seen me support the policing of speech by anyone, exactly? Like I said, you're misunderstanding.

                            --
                            My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                            • (Score: 2) by aristarchus on Sunday October 22 2017, @10:21PM

                              by aristarchus (2645) on Sunday October 22 2017, @10:21PM (#586075) Journal

                              [02:22:05] Bytram, Fnord666: you gotta be shitting me with the aristarchus sub
                              [02:25:35] how in the fuck did we decide to run a blatant hatchet piece by the NYT, subbed by aristarchus with his own smarmy bullshit thrown in to boot?
                              [02:30:44] we're seriously going to let dipshit paint half the country with his nazi brush?
                              [02:32:12] fuck's sake. there are less than a hundred thousand white supremacists in the entire country of 350+ million. this is some shit i'd expect slate to run not us.
                              [02:57:05] -!- TheMightyBuzzard has quit [Quit: Leaving]

                              Forti et alietum sibi loquitur.

                    • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Saturday October 21 2017, @06:39PM

                      by fustakrakich (6150) on Saturday October 21 2017, @06:39PM (#585736) Journal

                      Is there a difference between "fighting words" and "incitement"? That seemingly singular exception to free speech is still up for grabs.

                      --
                      La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
          • (Score: 2, Disagree) by VLM on Thursday October 19 2017, @01:34PM (12 children)

            by VLM (445) Subscriber Badge on Thursday October 19 2017, @01:34PM (#584530)

            Nazis (neonazis, alt-right, white nationalists, etc,) want Jews, Muslims, POC, LGBTQP people, ‘non-contributing’ disabled people dead just for existing.

            One big problem with the argument is if you let your enemy define you, you end up with ridiculous parodies like the above. And I assume there exist equally and opposite ridiculous parodies of antifa types made by the right.

            Very little of that definition has anything to do with my beliefs or the people I listen to or read (including Spencer, for example) but it is the standard left wing definition to make them look as bad as possible.

            Lets talk about Jews for example. Most of the right wants an ethnic home state for whites because the Jews have an ethnic home state so why can't we? Our culture is taken over by leftists, and they hate white people, so we clearly don't have an ethnic home of our own. Also the Jews get to blabber on about being "gods chosen people" and all that ancient superstition crap, so why isn't a little white supremacy equally tolerated? The NRX people on the far right have a particularly weird outlook on Jews, such that letting them take over culture by writing your sitcoms and news articles is an invasion that must be taken care of like any military psyop invasion, but letting Jews design your nuclear weapons is the nicest thing ever, essentially living here is fine but trying to take over and remake culture in an image of Israel is completely unacceptable, or rephrased again, Israel on the other side of the planet is literally not on my radar, but Israel on my TV is a big problem. From the point of view of the far right people, wanting to visit Israel on the other side of the planet is not the slightest problem at all, but trying to turn the USA into something like "West Israel" is a huge problem to fight against. You see this in the attacks the far right make on Jews, its always against journalist/politician despicable sex criminals, not exactly kristallnacht against the little old accountant down the street like the Germans did decades ago, the moderns have a completely different strategy and outlook and opinion. In stark comparison, the antifa as a general rule side with the Palestinians, and they're the ones who want the Jews dead. More people on the far left want to nuke Israel than on the far right, yet the propaganda is reversed, because there's a lot of Jews in the more moderate left, think of almost all of the communists from the last century, for example. For another example essentially the Democratic party is now Jews, cat ladies, handful of remaining cucks, some FDR-era-elderly, and minorities, therefore the right must by definition be "anti-Jew" which is probably correct WRT normie moderate less-political people (especially after the mostly Jewish neocon movement temporarily screwed over the Republicans until Trump uncucked the R party, mostly). Claiming the far right wants Jews dead for existing is simply ridiculous.

            The claim about euthanasia combines the above, where the modern right doesn't care at all, with a different problem. Lets say an enemy of the USA invaded and took over and got to write the history books. You get one guess how the previous regime's euthanasia programs would be portrayed. Naturally, a doctor not restricting the respiratory system impairing pain killers for a terminally ill cancer patient a couple of times, is going to get rewritten in the history books as a former USA fedral government presidentially endorsed policy of bayoneting millions of crippled children. Its just how propaganda works. What do you think, they're going to be honest, LOL? That mixes with outright lying about modern views to make slander that's unrecognizable from reality.

            This problem of fake names, is why libel and slander laws were seen as necessary for a functioning democracy. It would be interesting to implement those again, would probably help the level of discourse quite a bit. Of course you'd have to arrest like everyone at CNN and MSNBC and numerous newspapers... the left controls most mass media and those media outlets are mere D party propaganda departments as has been proven numerous times in email leaks and so forth. How do you have a functioning democracy in a one party totalitarian authoritarian rule, is a mystery.

            • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 19 2017, @03:02PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 19 2017, @03:02PM (#584570)

              How do you spew such crazy shit when reality is evident for everyone to see? One party in control? You've got some of the worst republicans gutting taxes for you yet you complain? You're insane VLM, your brain is malfunctioning, you have issues, need therapy and probably medication. Seek help.

            • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday October 19 2017, @04:37PM (8 children)

              by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Thursday October 19 2017, @04:37PM (#584649) Journal

              Hey, hey! I JUST got J-Mo off the damn cross and now YOU climb up on it? Shoo, shoo, winter's coming and we need to burn that timber! Take your delusional skull-vomit elsewhere.

              --
              I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
              • (Score: 2) by VLM on Thursday October 19 2017, @07:02PM (7 children)

                by VLM (445) Subscriber Badge on Thursday October 19 2017, @07:02PM (#584759)

                Can I take the ranting and personal attacks as evidence I'm factually correct? Just felt like asking, LOL. Can't unswallow the red pill of course.

                • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday October 19 2017, @07:49PM (6 children)

                  by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Thursday October 19 2017, @07:49PM (#584812) Journal

                  No, you can take it as evidence that you're wrong, since in this case the ranting is factually correct and the personal attacks are well-deserved. But do go on; I know how your kind works. You learn nothing until the flames of Hell burn away your dross.

                  --
                  I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
                  • (Score: 2) by VLM on Thursday October 19 2017, @08:21PM (5 children)

                    by VLM (445) Subscriber Badge on Thursday October 19 2017, @08:21PM (#584840)

                    More global warming alarmism; tired.

                    Have a nice day!

                    • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Friday October 20 2017, @03:35AM (4 children)

                      by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Friday October 20 2017, @03:35AM (#585096) Journal

                      No, sweetie, it's YOUR world that'll be unbearably hot. Try reading for comprehension sometime. I know that's a crime in your culture, but do it for me?

                      --
                      I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
                      • (Score: 1, Troll) by VLM on Friday October 20 2017, @01:13PM (3 children)

                        by VLM (445) Subscriber Badge on Friday October 20 2017, @01:13PM (#585207)

                        Humor is wasted on the left.

                        • (Score: 3, Informative) by Azuma Hazuki on Friday October 20 2017, @04:27PM (2 children)

                          by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Friday October 20 2017, @04:27PM (#585286) Journal

                          You aren't funny, though. I've been to funerals that were funnier than you. Free hint 'cause I'm in a generous mood: saying something sociopathic and then walking it back with "jeez, it was just a joke" doesn't work. You don't fool anyone but yourself.

                          --
                          I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
                          • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 22 2017, @05:59AM (1 child)

                            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 22 2017, @05:59AM (#585882)

                            Sociopathic jokes are still easier on the ears than constant harpy keening.

                            • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Sunday October 22 2017, @03:00PM

                              by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Sunday October 22 2017, @03:00PM (#585960) Journal

                              Cry some more :) Tone trolling, like false patriotism, is the last refuge of the scoundrel. But since you like my voice so much (I'm an alto, not a screeching soprano, that's my sister) I'll make sure to talk riiiiight into your ear next time!

                              --
                              I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
            • (Score: 2) by urza9814 on Friday October 20 2017, @03:46PM (1 child)

              by urza9814 (3954) on Friday October 20 2017, @03:46PM (#585269) Journal

              Lets talk about Jews for example. Most of the right wants an ethnic home state for whites because the Jews have an ethnic home state so why can't we? Our culture is taken over by leftists, and they hate white people, so we clearly don't have an ethnic home of our own. Also the Jews get to blabber on about being "gods chosen people" and all that ancient superstition crap, so why isn't a little white supremacy equally tolerated?

              ...so your logic is, essentially: "Two wrongs DO make a right"?

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 22 2017, @06:04AM

                by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 22 2017, @06:04AM (#585883)

                So you're saying that using freedom of association to create a place that turns out to be a home state for the ethnic Yahudym is a wrong?

                Or are you the enlightened soul who has opened up his home and hearth to all and currently has half a dozen drifters sleeping in your living room?

          • (Score: 4, Interesting) by arcz on Thursday October 19 2017, @06:49PM (2 children)

            by arcz (4501) on Thursday October 19 2017, @06:49PM (#584732) Journal

            When people say that violence is an ethical response to prevent a conjectured, speculative future, my answer to that is that you've been fundamentally corrupted.
            Violence is never an acceptable response based on mere speculation. Furthermore, history shows us that ideas that "need suppression" are often correct. Incorrect ideas usually do not spread widely. The doctrine of counter speech is useful here, not violence.
            The anonymous coward above me appears to be a terrorist-sympathizer and/or shill.

            • (Score: 2, Troll) by http on Friday October 20 2017, @06:11PM (1 child)

              by http (1920) on Friday October 20 2017, @06:11PM (#585353)

              It's not "mere speculation". It's an easily acquired sense of history.

              I've said it before [soylentnews.org], but it bears repeating, that the communication patterns prior to genocide, and various other hate crimes, follow a consistent pattern. It's not mystic prophecy to see it happening and make predictions.

              And reading the news today, it turns out that AC was 100% correct, because guess what! After the Spencer talk, these assholes thought would be just peachy to fire a gun at a crowd [nbc-2.com] that they viewed as "not like us". And in a not at all surprising move, the shooter openly espouses the racist beliefs at the heart of american white supremacy in an interview. [washingtonpost.com] With the Washington Post. Not exactly shooting the shit over beer and barbeque. His lawyer must be facepalming so hard he's sniffing his elbow.

              Still think counter-speech alone is useful against those who are intent on normalizing the murder of "not like us"?

              --
              I browse at -1 when I have mod points. It's unsettling.
              • (Score: 2) by arcz on Monday October 30 2017, @09:35PM

                by arcz (4501) on Monday October 30 2017, @09:35PM (#589703) Journal

                You honestly think that it's better to go after the speaker than the people who react violently?

                He isn't responsible for people who act violently. Especially if he doesn't suggest violence.

    • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 19 2017, @08:13AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 19 2017, @08:13AM (#584418)

      And he huffed, and puffed, and blew away another straw man.

  • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 18 2017, @10:58PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 18 2017, @10:58PM (#584225)

    If I show up saying the earth is flat, and you prevent me to speak with vandalism, some people might think the conspiracy is real.
    You gotta tell me "oh the earth is flat? then draw a map of it that takes into account the flight time between places, or maybe you think all airline pilots are part of the conspiracy?" or something like that.

  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by khallow on Wednesday October 18 2017, @11:59PM (7 children)

    by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday October 18 2017, @11:59PM (#584258) Journal

    What will happen is that while those protesting the hate mongers stay away, those attracted by the hate mongers will show up and eventually be indoctrinated.

    You know, if high schools and colleges did their job rather than indoctrinate students in bulk, we wouldn't have that problem (at least not to a degree that was threatening to society). But one of the problems with indoctrination is once you've created a pseudo-educational product that can be indoctrinated in a way you like, it can also be indoctrinated in a way you don't like.

    For example, a certain Vidkun Quisling [wikipedia.org] of Norway was a die hard communist after getting the religion in 1918 during his exposure to the Communists at the start of the Russian Civil War. In 1928, the USSR blew him off during a Norwegian attempt to help with the Ukraine famine (the infamous Holodomor [wikipedia.org]). Rather than grown up and develop some sort of sensible political beliefs, Quisling shortly after fell hard for Hitler and Nazism, culminating in his appointment as head of the puppet government following the Nazi conquest of Norway in 1940 and ending ignominiously with his execution by firing squad in 1945.

    Another such example to consider is Dick Morris [wikipedia.org] who ran Clinton's reelection campaign in 1996 until fired for letting a prostitute listen in on his conversations with the president. He then switched sides, managing a couple of Republican campaigns (as well as a fair number of foreign campaigns) and becoming a pundit for Fox News and other outlets since 2000. Currently, he seems vaguely aligned with the alt-right camp.

    Moving on, a third example is who apparently has joined the alt-right movement. Here [thedailybeast.com], libertarians are blamed as a "pipeline" to the alt-right. A different take [nationalreview.com] notes that the Occupy Wall Street movement has also contributed. The latter story attributes this to "marginal movements attract marginal people".

    My view is that whatever the case, there's a bunch of people hopping from one belief system to another, often without any sort of intellectual connection between the systems. A better education system won't eliminate this problem, but it can reduce the number of gullible and/or intellectual shapeshifters who seem to be all over crazy belief systems like white supremacy and such.

    And a key to education is to allow such beliefs a fair airing so that they may shoot themselves in the foot as best they can and the grievances that feed these belief systems can be exposed and addressed.

    • (Score: 2) by rylyeh on Thursday October 19 2017, @12:20AM

      by rylyeh (6726) <{kadath} {at} {gmail.com}> on Thursday October 19 2017, @12:20AM (#584277)

      Yes.

      --
      "a vast crenulate shell wherein rode the grey and awful form of primal Nodens, Lord of the Great Abyss."
    • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 19 2017, @01:33AM (4 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 19 2017, @01:33AM (#584318)

      Quisling [...] was a die hard communist [...] in 1918

      Well, apparently, he mistook Leninism for what Marx called Communism (commune-ism).

      In 1928

      Stalin took power in 1924 when Lenin died.
      If you think that Lenin was an Authoritarian (and, boy, was he ever), take a look at what a Totalitarian Stalin was.

      Communism is an extension of Socialism, with Socialism being empowerment of The Workers.
      Ask The Workers of the USSR or North Korea if they felt/feel empowered under a top-down Authoritarian government.

      WRT "communist", the Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea still isn't "democratic".
      -Calling- yourself something doesn't make it so.

      Quisling shortly after fell hard for Hitler and Nazism

      The phrase "true colors" applies at this point--if not before.

      ...but I'm sure that you have a point--besides the one at the top of your head.

      -- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]

      • (Score: 5, Interesting) by Arik on Thursday October 19 2017, @07:07AM (3 children)

        by Arik (4543) on Thursday October 19 2017, @07:07AM (#584405) Journal
        "Communism is an extension of Socialism, with Socialism being empowerment of The Workers."

        Words drained of blood, pinned on a page for display, with no life left in them.

        How, precisely, do you "empower the Workers?" Who, precisely, are "the Workers?"

        I mean it sounds great, of course, the people that do the work should be empowered, err, whatever that means, and non-workers? Who are they? What's their excuse?

        In reality, EVERY SINGLE TIME this has been implemented it's been a horrible bloodbath. Stalin. Mao. Pol Pot. The Kims etc.

        In reality, this is the oldest scam. The original.

        Oh, it's gotten much bigger and more wordy and more complicated and more prestigious as time has gone on. But it's still roughly the same game that was played in the stone age.

        You split everyone up into two sides. This is called 'dialectic.' It doesn't exactly matter how you split them up, light and dark, tall and short, whatever. What matters is that having done so, you can make a convincing argument to 'your' side that they should be much better off, and that the reason they aren't much better off is that the other group are snakes who steal from them, who hold them down, who oppress them and backstab them etc.

        Once you get that idea across, of course, humans tend to move pretty inexorably towards the idea of "let's kill these snakes and take our stuff back!"

        Now maybe you just wanted their stuff, and if so, this is one way to grab your share of it for sure. But maybe you're really evil and you don't even care about the stuff, even more opportunity in this for you. But either way, eventually, say you finally manage to wipe out the other. That's what you've been working for all this time but when it happens suddenly you realize this ruins everything. But the solution is easy too. You just divide the group again.

        Traitors. Fifth columnists. Backsliders.

        See the devils in the details. Empower the workers. But how, and who are the workers, and who are the nonworkers? Who decides?

        Someone has to decide, and once we have a decider, we have a tyranny. Someone, a person or a committee, will decide who is a non-worker and who is a worker. It will take all the power of the non-workers, and it will hold it in trust for the workers. Should any worker disagree with the arrangement, he or she can become a non-worker and be dealt with accordingly. All the pretty words are only props for the con.

        Take that stone age con into the industrial age and the outcome is as predictable as it is tragic. It doesn't matter whether your dialectic is between bourgeois and prole, or between aryan and non-aryan. Nazism and Communism are not opposites, they are close cousins. The portrayal of each other as opposites is a ruse that both implicitly preserve because both benefit from it. Each uses the other as a bogy man to motivate their supporters, and ultimately each worships power, not truth.

        https://archive.org/stream/AleksandrSolzhenitsynTheGulagArchipelago/Aleksandr_Solzhenitsyn_The_Gulag_Archipelago_djvu.txt

        --
        If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 19 2017, @06:53PM (2 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 19 2017, @06:53PM (#584741)

          Slight nitpick

          In reality, EVERY SINGLE TIME this has been implemented it's been a horrible bloodbath. Stalin. Mao. Pol Pot. The Kims etc.

          Almost correct, but we generally deprive NK of any kind of status such as evil. Instead, end it with Venezuela. Observe.

          OMG Socialism! Hitler! Stalin! Mao! Pol Pot! Venezuela!

          See, two syllables max per chant beat until the very end where a four syllable word makes a very good coda. The problem with "the Kims" is that "the" is not stressed, so you have this awkward thing where you have to stress the second syllable, which completely destroys the solid rhythm from "Hitler" through "Pol Pot." That doesn't work for chants, and it also clashes with the other names since they have emphasis on the first syllable.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 19 2017, @10:36PM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 19 2017, @10:36PM (#584954)

            ...and a major rebuttal:
            Top-down is NOT Socialism.
            It is the antithesis.

            Again: Calling your thing by a name that is completely inappropriate doesn't magically make your thing into that thing.

            Example: USA claims to be a Democracy, yet the desires of supermajorities of USAians are routinely ignored by their gov't.

            -- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]

            • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday October 19 2017, @10:52PM

              by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Thursday October 19 2017, @10:52PM (#584964) Homepage Journal

              Again: Calling your thing by a name that is completely inappropriate doesn't magically make your thing into that thing.

              Agreed. Fully. There does come a point where every instance of a thing being called Thing ever put into practice changes the meaning of the word though. It offends my sensibilities but language does evolve if you don't put your foot down.

              --
              My rights don't end where your fear begins.
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 19 2017, @06:30PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 19 2017, @06:30PM (#584710)

      My view is that whatever the case, there's a bunch of people hopping from one belief system to another, often without any sort of intellectual connection between the systems. A better education system won't eliminate this problem, but it can reduce the number of gullible and/or intellectual shapeshifters who seem to be all over crazy belief systems like white supremacy and such.

      This reminds me of a news report a few weeks ago saying something to the effect of "ha, ha, lots of people believe these two contradictory things."

      I think this hopping between disconnected belief systems is merely a "bring me a different rock" [blogspot.com] phenomenon. These are people who think the status quo isn't working, but don't know how or why. So they are trying "something else," and keep trying something else until they find one which does improve their lot in life.

      If Communism will get them more money, then sure. If Fascism will, then sure. If liberalism will, then sure. If free market trade will, then sure. If mercantilism will, then sure.

      The consistency between their swinging positions is, "the status quo is 'bad.' Somebody make it better."

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 19 2017, @03:03AM

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 19 2017, @03:03AM (#584345)

    Richard Spencer is not standing on stage as a magician popping Nazis out of his ass. This is not a spawning pit. If you honestly believe your neighbors, friends, or just people in your community will align themselves with an ideology you simply can not live with, you can thus not live in their community. In that case, as is your freedom in this country, you should move elsewhere. If moving elsewhere isn't an option due to the size of this (from your perspective) newly-spawned demographic, then war is the only solution left by reality. However, with their current supporters numbering less than a 1% of this nation, there's absolutely no cause or justification for war at this time.

    You can't stop people from thinking and making up their own minds, confrontation should only come afterwards, and usually in our civil society we are able to do so in a verbal format. People have a right to their own mind and self-determination, and if you don't think so you have no place championing how the rights of others are violated in any shape way or form.

  • (Score: 2) by Arik on Thursday October 19 2017, @06:34AM

    by Arik (4543) on Thursday October 19 2017, @06:34AM (#584400) Journal
    "Sounds good in theory, but will not work in practice."

    You write as though these things have not been tested!

    Read! There was something called the 20th century, not so long ago.

    "A lot of people thought the Nazis would just die out and look how that worked out."

    Like I said, you clearly have some reading to do. Nazis (and Fascists in a very similar fashion) came to prominence in large part by effectively opposing Communists in the streets. History teaches the exact opposite of what you think.
    --
    If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?