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posted by Fnord666 on Saturday January 13 2018, @04:58AM   Printer-friendly
from the warning-earworm-ahead dept.

You probably remember Subway's famous "five-dollar footlong" promotion as much for the obnoxiously catchy jingle as for the sandwiches themselves. (Sorry for getting that stuck in your head all day.)

The sandwich chain recently resurrected the promotion in a national advertising campaign promising foot-long subs for just $4.99—but the special deal won't fly at one Subway restaurant in Seattle, where owner David Jones posted a sign this week giving customers the bad news.

Sadly, the consequences of high minimum wages, excessive taxation, and mandate-happy public policy are not limited to the death of cheap sandwiches. The cost of doing business in Seattle is higher than the Space Needle, and the unintended consequences of those policies are piling up too.

The biggest cost driver, as Jones' sign mentions, is Seattle's highest-in-the-nation minimum wage. It went from $9.47 to $11 per hour in 2015, then to $13 per hour in 2016, with a further increase to $15 per hour planned.

The result? According to researchers at the University of Washington's School of Public Policy and Governance, the number of hours worked in low-wage jobs has declined by around 9 percent since the start of 2016 "while hourly wages in such jobs increased by around 3 percent." The net outcome: In 2016, the "higher" minimum wage actually lowered low-wage workers' earnings by an average of $125 a month.

And now those same employees will have to pay more for sandwiches from Subway—and everything else too.


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  • (Score: 0, Troll) by khallow on Saturday January 13 2018, @07:04PM (3 children)

    by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Saturday January 13 2018, @07:04PM (#621900) Journal

    There isn't a simple relationship between cost and demand for anything, least of all the labor you need to run your business. There is a relationship, but it's far from simple. Studies of minimum wage changes over several decades lean toward minor increases having negligible or slightly positive effect on overall employment. But it's not even close to simple.

    We're not speaking of minor increases here.

    To give an example of how deceptive the assertion of the last sentence is, consider the case of Puerto Rico. They are indeed "slightly positive" after minimum wage was increased (over the period 1974 to 1983) to match US mainland minimum wage. But that happened by about 2-3 million Puerto Ricans moving off the island between 1980 and present to places with higher wages. That has resulted in two effects that are ignored in the studies above: cost of living and increased migration.

    The great unanswered question here is what does a lower demand for labor look like? People aren't just going to stop working. They'll move, they'll accept lower pay relative to their costs, accept workplaces with more difficult conditions, etc. And that's what we see. Much has already been written of the decline in wages+benefits relative to productivity in the US. Much has been written of the "greed" of employers. Much has been written about living wages and the people who don't receive that arbitrary threshold of income. That's all signs of reduced demand for labor just as one would expect from a half century of policies that make US labor more expensive.

    The poorer they get, the less they "deserve" to get paid more, because the fact that they aren't being paid more already is proof positive that they don't deserve to be paid more.

    Yes. Next question.

    If the employees of a company are being supported by welfare checks to reach a total wage level that allows them to live at a permanent address and eat food, that company's profits are literally being SUPPORTED and INCREASED by the taxpayers.

    Then don't pay those employees, if you don't like it. The policies create the (alleged) problem. But really what problem is there here? You wanted to support these employees. And that had the effect of supporting this company's profits. It's working as intended.

    I'm sorry? In no functional society could that possibly be true. There is a level far above zero where it simply becomes easier for the populace to kill off all the rich people and redistribute their resources, a la French Revolution, and then turn to something awful like communism or heaven forbid, democratic socialism. If I have to work for 70 hours to afford to buy a hamburger, you are done. Capitalism is done. Over. That would happen long before anybody gets to $0/hr. It's as if people like you actually want capitalism to collapse, and millions of Americans to reach starvation level poverty.

    Or we could look at what works. Your angst is the result of half a century of supposedly helping out the US worker. Destroying jobs and forcing people into high cost of living areas is not fixing the problem.

    Yes, isn't it wonderful? Many more will follow. And I predict the Moon won't fall from the sky, and red states will continue to be by far the poorest states in the union, leeching off the taxes of blue states, as they have for decades now. Shall we come back in a couple more decades and see which of us was right? Anyway, there's no way in hell we're going to agree on any of this. We both think the other is looking at the world upside-down and inside-out. So this is all a remarkably fruitless exercise.

    Meanwhile, I predict Fresno [soylentnews.org].

    I picked it [Fresno] because it's a growing city (has been that way ever since its creation around 1880) and because it is one of the poorer regions of California. So a sudden reversal in its population, which is hard to disguise, would be a strong indication that the city has changed in a bad way and hence, its population has similarly experienced bad times.
    ,br> I think we'll see the start of population decline in Fresno by 2027 which is about five years into the $15 per hour state-wide minimum wage law that California passed in the recent past (and for which roughly 50% of Fresno's workers make less currently). It should be educational.

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  • (Score: 2) by RedBear on Sunday January 14 2018, @02:04AM (2 children)

    by RedBear (1734) Subscriber Badge on Sunday January 14 2018, @02:04AM (#622049)

    To give an example of how deceptive the assertion of the last sentence is, consider the case of Puerto Rico. They are indeed "slightly positive" after minimum wage was increased (over the period 1974 to 1983) to match US mainland minimum wage. But that happened by about 2-3 million Puerto Ricans moving off the island between 1980 and present to places with higher wages. That has resulted in two effects that are ignored in the studies above: cost of living and increased migration.

    It's my understanding that we've basically been leeching off Puerto Rico for decades without doing any real reinvestment to build them up. That's why they are having major infrastructure problems now. Because they aren't a state and we've never treated them like one.

    The great unanswered question here is what does a lower demand for labor look like? People aren't just going to stop working. They'll move, they'll accept lower pay relative to their costs, accept workplaces with more difficult conditions, etc. And that's what we see. Much has already been written of the decline in wages+benefits relative to productivity in the US. Much has been written of the "greed" of employers. Much has been written about living wages and the people who don't receive that arbitrary threshold of income. That's all signs of reduced demand for labor just as one would expect from a half century of policies that make US labor more expensive.

    Yet you have no answer for how America doesn't turn into a 3rd world shithole if we don't pay people enough to be simultaneously employed and housed and fed. Or perhaps you're fine with that happening.

    Yes. Next question.

    Wow. Now that's integrity. But will you go so far as to admit you believe "poor people" to be genetically inferior? You feel it in your bones, don't you? I'll bet you even wish you could have Bill Gates' genetically superior baby.

    Then don't pay those employees, if you don't like it. The policies create the (alleged) problem. But really what problem is there here? You wanted to support these employees. And that had the effect of supporting this company's profits. It's working as intended.

    Don't pay... Oh, you mean don't provide welfare checks so people can feed their children while working at Walmart. What reveals your intellectual dishonesty most clearly is how you continue to shy away from acknowledging that these corporations we're talking about are making record profits and therefore have no reason not to pay their employees a reasonable wage. Record. Profits. Not revenue. Profits.

    High cost of living areas are created by the fact that we don't place any limits on the upper end of income levels and the limitations we place on developing new housing, not by having a reasonable minimum wage.

    Guess we'll just see about Fresno.

    --
    ¯\_ʕ◔.◔ʔ_/¯ LOL. I dunno. I'm just a bear.
    ... Peace out. Got bear stuff to do. 彡ʕ⌐■.■ʔ
    • (Score: 0, Flamebait) by khallow on Sunday January 14 2018, @04:56AM (1 child)

      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday January 14 2018, @04:56AM (#622093) Journal

      It's my understanding that we've basically been leeching off Puerto Rico for decades without doing any real reinvestment to build them up. That's why they are having major infrastructure problems now. Because they aren't a state and we've never treated them like one.

      And yet we have:

      Nonetheless, the two tables below, present the “net” figures for 2004 and 2010. The tables show that in 2004 and 2010, seventeen states and the District of Columbia received more in net federal expenditures per capita than did Puerto Rico. That is, in more than one-third of all the states, in these two years, the net amount per capita received from the federal government — federal expenditures minus federal taxes — was greater than the net amount per capita received in Puerto Rico from the federal government. The reality demonstrated in the tables, then, belies the conventional wisdom and indicates that, by a reasonable comparative standard, Puerto Rico is not treated “generously” by the federal government.

      In other words, Puerto Rico receives more in net benefits per capita from the federal government than two thirds of the states. If spending at levels comparable to far wealthier states is not reinvestment, then what is?

      Yet you have no answer for how America doesn't turn into a 3rd world shithole if we don't pay people enough to be simultaneously employed and housed and fed. Or perhaps you're fine with that happening.

      I certainly do have an answer here. Get out the way of employers. One of the most obvious things about an economy is that just because you have a need, doesn't mean that you have a means to fulfill that need. You need the infrastructure in place. For example, most people have a need to not die. But we don't have any sort of infrastructure that would allow us to radically extend our lifespans beyond the usual range. No matter how much one could pontificate about the importance of not dying, it's not going to matter in today's world.

      Same goes for space colonization. One can decide that humanity living off of Earth is the most important thing ever, but mere money isn't going to make that happen. We'll need to build all kinds of Earth and space-side infrastructure to make that happen down the road.

      At least with your above paragraph, we have the means to do so. But it involves maintaining infrastructure for employing people gainfully. The key part of that infrastructure are employers. Without them, it's just as impossible as having your 200th birthday, or living on Mars would be without the corresponding medical or space-side infrastructure. I'm tired of people telling me what they want, without offering a way to get that (or worse proposing all sorts of road blocks to getting the very thing they claim to want). Thus, my usual response that you don't actually deserve this thing any more than you deserve that 200th birthday or that Mars bungalow. And if you're not going to try to get it with approaches that actually work, then of course, you won't get it. Economics like most of reality doesn't go away merely because you can't be bothered to think rationally.

      Wow. Now that's integrity. But will you go so far as to admit you believe "poor people" to be genetically inferior? You feel it in your bones, don't you? I'll bet you even wish you could have Bill Gates' genetically superior baby.

      Your race-baiting is noted.

      Don't pay... Oh, you mean don't provide welfare checks so people can feed their children while working at Walmart. What reveals your intellectual dishonesty most clearly is how you continue to shy away from acknowledging that these corporations we're talking about are making record profits and therefore have no reason not to pay their employees a reasonable wage. Record. Profits. Not revenue. Profits.

      There's no problem here. Subsidize the companies that employ these people and there is no problem. But you can't have that. Envy is your downfall.

      High cost of living areas are created by the fact that we don't place any limits on the upper end of income levels and the limitations we place on developing new housing, not by having a reasonable minimum wage.

      Of course, I already explained how that is incorrect. A reasonable minimum wage in San Jose is not a reasonable minimum wage in Fresno or Puerto Rico.