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from the still-would-be-throwing-them-away dept.
NASA could use an engine developed by Blue Origin instead of the four RL-10 engines currently used by the Space Launch System (SLS):
[One] problem with legacy hardware, built by traditional contractors such as Orbital ATK and Aerojet Rocketdyne, is that it's expensive. And while NASA has not released per-flight estimates of the expendable SLS rocket's cost, conservative estimates peg it at $1.5 to $2.5 billion per launch. The cost is so high that it effectively precludes more than one to two SLS launches per year.
[...] [The RL-10] engines, manufactured by Aerojet Rocketdyne, are also costly. (Ars understands that NASA paid an average of $17 million for each RL-10 engine for the maiden Exploration Upper Stage vehicle). So in October, to power the EUS, the space agency issued a request for information to the aerospace community for "a low cost drop-in replacement engine to minimize program cost." According to the document, the initial set of four engines would be needed in mid-2023 to prepare for the third flight of the SLS rocket, known as Exploration Mission-3.
Then, after an extension of the deadline for responses beyond mid-November, NASA revised the RFI on December 1. The revised document no longer seeks a "drop-in replacement" for the RL-10 engine, rather it asks for a "low-cost replacement engine." Although this seems like a subtle change, sources within the aerospace industry indicated to Ars that it is significant. According to NASA, it was done to increase the number of responses.
[...] That would probably include Blue Origin's BE-3U engine, which the company plans to use for its upper stage on the New Glenn heavy lift rocket. This is a modified version of the BE-3 engine that powers the New Shepard rocket, which has now flown successfully seven times. Blue Origin has previously marketed the BE-3U to Orbital ATK for its Next Generation Launch System, which is looking for an upper stage engine. A single BE-3U provides about 120,000 pounds of thrust, which exceeds the 100,000 pounds of thrust provided by four RL-10 engines.
Just cancel SLS and give that money to SpaceX, Blue Origin, or anybody willing to launch competitively.
Related: Maiden Flight of the Space Launch System Delayed to 2019
First SLS Mission Will be Unmanned
Commercial Space Companies Want More Money From NASA
Trump Space Adviser: Mars "Too Ambitious" and SLS is a Strategic National Asset
Boeing CEO Says His Company Will Carry Humans to Mars Before SpaceX
President Trump Signs Space Policy Directive 1
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Monday December 18 2017, @02:46PM (3 children)
Depending on a person's level of sophistication, it's not really all that subtle a difference. In the first instance, Nasa was looking for an engine meeting all the same specifications, ie, "drop-in". In the latter instance, they are willing to shitcan their specifications, and are willing to consider any engine capable of accomplishing the mission. They save a zillion dollars if the new engines don't have to match physical dimensions, match existing plumbing, etc, etc, etc.
Want me to remodel your old delapidated house? It's gonna cost big money. Want me to just rebuild your old ramshackle dive? I can do that a helluva lot cheaper, and guarantee better results.
“I have become friends with many school shooters” - Tampon Tim Walz
(Score: 2) by bob_super on Monday December 18 2017, @05:39PM (2 children)
> Want me to remodel your old delapidated house? It's gonna cost big money.
> Want me to just rebuild your old ramshackle dive? I can do that a helluva lot cheaper
The more precise parallel would be that the new cooking range doesn't have to be the exact dimensions of the old one, it will be worth it even if we have to get some guys to adjust the countertops, electrical and gas pipes after all.
Since we throw away the range and the countertop after every meal instead of designing them to be washable, the threat of losing their cash cow could convince the current range supplier to lower their price...
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Monday December 18 2017, @06:10PM (1 child)
You nailed it, bob_super. I couldn't stretch my mind far enough to consider throwing away the range and countertop after each use, but you nailed it.
“I have become friends with many school shooters” - Tampon Tim Walz
(Score: 2) by bob_super on Monday December 18 2017, @06:59PM
In their defense, except for that moment when they used the $500M/use non-stick pan, throwing away the range and countertop is what they've always done.
Some kid in the neighborhood claims you can reuse stuff, but since his newfangled "cleanable" kitchen blew up a few times, and the boss wants us to keep using our reliable disposable kitchens, it's hard to change minds. Nobody ever got fired for buying Boeing, you know.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday December 18 2017, @02:56PM (2 children)
It's just so unfair! How will our poor downtrodden aerospace companies survive if the flow from the public teat is reduced?
Reduce costs? Very unreasonable indeed!
The SLS engines are EXACTLY the right thing. Just what we should be using. It is based on the SSME (space shuttle main engine). It is the best of both worlds. Take a very expensive re-usable engine, and put it on an expendable launcher. How can you possibly beat that for top revenue earner?
Don't put a mindless tool of corporations in the white house; vote ChatGPT for 2024!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 18 2017, @03:02PM (1 child)
How can you possibly beat that for top revenue earner?
Easy, just keep moving the goal post so you can study the thing indefinitely and never actually have to make it work.
This is optimal both for cash flow to industry and hang around till retirement for the NASA 'engineers'.
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Monday December 18 2017, @05:17PM
NASA actually gets some stuff done now and then, especially when projects are smaller and can be completed within one Presidential Administration's lifetime. The big projects just go one forever without making any progress.
Where you really see this a lot is with military contracts.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 18 2017, @03:32PM (1 child)
Don't know about the physical size of these engines, but the modular SpaceX engine is (iirc) about 170,000 lbs of thrust. Modular because it has a computer(s) on the engine -- connects to the main rocket system with a network cable, some power cables and of course fuel/oxidizer plumbing.
When I had the short tour a few years back, their production line was spitting out an engine nearly every day (something like 200/year?) Each engine was on a pallet and the pallets were shifted to the next assembly station every day(?) They could probably spare a few for NASA...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 18 2017, @03:45PM
X uses a different fuel?
(Score: 2) by Tara Li on Monday December 18 2017, @03:55PM (1 child)
Looks like 190,000 lb of thrust... Might be suitable.
(Score: 2) by takyon on Monday December 18 2017, @04:16PM
Or the upcoming BE-4 [arstechnica.com] which is set to be more powerful than SpaceX's Merlin or Raptor.
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(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 18 2017, @04:14PM
So... SLS block 1 uses a grand total of 1 of those RL-10s. Block 2 uses 4. Let's assume that $17 million price is correct, and they get the new engines for free. That's a cost savings of $17m (Block 1) or $68m (Block2) at maximum. So from $1.5 to $2.5 billion per launch it drops to $1.432 to $2.432 billion. Woo-hoo.
Of course, the new engines aren't free, so it's not even that, but what's an extra few million among lobbyists?
(Score: 5, Interesting) by khallow on Monday December 18 2017, @04:48PM (6 children)
There are other safety issues. When you light up a solid rocket, it usually stays lit till it burns out. Also the problem that fireballs resulting from break up of a solid rocket motor are larger and hotter than their liquid-fueled equivalents. Meaning a beefier (and higher acceleration) escape system (launch abort system or LAS in the nomenclature) needs to be used in order for astronauts to survive such accidents during launch.
The final problem is that solid rocket motors are less efficient. They tend to have decent thrust-mass ratios (which are important), but terrible mass fractions (meaning you need a higher fraction of propellant to empty mass) to get the same level of delta-v.
Liquid-fueled boosters (particularly, with LOX/kerosene propellant) would neatly bypass a large number of big problems. But it means less profit for the Orbital-ATK cookie monster who will makes the current SRMs.
For example, Wikipedia says the mass of a fully fueled [wikipedia.org] first stage of a block one vehicle is almost 1000 metric tons (979 metric tons) to put 70 tons in space. Most of that mass is propellant with 85 metric tons of support structure and plumbing. Most of the rest is solid rocket propellant. The Shuttle SRBs are 590 metric tons. These are going to be about 25% larger (with some slight reduction in dead mass), so maybe 700-750 metric tons or so, just due to the SRMs (the rest is fluffier due to the use of liquid hydrogen in place of kerosene as fuel).
Sorry, it's a vehicle with very poor first stage specifications due to the insistence on solid propellant and LOX/liquid hydrogen. They could instead use LOX/kerosene for all of the rockets and get similar thrust-weight and better specific impulse (better mass fractions). They also wouldn't need to build a new crawler or hope the VAB never gets destroyed in an SRM-caused accident.
As an aside, if they're shopping around for a cheaper first stage rocket engine now, then they aren't going to launch in 2019. Expect further delays.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by takyon on Monday December 18 2017, @04:59PM (1 child)
Actually, it's pretty much guaranteed to slip to the middle of 2020. From a December 2019 launch date, so it was barely hanging in there. So we should begin thinking about how it could slip into 2021-2022 (and hopefully get cancelled entirely).
SLS rocket advancing, but its launch date may slip to 2020 [arstechnica.com]
SLS managers rally the troops to avoid EM-1 slip into 2020 [nasaspaceflight.com]
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(Score: 2, Insightful) by khallow on Monday December 18 2017, @06:07PM
Else we'll get very expensive projects which will "suck the oxygen out of the room". It's the Space Shuttle all over again.
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Monday December 18 2017, @05:36PM (1 child)
I thought the whole point of using SRBs was to save money, because solid rockets are really cheap, and an inexpensive way of providing a lot of thrust, even if the mass fraction is poor, as long as you don't need to throttle it. So for this reason, I can see why they used them on the Space Shuttle, just for the initial launch to get the vehicle off the ground and up to speed, and then jettisoning them. However, using overly complex and expensive SSMEs burning LH2 seems to negate the cost advantages.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by khallow on Monday December 18 2017, @06:04PM
That's not the first time that has happened in an aerospace project. That Congress went gung-ho on this project despite the cost savings not matching the cost losses indicates, yet again, that the primary purpose wasn't to save any money.
Moving on, currently, they're looking at building, for the block 2, four liquid-fueled rocket engines anyway. So why not just build more of those rocket engines (say with their own copy of the first stage), and do away with that unnecessary logistics and operational complexity (Well, aside from the pork ecosystem, that is)? That's what Delta IV Heavy and Falcon Heavy did.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday December 18 2017, @06:05PM (1 child)
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday December 18 2017, @06:09PM