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[janrinok] For those of you who do not want to read about the 'extremes' of US politics (alt-right or left-wing) I suggest that you skip this story and wait for the next one. If you feel that we shouldn't publish any story that does not accord with your own, probably less extreme, views then perhaps you should remind yourself that we try to give everyone in our community the benefit of free speech and we do not intentionally censor or promote any particular view or political leaning. Of course, you are welcome to contribute your own comments in the subsequent discussion that will follow.
This MSNBC Guest Just Showed Why The Intellectual Dark Web Exists
On Tuesday, The New York Times’ Bari Weiss appeared on MSNBC’s Morning Joe to discuss her new in-depth piece on the so-called Intellectual Dark Web – an agglomeration of thinkers from all sides of the political aisle who have been cast out by political correctness and now converse with one another regularly and publicly (full disclosure: I’m a charter member, along with friends including Sam Harris, Eric Weinstein, Joe Rogan, Jordan Peterson, and others). The entire premise of the IDW is that many on the Left refuse to acknowledge good-natured disagreement; instead, all disagreement must be due to nefarious evil on the part of those who disagree.
Proving the point on MSNBC was guest Eddie Glaude Jr., chair at the Center for African-American Studies at Princeton. When Weiss cited the discussions between me and Sam as evidence for the diversity of the movement, Glaude responded, “What allows you to describe these folks as intellectuals of sort? Let me say it differently. They’re connected intellectually by what common commitments? So you might have different ideological spaces, but when you talk about Sam Harris and Ben Shapiro in one sentence, I can see the connection between those two.” Weiss responded, logically enough, “Which is?” And Glaude explained:
Having something to do with how they think about race, having something to do with how they think about diversity in the country and the ways in which diversity is talked about, right? The way in which they think about political correctness. Weiss responded, “Yeah, they’re anti-identity politics, for sure.”
To which Glaude launched into a full defense of identity politics: “Identity politics is a phrase that kind of is a red herring. Identity politics is just simply questions of justice, right?”
At this point, Joe Scarborough jumped in and hit the nail directly on the head:
Eddie, you have just made Bari Weiss's point, that you disagree with the way Bari Weiss views the world, so you're going to help her view the world more the way you view the world. The entire purpose of the exercise is to have honest conversations with people, and to not question their morality, or their wisdom just because they don't view the world exactly the same way that you do.
The "Intellectual Dark Web," Explained: What Jordan Peterson has in Common with the Alt-Right
Bari Weiss, an opinion writer and editor at the New York Times, created a stir this week with a long article on a group that calls itself the "Intellectual Dark Web." The coinage referred to a loose collective of intellectuals and media personalities who believe they are "locked out" of mainstream media, in Weiss's words, and who are building their own ways to communicate with readers.
The thinkers profiled included the neuroscientist and prominent atheist writer Sam Harris, the podcaster Dave Rubin, and University of Toronto psychologist and Chaos Dragon maven Jordan Peterson.
Some assertions in the piece deserved the ridicule. But Weiss accurately captured a genuine perception among the people she is writing about (and, perhaps, for). They do feel isolated and marginalized, and with some justification. However, the reasons are quite different from those suggested by Weiss. She asserts that they have been marginalized because of their willingness to take on all topics and their determination not to "[parrot] what's politically convenient."
The truth is rather that dark web intellectuals, like Donald Trump supporters and the online alt-right, have experienced a sharp decline in their relative status over time. This is leading them to frustration and resentment.
[janrinok] And another contribution from Ari reviews Amanda Marcotte's new book:
Birth of a "Troll Nation": Amanda Marcotte on How and Why Conservatives Embraced the Dark Side
Interview at Salon with author Amanda Marcotte:
I had no role in editing Amanda Marcotte's new book, which bears the amusing and highly appropriate title, "Troll Nation: How the Right Became Trump-Worshipping Monsters Set on Rat-F*cking Liberals, America, and Truth Itself." None of it previously appeared in Salon, to be clear;
But "Troll Nation" is not about the election of Donald Trump. Amanda and I have certain areas of cheerfully-expressed political disagreement, but I think we share the view that Trump was the culmination of a long process, or is the most visible symptom of a widespread infection. Amanda's analysis is, as always, calm, sharp-witted and clearly focused on available evidence. American conservatives, she says, used to make rational arguments and used to present a positive social vision. Did those arguments make sense, in the end? Did that "Morning in America" vision of the Reagan years conceal a vibrant undercurrent of bigotry?
[...] How we got from the supercilious, upper-crust conservatism of William F. Buckley Jr., the dictionary definition of an elitist -- the dude could read and write Latin, for God's sake -- to the delusional ignorance of Alex Jones and #Pizzagate, the small-minded hatred of Charlottesville and the unquenchable thirst for "liberal tears" is one of the darkest mysteries of our time. It's also the story of "Troll Nation."
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(Score: 5, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Sunday May 13 2018, @08:34AM (8 children)
Nazis, then or now, aren't "right". They are racists. They pretend to be superior to all other races - black or brown, American or Australian natives, Persian or Arab - they are the world's ubermensch, and everyone else is inferior. That isn't exactly left or right. Most of the right despises Nazis - it is the left that has driven Nazis closer to the right, and/or the right closer to the Nazis. In the 1940's almost everyone in America were united in opposition to Nazis. Their views are not the views of the right. You'll get nowhere in a rational discussion trying to say Nazis fit into the mainstream right.
I can't imagine how you can say that identity politics is a right invention. It is the left who caters to CAIR, to illegal aliens, the blacks, and everyone else who isn't part of the right. Republicans didnt' invent that crap. Lefties say, "You're a victim, let us help you out, just vote for us!" Righties, on the other hand, seldom address that "victim" bullshit. If they do address it, it's more like, "Yeah, our grandparents did some shitty things to your grandparents. Let's get over that, and make money. You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours." Capitalists don't give two shits about identity - they like money, and they'll cooperate with the devil to make more money.
Stalin? I don't much know or care what his personal ideology was - but socialists most certainly enabled him to commit his crimes against humanity. Socialists, or communists, handed him most of Europe to desecrate. Socialists put him in power, and kept him in power. And, socialists today are working toward that same kind of atmosphere, right here in the US of A. What's more, their last candidate in the presidential election could very well have become a modern day Stalin. That psychopathic witch can and does justify everything. It was alright to sell fissionable material to the Russians, then the Russians became the Great Boogeyman, allied with that vast right conspiracy. The woman is every bit as insane as Stalin was.
I really don't believe that you are firmly rooted in reality. Stalin, Hitler, and every other psychopath who has carved a place in history, remain in history as object lessons. But, many of us refuse to learn those lessons.
Ask yourself, "How can America become a modern day Soviet?" Then, look at our "left" wing of American politics. As the other AC who answered you has already pointed out, Democrats are clamoring for gun control right now. It is well established that every oppressive regime goes after the weapons first. They want a population that cannot fight back when they expose their real intentions.
I'm not asking you to trust the right. I'm just asking that you take a damned good look at our left. They truly are despicable - deplorable even. The right will exploit you at every opportunity, but they aren't out to kill anyone. The left is constantly telling us that Whitey needs to die, white hetero males first, then whoever else they decide upon.
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 13 2018, @03:09PM
You cray cray broheim.
(Score: 4, Informative) by Bobs on Sunday May 13 2018, @06:25PM (5 children)
Runaway, sometimes you say things I agree with, but, in terms of identify politics, the Right-wing has embraced it as way to motivate voters in the US, and the left is responding to that. While identity politics has a long, complicated history in the the USA for both/most political parties the left has basically taken it up in response to the explicit calls from right-wing groups in recent decades to diminish non-white males:
The point is, the GOP has actively targets groups by their identify, and in response the Democrats/Left have raised it as a unifying issue for their various groups. Has the reaction sometimes gone too far? Sometimes, but there are always a few idiots in every group.
It is clear the right-wing has tried to demonize all sorts of groups in order to scare people into voting Republican, and this has tuned identity politics into a rallying cry for the left in opposition.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 13 2018, @07:49PM (3 children)
My life long I opposed the republican party for the racist, ad hominem demagogues harbored within.
I will not tolerate the democratic party going down the same path of racist, sexist discourse.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 13 2018, @08:06PM
Fair enough, but people need to realize the reality of how we've gotten where we are. It does no good to yell about a particular evil if you ignore the cause of it.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Sunday May 13 2018, @08:08PM (1 child)
Best of luck to you at retaking your party. Sincerely.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 14 2018, @04:51AM
It would take a lot of luck - whatever you may think of Sanders, I thought he was the best hope for the country.
But the democrats were never my party. I tended to favor them because racist and religious claptrap did not originate among them, as much as it did with the republicans.
And I am young enough to not remember when the republicans were the "party of Lincoln". But I remember when there were quite a few economic liberals still there, before the Norquistas and the tea partiers pushed most of them out. Trump strikes me as one of those, so I'm not too unhappy he is president.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Monday May 14 2018, @07:33AM
Thanks for the response.
The Southern Strategy? Odd - the biggest racists during reconstruction were Democrats. And, because the R's were trying to turn racist D's into R's, they get demonized for it. Ohhh-kay. Worse, everyone has forgotten that the D's were racists back then. Can we agree what you will never get a fair and balanced account of reconstruction from either a D or an R partisan? As a non-partisan, I might make a more fair and balanced story of it - if I were to take the time to work it all out, and put it into print.
War on Drugs? Are you suggesting that maybe Democrats have never gone the "Law and Order" route? Bill Clinton did that. Hillary is famous for an interview in which she supported Law and Order - as well as making some truly asinine comments about the slave labor taking care of the Arkansas governor's mansion. But, Dems are usually forgiven for those transgressions, because they blame it all on Republicans. Nixon, you say? The "war on drugs", or more accurately, the "war on marijuana" began about 7 years before Nixon was even born. https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/dope/etc/cron.html [pbs.org] That page fails to note one important event that should be in the timeline: Prison for Profit was born in the closing years of World War Two. It was Roosevelt who approved of the idea of incarcerating huge numbers of black males to keep the black population under control. And, Truman was right on board with the idea of controlling the blacks, so the unofficial policy stayed in force after Roosevelt's death. But, again, the Democrat(s) responsible can be dismissed, ignored, and/or forgiven. But, DAMN, politics are dirty!
Homosexuality? My opinions have been posted on Soylent many times. I can't find a lot of fault with the R position. The D's, on the other hand, are happy to exploit homosexuals, just as they exploit blacks, and every other splinter group in - or even out of - this country.
Trump targets? The D's interpret stuff however they want, we know that. In point of fact, Trump "targeted" people from known terrorist producing countries. Those countries tend to be populated by non-white and non-Christian people. Go ahead, turn that into an attack on brown people. It works for the D's.
While I disagree with you, you've given me some food for though. Especially with the southern strategy thing. There really wasn't a "good" side in that issue when it comes to politics.
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 2) by Arik on Monday May 14 2018, @04:01AM
While the thought of this insane ideology taking over is horrifying and should be - there is ALSO the possibility that they could wind up, not taking over completely, but getting close enough to doing so that they frighten the voting majority into electing another Hitler to put the lid on them.
If you listen to these folks, of course, Trump IS a nazi, but they still can't seem to take onboard the fact that it was the thought of yet another term of Hillary that scared folks into voting for him. So I'm guessing if next election presents them with a candidate even less to their taste than Trump, they'll pretty much keep using the same tactics that resulted in his win...
That's what happens when you can never admit your mistakes.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?