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posted by Fnord666 on Thursday January 11 2018, @10:11PM   Printer-friendly
from the what's-the-catch dept.

Walmart is boosting minimum pay across all of its stores and handing out bonuses. The CEO says that it's thanks to tax reform:

Wal-Mart Stores Inc. is boosting its starting hourly wage to $11 and delivering bonuses to employees, capitalizing on the U.S. tax overhaul to stay competitive in a tightening labor market.

The increase takes effect next month and will cost $300 million on top of wage hikes that were already planned, the world's largest retailer said Thursday. The one-time bonus of up to $1,000 is based on seniority and will amount to an additional $400 million. The company is also expanding its maternity and parental leave policy and adding an adoption benefit.

"Tax reform gives us the opportunity to be more competitive globally and to accelerate plans for the U.S.," Chief Executive Officer Doug McMillon said in the statement.

The move comes three years after Wal-Mart last announced it was raising wages, spending $1 billion in 2015 to lift starting hourly pay to $9 and then to $10 for most workers the following year. The increase cut into profit and was criticized by some longer-tenured employees as unfair to them. Since then, many states have enacted minimum wage laws, meaning that a "sizable group" of its 4,700 U.S. stores already pay $11 an hour, according to spokesman Kory Lundberg.

Walmart is expanding a "Scan & Go" program from 50 to 150 stores. "Scan & Go" would allow customers to use a smartphone app to scan items and then walk out of the store with them. Kroger is experimenting with a similar "Scan, Bag, Go" program. These are seen as a response to Amazon, which has been trialing delivery of fresh foods and same-day deliveries. Amazon revealed an "Amazon Go" concept brick-and-mortar store in 2016, with no cashiers in sight.

Maybe Walmart's big plan is to give better pay to a dwindling amount of employees.

CEO letter to employees. Also at CNBC and USA Today.

Related: Walmart Wants to Deliver Groceries Directly Into Your Fridge
Walmart to Deploy Shelf-Scanning Robots at 50 Stores
Walmart is Raising Prices Online to Increase in-Store Traffic


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  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Justin Case on Thursday January 11 2018, @11:27PM (69 children)

    by Justin Case (4239) on Thursday January 11 2018, @11:27PM (#621174) Journal

    Social Programs provide it with undervalued labor.

    This is probably not a very effective point to make with those who think the Social Programs are immoral and should be eliminated.

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  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by JoeMerchant on Friday January 12 2018, @12:08AM (64 children)

    by JoeMerchant (3937) on Friday January 12 2018, @12:08AM (#621189)

    Same point, different perspective: if you eliminate the social programs, WalMart's wages are going to have to double in order to provide them with workers who are healthy enough to do the job. You can't smile and welcome people to WalMart if you're starving to death or dealing with nightly homelessness/exposure.

    --
    🌻🌻 [google.com]
    • (Score: 3, Interesting) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Friday January 12 2018, @12:26AM (1 child)

      by MichaelDavidCrawford (2339) Subscriber Badge <mdcrawford@gmail.com> on Friday January 12 2018, @12:26AM (#621198) Homepage Journal

      San Jose State University professors are sleeping on the street these days.

      During the subprime crisis I was walking through a bad part of town quite late at night. A woman approached me, toting a large suitcase and wearing a formal evening gown. She asked if I could give her five dollars. I did.

      Had I known then that there was an all-night restaurant nearby I would have bought her dinner.

      --
      Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
      • (Score: 4, Informative) by NotSanguine on Friday January 12 2018, @04:43AM

        by NotSanguine (285) <NotSanguineNO@SPAMSoylentNews.Org> on Friday January 12 2018, @04:43AM (#621258) Homepage Journal

        San Jose State University professors are sleeping on the street these days.

        During the subprime crisis I was walking through a bad part of town quite late at night. A woman approached me, toting a large suitcase and wearing a formal evening gown. She asked if I could give her five dollars. I did.

        Had I known then that there was an all-night restaurant nearby I would have bought her dinner.

        I saw an article in the San Jose Mercury News (sorry, I've searched for it and have been unable to find it) back in 2000 that profiled several full time San Jose public school teachers who were sleeping in homeless shelters because they couldn't afford rents in San Jose.

        Disgusting.

        --
        No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
    • (Score: 1, Flamebait) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday January 12 2018, @05:01AM (58 children)

      by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Friday January 12 2018, @05:01AM (#621261) Homepage Journal

      Good. Any commie fucktard want to explain to me how precisely keeping wages shit with social programs is helping those on said social programs? To me it looks like nothing but keeping them under your thumb while telling them it's for their own good.

      --
      My rights don't end where your fear begins.
      • (Score: 5, Insightful) by JoeMerchant on Friday January 12 2018, @05:46AM (50 children)

        by JoeMerchant (3937) on Friday January 12 2018, @05:46AM (#621272)

        Well, here's the fun part: not everybody can earn wages. So, kill the social programs and we might as well start digging mass graves, putting the indigent in buses, driving them to the edge and telling them to jump in. You can't deport 'em all, the majority were born here.

        Unless you've got a thousand points of light in your pocket that can supply the 6 trillion dollars per year that are keeping people in the US fed, housed, and in good enough condition that they're not breaking into your house in the middle of the night to steal food, or money for food.

        The "thousand points of light" are just as effective as "trickle down" for people in need.

        In 2012, Points of Light mobilized 4 million volunteers in 30 million hours of service worth $635 million.

        Great, so they're only short by a factor of roughly 10,000 from replacing the major state and federal social programs. I'm sure that will scale up as needed when taxes are reduced, won't it?

        --
        🌻🌻 [google.com]
        • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday January 12 2018, @11:15AM (49 children)

          by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Friday January 12 2018, @11:15AM (#621334) Homepage Journal

          I'm sure that will scale up as needed when taxes are reduced, won't it?

          That's kind of the point. Your own comrades are the ones saying that social programs are harming wages. If the programs go away, wages go up. If wages go up, who the hell needs social programs? If we don't need social programs, people can keep the parts of their wages that would have been paying for the programs, so they have even more in their pockets.

          --
          My rights don't end where your fear begins.
          • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Friday January 12 2018, @12:51PM (39 children)

            by JoeMerchant (3937) on Friday January 12 2018, @12:51PM (#621347)

            If wages go up, who the hell needs social programs?

            Start with the unemployed, move on to the disabled, elderly, etc.

            If we don't need social programs, people can keep the parts of their wages that would have been paying for the programs, so they have even more in their pockets.

            Historically, those pockets don't open charitably enough to keep all the unemployed, disabled and elderly out of dire straits.

            --
            🌻🌻 [google.com]
            • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday January 12 2018, @02:11PM (38 children)

              by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Friday January 12 2018, @02:11PM (#621374) Homepage Journal

              Historically the disabled and elderly have been taken of by their families. The unemployed? Unless they physically can't work, fuck them.

              --
              My rights don't end where your fear begins.
              • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 12 2018, @03:47PM (9 children)

                by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 12 2018, @03:47PM (#621405)

                All good if you have a functional family, or even any family at all. But with the trend to smaller families the traditional means of support for disabled & aged has broken down.

                • (Score: 1, Flamebait) by Azuma Hazuki on Friday January 12 2018, @04:23PM (7 children)

                  by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Friday January 12 2018, @04:23PM (#621424) Journal

                  Don't bother trying to reason with Uzzard. He's another fucking Randroid who couldn't pass a high school economics class if Adam Smith were reading him the textbook and having him follow along with a pointing finger.

                  This is not due to lack of intelligence, but lack of wisdom. Simply put, he doesn't WANT to know, because that would require changing his worldview and admitting that he is wrong. SN is infested with his kind, and unfortunately for us, he's one of the staff...

                  --
                  I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
                  • (Score: 3, Touché) by Marand on Sunday January 14 2018, @05:03AM (6 children)

                    by Marand (1081) on Sunday January 14 2018, @05:03AM (#622097) Journal

                    SN is infested with his kind, and unfortunately for us, he's one of the staff...

                    He's also a lot more tolerant of people having opposing views here than you are. Regardless of what his opinions are, least he's making them as a commenter and debating with people rather than taking a "my way or the highway" attitude and waving admin powers around over people he disagrees with, or just being dismissive and insulting like your comment was. Although I also don't agree with his extreme "I got mine, fuck everyone else" view on the topic, I don't think the insults and name-calling over it were warranted. Sure, it's unlikely you'll change his mind being respectful and civil, but at least then you won't be doing a disservice to your own views and others that share them, like you do by taking juvenile snipes at him as a person.

                    (Also, seriously, "infested with his kind"? That's some over-the-top hyperbole there, equating people you disagree with to vermin or insects.)

                    • (Score: 1, Flamebait) by Azuma Hazuki on Sunday January 14 2018, @07:04PM (5 children)

                      by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Sunday January 14 2018, @07:04PM (#622235) Journal

                      Tone trolling is the last refuge of the scoundrel.

                      You're pulling the same "fair and balanced" bullshit Fox does, and it's just as wrong here.

                      Listen to me and listen well: some things simply are not up for debate. Oh, you CAN debate them, but the kind of people who usually claim they want to are here for proselytizing, rather than actual debate. I place Uzzard's libertarian horseshit in precisely the same category as I place NAMBLA's pedophilia apologetics and for nearly the same reason. You can "debate" it all you want, but the plain facts are 1) they're bad for society as a whole and 2) they have no real arguments to back them up; they collide with the genetic, evolutionary, and societal makeup of humanity as a whole.

                      Do you get it now? I'm all for honest debate, but that's not what people like him pull. I am sick and fucking tired of people polluting the noosphere with this shit.

                      --
                      I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
                      • (Score: 2) by Marand on Monday January 15 2018, @12:12AM (1 child)

                        by Marand (1081) on Monday January 15 2018, @12:12AM (#622332) Journal

                        "Tone trolling"? No, I was trying to politely tell you that you're being a jackass while contributing nothing, and in the process making him look good in comparison. It seems like the majority of what I see you post on SN is combative and insulting, and doubling down on it by insulting me over mentioning it doesn't really help make you look like less of a jackass.

                        I believe arguments should be civil rather than devolve into name-calling shouting matches, because once it turns into a flamewar it's all noise and no signal. Arguing with someone almost never changes their opinion, but IMO the real point of debating something contentious is the audience to the argument. Being reasonable and making good points does a much better job of convincing others of your point — or at the least, not pushing them to the opposite side — than being an asshole.

                        Anyway, I figured I'd try saying, basically, "calm the fuck down" (but not as rudely) in case you're just letting emotions get in the way of reason, but I guess it's more of a vendetta against him, since you know he's most likely not going to ban you no matter what you say so you can get away with it. In that case, it's between you and him and I don't particularly care beyond annoyance at having to read or scroll through the bullshit to look for useful discussion, but that's easily fixed by giving you a negative karma bonus so your comments are collapsed by default. (Don't take that the wrong way, it's nothing personal, I just mark a few people 'enemy' so their replies to people start collapsed because their posts feel like I'm wasting time reading them, and your perpetual flamewar with TMB is a waste of time to me.)

                        • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday January 15 2018, @03:21AM

                          by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Monday January 15 2018, @03:21AM (#622395) Journal

                          Marand, listen...I've been here almost since the site's inception. I've come to accept the fact that 1) there are around half a dozen truly diseased, evil people on here, 2) Uzzard's one of them, and 3) unfortunately for us he's one of the staff.

                          After the last year-plus of political horror, I made a promise to myself: no more bargaining with terrorists. Because that's what shitheads like him and J-Mo and Runaway basically are: memetic terrorists. They are every bit as fanatical about their beliefs as a Muslim suicide bomber with a dynamite corset, though far less willing to put life and limb on the line for them. But they're exactly as beyond reason and faith-motivated; it just so happens their main article of faith is "Fuck you, got mine (and even if I don't I'd rather we both die than see you get something I don't think you deserve") rather than "There is no God but Allah and Muhammed is his prophet."

                          I know you don't want to face this. I don't either. But some people are beyond redemption, through a specific and consciously-made choice, and NOTHING is going to change them short of horrible personal suffering. And even then, that's not a given.

                          They see civility, compromise, and stopping to think as weaknesses, do you understand that? They look at people like you and me with contempt at best, and at worst, believe we do not deserve to live. They game the system. They demand their opponents not step over certain lines while making it a point not only to cross them themselves, but to laugh about it and pat themselves on the back for it, for not being stupid sheep who play by the rules.

                          There are a lot more sociopaths out there than you want to acknowledge, and they've reached a critical mass in this country, both in terms of population and in terms of reach. And I am done trying to reach them. If they will not abide by basic human decency, I will not treat them as humans any longer, but rather the dangerous animals they pretend themselves to be.

                          --
                          I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
                      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Marand on Monday January 15 2018, @12:54AM (2 children)

                        by Marand (1081) on Monday January 15 2018, @12:54AM (#622341) Journal

                        Meant to add this to my other comment and forgot before submitting, sorry for double post:

                        Since I'm guessing by the "tone trolling" remark that you think I agree with TMB and was using my comment to try shutting down opposition, I figured I should add that I'm a supporter of universal basic income, which I believe strongly clashes with his "fuck social programs, I got mine why should I help anybody else" viewpoint. I think it's the only reasonable way forward long-term, because automation's eventually going to eat the majority of jobs, leaving a lot of people without options. Better to consolidate all the various programs, try to give everyone a livable wage, and let those that can work for more do so without hurting the ones that can't. I know there's the "everyone will be lazy!" argument, but I don't think it's the case; people tend to want more, and most will either look for work (for supplemental income) or be driven to create things, which they didn't have time to do when working 2-3 part-time jobs to barely pay bills.

                        Minimum wage + various programs is just a kludge that I hope is temporary.

                        • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday January 15 2018, @09:49AM (1 child)

                          by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Monday January 15 2018, @09:49AM (#622503) Homepage Journal

                          You've been listening to looters too long. Compassion does not require robbery and help does not require the government.

                          --
                          My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                          • (Score: 2) by Marand on Monday January 15 2018, @11:25PM

                            by Marand (1081) on Monday January 15 2018, @11:25PM (#622839) Journal

                            help does not require the government.

                            Except that's supposed to be part of the government's job, otherwise we wouldn't bother with government at all. I'm generally pretty cynical, so this is somewhat out-of-character to say, but I've noticed that most people are fairly well-meaning and helpful to others. However, individual helpfulness doesn't scale, which is where government comes in. That said, I don't think complete wealth redistribution (communism style) will work because, while generally helpful, people still want goals and self-improvement, which is why I think UBI is a good middle ground between that extreme and the dog-eat-dog nature of extreme, absolute capitalism. People get a base income, and anything extra they earn is based on what they contribute rather than some government-mandated minimum that pushes people to take busy-work jobs instead of finding meaningful work.

                            Minimum wage and existing programs are sort of trying at the same thing as UBI, but in a way that, for the employee, encourages taking busy-work jobs because they have to have anything in a pinch, and for the employer, discourages employment and enriches the selfish assholes that find ways to employ fewer people and work the remaining ones until they drop. Successful businessmen often have sociopath tendencies, and the larger the business the more likely this seems to be, so despite most people being helpful to others, businesses can't be expected to do the right thing for society without "nudging" them in that direction. Hell, I'm still trying to get medical benefits from my full-time job because my employer does anything it can to stall; and based on how lax they are with paying bills, I doubt they'd pay their employees if they thought they could get away with it.

                            Of course, this kind of topic opens up a whole other can of worms, because it leads into discussing issues with the government itself. There's plenty that can be said about the US government's failure to represent the interests of the citizens in favour of big business, government bloat, and any number of other topics, because it's all linked in some way. That's why I try to avoid political discussions, it's too easy to get caught up in them and never get anything else done. :P

                • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday January 12 2018, @07:47PM

                  by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Friday January 12 2018, @07:47PM (#621510) Homepage Journal

                  Actually, no. The trend towards smaller families means there is more disposable income sloshing around in each of your children's households.

                  --
                  My rights don't end where your fear begins.
              • (Score: 3, Insightful) by JoeMerchant on Friday January 12 2018, @04:49PM (27 children)

                by JoeMerchant (3937) on Friday January 12 2018, @04:49PM (#621440)

                In a country of 350 million, there are a significant number of disabled and elderly who are without family. With the rising tide of DINKs, many of them are going to find themselves without family support just when they start to need it. Easy to say that DINKs have the resources to save for their own care, unless they become disabled, or fall on the wrong side of an investment bubble.

                The unemployed? I, personally have been out of work for up to 4 months at a stretch - couldn't get anything above minimum wage after my six figure job went up in smoke. After searching for 4 months in a radius of 300 miles (trying to stay near that family support network) watching the savings dwindle, the joke of unemployment compensation not even keeping up with basic needs, my wife now 6 months pregnant with obviously no health insurance, we took the job search nationwide and managed to find a good one 1000 miles from home. Not everybody is as lucky (or talented) as me - so, fuck them all, right? Take people who have been contributing to the economy at a high level for over a decade with one organization and turn them and their young children out in the street homeless because the economy has taken a pivot away from one sector to another?

                --
                🌻🌻 [google.com]
                • (Score: 2, Disagree) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday January 12 2018, @07:50PM (26 children)

                  by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Friday January 12 2018, @07:50PM (#621513) Homepage Journal

                  Take people who have been contributing to the economy at a high level for over a decade with one organization and turn them and their young children out in the street homeless because the economy has taken a pivot away from one sector to another?

                  If there are no jobs open for the position they lost, it was not a useful job and they were not contributing to the economy so much as leeching off incompetent management.

                  --
                  My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                  • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Friday January 12 2018, @08:43PM (25 children)

                    by JoeMerchant (3937) on Friday January 12 2018, @08:43PM (#621548)

                    If there are no jobs open for the position they lost, it was not a useful job and they were not contributing to the economy so much as leeching off incompetent management.

                    Which is, of course, utter and complete horse shit. The engineering sector expands and contracts, often on political cycles. When you are one of 20,000 engineers employed in a particular sector that is currently demanding 22,000 engineers, things are great, pick your job from a wide variety. Times change, now only 19,000 engineers are needed in that sector - and if your management happened to be incompetent, or as likely just unlucky, you may be among the 1000 out looking for work.

                    Which is that? Not a useful job? Leeching off of incompetent management? What about the preceding 10 years when the job was in high demand?

                    The incompetent management that has screwed the most with my employability is the war machine - with Ronnine Ray-Gun on the way out when I graduated with my BSEE, the whole sector was puckered up tight, lots of guys with experience on the street looking for work - only jobs I was finding were in the nuclear power industry - that would have been a real great choice in 1988, right? Go into nuke power plants because that's where the jobs are. 2 more years in school and when I came back out I landed a job in medical devices - that ran for 12 years and had me making great salary and benefits, until 9/11 - then the funding for small med device companies all jumped ship into homeland security, follow the money into BS TSA projects? Maybe, but there wasn't any work in homeland security anywhere near my home. I made it through by finding a good med device company far away, but throw a little twist in this story and I could have been as easily trying to fit a family of four into my Mom's spare bedroom - and there's nothing productive or efficient about forcing people into those situations.

                    --
                    🌻🌻 [google.com]
                    • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday January 12 2018, @11:46PM (24 children)

                      by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Friday January 12 2018, @11:46PM (#621613) Homepage Journal

                      Forcing? Sorry, you don't get to blame the results of your own poor foresight on anyone else. Nobody forced you to make the choices you made.

                      --
                      My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                      • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Saturday January 13 2018, @03:19AM (23 children)

                        by JoeMerchant (3937) on Saturday January 13 2018, @03:19AM (#621668)

                        Troll much? The only way you could actually believe your own bullshit is if you live under a rock, alone.

                        --
                        🌻🌻 [google.com]
                        • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Saturday January 13 2018, @03:30AM (22 children)

                          by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Saturday January 13 2018, @03:30AM (#621674) Homepage Journal

                          Or I could just believe in personal responsibility instead of blaming all your woes on others.

                          --
                          My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                          • (Score: 3, Insightful) by JoeMerchant on Saturday January 13 2018, @06:07AM (21 children)

                            by JoeMerchant (3937) on Saturday January 13 2018, @06:07AM (#621712)

                            Nope, not buying it, unless you're like 12 years old you should know that there's as much luck in life, things beyond an individual's control, as there is making personally responsible choices.

                            Fish in the ocean live and die by luck more than skill, strength or "responsible choices." Part of human society, for millennia, has involved a level of mercy and care for those less fortunate. Misfortune can strike anyone, regardless of their level of personal responsibility, morality, diligence, industry, or intelligence. The vast majority need help now and again, and the vast majority don't have rich relatives who will just make everything alright by writing a check.

                            If you're going to cram people into cities and make them all interdependent on each other, you can either provide social safety nets, or just let the sick, dead and desperate clog your streets. There's not enough productive land on the planet for everyone to have an independent homestead where we either make a living off of our own land or starve when winter comes.

                            --
                            🌻🌻 [google.com]
                            • (Score: 1, Flamebait) by The Mighty Buzzard on Saturday January 13 2018, @11:33AM (20 children)

                              by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Saturday January 13 2018, @11:33AM (#621759) Homepage Journal

                              ...luck in life, things beyond an individual's control...

                              This is what losers blame all their failures on, yes. Men, however, prefer to take responsibility for the courses our lives take. This includes planning ahead for unfortunate circumstances.

                              --
                              My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                              • (Score: 4, Insightful) by JoeMerchant on Saturday January 13 2018, @02:41PM (19 children)

                                by JoeMerchant (3937) on Saturday January 13 2018, @02:41PM (#621804)

                                This is what losers blame all their failures on, yes. Men, however, prefer to take responsibility for the courses our lives take. This includes planning ahead for unfortunate circumstances.

                                The problem with the great roulette wheel of populist capitalism is that, in a society of 350 million, it still puts thousands of people who made all the best, most responsible choices possible in their life, even planning ahead with all possible foresight, jobless and homeless. And, of course, we're talking about human beings here, so many more make less than optimal choices too.

                                What percentage of the population are you willing to brand "losers" and let twist in the wind? When one of those "losers" kills your parents in an alley, are you going to go vigilante and run around in a bat suit at night futilely attempting to take responsibility for your family being insensitive, sociopathic jerks? Very few people start from such a fortunate position in life as to be able to do that. Personally, I'd rather shape society such that the "losers" don't have strong biologically based reasons to go around killing people in dark alleys for a couple of bucks, 'cause even the "best families" can get unlucky that way too.

                                --
                                🌻🌻 [google.com]
                                • (Score: 2, Disagree) by The Mighty Buzzard on Saturday January 13 2018, @04:38PM (18 children)

                                  by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Saturday January 13 2018, @04:38PM (#621840) Homepage Journal

                                  Yes, I'm sure you would enjoy it if wild unicorns just ran around and shit piles of money in everyone's yard every morning. Unfortunately that isn't going to happen. In this life you can either earn your way or you can steal from others. One of these is a morally correct choice and benefits society as a whole while the other is contemptible and society is better off paying to incarcerate you. No, it does not matter if you talk the government into doing the stealing for you; adding a middle-man does not change the ethical correctness of an act.

                                  --
                                  My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                                  • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Saturday January 13 2018, @05:15PM (4 children)

                                    by JoeMerchant (3937) on Saturday January 13 2018, @05:15PM (#621855)

                                    society is better off paying to incarcerate you.

                                    Wow! Three hots and a cot in a warm, dry room? Sounds like a great deal, if you happen to get caught. And who pays for the guards, and the chase, and the trial, and the incarceration? That sounds like a lot of expense to me, just to reward thieves with a comfy place to live after they get caught.

                                    --
                                    🌻🌻 [google.com]
                                    • (Score: 1, Flamebait) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday January 15 2018, @03:27AM (3 children)

                                      by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Monday January 15 2018, @03:27AM (#622399) Journal

                                      When people show you who they are, believe them the first time, okay? Uzzard is not worth your debate time or your bandwidth. He's not here for honest debate. You've seen this. He's PROUD of that sociopathic horseshit he spent half a dozen posts spewing.

                                      --
                                      I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
                                      • (Score: 2, Flamebait) by JoeMerchant on Monday January 15 2018, @03:57AM (2 children)

                                        by JoeMerchant (3937) on Monday January 15 2018, @03:57AM (#622416)

                                        Khallow at least tries to have some internal consistency and supportable logic for his bent view of the universe. I don't usually tangle with Uzzard, but he's much easier to push into an irrational corner, it's nice to see that his surface BS comments are backed up by deeper, even less supportable BS. And, besides, I was bored.

                                        --
                                        🌻🌻 [google.com]
                                        • (Score: 2, Informative) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday January 15 2018, @06:28AM (1 child)

                                          by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Monday January 15 2018, @06:28AM (#622460) Journal

                                          Gods, we have some complete pieces of shit on this forum, don't we? All I hope for is every single one of the ones like Uzzard ends up sick and homeless through no fault of their own and has their "come to Jesus" moment. Whether they survive it or not. Nothing teaches people like them except personal suffering.

                                          --
                                          I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
                                          • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday January 15 2018, @01:48PM

                                            by JoeMerchant (3937) on Monday January 15 2018, @01:48PM (#622562)

                                            I have some older relatives who would "never take charity from anyone," but... that didn't stop them from taking their $1000 per month social security checks from a system they never paid into (because they were self-employed and not forced to...) Still, they didn't sign up for SNAP, which they could have been eligible for, because that would have been a government handout.

                                            --
                                            🌻🌻 [google.com]
                                  • (Score: 2) by acid andy on Monday January 15 2018, @10:14AM (12 children)

                                    by acid andy (1683) on Monday January 15 2018, @10:14AM (#622512) Homepage Journal

                                    Most forms of commerce in the modern day free market are a type of stealing. Stealing with consent, really. There are a few products and services that are truly good value for money. The rest, by maximizing profit and minimizing costs, are effectively scams to trick people into parting with wealth that they arguably would have been better off keeping, once their crappy product breaks in a few months or their service backfires. Quality and durability of products is cut to a bare minimum and marketing spins illusions to sell shit that people simply do not need. Many services people would be far better off in the long term if they simply learned to do it themselves.

                                    The bigger the world population, the more competitive people have to get to stake a claim to decent land and resources so rather than a constructive force, work becomes a battle to see whoever can screw over the other guy quickest and take their wealth from them.

                                    It's a race to the bottom.

                                    --
                                    If a cat has kittens, does a rat have rittens, a bat bittens and a mat mittens?
                                    • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday January 15 2018, @10:38AM (11 children)

                                      by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Monday January 15 2018, @10:38AM (#622517) Homepage Journal

                                      Stealing with consent is what we sane people like to call "voluntary exchange".

                                      --
                                      My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                                      • (Score: 2) by acid andy on Monday January 15 2018, @10:49AM (10 children)

                                        by acid andy (1683) on Monday January 15 2018, @10:49AM (#622521) Homepage Journal

                                        When people's wages are so far behind inflation that they can only afford the cheapest, crappiest food that has been incrementally reduced in size and quality it's barely voluntary. When all affordable choices for a product have crappy built in obsolescence and don't work as advertised, value is being stolen from the consumer because they're being tricked into paying for an imagined benefit that simply doesn't exist in what they are getting.

                                        --
                                        If a cat has kittens, does a rat have rittens, a bat bittens and a mat mittens?
                                        • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday January 15 2018, @12:55PM (9 children)

                                          by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Monday January 15 2018, @12:55PM (#622546) Homepage Journal

                                          Yeah, that's 100% voluntary exchange. Those in that situation are contributing fuck-all, so they're making fuck-all. Which they should. If your value in your job is no better than that of some dipshit kid just entering the workforce, you absolutely deserve to be paid the same shitty wages. If you think you're more valuable but nobody will pay you more, you're simply incorrect.

                                          As for shitty products, that corrects itself barring monopoly powers or regulatory capture; just not instantly.

                                          --
                                          My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                                          • (Score: 2) by acid andy on Monday January 15 2018, @02:43PM (8 children)

                                            by acid andy (1683) on Monday January 15 2018, @02:43PM (#622574) Homepage Journal

                                            Yeah, that's 100% voluntary exchange. Those in that situation are contributing fuck-all, so they're making fuck-all. Which they should. If your value in your job is no better than that of some dipshit kid just entering the workforce, you absolutely deserve to be paid the same shitty wages. If you think you're more valuable but nobody will pay you more, you're simply incorrect.

                                            Of course there's some link between a wage and the value to the employer. Or at least a theoretical upper limit to that wage. However it's widely recognized that generally speaking, if you're not someone like a director or investment banker, wages in the western world have been stagnating for years. That doesn't mean that the work being done has become less valuable over time. Wages for the same work (or in many cases, an expanded work load) have fallen in real terms, year after year, for the overwhelming majority of people. So are you saying that the vast, overwhelming majority of people are dipshits, oh mighty feathered scaly footed one? If so, I suppose it's possible you may be onto something but I think the mob may beg to differ when they arrive with their pitchforks.

                                            As for shitty products, that corrects itself barring monopoly powers or regulatory capture; just not instantly.

                                            Well it best get a move on. I've seen a gradual decline in the durability of most products over the last 20 years. The old "They don't make them like they used to!" meme was definitely on to something!

                                            --
                                            If a cat has kittens, does a rat have rittens, a bat bittens and a mat mittens?
                                            • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday January 15 2018, @03:52PM (7 children)

                                              by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Monday January 15 2018, @03:52PM (#622586) Homepage Journal

                                              I'm saying their work is less valuable to their employer if the average wage for their position is falling, yes. Look, wages aren't ideally valued correctly, they're always valued correctly. If you accept less, it's because you don't believe you can go out and find better. Which means that nobody is willing to pay you more. Which means the market has correctly valued your industriousness.

                                              The solution to having a shitty paying job is either A) go get the same job for more elsewhere or B) go get a different job that pays better. Wanting or needing more money does not entitle you to more money. Need and desire are not valuable characteristics.

                                              I've seen a gradual decline in the durability of most products over the last 20 years.

                                              That there is what them of us with a wee bit of vision like to call an "opportunity". Toyota understands that, which is why their vehicles could be expected to run over a quarter of a million miles since the 90s. Mind you, it has to be done in an area where people have a significant amount of give-a-shit about the durability to price ratio for the item in question.

                                              --
                                              My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                                              • (Score: 2) by acid andy on Monday January 15 2018, @04:30PM (6 children)

                                                by acid andy (1683) on Monday January 15 2018, @04:30PM (#622606) Homepage Journal

                                                Look, wages aren't ideally valued correctly, they're always valued correctly. If you accept less, it's because you don't believe you can go out and find better.

                                                If as the statistics seem to suggest, most wages are stagnating, that implies that in most cases there simply isn't anything better out there. What you're saying seems to suggest that people in such situations should seek a promotion or acquire new skills for a higher paid job. The trouble is, there are far fewer of the higher paid positions available than lower paid. That's why, on average, people are screwed.

                                                --
                                                If a cat has kittens, does a rat have rittens, a bat bittens and a mat mittens?
                                                • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday January 15 2018, @04:34PM (5 children)

                                                  by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Monday January 15 2018, @04:34PM (#622608) Homepage Journal

                                                  Only if you come at it from a "Average people are incapable of creating jobs, only of performing them" point of view. Which is quite shitty to average people and also untrue.

                                                  --
                                                  My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                                                  • (Score: 2) by acid andy on Monday January 15 2018, @04:44PM (4 children)

                                                    by acid andy (1683) on Monday January 15 2018, @04:44PM (#622610) Homepage Journal

                                                    Yeah, I did think of the "create your own job" option for people and it's certainly still very possible for many people. It's a fair point. Of course it's harder than it used to be in the west due to globalization (which can bring advantages but brings increased competition), monopolies, increased regulation and of course the widening wealth inequality meaning less consumers are available to afford a high price for your product.

                                                    --
                                                    If a cat has kittens, does a rat have rittens, a bat bittens and a mat mittens?
                                                    • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday January 15 2018, @05:03PM (3 children)

                                                      by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Monday January 15 2018, @05:03PM (#622616) Homepage Journal

                                                      It's mostly harder because people have been conditioned to not think for themselves.

                                                      Drop the wealth inequality line entirely though. The only people wealth inequality is a bad thing to are those whose personal happiness is rooted in greed. Having a large spread between the super wealthy and Average Joe does zilch to consumer prices. The only prices it has an effect on are things that are only marketed to the uber-wealthy; like gold-plated swimming pools.

                                                      --
                                                      My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                                                      • (Score: 2) by acid andy on Monday January 15 2018, @05:21PM (2 children)

                                                        by acid andy (1683) on Monday January 15 2018, @05:21PM (#622625) Homepage Journal

                                                        I think easy credit for the Average Joe masked the true long term effects on prices.

                                                        --
                                                        If a cat has kittens, does a rat have rittens, a bat bittens and a mat mittens?
                                                        • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday January 15 2018, @07:24PM (1 child)

                                                          by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Monday January 15 2018, @07:24PM (#622672) Homepage Journal

                                                          Oh it fucked up a hell of a lot of things. Credit cards should only ever be used to build your credit score; put normal expenses on them and pay them off in full at the end of the month. Average people using them any other way is fucking retarded.

                                                          --
                                                          My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                                                          • (Score: 2) by acid andy on Monday January 15 2018, @07:48PM

                                                            by acid andy (1683) on Monday January 15 2018, @07:48PM (#622688) Homepage Journal

                                                            Although I would have worded it more charitably, you've found something we can agree on.

                                                            --
                                                            If a cat has kittens, does a rat have rittens, a bat bittens and a mat mittens?
          • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Dr Spin on Friday January 12 2018, @03:08PM (6 children)

            by Dr Spin (5239) on Friday January 12 2018, @03:08PM (#621394)

            who the hell needs social programs?

            People whose employers have "financial accidents", get run over by buses, are caught running Ponzi schemes, or get bought out by asset strippers to name but a few.

            In America, you could also add accident and crime victims, and people who get sick for some reason.

            --
            Warning: Opening your mouth may invalidate your brain!
            • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday January 12 2018, @07:53PM (5 children)

              by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Friday January 12 2018, @07:53PM (#621516) Homepage Journal

              Or you could stop subsidizing the stupidity of people who choose not to save for a rainy day.

              --
              My rights don't end where your fear begins.
              • (Score: 2) by bob_super on Monday January 15 2018, @06:28AM (4 children)

                by bob_super (1357) on Monday January 15 2018, @06:28AM (#622461)

                I'm pretty sure we originated the discussion at minimum wage.
                Anyone below 2x min wage doesn't get to save for rainy days (unless they live at their parents').

                • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday January 15 2018, @09:54AM (3 children)

                  by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Monday January 15 2018, @09:54AM (#622507) Homepage Journal

                  Bullshit. I did. It wasn't pleasant but even working shit jobs I was never fool enough to spend like unfortunate shit isn't guaranteed to pop up in life.

                  --
                  My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                  • (Score: 2) by bob_super on Monday January 15 2018, @05:51PM (2 children)

                    by bob_super (1357) on Monday January 15 2018, @05:51PM (#622642)

                    How long ago?
                    My coworker's son just broke his wrist. Not exactly an extraordinary event.
                    Was sent to the wrong hospital, maxed out the out-of-network, plus follow-ups should max his in-network: $20000 total left to pay after insurance.
                    That's over a year of minimum wage, enough to force most minimum-wagers into bankruptcy.

                    Minimum wage has definitely not kept up with the real inflation of shit-happens costs.

                    • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday January 15 2018, @07:47PM (1 child)

                      by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Monday January 15 2018, @07:47PM (#622687) Homepage Journal

                      If he's old enough to have a kid he has no business working at a minimum wage job for longer than it takes to find something that is not a minimum wage job, which he should be absolutely busting his ass to find. Minimum wage should not be a comfortable wage. You should damned near starve on it and you sure as fuck shouldn't be able to raise a family on it. Adults should have adult jobs. The problem with America is not that minimum wage is too low. It's that grown-ass adults are so utterly worthless that they can't get better.

                      --
                      My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                      • (Score: 2) by bob_super on Tuesday January 16 2018, @05:39PM

                        by bob_super (1357) on Tuesday January 16 2018, @05:39PM (#623194)

                        Walmart is the biggest retailer. How many people do you think are getting that $11/hr ?
                        It ain't for kids. It's "take it or move, because we killed all other local stores" wages, and hundreds of thousands of people have to take it.

                        You seem pretty deluded ... tens of millions of Americans with families are on minimum-wage jobs. Pretty often, they have two of them. It's the new normal.

          • (Score: 2) by Taibhsear on Friday January 12 2018, @04:36PM (1 child)

            by Taibhsear (1464) on Friday January 12 2018, @04:36PM (#621432)

            If the programs go away, wages go up.

            It's adorable that you think companies will raise wages if the social programs get canceled.

      • (Score: 2) by SanityCheck on Friday January 12 2018, @06:22AM (6 children)

        by SanityCheck (5190) on Friday January 12 2018, @06:22AM (#621286)

        Counter point I guess is that there are huge number of people for whom if you gave money instead of the social benefit (be it healthcare or food or housing etc) they would spend the extra money on lottery tickets and booze and remain sick, hungry, and homeless.

        • (Score: 2) by deimtee on Friday January 12 2018, @08:38AM

          by deimtee (3272) on Friday January 12 2018, @08:38AM (#621306) Journal

          they would spend the extra money on lottery tickets and booze and remain sick, hungry, and homeless.

          Money doesn't disappear, it just moves. The .gov gets the money from lottery tickets to hand out to the homeless, and booze stores have to hire more staff, boosting the local economy.

          --
          If you cough while drinking cheap red wine it really cleans out your sinuses.
        • (Score: 3, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday January 12 2018, @11:16AM (4 children)

          by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Friday January 12 2018, @11:16AM (#621335) Homepage Journal

          Yeah, that's what we call "Liberty". If you don't have the freedom to make a choice someone else doesn't like, you don't have freedom at all.

          --
          My rights don't end where your fear begins.
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 12 2018, @01:21PM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 12 2018, @01:21PM (#621353)

            Agreed. However, the way I see it -- without social programs, for a lot of people the only free "choice" left would be to kill themselves.

          • (Score: 4, Insightful) by SanityCheck on Friday January 12 2018, @02:28PM (1 child)

            by SanityCheck (5190) on Friday January 12 2018, @02:28PM (#621382)

            That is liberty for the adults, now tell me about their kids. Are they experiencing liberty under your system?

    • (Score: 2) by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us on Friday January 12 2018, @04:18PM (2 children)

      by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us (6553) on Friday January 12 2018, @04:18PM (#621420) Journal

      A person who is starving to death will likely do anything to put food in their mouths, including smiling and welcoming people - really good ones will imitate a high degree of sincerity.

      And WalMart doesn't need to keep the same workers, because the training costs are minimal. So long as they can manage the churn they can happily take each fresh generation that has to downshift their lives. In short, I think WalMart would survive the elimination of social programs. Society, I'm not so sure.

      --
      This sig for rent.
      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Taibhsear on Friday January 12 2018, @04:39PM (1 child)

        by Taibhsear (1464) on Friday January 12 2018, @04:39PM (#621435)

        A person who is starving to death will likely do anything to put food in their mouths, including stealing, robbing homes, and mugging people.

        FTFY

        • (Score: 2) by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us on Friday January 12 2018, @06:16PM

          by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us (6553) on Friday January 12 2018, @06:16PM (#621472) Journal

          Correct. I wasn't trying to imply that if social programs are cut that there wouldn't be an increase in crime, nor was I advocating that they should be cut. Only that, if they are cut, people would still be acting as greeters at Walmart until they have a health problem something similar that the social programs would have addressed. And then there would be someone right behind them to take the job until they can't do it any more. Therefore Walmart has no vested interest in whether social programs exist... until their attention is invited to it by legal measures if so.

          --
          This sig for rent.
  • (Score: 3, Interesting) by frojack on Friday January 12 2018, @12:17AM (3 children)

    by frojack (1554) on Friday January 12 2018, @12:17AM (#621195) Journal

    I'm not aware of anyone who thinks all Social Programs are immoral and should be eliminated.

    Social programs were never meant to fund mega corporations, they were to provide temporary help for the temporarily unemployed, or permanent help for those unable to ever be employed.

    If you are an adult, and working, at 50% of full time or more, and still qualify for social programs, the entire bill for social program benefits should be sent to your employer. Especially if your employer has more than 5 such employees.

    After-school and summer employment for teens was what the provisions allowing such employment conditions were put in the law for. Not so Walmart could skate on health care and a living wage.

    The intentional practice of keeping boat loads of employees just below that level needed to qualify for full time benefits and the current minimum wage is a scourge brought about by the need for the democratic party to maintain a large underclass in need of social programs as a source of voters.

    --
    No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
    • (Score: 5, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 12 2018, @12:50AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 12 2018, @12:50AM (#621207)

      The intentional practice of keeping boat loads of employees just below that level needed to qualify for full time benefits and the current minimum wage is a scourge brought about by the need for the democratic party to maintain a large underclass in need of social programs as a source of voters.

      It's possible I am wrong on this but my impression has been that it is Republicans who have consistently fought against raising the minimum wage and Democrats who have been fighting for it. Of course, if you have anything to educate me otherwise I would be interested ins seeing that.

    • (Score: 5, Funny) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday January 12 2018, @05:02AM

      by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Friday January 12 2018, @05:02AM (#621263) Homepage Journal

      I'm not aware of anyone who thinks all Social Programs are immoral and should be eliminated.

      Hi, nice to meet you.

      --
      My rights don't end where your fear begins.
    • (Score: 3, Touché) by JoeMerchant on Friday January 12 2018, @05:49AM

      by JoeMerchant (3937) on Friday January 12 2018, @05:49AM (#621273)

      skate on health care and a living wage.

      That's capitalism, baby! If you're not taking full advantage of the laws as written, you're cheating your investors out of potential gains.

      --
      🌻🌻 [google.com]