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Sweden will do whatever it takes, including sending in the army, to end a wave of violence that has seen a string of deadly shootings, Prime Minister Stefan Lofven said in Wednesday.
Sweden's murder rate is relatively low in international terms, but gang violence has surged in recent years and Swedes are worried that the police are unable to cope.
In 2016, the latest year for which official statistics are available, 106 people were murdered in Sweden, a country of 10 million.
But Swedish TV reported there were over 300 shootings, mostly in turf battles between gangs over drugs, protection rackets and prostitution.
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Swedish PM Does Not Rule Out Use of Army to End Gang Violence
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The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
If all the world's economists were laid end to end, we wouldn't reach a
conclusion.
-- William Baumol
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 26 2018, @08:04PM (40 children)
It seems like that's an important question.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by janrinok on Monday February 26 2018, @08:10PM (37 children)
Why? It is totally irrelevant to the story, which is about the fact that some doubt the police's ability to cope with the high level of crime and might need reinforcing with Military Aid to the Civil Power (MACP). MACP is something that many countries consider including the US and most of Europe. For example, after any terrorist attack the military is often put on the streets to supplement the police force. Why should the fact that Sweden is considering the same mean we have to know who is in the gangs?
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 26 2018, @08:15PM (6 children)
That makes a pretty big difference on tolerance of the use of military force against the peoples involved.
If many of them are illegal immigrants then they would fall into either of the first two groups, which while still maybe frowned upon depending on laws in Sweden, probably would be endorsed by the people. The latter however should be heavily condemned by everyone, since it sets a bad precedent towards using the military against civilians in other circumstances, like protest against government overreach, or during riots when actual citizens voices are no longer being heard.
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 26 2018, @08:48PM (3 children)
I would condemn it, unfortunately you now have criminal gangs using hand grenades [wikipedia.org] (a weapon of war). The Swedish police cannot deal with this so the government need to secure their borders* and seek international approval and oversight before deploying troops. Unfortunately, there's no way to stop the violence from escalating.
* The weapons are being imported from the Balkans but yes against more people exhibiting the same behaviour too.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 26 2018, @10:14PM (2 children)
Says the cowardly Anonymous Coward racist twit, who is formenting violence as hard as he can get it.
(Score: 2) by Mykl on Tuesday February 27 2018, @01:58AM (1 child)
AC calls out AC for being AC.
I re-read GP's post very carefully after your accusation. They make the point that these weapons are coming in from outside of the country (the Balkans in particular), but make no claim about the racial makeup of the gangs who are buying the weapons. Their statement about closing the borders seems, to me, to be about stopping the flow of weapons rather than people. On the face of it, there is no evidence of racism in the post (perhaps there is a bit of gang-ism).
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 28 2018, @10:04AM
The AC said nothing about race, just about the other AC saying the violence was inevitable, which means, oh third AC (or Mkyl), we will just have to say it is all your fault when they come and kill all the men, the women, the children, the dogs and cats, the hamsters (Remember Pebbles!! [mercurynews.com]), the goldfish, and the cockroaches with their "hyperbaric weapons systems" which they will claim are legal under the laws of war, but it will not make any difference for you, oh intervening AC! All will die! None will be Spared! Vikings do not take yougurt! [youtube.com] It's not yogurt! In the face!
(Score: 3, Informative) by bob_super on Monday February 26 2018, @09:33PM (1 child)
The Swedes are presented with a situation that they hope to be temporary, so they use a resource that's available to deal with it.
European countries don't have gun-toting cops at every street corner. They also don't have gung-ho brainwashed military nutjobs (exceptions happen) who only know their weapon as a way to handle problems.
So you put the People serving in the military, and already on the payroll, in the street to protect the People and dissuade or stop some bad guys.
That is not your "tolerance of the use of military force" threat. It's more humans on the ground assisting the cops.
In a similar vein, when some nutjob attacked a military group patrolling in a Paris airport, that was treated as a police matter, and handled by civilian procedures and justice system.
But you're apparently one of those many paranoids who will never believe that the people are not just always on the cusp of being oppressed by big bad government.
(Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 27 2018, @02:49AM
So the police in the UK aren’t carrying guns now? Educate yourself.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 26 2018, @08:21PM (14 children)
See Posse Comitatus Act [wikipedia.org]
American governance is extremely leery of the Federal Government; after all, the American Revolution was fought to free the colonies from a far-off, centralized military power that had little respect for representing citizens.
(Score: 3, Informative) by janrinok on Monday February 26 2018, @08:49PM (4 children)
So in the US the National Guard are not used to help during regional disasters? That is MACP, it doesn't seem to be too outlawed there. Any time that military personnel are used at the behest of local or regional government in any task other than war fighting, it is usually under MACP. I suspect if you look closely you will see that it happens quite often in the US.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 26 2018, @08:54PM (1 child)
Please, read the whole linked article for a pretty good picture.
(Score: 2) by janrinok on Wednesday February 28 2018, @05:47AM
One political party in Sweden has 'linked public concern' with the issue with immigration. The populist party are anti-immigration, and so they will try to link any of Sweden's problems to immigration whenever they can, It does not make it so. There is no proven correlation between these particular crimes and the immigrants, although there are lots of other crimes that can be easily and justifiably linked to them. The problems that are causing concern are "drugs, protection rackets and prostitution", all of which existed before the current influx of immigrants.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by frojack on Monday February 26 2018, @09:09PM (1 child)
In spite of the name, the National guard is under State Government control when deployed as a police force in the US.
Perhaps that's a distinction with out a difference in your mind.
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Tuesday February 27 2018, @01:52AM
Actually. I think that, in this case, it is a distinction without a difference.
IIUC, Sweden does *not* have a federal system like the US. As such, any National Guard analog in Sweden would have to be controlled by a central entity, since there is no Federal/state government separation in Sweden, as there is in the US.
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Monday February 26 2018, @08:53PM (4 children)
Wrong. America routinely use military servicepeople in a police capacity. If you'd like to see it today, go take a trip to New York City. You'll most likely see armed troops in BDUs in the Port Authority Bus Terminal and in the weird shopping mall next to the 9/11 memorial and Freedom Tower.
The Posse Comitatus Act doesn't apply, because these troops are National Guard troops ordered by the state governor. But being state-deployed instead of federally doesn't somehow make them not military troops.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 26 2018, @08:58PM (3 children)
Not only are the National Guard units of a State sourced from citizens of that State, but also the Governor of the State is the one who deploys and ultimately commands them.
It's not that the military is helping the States via the National Guard, but rather that the States are helping the military via the National Guard—that's why the National Guard units are considered to be part of the the "reserve components" of the military.
(Score: 2) by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us on Monday February 26 2018, @09:03PM (2 children)
Yes, the Governor commands them.... and then allows direct Federal control of them when FEMA assumes command of a situation under Title 32, again at the Governor's request. Not to mention Defense Support of Civilian Activities, where Federal troops may provide support roles as well. https://training.fema.gov/emiweb/is/is75/student%20manual/student%20manual.pdf [fema.gov]
This sig for rent.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 26 2018, @09:05PM (1 child)
I'm not sure what your point is.
(Score: 2) by aristarchus on Wednesday February 28 2018, @10:46AM
I am not sure there is a point.
(Score: 2) by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us on Monday February 26 2018, @08:59PM (1 child)
Which doesn't apply at all to the National Guard in supporting state law enforcement at the Governor's request. It is usually only common to have units actually on patrol during natural disasters; usually the support they provide either provides intelligence or relieves sworn law enforcement of non-enforcement duties so they can focus on enforcement.
And five minutes of research shows that half of Sweden's military is a "home guard" which is not unlike the Guard and Reserve - though not necessarily in command and control.
As for our country.... Wait for another school shooting or two - eventually we'll have National Guard troops in our schools I'm sure.
This sig for rent.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 26 2018, @09:09PM
Your comment and the necessary reply have both already appeared in this thread. Your comment is redundant.
(Score: 2) by Thexalon on Monday February 26 2018, @10:58PM (1 child)
Which of course in no way applies here, because Sweden isn't the USA.
That said, I'm not convinced the US response to bad guys with military firepower has been much better. If your problem is "criminal gang with enough weaponry to outgun your police forces", which seems like the least-bad choice:
A. Use your military when necessary to fight these gangs?
B. Turn your cops into military-like units (SWAT, the cops with tanks and APCs, etc)?
C. Allow gangs with sufficient firepower to function basically unmolested by the authorities?
I'm pretty sure option C isn't what anybody wants. Option A, while bad, at least offers the possibility that the army will come in, do a specific job, and head back to base, and the bureaucratic negotiating involved each time they do that means they won't be called in unless they really are needed. Option B, by contrast, means those souped-up cops are there to stay, and if they don't have anything to do they'll find something to do.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 27 2018, @01:01AM
Gordon Lightfoot's "Black Day in July", about the Detroit riots and imposition of martial law:
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 26 2018, @08:26PM (1 child)
A nation state does not define a people's values; rather, a people's values define a nation state.
When you change the people, you change the nation state.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 26 2018, @08:35PM
Go soak yer head, it's looking a bit dry and puffy.
(Score: 2, Flamebait) by frojack on Monday February 26 2018, @09:25PM (6 children)
Not at all irrelevant!
Sweden went from a peaceful civil society of very few local sub cultures to a dangerous country full of unemployable middle eastern immagrents invited in by their government over the objections of the citizens. What an astounding turnabout in just three or four years.
It is an arrestable offense to denegrate the refugees. So now they call them gangs.
The country feels so imperiled it contemplates calling out the army.
And you think you can hand wave it away as irrelevant?
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 3, Informative) by c0lo on Monday February 26 2018, @10:01PM (5 children)
'Sweden has had gang problems since the '90s' [thelocal.se]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 26 2018, @10:42PM (1 child)
People used to think that a $5 trillion national debt was a serious problem in the 1990s; now, the national U.S. debt is $20 trillion—the 90s don't look so bad...
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Monday February 26 2018, @10:54PM
Of course they are comparable, having the same nature (as opposed to apples to oranges).
If you have something to say otherwise, by all means table it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
(Score: -1, Redundant) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 27 2018, @04:22AM (2 children)
> 'Sweden has had gang problems since the '90s'
Scratch the surface and you will find that is when you see moslem settlers [thereligionofpeace.com] establlishing territories inside the borders of Sweden. Frojack is right about how Sweden has changed but is only commenting on the second tipping point not the first. Already those areas were dangerous by the turn of the century but they were fewer in number and you could at least visit them during the day without being in a very large group.
Even the post office which has delivered to every address in the nation since the the 17th century has been forced to stop delivering inside the moslem colonies. It is just too dangerous for both staff and equipment.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 27 2018, @04:36PM (1 child)
Trolly troll troll go away
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 28 2018, @09:58AM
Just because the facts [soylentnews.org] rub you [jewishmag.com] the wrong way does not mean that everyone else is trolling.
http://speisa.com/modules/articles/index.php/item.532/paramedics-in-sweden-now-demands-military-equipment.html [speisa.com]
(Score: 2) by unauthorized on Monday February 26 2018, @09:45PM
Because maybe, just maybe there are certain policies which lead to the rise of crime that, if addressed, will reverse the trend of one of the formerly most peaceful societies in the world now considers military interventions to deal with rampant criminality.
You know, treating the disease rather than treating the symptoms and ignoring the underlying causes which make it progress in the first place.
(Score: 0, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 26 2018, @10:36PM (3 children)
because you goofy bastard. people are sick of the covering up of the goddamn rapes and shit these stupid monkeys are committing. why are you running interference for propagandists who enable rapists?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 26 2018, @10:55PM (2 children)
Infowars devotee?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 27 2018, @01:03AM (1 child)
I have been putting something in their drinking water, and directing chem-trails over their general position for two weeks now. It is rewarding to see the results of your work, especially when you work for the government.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 27 2018, @02:03AM
Ya I bet! Stopping cavities is def good work, and those contrails do stop some of the solar rays from warming the earth too far. I applaud you sir for fighting the good fight.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 27 2018, @03:03AM
Seriously? Really, seriously? Here, you have the opportunity to identify where the crime wave arises, and who the perpetrators are - but you say that it is irrelevant? And, you probably insist that everyone else keep their eyes wide shut. Immigrants/invaders from shithole countries are pretty easy to identify.
(Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Monday February 26 2018, @08:20PM
Probably some sort of Viking. The good news for Sweden is that the won't need to upgrade their Caroleans to Great War Infantry because the "march" promotion enables them to heal each turn.
To be fair, Sweden has researched Artillery so these barbarians shouldn't be much of a problem.
(Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 27 2018, @04:46AM
> Who are in these gangs? It seems like that's an important question.
The press in different European countries use different euphemisms. In France it is "youths" and in Denmark it is "underprivileged" and in Sweden it is "gangs" and you get the idea. They all refer to islam. There is even an islamist party [jihadwatch.org] in Swedish politics. It is just not allowed to name islam. Hence the code word "gang" being used awkwardly.
Even the Feminist Initiative party is trying to exploit the situation by blaming all men, each and every one, instead of islam for the rapes and asaults beause it helps their attempts at power even if at the expense of their nation.