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posted by Fnord666 on Saturday January 20 2018, @10:26PM   Printer-friendly
from the eat-the-rich dept.

Donald Trump and Angela Merkel will join 2,500 world leaders, business executives and charity bosses at the World Economic Forum (WEF) in Davos, Switzerland which kicks off on 23 January. High on the agenda once again will be the topic of inequality, and how to reduce the widening gap between the rich and the rest around the world.

The WEF recently warned that the global economy is at risk of another crisis, and that automation and digitalisation are likely to suppress employment and wages for most while boosting wealth at the very top.

But what ideas should the great and good gathered in the Swiss Alps be putting into action? We'd like to know what single step you think governments should prioritise in order to best address the problem of rising inequality. Below we've outlined seven proposals that are most often championed as necessary to tackle the issue – but which of them is most important to you?

  • Provide free and high quality education
  • Raise the minimum wage
  • Raise taxes on the rich
  • Fight corruption
  • Provide more social protection for the poor
  • Stop the influence of the rich on politicians
  • Provide jobs for the unemployed

https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2018/jan/19/project-davos-whats-the-single-best-way-to-close-the-worlds-wealth-gap

Do you think these ideas are enough, or are there any better ideas to close this wealth gap ? You too can participate and vote for the idea that, you think, works best.


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  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 21 2018, @02:01AM (91 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 21 2018, @02:01AM (#625471)

    Because we are sophisticated civilized people. Well WE are, you're something else.

    Since logic and reason might work better than appealing to basic decency: a healthy population is less of an economic drag, lower costs of healthcare are obviously a benefit, and redirection of massive insurance industries into more beneficial enterprises would be better than simple middle managers who suck out wealth and contribute only suffering.

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  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Azuma Hazuki on Sunday January 21 2018, @02:37AM (24 children)

    by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Sunday January 21 2018, @02:37AM (#625480) Journal

    Uzzard's another idiot Mammon-worshiper who knows the price (or so he thinks...) of everything and the value of nothing.

    Mark that post of his well: it's "fuck you, got mine" with a pretended veneer of sympathy for *other* people who are getting "stolen from." That tells you everything you need to know about him. Read everything he ever posts with this in mind; remember the kind of person it's coming from.

    Perhaps the worst part is that he genuinely thinks he's an intelligent, deep thinker with his finger (wing?) on the pulse of modern society's ills. Dunning-Kruger-itis is a cruel disease, a kind of pseudo-dementia if you ask me, which comes with built-in anosognosia.

    --
    I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
    • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 21 2018, @02:43AM (17 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 21 2018, @02:43AM (#625481)

      Damn that guy for being well educated, successful and intelligent! Everybody knows all the best people are stupid and poor and generally useless! That's how we know how great they are!

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 21 2018, @02:59AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 21 2018, @02:59AM (#625494)

        Yeah! Zero out of three is not bad! Though, I guess he might be "successful" by some definitions, so one out of three ain't bad!

      • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Azuma Hazuki on Sunday January 21 2018, @03:05AM (15 children)

        by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Sunday January 21 2018, @03:05AM (#625500) Journal

        You really don't get it, do you? He's not intelligent outside of a couple of narrow domains, his "education" apparently didn't stick, and his success, while real, is both small and vulnerable to the same market forces as the rest of us. It can all be taken away in an instant, through no fault of his own.

        Tell me, if that happens, say his business is destroyed by a fire and he gets sick and ends up on welfare or disability...is he suddenly any more or less intelligent? Has anything about him changed? No. But I guaran-god-damn-tee you society will consider him useless trash then.

        Again: price of everything, value of nothing. There is more to life than dollar signs.

        --
        I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
        • (Score: 3, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 21 2018, @03:11AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 21 2018, @03:11AM (#625501)

          ^ the "being human" aspect that we, as naturally quite selfish creatures, often are bad at realizing extends beyond the situations we have personally encountered. These are the concepts that we learned through the evolution of our societies, and they are quite evidently similar across world cultures. Capitalism and Natural Selection have resulted in some warped mindsets that glorify greed and hurt the larger community.

        • (Score: 5, Informative) by bzipitidoo on Sunday January 21 2018, @07:17AM (3 children)

          by bzipitidoo (4388) on Sunday January 21 2018, @07:17AM (#625549) Journal

          I've noticed a topic like this brings out very loud flapping from the right wingers. They seem to know they're in the minority and are trying to compensate by being louder, and damn the facts. Rant and rave about fake problems, cherry pick data, and employ pretty much every fallacy there is, such as "trickle down", to try to justify their otherwise unjustifiable positions.

          There's plenty of evidence that the US is too harsh and unfair, and that this costs us all. I mean, holy smokes, what does it cost to raise a child? 12 years of education is surely over $100k per child. And we're going to throw that educational investment away because we suddenly cheap out on health care? What kind of idiot does that? Rich idiots who inherited more wealth than can be spent in 10 lifetimes and didn't have to do a day of work in their lives, that's who. They're the sort of people who can just shrug off massive losses. Ranchers care more about their cattle and give them better health care than Republicans give our children.

          Yes, there is a large wealth gap-- few understand just how ridiculously large the gap is-- and yes, it hurts us all. It would help immensely to stop mindlessly worshipping wealth. Many Americans seem to have Prosperity Gospel thinking burned into their brains, way too readily accept the mental shortcut that wealth is a good measure of virtue, intelligence, competence, and divine favor therefrom. Too many respect President Trump and Wall Street for that reason alone.

          • (Score: 3, Insightful) by JoeMerchant on Monday January 22 2018, @07:12PM (2 children)

            by JoeMerchant (3937) on Monday January 22 2018, @07:12PM (#626189)

            To me, the real wealth gap starts at the discretionary income level.

            So many Americans live from paycheck to paycheck, they've got what they've got, but they have no savings or spare money at all. Some of this they do to themselves with new cars and bad financing decisions, but even if they were to "smarten up," there's not very much discretionary income left after you pay taxes, housing, healthcare, food, utilities, etc.

            If you reach down into the poverty level, arguably they have zero discretionary income, and the rich are infinitely more wealthy than they are. Even at "middle class," discretionary income is amazingly small - if people save for retirement and their children's college, etc. there's not much left over. Then, as you start to enter the top 20 percent or so, discretionary income explodes - money just so you can make more money with it, real-estate investments, stocks, bonds, not just as a 401(k), but piles and piles of money that can do things like buy political favors, and what is the most commonly purchased political favor? A way for the purchaser to make even more money, I mean, why bother to buy a politician unless there's a profit in it, right?

            --
            🌻🌻 [google.com]
            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 22 2018, @10:03PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 22 2018, @10:03PM (#626261)

              Agreed. I have a decent salary and it is taking years to come close to even a home down payment! My dog getting a broken leg was the only massive unexpected cost. Throw in some kids and I wouldn't be able to save anything almost guaranteed.

              The idea that most people are just idiots who do not know how to save is one of the worst ideas pushed by the People's Republic of Personal Responsibility. Do people make bad decisions? Yes. Is that the primary cause of our social ills? No.

            • (Score: 3, Interesting) by bzipitidoo on Tuesday January 23 2018, @12:05AM

              by bzipitidoo (4388) on Tuesday January 23 2018, @12:05AM (#626347) Journal

              "A fool and his money are soon parted", but America labors especially hard to trick and trap people into losing their money. One factor that encourages reckless spending is the sense that rapacious forces will take whatever money you didn't spend fast enough.

              Like, all those fees with which banks ding their customers, predatory law enforcement of which Civil Asset Forfeiture is its purest form, and if you thought a 20% to 30% annual interest rate that many credit cards levy was exorbitant, how about the 10x worse rates which payday loan sharks and pawn shops charge? That's right, I've seen 240% annual interest charged on the money received for pawning an item, and hear of other jurisdictions that have 300% or even higher rates. There's the insane medical pricing system prevalent in the US, ready and waiting to clean out your savings should you be so unfortunate as to suffer an injury that requires medical care. Insurers are so bad that often the claims department is cynically called the claims prevention department, and the only option to get them to pay a perfectly legit claim is to sue. Most of the time the threat of a lawsuit is enough, but not always. Naturally, the lawyers love that. Debt collectors are unscrupulous scum who don't give a crap whether a debt is legit, and will keep harassing as long as they can. Speaking of debt, the whole idea of student loans has perverted higher education into a means of extracting wealth from the age bracket who has the least, for the simple crime of being too young. Then there are employers who cheat their workers of pay, press them to work off the clock, or drag their feet and slide further and further behind in paying their employees on time and then go bankrupt when they owe everyone more than a month of pay. The Intellectual Property rent seeking thieves cheekily call all of us thieves as part of their audacious propaganda campaign that for decades now has been trying to equate copying with stealing, and way too many people fall for it. And certainly not least, let's not forget Too Big To Fail financial businesses.

              Marketing is adept at selling people products that they would be better off without, drumming up fake needs for which a useless product happens to be the answer. The worst are the ones that play upon our instincts, such as lawn care. I keep hoping this fad that decrees women must shave off all their body hair would just die. It's costly and unhealthy. Sugary drinks are another-- we are hardwired to crave sugar. We also have way too much artificial lighting. Baby toys are yet another. Babies will very happily play with empty milk jugs and cardboard boxes, no need to blow a fortune on stupid scam toys that dangle the hope that they might be able to turn your child into the next Einstein. You might think that's too bad, and it should be "buyer beware", but the deception is many layers deep and few penetrate all the way.

        • (Score: 5, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 21 2018, @09:27AM (8 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 21 2018, @09:27AM (#625582)

          say his business is destroyed by a fire and he gets sick and ends up on welfare or disability

          Now might be an apt time to mention that Ayn Rand died while on Medicare and Social Security.

          Next time you encounter a Randian, be sure to mention this early and often in the conversation.

          -- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]

          • (Score: 3, Interesting) by khallow on Sunday January 21 2018, @03:10PM (7 children)

            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday January 21 2018, @03:10PM (#625652) Journal

            Now might be an apt time to mention that Ayn Rand died while on Medicare and Social Security.

            Because that is relevant how? This is a classic case of whataboutism or appeal to hypocrisy. Ayn Rand is a hypocrite therefore we don't have to think about her ideas. What is missed in such an insipid observation is that Ayn Rand tried to avoid being on Medicare and Social Security. From here [openculture.com], we have:

            One problem with Rand’s reasoning is this: whether “parasite” or titan of industry, none of us is anything more than human, subject to the same kinds of cruel twists of fate, the same existential uncertainty, the same illness and disease. Suffering may be unequally distributed to a great degree by human agen you, but nature and circumstance often have a way of evening the odds. Rand herself experienced such a leveling effect in her retirement. After undergoing surgery in 1974 for lung cancer caused by her heavy smoking, she found herself in straitened circumstances.

            Two years later, she was paired with social worker Evva Pryor, who gave an interview in 1998 about their relationship. “Rarely have I respected someone as much as I did Ayn Rand,” said Pryor. When asked about their philosophical disagreements, she replied, “My background was social work. That should tell you all you need to know about our differences.” Pryor was tasked with persuading Rand to accept Social Security and Medicare to help with mounting medical expenses.

            I had read enough to know that she despised government interference, and that she felt that people should and could live independently. She was coming to a point in her life where she was going to receive the very thing she didn’t like.... For me to do my job, she had to recognize that there were exceptions to her theory.... She had to see that there was such a thing as greed in this world.... She could be totally wiped out by medical bills if she didn’t watch it. Since she had worked her entire life and had paid into Social Security, she had a right to it. She didn’t feel that an individual should take help.

            Finally, Rand relented. “Whether she agreed or not is not the issue,” said Pryor, “She saw the necessity for both her and [her husband] Frank.” Or as Weiss puts it, “Reality had intruded upon her ideological pipedreams.” That's one way of interpreting the contradiction: that Rand’s philosophy, Objectivism, “has no practical purpose except to promote the economic interests of the people bankrolling it"---the sole function of her thought is to justify wealth, explain away poverty, and normalize the sort of Hobbesian war of all against all Rand saw as a societal ideal.

            Rand taught “there is no such thing as the public interest,” that programs like Social Security and Medicare steal from “creators” and illegitimately redistribute their wealth. This was a "sublimely enticing argument for wealthy businessmen who had no interest whatever in the public interest.... Yet the taxpayers of America paid Rand's and Frank O'Connor's medical expenses." Randians have offered many convoluted explanations for what her critics see as sheer hypocrisy. We may or may not find them persuasive.

            Let us note at this point, that Rand was born in 1905. So when she was persuaded to Social Security and Medicare around 1976, she had already voluntarily relinquished a considerable portion of the money that she could have obtained from the two programs (somewhere in excess of five years of Social Security and perhaps two years of medical bills from the lung cancer). Keep in mind she only lived till 1982.

            Nor do we see how well she would have done in the absence of such programs. After all, if she didn't have to pay into Social Security, maybe she and her husband would had enough retirement money to cover her final years.

            This is typical of the mean streak directed toward libertarian philosophies. Sure, the ideology is somewhat unrealistic, but it doesn't deserve this sort of contempt. Here someone tried hard to live by their ideals and succeeded to a considerable degree. Yet all we hear about is about the deathbed confession.

            • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 22 2018, @10:10PM (6 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 22 2018, @10:10PM (#626265)

              Yes actually it does deserve contempt, the libertarian philosophy has become mired down in naivety and claims to base itself in reality which is just beyond not true. It justifies feelings of greed for many people and erodes empathy for people in need of help.

              I don't believe that is what libertarian ideas are meant to be about, but that seems to be the end result. It has many evil anti-human aspects to it, primarily because most believers take the ideology to ridiculous extremes. The same thing happens with proponents of some welfare programs (to give you a more palatable analogy) who get so focused on fixing social problems that they don't realize their solutions are more harmful than good.

              If Rand was serious about her ideas she would not have accepted welfare, and yes that shoots a massive whole in her followers beliefs. If that doesn't show you how necessary social safety nets are, then you're beyond hope.

              • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday January 22 2018, @10:57PM (5 children)

                by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday January 22 2018, @10:57PM (#626309) Journal

                Yes actually it does deserve contempt, the libertarian philosophy has become mired down in naivety and claims to base itself in reality which is just beyond not true. It justifies feelings of greed for many people and erodes empathy for people in need of help.

                Utter nonsense. First, that complaint holds for most beliefs. They tend to be naive and based on personal self-interest. So nothing special for libertarianism there. Second, no it doesn't justify feelings of greed as you noted in your second paragraph.

                It has many evil anti-human aspects to it, primarily because most believers take the ideology to ridiculous extremes.

                What doesn't? You already mentioned welfare-based belief. I'll point out that science and religion both have this problem as well.

                If Rand was serious about her ideas she would not have accepted welfare, and yes that shoots a massive whole in her followers beliefs.

                And she did. She just didn't do it as long as you would have liked.

                If that doesn't show you how necessary social safety nets are, then you're beyond hope.

                If I force cannibalism via harsh restrictions on diet, does that prove how necessary cannibalism is? Just because one has to play the game in order to survive doesn't mean the game is necessary or desirable.

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 23 2018, @12:13AM (4 children)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 23 2018, @12:13AM (#626350)

                  Sweet jesus you are such a troll. Do you have scripts set up that notify you when an AC responds to you? Or you just use the "new" functionality? Either way you are either a) worst employee ever or b) unemployed.

                  • (Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday January 23 2018, @01:07AM (3 children)

                    by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday January 23 2018, @01:07AM (#626369) Journal
                    Rational argument often looks like dark magic to someone who isn't prepared for it.
                    • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday January 23 2018, @03:12AM (2 children)

                      by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Tuesday January 23 2018, @03:12AM (#626404) Journal

                      From this I can assume you're multiclassing Bard and Jester then?

                      --
                      I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
                      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 23 2018, @05:48PM (1 child)

                        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 23 2018, @05:48PM (#626663)

                        At least it is amusing how blind khal is to criticism. Must be slightly autistic or something to so drastically misconstrue criticism.

                        • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday January 23 2018, @08:38PM

                          by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Tuesday January 23 2018, @08:38PM (#626739) Journal

                          Don't conflate mad and bad, please. There is evil in this world, there are people who have given themselves over to it (to what end I don't know), and we are sometimes confronted with it. Mr. Hallow is almost certainly not autistic; he is merely an asshole, and a particular type of asshole that would sell his momma to Satan for a bag of Doritos if he thought Grand High Inquisitor Rand would approve of it.

                          --
                          I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
        • (Score: 3, Funny) by https on Monday January 22 2018, @06:26PM

          by https (5248) on Monday January 22 2018, @06:26PM (#626169) Journal

          Uh, no. Only he will consider himself useless trash then.

          I'd welcome him to Canada, except I think he'd have an aneurysm when he realized that nobody here (except for a few American-funded fringe groups) thinks taxes are theft.

          --
          Offended and laughing about it.
    • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 21 2018, @08:46AM (5 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 21 2018, @08:46AM (#625567)

      You misunderstand republicans. You are putting them in two groups: the rich and the misinformed. This is because you struggle to understand why lower-middle-class people would be republican.

      These are people with fundamentally different values. To them, accepting help that you don't desperately need is WRONG. When they are in poverty and struggling to pay the bills, accepting government help is something they MIGHT do, and they will feel bad if they do. They don't want the help even available, because that would be a temptation for both them and others. They take pride in being independent.

      Your preferred policy cuts into that independence. You would take away self-esteem, self-respect, pride, and hope. You would make them feel like children, inmates, beggars, parasites, and thieves. Of course they won't vote for that.

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 21 2018, @01:13PM (3 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 21 2018, @01:13PM (#625627)

        Yes, and this is why a UBI should be framed as a "dividend". It is the earned amount from participating and contributing to a society that is rich enough to afford a UBI.
        The only way someone can own billions of dollars worth of wealth is if everyone respects their right to own it.

        If society collapses, do you think we are going to respect foreign ownership of millions of acres of property and billions worth of assets? Fuck no, it will be "I've got a rifle and me and my friends are confiscating this lot. Eat the Rich!!" .

        So the choice is UBI or increasing inequality until we do kill the rich and violently redistribute wealth.
        And yeah, I've heard all the arguments about violent regime changes are always for the worse. Maybe so, but that will be cold comfort for the 1% who are now a head shorter.

        • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday January 22 2018, @10:59PM (2 children)

          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday January 22 2018, @10:59PM (#626310) Journal

          Yes, and this is why a UBI should be framed as a "dividend".

          No, don't "frame" it as such, make it be such. I have yet to see UBI advocates propose a good mechanism though.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 23 2018, @10:08PM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 23 2018, @10:08PM (#626797)

            It is very simple, incremental tax brackets that effectively reduce a person's UBI up until a person earns $X / year at which point they get zero benefit from UBI. This fixes the idiotic argument of "how will you fun it? It MAKES NO SENSE!!!?!?!" Of course it makes no sense when you stick to math you can do on your fingers :P

            • (Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday January 23 2018, @10:13PM

              by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday January 23 2018, @10:13PM (#626800) Journal
              Umm, we were talking about it as a "dividend" not this separate issue. For example, what's the set point for this UBI?
      • (Score: 3, Informative) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday January 22 2018, @06:00AM

        by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Monday January 22 2018, @06:00AM (#625963) Journal

        Well, buddy, THEIR preferred policy cuts into basic survival for those that aren't as stupidly prideful and self-centered. And at some point you need to make a...hah...realz or feelz decision. Thanks for admitting it comes down to delusional self-aggrandizing fantasies for the Rs in the end, though!

        --
        I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
  • (Score: 2, Insightful) by khallow on Sunday January 21 2018, @04:01AM (18 children)

    by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday January 21 2018, @04:01AM (#625513) Journal

    Since logic and reason might work better than appealing to basic decency:

    Among other things, those are actually civilized behavior.

    a healthy population is less of an economic drag

    You ought to examine the assumption that health care means a healthier population. In practice, it's often the reverse with considerable resources devoted to keeping sick people alive (an economic drag).

    lower costs of healthcare are obviously a benefit

    Except when they're higher costs of healthcare and hence, not a benefit.

    and redirection of massive insurance industries into more beneficial enterprises

    Like paying taxes on that health care?

    • (Score: 5, Touché) by Whoever on Sunday January 21 2018, @05:08AM (5 children)

      by Whoever (4524) on Sunday January 21 2018, @05:08AM (#625520) Journal

      lower costs of healthcare are obviously a benefit

      Except when they're higher costs of healthcare and hence, not a benefit.

      Are you claiming that healthcare costs are higher in countries with different methods of funding healthcare than the USA?

      • (Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday January 21 2018, @11:45AM (4 children)

        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday January 21 2018, @11:45AM (#625609) Journal

        Except when they're higher costs of healthcare and hence, not a benefit.

        Are you claiming that healthcare costs are higher in countries with different methods of funding healthcare than the USA?

        Every developed world country has problems with health care costs growing faster than their economies are. The US is unique in being the leader of high cost health care here, but far from unique in having the problem in the first place.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 22 2018, @10:12PM (3 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 22 2018, @10:12PM (#626268)

          Whataboutism, there are problems everywhere so we should ignore our bigger ones!! They're all the same anyway!!!

          As usual you are either a total fucking shill or a total fucking moron. I lean towards the former, but then again smart people can still be idiots.

          • (Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday January 23 2018, @01:05AM (2 children)

            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday January 23 2018, @01:05AM (#626368) Journal
            Since you didn't get what I wrote, let's outline the thread to that point. An earlier AC wrote:

            Citizens of the USA deserve access to healthcare services without placing their savings in jeopardy.

            followed later in response to a TMB post:

            Since logic and reason might work better than appealing to basic decency: a healthy population is less of an economic drag, lower costs of healthcare are obviously a benefit, and redirection of massive insurance industries into more beneficial enterprises would be better than simple middle managers who suck out wealth and contribute only suffering.

            Note the problems. First, there is this unwarranted assumption that the poster has a fix that is less of an economic drag, lower cost of health care, and redirects insurance industries into more beneficial enterprises. The US and the rest of the developed world wouldn't be in the mess they have been growing into for the past few decades, if that were the case.

            Second, there is this ill-defined and similarly unwarranted assertion that "citizens" deserve "access" to health care. The weaseling of the phrasing is such that it is already true. Everyone does have access to health care in the US. They just have to pay for it. So ignoring this glaring flaw, we have to instead consider what is meant: namely, that people are entitled to health care paid by other peoples' money. Before in the market example, your health care was restricted by your ability and desire to pay. Now, we have to find some other way to limit health care such as: death panels and similar decision making or standard-setting bodies, long wait times for services (the US Veterans Administration does this a lot with their more overworked hospitals), or simply having society fall apart when it can't meet all the many obligations it has created for itself (such as austerity-driven collapses in the EU today).

            And notice that the poster speaks of "access" not of actual health care or even more importantly, of good health. That doesn't promise anything useful. That's yet another reason to look on this with a great deal of skepticism.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 23 2018, @05:51PM (1 child)

              by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 23 2018, @05:51PM (#626665)

              "And notice that the poster speaks of "access" not of actual health care or even more importantly, of good health. That doesn't promise anything useful. That's yet another reason to look on this with a great deal of skepticism."

              As opposed to our current system where you pay exorbitant prices for sub standard care? You are an amazing person, maybe one day you'll retire to a circus tent where you can astound everyone with your block shaped head.

              • (Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday January 23 2018, @06:42PM

                by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday January 23 2018, @06:42PM (#626685) Journal

                As opposed to our current system where you pay exorbitant prices for sub standard care?

                Yes. Once again, "access" versus actual care. Let us keep in mind that "access" is one of the reasons for exorbitant prices for health care of somewhat lower quality than in much of the developed world. Lots of stuff is mandated to for coverage by insurance - which increases demand - which increases prices. And Medicaid has been cutting back on its services for a couple of decades due to these costs as well.

                To give a recent example, much has been made of mandated "free" birth control [wikipedia.org] (that is, birth control with no deductible) as part of health insurance per the past decade's Obamacare bill. While court cases involving religious freedom got the news, the real problem is that there already is widespread, cheap birth control. So it created an incentive to consume more expensive birth control procedures and those costs get passed back as higher insurance rates.

    • (Score: 4, Interesting) by deimtee on Sunday January 21 2018, @01:40PM (6 children)

      by deimtee (3272) on Sunday January 21 2018, @01:40PM (#625637) Journal

      The one low-cost thing that the USA could do, that would improve things greatly, would be to de-couple health insurance from employment. Make it illegal for an employer to have anything to do with your health care.
      Everybody who wants health insurance would have to buy their own. It would move things much closer to a true free market. Insurance companies would have to actually compete for customers instead of having cosy deals with employers and hospitals.

      (If you look up the history, employer health care was a way to get around government imposed wage rise limits in the second world war. Surely a true libertarian/republican/free marketeer would not be in favour of something that is a result of government regulation.)

      --
      If you cough while drinking cheap red wine it really cleans out your sinuses.
      • (Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday January 21 2018, @03:16PM (5 children)

        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday January 21 2018, @03:16PM (#625655) Journal

        The one low-cost thing that the USA could do, that would improve things greatly, would be to de-couple health insurance from employment. Make it illegal for an employer to have anything to do with your health care.

        It's already done. Health insurance doesn't need to be decoupled, it merely needs to be treated as a taxable benefit. Obamacare snuck that in via its excise tax on "Cadillac plans" which kick in 2020 and aren't adjusted for inflation.

        • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday January 22 2018, @07:19PM (4 children)

          by JoeMerchant (3937) on Monday January 22 2018, @07:19PM (#626194)

          Health insurance doesn't need to be decoupled, it merely needs to be treated as a taxable benefit.

          The tax issue is moot here, the issues is that employers negotiate big-block insurance deals at rates that individuals simply cannot. Individually sourced insurance is not only more expensive to start, but also subject to discriminatory rate hikes based on profiling.

          By combining everybody in one insurance pool, we rise and sink together at an equal rate. By only having large pools associated with large employers, those people benefit from the large group effect, while individually insured are discriminated against, higher rates with or without "pre-existing conditions," more drastic hikes in response to claims, etc.

          If you want to let the weak get culled from the herd, then, sure, keep the system we've got - it's great at singling out people with problems and kicking them while they are down.

          --
          🌻🌻 [google.com]
          • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday January 22 2018, @08:18PM (3 children)

            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday January 22 2018, @08:18PM (#626211) Journal

            The tax issue is moot here

            No, it's not. The tax issue allows such companies to buy about 50% more insurance for the same amount of money.

            • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday January 22 2018, @08:34PM (2 children)

              by JoeMerchant (3937) on Monday January 22 2018, @08:34PM (#626222)

              The tax issue is moot here

              No, it's not. The tax issue allows such companies to buy about 50% more insurance for the same amount of money.

              I think you lost this particular game of three card monty... Individuals have methods to deduct the cost of healthcare insurance pre-tax. The tax issue is not the reason for the high rate disparity, the lack of negotiation power is the much larger component.

              One single example from 2001 - my wife's privately sourced health insurance rates tripled after our first baby delivery cost the insurance company $20K - effectively, her rate jumped up $10K per year with our existing provider, and others wouldn't even insure her due to "pre-existing condition." That's got nothing to do with taxes.

              --
              🌻🌻 [google.com]
              • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday January 22 2018, @08:41PM (1 child)

                by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday January 22 2018, @08:41PM (#626227) Journal

                The tax issue is not the reason for the high rate disparity

                Ahem. [zanebenefits.com]

                The study found that in 2014 individual health insurance plans offered on the ACA’s exchanges are comparable to, or lower priced than, similar employer-sponsored plans. Additionally, most exchange shoppers have a wider variety of plans than the typical employer-sponsored offering.

                • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday January 22 2018, @09:31PM

                  by JoeMerchant (3937) on Monday January 22 2018, @09:31PM (#626244)

                  2014 individual health insurance plans

                  Sorry, I'm a little out of touch since I work for a big company now - is this referring to Obamacare?

                  Can't argue with the wider variety thing, any employer sponsored "choices" I have ever had in healthcare insurance have been limited to two, maybe three selections - the cheap plan, and the pay us up front in increased premiums for benefits you may or may not claim plans - which never, ever work out to the ultimate financial benefit of the insured - maybe break-even, on a high claims year.

                  --
                  🌻🌻 [google.com]
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 21 2018, @10:24PM (4 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 21 2018, @10:24PM (#625837)

      Nobody who anyone takes seriously has proposed repealing Regan's requirement that emergency rooms treat the uninsured, so saving money by not trying to keep the dying alive is not an option on the table. Universal health insurance means people get early/preventative care which means a healthier population... the lack of it means people wait until they need much more expensive treatment.

      • (Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday January 21 2018, @11:43PM (3 children)

        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday January 21 2018, @11:43PM (#625875) Journal

        Universal health insurance means people get early/preventative care which means a healthier population...

        Unless it means that people get treated for costly problems that wouldn't bother them before they die of something else. There's a reason that insurance companies routinely stay away from early/preventative care.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 22 2018, @10:15PM (2 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 22 2018, @10:15PM (#626273)

          Yes there is a reason, they are greedy fucks. Half the time they won't even pay out for costly problems or only partially cover it. Letting millions of people get preventative care is way more expensive than the occasional massive bill they can fight and not even fully pay.

          Grow up / get real / stop making horrible arguments to cover your ignorance and sociopath beliefs.

          • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday January 22 2018, @10:17PM (1 child)

            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday January 22 2018, @10:17PM (#626275) Journal
            Greedy doesn't mean stupid. If there were money to be saved with preventative care, they'd all be doing it voluntarily.
            • (Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 23 2018, @12:17AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 23 2018, @12:17AM (#626351)

              You're right, they greedy and evil. I forgot to add that there. Why save money through preventative care when they can just jack up premiums and deny coverage? Your blind faith in "the market" is staggering.

  • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Sunday January 21 2018, @05:44AM (46 children)

    by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Sunday January 21 2018, @05:44AM (#625529) Homepage Journal

    Lower costs of healthcare? Have you at all been paying attention the past few years? Paying for the poor's healthcare out of my wallet has massively increased the cost of healthcare for everybody.

    And, yes, you'd damned well better have a damned good, logical argument if you want me to roll over for being robbed.

    --
    My rights don't end where your fear begins.
    • (Score: 5, Informative) by Whoever on Sunday January 21 2018, @05:56AM (45 children)

      by Whoever (4524) on Sunday January 21 2018, @05:56AM (#625534) Journal

      Paying for the poor's healthcare out of my wallet has massively increased the cost of healthcare for everybody.

      Citation? "poor's healthcare" is paid for/subsidized out of taxes, not your healthcare bills.

      The current healthcare "system" means that the costs in the USA are the highest of any western country. US governments (I think, including States) spend more per person (averaged over all 300+ million population) than the UK, but only covers 1/4 of the population.

      • (Score: 1, Flamebait) by The Mighty Buzzard on Sunday January 21 2018, @06:58AM (44 children)

        by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Sunday January 21 2018, @06:58AM (#625545) Homepage Journal

        Citation? "poor's healthcare" is paid for/subsidized out of taxes, not your healthcare bills.

        Whose hands the dollar bills get touched by on its way to treat Homey the Clown's crack addiction is irrelevant, as is what you care to label it.

        The current healthcare "system" means that the costs in the USA are the highest of any western country. US governments (I think, including States) spend more per person (averaged over all 300+ million population) than the UK, but only covers 1/4 of the population.

        That is not a logical argument. That is an emotional argument because the foundational premises are entirely emotional. Would you care to try again? What I'll be looking for is a logical argument as to why I should give a fuck not that "we're not as this or that as Europe" or "you're an heartless bastard if you don't want to give me all your money to spend on my cause of the day".

        --
        My rights don't end where your fear begins.
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 21 2018, @07:13AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 21 2018, @07:13AM (#625547)

          :(
          no can reason
          only can take stance
          simple numerical calcs
          insufficient

        • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 21 2018, @08:26AM (4 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 21 2018, @08:26AM (#625563)

          What I'll be looking for is a logical argument as to why I should give a fuck

          1. The US is paying more money, for worse results, than many other nations. The current system is patently less efficient than other implementations. Since the US, as a whole, seems to have decided that everyone should have access to medical care (the political disagreement in government is over how it should be paid for), should we not push for a system which overall requires less tax money?

          2. You never know where the next great minds will come from. For example, Steven Hawking was not from a very wealthy family, and without support of socialised medicine, he would likely not have survived long enough to make some of his most important contributions.

          3. People are disease reservoirs. If a large number of people are not able to afford medicine, the likelihood of an outbreak or epidemic of a serious disease is significantly raised, for the entire population.

          4. High medical costs and uncertainty ("will my insurance cover this?") contribute to a reduction of the appeal of living in the US for valuable skilled workers. Guess who's left in the voting population as the wealthy, educated, people emigrate.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 21 2018, @08:56AM (2 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 21 2018, @08:56AM (#625570)

            I think the government should pay to stop infectious disease. We should cure those that can be cured, and euthanize the rest.

            I even think the government should pay when you can't possibly negotiate, for example when you are found unconscious.

            For the rest though, you need to pay your own way in the world.

            • (Score: 2) by fritsd on Sunday January 21 2018, @01:55PM (1 child)

              by fritsd (4586) on Sunday January 21 2018, @01:55PM (#625640) Journal

              I think the government should pay to stop infectious disease.

              Well, your government didn't.

              it reduced the budget of the CDC by 17% [businessinsider.com].
              (that article I found was from 2017-05-23, I don't know if it has changed again in the meantime)

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 21 2018, @05:05PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 21 2018, @05:05PM (#625701)

                The CDC does not pay to cure me if I have an infectious disease. They simply aren't involved. They aren't helping, so we should cut their budget.

          • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Sunday January 21 2018, @09:05PM

            by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Sunday January 21 2018, @09:05PM (#625801) Homepage Journal

            Three's a valid argument. You have my vote on subsidizing immunizations but only if such proves necessary.

            One and four are solved by not subsidizing healthcare in any way.

            Two would be far easier and more accurately applied to abortion. Are you sure you want to go that route?

            --
            My rights don't end where your fear begins.
        • (Score: 2) by Whoever on Sunday January 21 2018, @05:37PM (37 children)

          by Whoever (4524) on Sunday January 21 2018, @05:37PM (#625715) Journal

          Whose hands the dollar bills get touched by on its way to treat Homey the Clown's crack addiction is irrelevant, as is what you care to label it.

          Yes, it is. You just can't stand that I pointed out that you are wrong.

          I find it interesting that you attempt to massage your own ego by blaming healthcare costs on the recipient. Perhaps it's easier on you to blame others than to think that there are many hard-working poor who need healthcare through no fault of their own?

          It's classic "I've got mine, fuck you".

          • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Sunday January 21 2018, @09:06PM (36 children)

            by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Sunday January 21 2018, @09:06PM (#625802) Homepage Journal

            Look at what you said here...

            who need healthcare through no fault of their own

            Now add "through no fault of mine either".

            --
            My rights don't end where your fear begins.
            • (Score: 2) by Whoever on Sunday January 21 2018, @09:51PM (16 children)

              by Whoever (4524) on Sunday January 21 2018, @09:51PM (#625824) Journal

              As I wrote "I've got mine, fuck you".

              • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Sunday January 21 2018, @10:55PM (15 children)

                by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Sunday January 21 2018, @10:55PM (#625855) Homepage Journal

                It has nothing to do with "fuck you". It has to do with "You will not take what is mine from me by force. If you want it, convince me.".

                --
                My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                • (Score: 2) by Pav on Monday January 22 2018, @04:17AM (12 children)

                  by Pav (114) on Monday January 22 2018, @04:17AM (#625943)

                  "You will not take what's mine by force"? Interesting idea. Brazil tried that - no social security, extermination squads for urban poor scum who kept breeding, only taxing for what's "important" for wealthy citizens, and pushing that tax bill downwards etc... etc... It turns out that if enough people are poor you have to spend a lot more resources on keeping what you have. High walled compounds, armed guards etc... are inconvenient and expensive, as is kidnap insurance. Being under constant seige by the poor, and langushing in a stagnant economy with not much wealth to capture at other levels of society, well, life at the top turns out to be less fun even for the super rich. Lula had his problems, but Brazil became much more dynamic, more wealth was created (Brazil became the "B" in BRIC), and became a little less unsafe (which isn't saying TOO much), though apparently crime has shot back up to Syria levels in the last couple of years - I wonder why?

                  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday January 22 2018, @05:06AM (11 children)

                    by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Monday January 22 2018, @05:06AM (#625948) Homepage Journal

                    I'd prefer an honest thief over a communist any day of the week, thanks. At least the proper thief doesn't try to tell me what he's doing is moral. Plus I can shoot thief.

                    --
                    My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                    • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 22 2018, @10:18PM (4 children)

                      by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 22 2018, @10:18PM (#626276)

                      I think I found the problem. The slightly older folks on here are still victims of the RED SCOURGE! Communists? You are a scared little fool.

                      • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday January 23 2018, @05:16PM (3 children)

                        by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Tuesday January 23 2018, @05:16PM (#626636) Homepage Journal

                        Anyone who doesn't see communism as an enemy of humanity is either a fool or an enemy of humanity themselves. It has never brought anything except abject poverty and self destruction to any nation that it has touched.

                        --
                        My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 23 2018, @05:55PM (2 children)

                          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 23 2018, @05:55PM (#626667)

                          Try being less of an idiot mmmkay? No one is advocating a switch to communism, but you're being naive if you think it failed due to it's own failings. The US and co. had an entire covert war against it, not to mention that so far most revolutions have ended up with a dictator in charge. Quite a far cry from what communism is supposed to actually be.

                          So far the massive destruction has come from the US as we invaded communist countries because they're eeeeevillll. For a libertarian I don't know how you can integrate that fact into your brain. The capitalists literally destroyed other countries for trying out a different system of government. Earth to libertard come in!

                          • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday January 23 2018, @06:11PM (1 child)

                            by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Tuesday January 23 2018, @06:11PM (#626673) Homepage Journal

                            Quite a far cry from what communism is supposed to actually be.

                            Yes, and doesn't the fact that it has failed to emerge every single time it has been tried on any scale clue you in that there might be a fatal flaw in the ideology itself? Here, I'll spell it out for you: Any ideology that requires fundamentally altering human nature to work is never going to work.

                            --
                            My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                            • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday January 23 2018, @08:47PM

                              by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Tuesday January 23 2018, @08:47PM (#626747) Journal

                              Amen, brother Buzzard. I've been saying that for ages. Communism does not and cannot work, and it does not and cannot work for the same reason laissez-faire capitalism does not and cannot work. You are so close, so, so, SO close, to having the lightbulb moment...

                              --
                              I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
                    • (Score: 2) by Pav on Tuesday January 23 2018, @12:19AM (5 children)

                      by Pav (114) on Tuesday January 23 2018, @12:19AM (#626353)

                      It seems you've regressed FAR past even the level of Somalia - even when there is no nation state it will be your tribe demanding that you contribute (if you are able). Even a chimp band will demand you take time out from "earning" (ie. foraging) to keep watch, defend the territory, or pick parasites off your neighbours. If you refuse too much you will be attacked and driven off... how unfair for animals who advanced enough to share your total disregard for others!!! Thieves!!! These kinds of requirements (and responses to shirkers) have been observed in animals as primitive as sticklebacks (small fish). Perhaps you've had an aneurism in your brain stem somewhere.

                      • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday January 23 2018, @05:21PM (4 children)

                        by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Tuesday January 23 2018, @05:21PM (#626639) Homepage Journal

                        You really cannot understand the concept of "I will give the shirt off my back if someone needs it but if they try to take it I will shoot them in the face", can you? The people you try to paint as heartless, aren't; they're just sick of finding your hand in their pocket every time they turn around.

                        --
                        My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 23 2018, @05:58PM (2 children)

                          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 23 2018, @05:58PM (#626668)

                          Universal healthcare would put money back into your pocket with lower costs and better preventative care, along with improving the general economic well being of the country. Y'know, cause sick people have a hard time being productive. But you can't get over the simple intro of "MOAR TAXES!!@!@! mrghbhblbbbllagghaaaf THEFT brakakaka."

                          Appeals to reason? Don't work.
                          Appeals to humanity? Make them laugh, no go.
                          Appeals to greed? Somehow trumped by even stupider greed.

                          You are a fool.

                          • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday January 23 2018, @06:14PM (1 child)

                            by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Tuesday January 23 2018, @06:14PM (#626675) Homepage Journal

                            Like it has everywhere else? There's not a single example of socialized medicine anywhere in the world that I'd take over the US system prior to Obama fucking with it. Thanks all the same but I prefer the days when anyone with a decent job could afford healthcare and receive it in a timely manner.

                            --
                            My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                            • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 23 2018, @06:30PM

                              by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 23 2018, @06:30PM (#626680)

                              Ah yes, redefining reality to suit your preconceptions. How astute of you! I wish I'd thought of that first.

                              It is shocking the number of assumptions you make, and your vast ignorance about other systems. Be ignorant, at least your sharing it publicly so other people can get a dose of reality about who they're "working" with.

                        • (Score: 2) by Pav on Wednesday January 24 2018, @02:07AM

                          by Pav (114) on Wednesday January 24 2018, @02:07AM (#626906)

                          Social animals even down to loosely social insects understand tit-for-tat punishment for shirking social responsibilities (Robert Sapolsky is interesting on this). The wider society defines a shirker (so good luck with your appeals to volunteerism). Given your politics though you've got an excellent deal in the US because your society defines the unemployed and poor as shirkers... kind of like England when it was also in its mass incarceration phase and ejecting undesirables to the USA, then later Australia.

                • (Score: 2) by Whoever on Monday January 22 2018, @06:48PM (1 child)

                  by Whoever (4524) on Monday January 22 2018, @06:48PM (#626180) Journal

                  "If they would rather die," said Scrooge, "they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population."

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 21 2018, @09:55PM (18 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 21 2018, @09:55PM (#625826)

              As has been said before, then please return all the benefits you've received through tax funded infrastructure and services. Do it now or shut the hell up you hypocritical piece of crap.

              • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Sunday January 21 2018, @10:58PM (17 children)

                by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Sunday January 21 2018, @10:58PM (#625857) Homepage Journal

                Oh, you mean all the stuff my taxes paid for and I owe zero debt either financial or moral for? Yeah, that's what I thought you meant, dipshit.

                --
                My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 22 2018, @05:17AM (7 children)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 22 2018, @05:17AM (#625953)

                  Your ignorance is pretty epic, but fun to see you triggered.

                  • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday January 22 2018, @05:36AM (6 children)

                    by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Monday January 22 2018, @05:36AM (#625956) Homepage Journal

                    Missed on both clauses. That's some impressive dipshittery you have going there!

                    --
                    My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 22 2018, @10:21PM (5 children)

                      by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 22 2018, @10:21PM (#626279)

                      You keep sticking your head in the sand. I just hope the rest of the country does better than you and in 5-15 years we get to hear your bitching about universal healthcare. Then you'll fall and break your hip and continue bitching. Cause that's all you are, a bitchy entitled little twat.

                      • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday January 23 2018, @05:22PM (4 children)

                        by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Tuesday January 23 2018, @05:22PM (#626641) Homepage Journal

                        I think you need to look up the word "entitled" and then rethink which side of the debate are "bitchy entitled little twats".

                        --
                        My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 23 2018, @06:01PM (3 children)

                          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 23 2018, @06:01PM (#626669)

                          Right, cause wanting universal healthcare for others when I happen to be perfectly healthy is "entitled". It must be a sad life being so selfish all the time, will probably be on your deathbed when the crushing existential weight of your own hubris lets you see your true self.

                          You want to pretend you're magnanimous, but you're tied down with dogma that is selfish and greedy. We can only point out the inconsistencies, but you have to man up and come to terms with them.

                          • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday January 23 2018, @06:16PM (2 children)

                            by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Tuesday January 23 2018, @06:16PM (#626677) Homepage Journal

                            You are a selfish little cunt if you're wanting me to do the paying for it, yes. Charity is giving from your own pocket. Giving from someone else's pocket is "receiving stolen goods".

                            --
                            My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                            • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 23 2018, @06:32PM (1 child)

                              by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 23 2018, @06:32PM (#626682)

                              Ah yes, the old "taxes are theft!" bit. It's a big goddamn merry-go-round where you start off at batshit crazy, make various arguments, fail, then just start back at batshit crazy! Capital job my good bloke.

                              • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday January 23 2018, @08:49PM

                                by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Tuesday January 23 2018, @08:49PM (#626748) Journal

                                He's a real piece-a-work, ain't he? But I think you've uncovered something interesting: this is two or three times on this thread that he's been reduced to autism-screeching "TAXES ARE THEFT!!!!!1111ELEVENTYONE" when confronted with reality. In other words, you've exposed one of what amount to his religious beliefs.

                                --
                                I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 22 2018, @03:04PM (8 children)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 22 2018, @03:04PM (#626087)

                  Oh I see. You must not have been born in a public hospital and you started working right out of the womb. Then you never went to elementary school or high school. Must have been home schooled. Quite the early pull yourself up by the boot strings type. Very commendable.

                  • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday January 22 2018, @04:00PM (7 children)

                    by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Monday January 22 2018, @04:00PM (#626110) Homepage Journal

                    Can you genuinely not tell the difference between parents fulfilling the obligation they took on in having a child and someone actually owing a debt? What a fucking moron.

                    --
                    My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 22 2018, @10:24PM (6 children)

                      by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 22 2018, @10:24PM (#626281)

                      Every public system works only because you have aggregated enough people into it. The cost of educating you was not carried solely by your parents. Your share of public infrastructure is not carried only by you. You are whining about taxes, then when asked to pay us back for all the services used you switch to "I / my parents paid for it!" So taxes aren't theft when they are useful to you, but they are when you don't like them. You're such a fucking tool, hopefully fewer people argue with you and just mod you down to flamebait when you're being stupid.

                      • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday January 23 2018, @05:25PM (5 children)

                        by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Tuesday January 23 2018, @05:25PM (#626644) Homepage Journal

                        Yes, it was. They paid what was asked of them in taxes. When you pay for something you are entitled to it. When you do not pay for something, you are not entitled to it. That's how "entitled" works.

                        --
                        My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                        • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 23 2018, @06:11PM (4 children)

                          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 23 2018, @06:11PM (#626672)

                          Still the fool I see. Was algebra hard? I'm just asking because you seem to have trouble thinking beyond a single simplistic dimension.

                          Maybe this will help, "you need to pay back all the services you used at the market rate minus the discounted socially aggregated benefit rate." This also means that you must kill yourself (not saying you should do that, but if you want to square up with your idea of "taxes are theft" then its your only choice) to repay all the dead soldiers that fought for your right to freedom. I mean shit isn't free right? Why should you get "freedom" when you didn't do shit for it? You'll also need to bequeath all your money to slave reparations since a massive amount of infrastructure and wealth was generated by their labor. I mean you're not pro-slavery right? You believe people should be paid for their hard work right? Otherwise how will they ever be not poor?

                          Oh, anything inherited is totally off limits. I mean why should you get any benefit from the work of others? You gotta earn that shit bro! So donate any inheritance to whatever government agency you love best, along with all the above, and we'll call it even. I mean, you aren't a THIEF right? Cause otherwise you'll just get shot, according to your rules anyway. We may have been able to work in a waiver for the death part, perhaps a lifetime repayment system where you get an extra 20% tax rate, but if you're stealing shit we gotta put you down!

                          • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday January 23 2018, @06:18PM (3 children)

                            by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Tuesday January 23 2018, @06:18PM (#626679) Homepage Journal

                            You realize by this insane clown logic that you owe a moral and financial debt to Wal-Mart, Big Pharma, and even Big Tobacco, yes?

                            --
                            My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                            • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 23 2018, @06:36PM (2 children)

                              by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 23 2018, @06:36PM (#626684)

                              I'm not the one trying to be a greedy bastard and avoid my responsibilities to my fellow citizens. I'm not the one supporting evil fuckers who play your greed for their own benefit. I am the one advocating for improving society with universal healthcare and higher taxes on the rich, and the data backs me up. Go ahead and cite whatever bullshit you'd like, make excuses, you'll still just be a greedy bastard advocating for an obviously broken system. You are just on the top of the garbage heap at this moment so you don't care what is below you, that is IF we believe your claims of personal success.

                              • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday January 23 2018, @08:50PM (1 child)

                                by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Tuesday January 23 2018, @08:50PM (#626752) Journal

                                He claims he's a small business owner if I remember right. I'd be very interested in knowing which business that was, precisely...

                                --
                                I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
                                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 23 2018, @10:22PM

                                  by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 23 2018, @10:22PM (#626804)

                                  Being an idiot he probably doesn't realize that proper tax adjustments wouldn't drown out small businesses, and hopefully would actually lower tax burdens for poor-middle-small-biz by having the megacorps and ultra rich pay their fair share. Guess he's just another temporarily embarrassed billionaire.