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Rafael Avila de Espindola, one of the top contributors to the LLVM compiler toolset, has cut ties with the open source project over what he perceives as code of conduct hypocrisy and support for ethnic favoritism. In a message posted to the LLVM mailing list, de Espindola said he was leaving immediately and cited changes in the community.
LLVM project founder, Chris Lattner responded; "I applaud Rafael for standing by his personal principles, this must have been a hard decision." Lattner also insisted that "it is critical to the long term health of the project that we preserve an inclusive community."
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LLVM Contributor Quits Citing Inclusivity Intolerance
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Don't hate yourself in the morning -- sleep till noon.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday May 04 2018, @09:38AM (102 children)
It won't change anything politically for the project because that would require multiple SJWs to admit that they were utterly wrong and the only real diversity is intellectual diversity but refusing to aid in your own persecution is basic horse sense.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by coolgopher on Friday May 04 2018, @10:04AM (42 children)
Indeed good on him! Personally I stay the hell away from any project with an exclusion policy (aka CoC'ed up project). I don't care if you're a dog or a martian as long as your code (or doc, or releng, or whatever) contribution is good. You can tell me bluntly that my stuff sucks, if you can back it up with facts, and allow me to do the same to you. I don't mind if English is your nth language as long as the code (etc) is solid - we can work on the language barriers from both ends, that's fine. if you're gonna wave your oooh-but-think-of-the-[children|PoC|dems|reps|mass-murderers|whatever] flag around however, I'm gonna stay well clear. My time's too precious for that bullshit. Never argue with idiots etc etc.
(If you're waving the "think-of-people-with-disabilities" flag, it's the same as any other feature request - patches please, and we'll work on it!)
Damn shame for the project to lose someone like him, but that's the cost of adopting such policies.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 04 2018, @11:02AM (4 children)
No doubt they will find a person with a more appropriate skin color or bits between their legs or whatever to replace him
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Friday May 04 2018, @06:21PM (3 children)
Shouldn't their primary consideration be that they have the appropriate bits between their ears?
For some odd reason all scientific instruments searching for intelligent life are pointed away from Earth.
(Score: 3, Touché) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday May 04 2018, @10:26PM (2 children)
Of course not, you racist scum!
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 05 2018, @06:54AM
What's that got to do with it?
Place I know put in a blind selection policy to remove discrimination bias in resume selection for job positions. It worked. The selection bias was removed. They yanked it because they found that people were discriminating for women and minority groups. When blind resume selection with sex, age, race and background were removed less minorities and less females were selected. The percentage of white males selected increased.
Go figure.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 05 2018, @08:27AM
He needs to do gender diversity and sensitivity testing. Err training. Again. This time with electrodes strapped to what's left of his balls. After that he can walk around for a week with a cloth wrapped around his head to gain a true appreciation for diversity. In Afghanistan.
(Score: 2) by PiMuNu on Friday May 04 2018, @12:56PM (30 children)
What if a colleagues code contributions are good but are full of hateful comments, like comments insulting everyone from *some gender* or *some race*? Is that okay for you?
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 04 2018, @01:24PM (10 children)
So you mean like a feminist who might cite any number of feminist authors who have written volumes dripping with homophobia, transphobia, misandry, transmisogyny (and probably works championing transmisandry and the idea that trans men are traitors), sexism, and cissexism?
I will admit though that I have sympathies for a black person who might buckle under our massively unfair system and turn to racism. I reject identity politics completely. We will find, however, that when we find the basis for the problems blacks are statistically more likely to face, we will find a preponderance of blacks in the working class--the working poor specifically.
I hope that feminists find their feminist programming language. Seems to me that LLVM is an ideal project for such a pursuit. I just don't think that anybody who is not a cisgender woman should help them with that. That's not because I wish harm to cisgender women, but it's because anybody who is not a cisgender woman, sooner or later, will be utterly fucked over by them in any space where cisgender women have ultimate political authority. Cisgender women need their own spaces, and we should let them have fun with that.
Meh, I don't feel like logging in. Y'all know who I am.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 04 2018, @02:44PM
We are working on replacing them - the illegals from south of the border are more compliant workers.
(Score: 2) by takyon on Friday May 04 2018, @03:43PM
k
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 3, Insightful) by PiMuNu on Friday May 04 2018, @10:56PM (7 children)
> So you mean like a feminist who might cite any number of feminist authors
Yes, I completely mean that; if someone is full of poison against *some gender* or *some race*, that's a problem. Could be a woman who is full of poison against men, or vice versa, or race or whatever. CoC is there to justify whatever action is taken against that person.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Saturday May 05 2018, @10:06AM (6 children)
Works in theory. In practice it's used to discriminate against anyone not waving the intersectional feminist flag hard enough, because practically every CoC except our proposed one [github.com] is written and interpreted by an intersectional feminist. Thus, any hate or discrimination directed towards white people or men is perfectly hunky dory and asians are starting to feel a bit of it as well.
In any case, you do not need a Code of Conduct to tell someone "You're causing more trouble on the team than you're worth. Beat it.". People have been giving others the boot without one since people have existed.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by PiMuNu on Saturday May 05 2018, @12:03PM (5 children)
> In practice it's used to discriminate against anyone not waving the intersectional feminist flag
I can't comment on that. It depends on the project.
> In any case, you do not need a Code of Conduct to tell someone
Disagree.
In UK at least, you are liable to damages if you exclude people from an activity on basis of various things like race and gender. The Scout Association recently got successfully sued for excluding someone on basis of disability (specifically autism). So you have to be careful. Something like a CoC protects the organisation from being sued because it allows much better defined logic for kicking someone out for "HR reasons" (i.e. they are an asshat).
I think it is quite common across Europe, but maybe not so in US.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Saturday May 05 2018, @01:19PM (4 children)
If you live in a society where people can play the SJW reasons card when fired for a perfectly valid reason and win, I'd advise picking another society on the grounds of yours sucks.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by PiMuNu on Saturday May 05 2018, @02:39PM (3 children)
I'm okay with it. Anecdotally, I know more people that have been in a situation to have been protected by such legislation than to have been hurt by it (but I do know instances where people have, to use your horrible wording, "played the SJW reasons card").
I don't know any situations where it really hit the lawyers, so I can't make stronger statement.
To turn it around, "If you live in a society where people can use gender, race, etc as an excuse to treat people badly, I'd advise picking another society on the grounds of yours sucks". Swings, meet roundabouts. It comes down to personal preference and ability to move.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Saturday May 05 2018, @02:55PM (2 children)
That's not turning it around. Actual discrimination is an entirely different issue than false claims of it. It's entirely possible to think those practicing either could use a good public flaying.
As for the "horrible wording", if you can't tell the difference between an SJW and a progressive/liberal and don't despise SJWs as as much as I do, you need to take a closer look at what they've been doing in your name and the control of your side of the aisle they've acquired. That's assuming for politeness's sake that you're not one of them yourself.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by PiMuNu on Tuesday May 08 2018, @01:43PM (1 child)
> don't despise SJWs as as much as I do
The "SJW" thing seems to be a US thing. It seems to be used as a label for people who are pretending to be nice and thoughtful towards minorities/etc but are actually horrid politicos? In my experience that is not a particularly big group, although I have known people like that. It seems, on this site, to be used more as a slur on people who are genuinely trying to be nice, to imply that they are some horrible politico with some sinister agenda. So I find the acronym pretty unpleasant. Sorry.
I don't really know what it means in the UK context. For example, we have "champagne socialists" and "political correctness" as memes which might be some aspect of it? But e.g. the leader of the opposition is actually a genuine die-hard socialist in the UK (rather than whatever the democrats are in the US). In the UK the politicians seem less disingenuous in the UK as far as I can tell, and SJW doesnt really map terribly well.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday May 08 2018, @02:35PM
Not really, though there are some of those in the SJW ranks for certain. I'll give you a list of their most typical traits of the US ones and let you work out who is one and who isn't for yourself:
That's not a comprehensive list by any means but it hits the high points.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 04 2018, @01:52PM (4 children)
Comments should explain code. Those comments don't do that. Rejected.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Friday May 04 2018, @05:49PM (3 children)
Drat!
Next time, I'll express my vile ideology in the choice of identifiers (variables, functions, methods, classes, etc).
For some odd reason all scientific instruments searching for intelligent life are pointed away from Earth.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday May 04 2018, @10:28PM
I've been using branch names.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 05 2018, @03:03AM (1 child)
I used to do that.
Use fat peoples names for reducing variables so I could say decrease Susan, skinny people for counters, Increase Betty, place names for labels. It was always fun to have a GOTO HELL somewhere in the code. Use that crazy chick in accounts name for the random number generator.
Good times.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Sunday May 06 2018, @12:45AM
Exception up = new NullPointerException( "foobar cannot be null!" );
throw up;
For some odd reason all scientific instruments searching for intelligent life are pointed away from Earth.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 04 2018, @04:53PM
i think affirmative action and keeping things professional are rightfully two different issues, even though these dumb @#$5 like to mix them up in their COCs, evidently.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Runaway1956 on Friday May 04 2018, @05:07PM (7 children)
Perhaps you read TFA? If so, maybe you just missed the bit about, "When I joined llvm no one asked or cared "about my religion or political view."
Your post reminds me of the upskirt project. Every_single_thing related to the program was flagrantly sexist. So, uhhhhh - why in hell would any woman, or respectable man even consider joining such a project? I would have to presume that such people were hoping for a sado-masochist relationship if they joined. Not that there's any thing wrong with S&M, but if that was what the new member was seeking, then said member has no right to complain when the abuse is heaped upon him/her.
ICE is having a Pretti Good season.
(Score: 2) by PiMuNu on Friday May 04 2018, @10:53PM (1 child)
> Perhaps you read TFA?
I was responding to GP who said something like "I don't care if the guy acts like an asshat, as long as their work is good". So if the work is good, but the guy is just vile, to the point where people don't want to work on the project, I think that is an issue. I was responding to the discussion, not the article.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Arik on Saturday May 05 2018, @01:14AM
How does he even have the opportunity to be so 'vile' if he's working on code? Where does he even find the time?
This is not about 'vile' people, it's about socially retarded technically gifted geeks being chased out of our last safe places by people who think their social skills entitle them to rule over us.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Saturday May 05 2018, @02:06AM (4 children)
What is, or was, the upskirt project?
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday May 05 2018, @03:01AM (3 children)
Sorry I provided no references, I should have in this case. I just read your response, and I'm about to walk out the door. My first web search turned up nothing at all related to software. My second search found this - https://github.com/GerHobbelt/upskirt [github.com] I'm not absolutely certain that it's the same project, but I think it's related. I would have thought that whoever inherited the project would have at least changed the name.
There was a pretty major scandal some years back over this project. Everything, and I do mean everything, related to the project, had blatantly sexist names, references, the talk among developers was pretty disgusting - it was a major mess. That project epitomized the worst of women's legitimate complaints about male chauvinist pigs in programming, IT, tech, and STEM in general.
I suppose the next logical web search would use similar terms, but search "news" instead of "the web", then try narrowing down the time. Off the top of my head, this all happened between 2005 and 2010.
Sorry - gotta get out the door!
ICE is having a Pretti Good season.
(Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Sunday May 06 2018, @02:57AM (2 children)
So if I understand that link correctly, they made a Markdown parser and called it upskirt?
On this page, http://fossil.instinctive.eu/index.html [instinctive.eu] it appears that Natasha Kerensikova has taken over the project (or forked it) and called it soldout instead.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Sunday May 06 2018, @03:16AM (1 child)
LOL - good one.
It wasn't just the name of the project, though. The crew who developed it were quite crude and vulgar on their forum, comments within the code, and elsewhere. Take any boy's locker room, remove all adult supervision, introduce a couple of juvenile delinquints to the mix, and that would be approximately how upskirt was run. Many men would be embarrassed, not to mention women.
ICE is having a Pretti Good season.
(Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Sunday May 06 2018, @10:54PM
And it looks like it's in Debian under the names libsoldout-utils; libsoldout1, and libsoldout1-dev.
-- hendrik
(Score: 2) by Bot on Saturday May 05 2018, @04:35PM
> What if a colleagues code contributions are good but are full of hateful comments, like comments insulting everyone from *some gender* or *some race*? Is that okay for you?
what if I told you this started happening *after* the socjus movement started organizing itself, justifying it? hello mikeeusa.
go see usenet archives of the days when the "patriarchy" ruled.
Possibly from trusted sources, winston.
Account abandoned.
(Score: 2) by driverless on Sunday May 06 2018, @03:38AM (2 children)
What, like "fix register assignment bug on multi-op architectures triggered by load/store conflict on ARMv7 code assigned because wenn es dem internationalen Finanzjudentum in und außerhalb Europas gelingen sollte, die Völker noch einmal in einen Weltkrieg zu stürzen, dann wird das Ergebnis nicht der Sieg des Judentums sein, sondern die Vernichtung der jüdischen Rasse in Europa".
Yeah, I run into code comments like that all the time.
(Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Sunday May 06 2018, @10:58PM (1 child)
That would be a low-quality comment, ripe for editing, unless that German text actually does have some sensible relationship with the code that was allegedly explained by the comment.
Perhaps it should even be so edited before a commit to the main development branch.
(Score: 2) by driverless on Monday May 07 2018, @12:50AM
It has no relationship whatsoever to the code, it's a random quote from a well-known 1930s German political leader, meant to illustrate how difficult it was to just drop "hateful comments insulting everyone from *some gender* or *some race*" into the middle of a code commit. As you point out, it's a low-quality comment that would be removed because it's low-quality, regardless of whether it insults some race or gender. No need to have a special code of conduct to catch it, just the normal submission editing process would remove it.
(Score: 2) by janrinok on Sunday May 06 2018, @05:51PM
I agree with the point that (I think) you are making. Comments, if necessary, are a vital part of the code and if they are not doing their job, then they should be removed and replaced with comments that are meet the requirements. Rejecting a patch for being poor quality code is normal.
If people want to express their personal views then they can find another outlet for that purpose - expecting me to work on code that is littered with such crap is unrealistic, or you must at least pay me for the extra time it will take to fix it because I am trying to find out what it is doing despite the comments.
[nostyle RIP 06 May 2025]
(Score: 2, Interesting) by loonycyborg on Friday May 04 2018, @03:15PM (1 child)
Though if we'll all leave all projects with CoC wouldn't soon be no project for us to contribute to? This only delays the inevitable. Only way to counter concern trolls is to formalize and popularize principles of FOSS meritocracy so there would be no opening for imposing "ethical constraints" as if there weren't any.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by jmorris on Saturday May 05 2018, @06:43AM
That is the idea, no platforming any who refuse to obey the $current_year Narrative.
If you are out of step with $current_year you may not:
1. Work
2. Contribute for free
3. Exchange money except by physical means ... and they want to abolish that.
4. Assemble with others who agree with you in a public place
5. Post to social media
6. Own an Internet domain name
I hope a group like this is up on current events well enough that nobody tries the tired "citation needed" crap. There are examples of all six categories in the news within the last few months so I'll not be including links. This thread is about #2 and another one on the front page a few articles up is about #6. I think we all know about the problems with twitter, facebook, google/youtube, paypal, gofundme, stripe, etc. so #3 and #5 should need no further explanation. Ask Milo or dozens of others about #4 and James Damore and Brendan Eich from our own industry typify examples of #1.
(Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Friday May 04 2018, @06:25PM (3 children)
Yes! We should boycot all projects that have written Codes [soylentnews.org] of Conduct! [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 2) by coolgopher on Friday May 04 2018, @11:19PM
I don't know whether to mod that funny or troll :)
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Saturday May 05 2018, @02:57AM
Except Soylent's starts with "Promote Quality, Discourage Crap" and the latest in CoCs can be paraphrased as "Promote Diversity even if it's crap, Discourage White Males regardless of merit".
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Saturday May 05 2018, @10:19AM
The difference being, we don't use any of that to no-platform or eject anyone except spammers.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 4, Flamebait) by realDonaldTrump on Friday May 04 2018, @11:18AM (1 child)
Women have one of the great acts of all time. The smart ones act very feminine and needy, but inside they are real killers. The person who came up with the expression "the weaker sex" was either very naive or had to be kidding. I have seen women manipulate men with just a twitch of their eye -- or perhaps another body part!!
(Score: 3, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 04 2018, @09:34PM
Donald, darling, I don't know how to tell you that... that one was a man.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by TheRaven on Friday May 04 2018, @11:29AM (38 children)
The rest of the document is a clarification of these rules. I'm not sure which of these you object to. From your posting history, perhaps it's 'be respectful'. In general, the LLVM community does a good job of living up to this set of rules. There are a few things I'm not tremendously happy with (such as the fact that there is a committee tasked with enforcing the CoC that is not accountable to the community, but the people on it are all people that I respect, so I'm not overly concerned).
I have a lot of respect for Rafael and I don't wish to second-guess his departure, but the CoC is far from the only thing that he's been unhappy with recently. I suspect that this was a convenient excuse for him, rather than the underlying reason for his wish to move on.
sudo mod me up
(Score: 4, Insightful) by SparkyGSX on Friday May 04 2018, @11:47AM (1 child)
I was about to post the same; I fail to see how anyone could find that CoC offensive. It shouldn't have been necessary to have in the first place, or to write more than "just be a decent person", but I can't find anything unreasonable in there.
The "outreachy" thing, on the other hand, I find extremely offensive, and I very much doubt it's legal. Reading that, I can't really help but think "if those people need such outrageous things to get in, they must really suck at what they do".
If you do what you did, you'll get what you got
(Score: 2) by bobthecimmerian on Wednesday May 09 2018, @11:05AM
I've brought this up in other parts of the thread, but I'll repeat it here. Outreachy is sensible. White men have an overwhelming advantage in the current tech industry, even today. We have an easier time getting interviews, easier time passing interviews, easier time getting promotions, and so forth even when you control for skill, experience, and age level. Outreachy is just an attempt to balance the scales - provide other advantages to people that aren't white, aren't male, or both - so that their career chances are equivalent to ours.
There is a myth in our industry that it's close to an ideal meritocracy. It's not. Obviously a complete buffoon isn't going to go anywhere. But a lot of the determination on who gets promoted and who gets selected to work on important projects has an enormous luck factor.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Lester on Friday May 04 2018, @12:19PM (12 children)
I agree. Those points are just common courtesy.
Just nitpicking, the only point debatable is the one I have marked. The other points are quite clear and most people "Yes, that's a threat, a insult, doxing, sexual or violent material", but when I joke is nice or discriminatory is many times debatable. Who decides? etc. But, as I said before, just common courtesy
Probably, the problem is other. Rafael Avila said he has bad experiences about CoC. I think he feels that this CoC is only the beginning.
I can understand him. To start with, Why do they need a CoC? have been there many inappropriate messages in the list? So if list was working well and someone comes up with a CoC that hasn't been need so far (we write a CoC "just in case") , it will be expanded ("just in case") and the end is that CoC, and so project, will be taken over by SJW, that have time to do such things because they don't waste time coding.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by PiMuNu on Friday May 04 2018, @12:53PM (10 children)
The reason I would do it - is so that if someone is being an asshat, one has a document to point at to justify whatever sanctions. It is harder to say "you are being an asshat so we are going to sack you" than to say "you have breached this and that item in our CoC so we are going to sack you". "Asshat" is ill-defined and arguable whereas the CoC is less so.
(Score: 2) by Lester on Friday May 04 2018, @02:26PM (1 child)
That is the logical reason of existence of a CoC. If things stop there, fine. The danger is that CoC may become a cargo cult, with every body fighting for it
Rules (written or unwritten) are politics. Politics are necessary, but politics take time, so every organization should have only the minimum politics (that is why "Benevolent Dictator for Life" is so efficient). Most people, me for example, don't like to devote long time to politics, so let other people waste their time on politics. When people see a debate on TV, they change of channel and when I said everybody fighting for it, in fact it is a relative small group of people. The final result may be that those who do less and devote more time to politics are the ones who mark the policy of the organization. In OSS, SJW have found a place to play.
That is what I think Rafael Avila is afraid of. That it is just the beginning. He says he has seen that path in other projects.
(Score: 3, Informative) by jmorris on Saturday May 05 2018, @05:55AM
Of course. The people who are going from project to project and agitating for CoCs already have the "Diversity and Inclusion" initiatives from those other projects already ready to impose. They have all of the arguments from previous projects how the "Inclusion initiatives" are required to give the "spirit of the CoC meaning" and all that other $current_year babble. The people pushing these are a hostile force, they do not care about the projects they infect and could care less if they destroy most of them. Any entity not under their control is an enemy, any though occurring that they do not police is a danger.
And consider this. No SJW converged entity has ever been cleansed. Not just in software, none. Ever. They themselves would gleefully destroy any that appeared to be slipping from their grasp so there is no point even trying. When they consume one the only rational response is to, after having fought the takeover with maximum effort, quickly abandon it. Most software projects do not have a lot of resources that can't be quickly replicated, even the name is something everyone is by now accustomed to having change. Fork em and move on. Unlike say the Boy Scouts, who have extensive resources and history but the same solution applies, as painful as it might be you have to just let it go and fork.
The SJW locust produces nothing of value, deprive them of your contributions and that will quickly become apparent. And after the fork establish a simple CoC that simply says:
1. Be excellent.
2. Don't be a jerk, we don't want to ban anyone who is contributing but we also don't want to have to stop our own work to teach you basic social skills either.
3. We are working here. A few offtopic posts, lulz, bantz, etc. is a cultural tradition that fosters our community but there is a place for flamewars and other offtopic crap. 4chan. Use it.
4. Anyone proposing a change to this document is banished for life from {name of project}.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Arik on Friday May 04 2018, @02:58PM (4 children)
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 2, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 04 2018, @04:35PM (3 children)
Hopefully we'll never work at the same place. Ever.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 04 2018, @06:33PM
Is that because you're the asshat who writes good code or the asshat who writes CoC's and mission statements?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 04 2018, @09:59PM
No risk of that, my company doesn't hire transsexuals.
(Score: 3, Funny) by Arik on Saturday May 05 2018, @04:05AM
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 1) by loonycyborg on Friday May 04 2018, @04:21PM
That is just a good path for even more dramas stemming from rules-lawyering. Because in most cases that would be just smartasses trying to bend those rules for maximum mischief. Childish and counter-productive behavior can be already be stemmed by moderators of mailing lists and other public places. If this is not enough for a particular project then CoC will make things only worse.
(Score: 3, Informative) by darkfeline on Saturday May 05 2018, @03:53AM (1 child)
> "Asshat" is ill-defined and arguable whereas the CoC is less so.
And you think "discrimination" isn't ill-defined? You should be thankful you haven't met one of these mighty warriors. They make Cardinal Richelieu look like a pansy. The Cardinal needed six written words to condemn an honest men; a righteous warrior needs only that you exist.
I'm not even joking. Your very existence exudes privilege and if you aren't groveling for the under-privileged, you are an enabler discriminating against minorities.
Join the SDF Public Access UNIX System today!
(Score: 2) by PiMuNu on Saturday May 05 2018, @12:05PM
In UK "discrimination" is pretty well defined in law.
https://www.gov.uk/discrimination-your-rights [www.gov.uk]
(Score: 2) by driverless on Sunday May 06 2018, @03:44AM
Those points are sufficiently elastic that virtually anything that someone regards as common courtesy are violent assault or similar to someone else. For starters, "holding a door open for the person behind you" is "non-contact rape" to some SJWs. So you've gone from "common courtesy" to "rape" in a single jump, and both describe the same action. By not defining, or even giving examples, of what permitted and non-permitted behaviour is, all the above list is doing is giving the SJWs a hitlist that they can apply to anyone they don't like.
For another, unrelated, example, read the constitution of the Soviet Union. It's actually very reasonable, in some cases better than the US one. However, would you rather live in the US or under Stalin and the Soviet constitution? It's all a matter of interpretation.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by unauthorized on Friday May 04 2018, @01:28PM
Two words: selective enforcement. "No tolerance for intolerance" and all that jazz.
University professor making a "joke" about white genocide [cnn.com]? Oh dear, we better slap him on the wrist. Now imagine the shitstorm if it he had said black genocide. The university would have totally just given him a stern talking right?
This is the moral authoritarian of the ages in a nutshell. When it's for "the greater good" everything is justified, and when it's against it we shall nitpick and lionize every minor transgression. A Few decades ago, it was the God-botherer traditional right. Today, the SJWs have taken their place. Different ideologies, same abhorrent authoritarian mindset - the "priesthood" of the "moral good" can do no wrong and you better fall in line or they'll do everything they can to make your life miserable.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Jiro on Friday May 04 2018, @02:58PM (1 child)
There's also this: "In addition, violations of this code outside these spaces may, in rare cases, affect a person’s ability to participate within them, when the conduct amounts to an egregious violation of this code." Which amounts to "we can punish you for anything you say anywhere on the Internet. However, it's at our discretion, so we won't use it when someone we like makes a comment on the Internet about a group we don't like".
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 04 2018, @05:00PM
yeah, or "if your comments stir up enough shit to make us look bad, even if it's our pals stirring up all the shit, we may have to let you go, b/c we're a pack of sneaky weasels"
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 04 2018, @03:49PM (2 children)
From his message:
The #2 he references [outreachy.org] is also linked in the summary. I believe, based on his email, that he is objecting to this section:
Of course, that's just my interpretation of his email.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 05 2018, @04:28AM
Wow. They could shorten that a lot by just saying "You must not be a straight white male".
(Score: 2) by Bot on Saturday May 05 2018, @04:42PM
> gender-free
Identify as a robot, problem solved. Pretty effortless for coders too. I'll close one eye and speak slowly to you, too.
Account abandoned.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Arik on Friday May 04 2018, @04:15PM (14 children)
Being "kind" means hiding things that others would rather not see, it means refraining from pointing out obvious flaws in others or their work. This is a good thing in normal human social interaction, but it's dangerous and counterproductive in a technical conference or project.
"Welcoming" again is a good thing in a social group but not necessarily so in a technical environment, and if you read further that bullet point turns into a catechism of identitarianism, a litany of group identities for whom reverence is required.
All contributors MUST without fail be welcoming to "any race, ethnicity, culture, national origin, colour, immigration status, social and economic class, educational level, sex, sexual orientation, gender identity and expression, age, size, family status, political belief, religion or lack thereof, and mental and physical ability."
*"I'll speak bluntly. If your mental ability is simply average, let alone below average, you're probably not going to be able to do anything useful here."
That statement right there would appear to be in violation of the CoC, and enough to get me banned/ejected etc. under it.
And keep in mind the whole POINT to having a policy like this is so they have something in writing to point to in court, after you sue them, after they have you beaten and thrown out for saying something unkind or unwelcoming (which happened to be true and relevant but that doesn't matter.)
I don't blame him a bit for refusing to sign it. He's right, it's a trap. This is effectively the death of the project. You don't continue to produce technical excellence in an environment where this sort of thinking has taken over.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 3, Insightful) by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us on Friday May 04 2018, @08:42PM (13 children)
Obligations to be "kind" and "welcoming" are out of place and actively counterproductive here for a start.
I beg to disagree. Kindness has nothing to do with refraining from pointing out obvious flaws in work. It has everything to do with *how* one goes about doing so and to be sure that the flaw is, in fact, a flaw before doing so. (As opposed to attempting to be vindictive against somebody because you just don't like them.) Everyone knows 2+2 is 4, but maybe one should be careful that one isn't seeing 1+3 and taking difference to it. "Friendly, polite, cordial." You can point out any number of flaws while being so. In a respectful and cordial manner. (And I suck at this sometimes, too. Obvious facts should be obvious, and when one feels they aren't it is easy to become critical of the person and not the message.)
Just like this. I disagree with you. Yet I know you do a lot of good thinking.
Yes, it might well. Whether someone can contribute, or is allowed to contribute, may be separate from the tone and attitude espousing the sentiment. "Blunt speaking," is often a euphemism for, "I am not going to take the time to show any respect." You can respectfully tell somebody that you appreciate their willingness to contribute but are uncertain if there are any immediate needs for which their talents fit. You can respectfully declare that you have a tough project that will require an above average team to manage. But unless you are qualified to declare an assessment someone's mental ability it might be better to remain silent on why you don't believe any particular person will be able to do something. Put another way, yes, your statement is completely unwelcoming and sounds out of place. There are alternative ways to express what you're trying to get at without being dismissive and negative.
The point of having policies such as these are to establish ground rules and to communicate norms of acceptable and unacceptable behavior. And yes, it is a defense to a project to declare rules of interaction and hold people responsible to them. It points to why someone cannot behave in a manner that is unprofessional and still expect to be permitted to contribute.
We'll see. You also do not attract talent capable of working socially by permitting a socially hostile environment. Generally, a group that can work together well will end up outperforming lone entities who can only get along in limited fashion. Sooner or later the toxicities will end up poisoning the group, IMVHO.
This sig for rent.
(Score: 2) by coolgopher on Friday May 04 2018, @11:35PM (4 children)
Some of us feel that the toxicity brought by the CoC-crowd far outweighs that of an asshat who performs better-than-competent work, however.
All I'm advocating for here is tolerance of those technically skilled individuals who don't match the standards of the CoC crowd, as opposed to tolerance of those socially skilled individuals who don't match the technical standards of the software development project/crowd.
Does that sound hypocritical? Probably, but we're in the business (sometimes literally so) of producing good quality functioning code. Technical ability directly impacts that. Social ability secondly so. Therefore I place more importance on technical ability.
It's all on a spectrum though, as most things are. If you're too excessive an asshat your net worth will be negative and you should be asked to leave. As in, if the behaviour/words/changes you're bringing to the project cause more competence to leave, you should have the grace to sod off. That behaviour is something I've only observed from asshat developers, not asshat CoC-pushers however. Possibly because I stay clear of the latter so I'm not around to see them own up to their mistakes.
Anyway, it's the intolerance in the name of tolerance that really grinds my gears. It's false advertising and double-speak at its best.
(Score: 2) by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us on Sunday May 06 2018, @07:27AM (3 children)
Yes. This was true for a long time. The socially maladept who just has the technical chops to get away with, well, whatever they want. Because they're just so darn good.
There was a passage in Saturn's Race by Niven and Barnes that explained it far more effectively than I possibly could. Fiction, yes, but it had a good ring of truth to it. The notion was that while in the past you could have stars-with-social-bristliness on a team who could be tolerated because of their quality of work. But in the future that pattern doesn't hold. Because those little issues end up disrupting the teamwork and there is no shortage of talent in the future. Your team-with-the-one-thorn will be beaten by the team that works together smoothly without the thorn. It will be interesting to see if that holds true.
When I first read that it scared the hell out of me. Because like a lot of people who become technically adept, I earn my technical chops exactly because I was socially maladept. I'm not always so good now, either, at the niceties of social grace when challenges are on the line. I have to work at it. So I do.
The weird part is that the best of the best that I know have no detectable problems with basic respect and sociality. I'm not talking talking-over-the-water-cooler. I'm talking about seeing others as people too.
But I'm not sure we're quite so much in disagreement. I recognize the desire to hold technical adeptness in first place. It can work. However, let's see how that holds up. Let's say you have an individual on your team who is a stone cold genius except that every time you interact with him at all he mentions something about those goddamn ______________'s who are screwing up the _________________. Pick any group name and any issue you would like, just so long as you personally know a and respect a member in that group and that the issue is one you care about. I can think of at least five different word pairs, most of them diametrically opposed. If you need help, make it a group your spouse (or child) is part of and the issue is a cause you would either give your life for or think is critical to the future of your children. Is that behavior acceptable? (If it is you've picked the wrong combination of words.) If it isn't, what is appropriate to do now?
Pick the right combination of words and you figure out if you are a human being or a robot.
This sig for rent.
(Score: 2) by coolgopher on Sunday May 06 2018, @08:11AM (2 children)
Tell him that arguing over this isn't what we're getting paid to do, and I'm not interested in hearing about it?
If he keeps up after that, he's obviously not the genius he's made out to be. It's not the topic that brings the conflict, it's the inability to shut up about it. See also some sports fans, particularly of opposing teams.
(Score: 2) by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us on Monday May 07 2018, @02:00PM (1 child)
Not a bad answer, but this is a serious and hardcore xenophobe/misogynist/misandrist/transophobe/Cubs fan ( ;) ), and he or she won't stop. Yet they are the persons who can solve the problems that nobody else on the team can.
Anyway, I regret that CoC's are around as well. Because they shouldn't have to be, nor should Codes of Ethics where applicable. Yet they exist to define unacceptable behaviors that at root should have been socially corrected in Kindergarten or 1st grade. People should be able to figure out correct behavior simply from putting out what ethical principles are acceptable, but there are people who won't. Ulitmately they seem sadly necessary to me.
There's always the, "if you mind, find an environment that doesn't have one," possibility. Vice-versa is of course an option, but society sets an upper bound as to what will be allowable in any event. [eeoc.gov]
This sig for rent.
(Score: 2) by coolgopher on Tuesday May 08 2018, @06:19AM
Then it's over to the dreaded "performance management" track, and/or for the leadership to decide who is more important to the company. If the person is such a key part, is getting said person to work remotely an option? Also, whoever hired the person in the first place needs to be had a chat with - either to ensure you don't hire that type again, or to ensure you only hire people like that/who can work with people like that.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Arik on Saturday May 05 2018, @01:08AM (2 children)
This is how productive environments work. People focus on the job to be done, not stroking each others egos.
"You also do not attract talent capable of working socially by permitting a socially hostile environment."
Depends on what kind of talent and what you mean by socially hostile. What you call socially hostile is a warm and nurturing environment for a budding tech. Yes, a budding socialite would find it horrifying, I know. The solution is to get the socialite out of the environment where he doesn't belong, not to alter the environment until he's comfortable there (and the folks that were actually doing the work are now no longer comfortable, and leave.)
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Sunday May 06 2018, @03:13AM (1 child)
Calling something garbage doesn't point the way to change.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Arik on Sunday May 06 2018, @04:36AM
It's nice of people to help you, but you can't just conscript people and force them to be your unpaid tutor.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Arik on Saturday May 05 2018, @05:05AM (4 children)
I try to avoid double replying but this just keeps coming back to me.
You're RIGHT! And this is why socially retarded but technically adept people manage to coöperate effectively! Because we do NOT typically take much time to show respect up front. Our culture places this value very low on the scale!
We do NOT take the time to show any respect for your retarded submissions! True! And we wouldn't want you to do that for ours either! What point would that serve? If I submit something that's bad then tell me it's bad. I'd appreciate you telling me *why* it's bad but I can't reasonably demand it. Because a million people could be submitting bad code every week.
You show respect AFTER something of value has been contributed! NOT BEFORE! If that's too harsh for you, then there are plenty of other fields that don't work that way! If you're building systems on which human lives depend, then you need to be able to set your ego aside and learn from harsh criticism!
No one likes to be wrong but anyone that's been in a position where they make the call is sometimes wrong! The acid test is how you respond when you are wrong and you are called on it.
Do you play victim? Do you try to coërce everyone around you into covering for you and/or sharing the blame? Do you use those social skills to shield you from the consequences of your mistake, even from ever admitting you were wrong?
Or do you say "oh shit! you're right! I'm on it!" and get your ass in gear and do everything humanly possible to mitigate your mistake?
I do the latter. I want to work with people that do the latter. I want any sort of critical utility upon which my life depends to be staffed with people that do the latter.
And if that hurts your feelings? Good. You needed your feelings hurt. Go savor the pain somewhere else, and let us work, please and thank you.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 2) by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us on Sunday May 06 2018, @06:58AM
No, you are still quite incorrect. If you cannot show respect for all people because they are people, and not your little code-contributing robots, then you have already done nothing and can do nothing worthy of respect. I don't particularly care what your technical acumen is. A person who doesn't look at another human being and see that person as human first has no purpose. Period.
Technically adept people can cooperate effectively in some circumstances. It has little to do with technical adeptness. It may have something to do with technically adept people respecting that very adeptness in others. Which is fine until you start devaluing other people as people on that basis. The latter isn't fine.
You can criticize all you want. You can point out a million and one errors and save a billion lives indirectly. If you cannot care about others first then you are nothing, and you have nothing.
People who are shown respect will do exactly what you propose: They will care about the project at hand and move to fix it first. In fact, they will be looking for the problems before you can find them and call their attention to it.
And what I am not saying is you cannot tell somebody they are wrong, or that they have made an error, or even a serious error that must be handled immediately because [pick any number of good reasons here but let's say lives are on the line] that you don't have time to spend so many words on. Nor do you have to prioritize jobs based on a democratic or egalitarian system. (Though a public open-source project may have different apportionment goals.) You can hold people accountable - I am in such a profession now and transferring to another. What I am saying is that when you do, you do so in a manner consistent with some pretty basic and elementary recognition you are talking to a person and not a machine. And it reads to me like you are fairly good at exercising a whip hand and thus have nothing but whipping posts working for you. Sad if true.
Or, you can keep going. Eventually you'll buy yourself a hositle work environment or other harassment lawsuit in the process, which is the penalty for managers who do not understand basics like this. Uber's learning that lesson now, somewhat. Probably not fast enough.
This sig for rent.
(Score: 2) by TheRaven on Monday May 07 2018, @12:24PM (2 children)
And then you lose contributors. I've been an LLVM contributor for about a decade, and I'd be annoyed to see this kind of attitude from any member of our community. We have a large number of very productive developers who produced absolute crap in their first patches (myself included - reading my first clang commits from 2008 really makes me cringe - in my defence it was the first nontrivial C++ code I'd written ever and the first C++ code I'd written in about 5 years). The community thrived because people were willing to encourage new contributors and to provide helpful and positive feedback. After a little bit of that, it becomes self sustaining and these people are not only positive contributors, they're also mentoring others. I've been paid to work on LLVM-related things for a lot of the last decade and the community is a big part of the reason that it isn't just something I stop as soon as the working day ends, but instead something that I've been willing to give up my free time to help grow.
I've been in other open source communities where people have the attitude that you have. I've contributed the minimum that I needed to get the work done, and I've moved on and been thankful that I didn't have to deal with them anymore. These projects have very rarely thrived.
sudo mod me up
(Score: 2) by Arik on Monday May 07 2018, @06:25PM (1 child)
/me shakes head.
You seem to be sincere so I'm going to try to be nice, but that was a dumb post no matter how you read it.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 2) by TheRaven on Friday May 11 2018, @05:01PM
Linux isn't doing so well. Google is investing heavily in Fuscia because the Linux community is so painful to deal with. I'm hearing the same from a number of other companies: it's hard to find people who are competent to do kernel work and willing to interact with Linus and his group. Most of the success of 'Linux' is the success of other projects (Android, KDE, GNOME, and so on), or of out-of-tree forks of Linux (e.g. ChromeOS).
sudo mod me up
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday May 04 2018, @05:11PM (1 child)
He very specifically objected to the elevation of women, gays, trans, and any and everything else above real males. I cited the upskirt project above. They were a deplorable collection of sexists. Here, we have a different kind of sexists, targeting males - and you seem to miss that they are deplorable.
Different strokes for different folks, and all - but the project is no less sexist than upskirt was.
ICE is having a Pretti Good season.
(Score: 2) by jmorris on Saturday May 05 2018, @06:54AM
The code you linked above looks like it has been cleaned up from anything naughty which might have once been in it. But who cares anyway? It is an open source project, the people doing it were enjoying themselves and everyone else got free use of the work. Maybe they were trapped in a SJW hellhole workplace and this was how they blew off steam after hours. Shoulda used nom-de-plumes for that sort of thing of course, lots of potential for even more antics. Even more hilarity had they included a script to flip all the variables between naughty and nice like there used to be for the old SATAN vuln scanner which could be built as SANTA with a switch when some usual suspects complained.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by bobthecimmerian on Friday May 04 2018, @11:43AM (15 children)
What kind of bullshit is this? "Up until now this industry has been prejudiced in favor of white heterosexual men. We are going to institute programs to give advantages to people that are not white heterosexual men to bring the industry back into balance."
White heterosexual male crybaby: "Reverse discrimination! Waaah! So unfair! How dare these women and brown people enjoy the same kind of unfair advantages over us that we had over them until today! Fuckers!!!!!!"
Look at it this way. You take two equal people. For five years you pay person A $100,000 a year and person B $20,000 a year. Then in year six you realize you were wrong, and if you simply bump person B to $100,000 a year you will never, ever offset the $400,000 advantage person A unfairly had. So you pay person B more than $100,000 a year until the gap is closed, or give them a $100,000 salary plus a $400,000 lump payment. Is that immoral? According to you and to Rafael Avila de Espindola it is.
(Score: 0, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 04 2018, @02:10PM
Where muh reparashuns? I wants me forty acres and a mule.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 04 2018, @03:17PM (1 child)
In this instance giving person B the $400,000 appears morally justified. There was a specific harm inflicted on person B and we can even put a dollar value on it. I think many people would agree and there is not too much to question about it.
The moral arguments start when you give an unrelated third person ("person C") $400,000 because person C happens to have the same appearance as person B or whatever the situation may be.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by bobthecimmerian on Friday May 04 2018, @08:25PM
Your argument only stands if the current market is a nearly perfect meritocracy. But it's not, so all available evidence is that persons C, D, E, and F are going to get the same shitty treatment that person D did.
And I don't see the Anti-SJW Crusaders arguing that we should look up every woman, black, Latino, or otherwise that specifically got shit on by the tech industry and giving them money or assistance on a second chance.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 04 2018, @05:04PM
two wrongs don't make a right.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday May 04 2018, @05:17PM (5 children)
Yes, that would be immoral. For starters, you have forgotten that your company doesn't depend on just those two people. You have also forgotten that your company isn't in the business of social justice warrioring.
In year six, you SHOULD BE paying everyone in the company precisely what they are worth. The asshole that you overpaid for the first five years? You can always fire him. Get rid of him somehow. But, you might just get rid of yourself, too.
After all the handwringing, confessions, apologies, etc, everyone should be getting the pay they are worth. Your drama scenarios aren't even worthy of consideration.
ICE is having a Pretti Good season.
(Score: 3, Informative) by bobthecimmerian on Friday May 04 2018, @08:29PM (4 children)
The point is that the industry hasn't been paying non-whites and non-males what they're worth for decades, when we didn't have these Codes of Conduct and assistance programs. So if the problem was going to fix itself naturally, it would have done it already.
There is this crazy fantasy that the tech industry is a near perfect meritocracy. It's a game of chance, and being a white male - and I am one - up until now has meant you're playing with loaded dice. You can either dig up everyone that the industry screwed over that isn't white or isn't male and then give them lots of money and offer them another job, or you can help the next generation. Arguing against both is just: "It's your fault not being born a white man, don't blame me if your tech career didn't take off as a result. Choose better next time."
(Score: 3, Insightful) by slinches on Friday May 04 2018, @08:56PM
There are ways to help those who are underserved by the current system without outright discrimination. Go rally support around those and you'll get a lot of takers. Or you can try to fight racism/sexism with more racism/sexism, but don't expect those you are discriminating against to help you do so.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday May 04 2018, @11:10PM (1 child)
What slinches said. You can't beat racism with racism. War lies in that directions. And, you are justifying assholes like Richard Spencer.
ICE is having a Pretti Good season.
(Score: 2) by bobthecimmerian on Wednesday May 09 2018, @10:59AM
Every cause on every side has a ton of assholes. So the fact that Richard Spencer may be a dick is irrelevant.
And the point I keep making, which you and slinches keep sidestepping, is that the current environment fundamentally gives white men an edge, even today. So an extra scholarship, extra mentorship, and so forth for other people levels the playing field.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by TheRaven on Monday May 07 2018, @12:30PM
One of my former colleagues at Cambridge ran summer schools to give 16-year-old children an opportunity to learn computer science outside of school. He contacted a number of schools and each was allowed to send up to two children along. The first years was around 95% male. He asked the schools why this was, and received 'girls can't code' as a reply from more than one. The second year, he said that each school must send at least one girl if they sent anyone (so they could send one girl, two girls, or one girl and one boy). That year, the gender balance was around 60% female and there was no noticeable change in ability. The vast majority of the girls who attended would simply have been deselected by their schools on the grounds of gender without this policy.
Programmes like Outreachy are attempting to provide a counterbalance to this. They can't provide girls with the same opportunities that the boys got, but they are attempting to provide some equivalence. Unfortunately, equality of opportunity isn't something that everyone agrees is a good idea.
sudo mod me up
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 04 2018, @10:02PM
FFS, ir's not about salary. It's about wasting contributor's donations building transgender washrooms when the money should be going towards new computers.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday May 04 2018, @10:34PM
Support that claim, please. Statistics will not do the job. Neither will anecdotes. You want to claim either organized or homogenous prejudice on behalf of the entire industry around here, you better be able to prove it.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by jmorris on Saturday May 05 2018, @07:05AM
I wasn't aware that anyone had started checking skin color or what was in your pants when you joined a mailing list and contributed code to a project. Who knew?
So everyone is just imagining all the Asian, Indians, Paks and other decidedly non-White people in our industry because bobthecimmarian says it is a white male privilege zone. Nope, it is one of the last meritocracies left, if you can do the work you can probably find a job in the tech game somewhere. Until quite recently you could most certainly find a place in the Open Source community. You will only get VC to found a new company if you are politically "safe" but that is all part of the fake economy anyway, everyone knows this.
Go elsewhere and wank endlessly about why some groups are underrepresented, lots of theories you could propose but why should we care? I gather it isn't as easy to break in without a degree anymore, but again that is a debate for elsewhere. It doesn't, in fact, require much to get into the industry. Anyone, repeat anyone, in the first or even second world can afford a PC powerful enough to learn to program. Anyone can contribute to Open Source, develop their skills, establish a reputation, and lever that into a paying gig, double so if they are from a "disadvantaged group" because of the open discrimination most companies practice to avoid being sued for discrimination.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 05 2018, @07:08AM
Depends on the shit being flung.
I work with a bunch of Indians. From India. Some of them are so happy to have a wage good enough to buy a house. Some are pissed that they don't earn 6 digits. Most of them are not worth the wage. Underperformers the company can't get rid of. People who would be earning 30K in India. Yet they complain. Yet they are still here. They want more. Go back home then. Go to India and see what you get there.
They don't. They stay here. Enjoying the shorter hours. The higher wage. The inane protection their brown skin gives them.
Want to earn more? Start your own company. Build it up yourself. Pay your own wage. Join us. Do what the white people did. It's hard work but worth it.
Stay and complain or leave. Simple choice really.
(Score: 2) by Bot on Saturday May 05 2018, @09:24PM
> Look at it this way. You take two equal people.
Impossible. Use cars.
> For five years you pay person A $100,000 a year and person B $20,000 a year. Then in year six you realize you were wrong
and you should get fired. The end.
In fact yours is a great analogy because it's the same people who played with races and immigration earlier that are using race to divide people unto themselves. Why do they do that? because communism vs capitalism is getting stale and the sheeple needs someone to blame when things go wrong. Socjus are slaves of the real power as much as the white male leading a corporation.
Account abandoned.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 04 2018, @05:16PM (1 child)
That's because people only are one color, one weight, one height, one gender. Nope, no diversity there.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday May 04 2018, @10:36PM
Unless you're claiming that color, weight, height, or gender should be used to define who a person is, yes, the only real diversity is intellectual diversity.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.