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from the ancient-but-useful-technology dept.
What is IRC? It stands for internet relay chat, and despite being developed in 1988, it is still a very useful means of low-bandwidth communication, serving hundreds of thousands of users daily across the world. We have created our own IRC Server at irc.sylnt.us, port 6667. Won't you join us?
"Some have asked why we run our own servers instead of using a public one such as freenode.net. We did this to have control of the TOS, copyright, DMCA, and other legal issues. I like freenode (and their TOS) a lot, but we're building a community and we should make our own choices.
Landon, our overlord of IRC, set this up with a lot of help from his team. He also set us up a link-shortener sylnt.us domain for the Twitter account: that rocks! So send him some love if you see him on IRC - he's doing a bang-up job!
Speaking of Twitter, Bender, our IRC bot, posts the headlines to our Twitter account, so feel free to follow us there."
(Score: 2, Insightful) by jt on Monday February 24 2014, @02:01AM
IRC still works great for me, as it has done since the 1990s. These days I have to explain IRC to the non-initiates in terms of Twitter and SMS analogies, but maybe the time is right for an IRC renaissance; even 'real people' are getting comfortable with text-only comms.
(Score: 5, Funny) by clone141166 on Monday February 24 2014, @03:46AM
How do I post status updates to my wall/timeline though? Also how come ChanServ has so many friends - is he some kind of stalker?
(Score: 1) by hatta on Monday February 24 2014, @07:26PM
I'm glad to see this happening. My regular IRC channel has recently become unsatisfactory, so I'm moving on after 15 years. Hope you guys like dick jokes.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 24 2014, @02:02AM
Is it just me or does it serve a useful purpose to have your IP address posted in IRC chat rooms? (yes, the admins having it is useful, but it needn't be public right?)
(Score: 4, Informative) by xlefay on Monday February 24 2014, @02:05AM
Actually, the first segment of your IP gets masqueraded at SN IRC.
So, if you're host is:
one.two.three.four then 'one' will be masqueraded, keeping 'two.three.four' intact.
Also, you can apply for a better cloak in #help.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 24 2014, @02:20AM
That sounds better, but it doesn't answer the question. My speculation at this point is that it somewhat addresses the situation of the admin-less room, and exposing trolls who log in with different nicks frequently. Still, if that is the gist of it, I'd recommend a better default cloak until abuse levels indicate a lesser cloak is justified.(?) My personal threat model worries more about hackers using the info to target ordinary users, than trolls using it to mask their identity.
(Score: 2, Informative) by xlefay on Monday February 24 2014, @02:27AM
Disagree. Freenode doesn't even masquerade your IP/hostname in the first place, we do because we feel it's the right way, having that said. Increasing it, isn't going to any good.
If you *really* desperately, need to protect your IP/hostname, you should /join #help and get one.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by Hairyfeet on Monday February 24 2014, @02:36AM
Well the thing about it is this....stalking. I know the reason I quit using IRC back in the 90s is I had a guy I beat in an online match become fucking obsessed!!! with trying to make my life miserable and with my IP address he used to DDOS the hell out of me, so I can see why that would bother some folks. Remember there are a LOT of sickos and mentally unbalanced out there, hell I had one guy follow me around the web for a year just so he could post "die you fat fucker die" after every post I made.
ACs are never seen so don't bother. Always ready to show SJWs for the racists they are.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Landon on Monday February 24 2014, @02:38AM
If you want to connect to IRC using a dedicated client and pm xlefay (or myself, Landon), we can get you a cloak set up before you enter any rooms.
(Score: 3, Informative) by xlefay on Monday February 24 2014, @02:38AM
The thing is, you're IP/hostname isn't entirely visible. We give out cloaks like candy, if you need one, we can provide one.
(Score: 3, Funny) by unitron on Monday February 24 2014, @03:53AM
"We give out cloaks like candy, if you need one, we can provide one."
Could I get a nice velvet one, like Sir Walter Raleigh was known for?
: - )
BTW, is http://chat.soylentnews.org/# [soylentnews.org] supposed to be broken at the moment?
something something Slashcott something something Beta something something
(Score: 2, Informative) by xlefay on Monday February 24 2014, @04:50AM
Wow, what a big fuck up on my part. You can click "connect" for now, the webchat will be fixed in time (can't restart it manually, everyone will be booted, but it'll reload itself).
(Score: 1) by xlefay on Monday February 24 2014, @05:06AM
Update: I've fixed the issue and the regular interface is restored, sorry about that.
(Score: 2, Funny) by dilbert on Monday February 24 2014, @02:45PM
(Score: -1) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 24 2014, @09:43AM
die you fat fucker die!!!
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 24 2014, @02:49AM
It's fine for you to disagree, but saying 'because freenode is that way' isn't actually an explanation of the motivation in the first place. It may be possible that freenode would see more users if they had a better default cloak. It may be that the admins of freenode have been infiltrated by the NSA or other well funded organized criminals.
Increasing it to parts one *and* two would seem to greatly increase the kind of mapping needed to be done by an attacker (256 vs 256^2, not to mention probably many of the first segments are known and thus can not be scanned by the attacker). The more you make the attacker scan, the more vulnerable the attacker is to draw attention of other network admins).
As for your assertion about desperation, the truth is I'm not desperate to join the room. I've mentioned why the IP address issue is a barrier to joining, and you haven't yet justified its usefulness (sufficient for my understanding of the issues).
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Landon on Monday February 24 2014, @03:08AM
We're not against the idea of having a fully obfuscated hostname, BUT it does not seem like it is readily done with Charybdis (the IRC server we are using). If anyone has information to the contrary, we would like to know.
(Score: 1, Flamebait) by pk on Monday February 24 2014, @03:15AM
Maybe you should stick to USENET. You know the admins can see your IP address on this site... ;)
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 24 2014, @03:37AM
Methinks you are trolling. If you read my comments closely, you won't see me specifically requesting a way to be totally anonymous. I.e. my intent was to use my SN username, but merely have my IP address not (even partially) broadcast publicly. Also, I may just be ignorant of a more educated defense of the issue that the freenode admins might give. I'm not claiming to be a professional network security expert like you are on your homepage- darkcalf.com-
"
Information security is a very serious business. With sites like Wikileaks divulging secrets, and...
We also provide Social Management options that allow you to build and define your online image just by giving us basic guidelines on what you would like to see posted. Essentially we shine the spotlight and generate social media trafic..."
Wow. Just Wow. What a sockpuppet. And why am I not surprised that your troll of a response had nothing to do with treating information security as a very serious business.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 24 2014, @04:19AM
Someone call the BOFH, he broke rule #1.
(Score: 5, Informative) by xlefay on Monday February 24 2014, @04:44AM
Agreed, what you're asking is not ridiculous at all and I _will_ look into the matter more closely, as it stands Charybdis masquerades the first part of your hostname/ip but not the entire thing which makes sense from one perspective.
Generally, to cloak one segment is enough in case it isn't, you can apply for a cloak, however I do understand your point. I'll post my findings _and_ possibly my fix in the journal when I've looked more into it (just peaked earlier). I'll link back here. Also, feel free to PM me on IRC to get an update.
Hope this is more satisfying.
~ xlefay.
(Score: 1) by pk on Sunday March 09 2014, @06:01AM
Sez Anonymous Coward with stinging, stinging words. IRC isn't for the feint of heart, even with your IP address cloaked. Plus, if you're that concerned about people seeing your IP address on IRC, I would suggest a VPN anyway. You shouldn't be depending on someone else's application configuration for your defense, and that's what I was mocking you for.
(Score: 1) by xlefay on Monday February 24 2014, @04:47AM
I agree partially. Mostly, hosts are given out by ISPs and consist of actually valuable information for a direct attack at someone which is something we masquerade by scrambling it. And I apologize for the assertion (which was completely false) that you may be desperate to hide your IP/hostname.
Having that said, please read my other comment: http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=261&cid=554 0 [soylentnews.org] - I hope this is more satisfying.
~ xlefay
(Score: 1) by xlefay on Sunday March 02 2014, @11:50AM
As promised: http://soylentnews.org/~xlefay/journal/112 [soylentnews.org] ;)
(Score: 1) by Boxzy on Monday February 24 2014, @02:15AM
I haven't looked in the play store yet, is there an open source IRC app?
Go green, Go Soylent.
(Score: 4, Informative) by mrbluze on Monday February 24 2014, @02:39AM
I don't know if it's open source or not, but AndChat works nicely and is without ads and isn't crippled.
Do it yourself, 'cause no one else will do it yourself.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by everdred on Monday February 24 2014, @03:29AM
When I looked about a year ago, Andchat was the way to go.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Marand on Monday February 24 2014, @07:22AM
The one I prefer using on Android is qicr [google.com]. Source is open (here [github.com]), works well despite the beta tag, and the UI is much better than the others I tried.
(Score: 2, Informative) by lhsi on Monday February 24 2014, @09:56AM
There is Yaaic (Yet Another Android IRC Client) on F-Droid (the Open Source Android app repository): https://f-droid.org/repository/browse/?fdfilter=ir c&fdid=org.yaaic [f-droid.org]
I used it a little a couple of years ago, but not recently. I might install it again and have a look at the SoylentNews IRC though.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Aiwendil on Monday February 24 2014, @01:49PM
This might be a tad bit off from what you where asking for but the most common way for people to irc via their androids is to run screen+irssi on their home machine and then use Irssi Connectbot as ssh-client from their phone
And personally I also couple it with "hackers keyboard" (five-row onscreen keyboard)
(Score: 1) by cykros on Tuesday February 25 2014, @02:04AM
Personally, I use irssi-connectbot (yes, that's the full name of the app) which is basically a version of connectbot (the popular android ssh client) that is configured to make using irssi on a remote host more reasonable from a touch screen interface, adding things like swipe-to-change-window (instead of /win goto #) and other conveniences. Makes it easy to jump between android and the desktop without missing a beat. And given that irssi exists for Windows too, this is a pretty cross-platform solution. And yes, it's open source.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Landon on Monday February 24 2014, @02:46AM
Landon here, my nick on IRC is ... Landon. #Soylent is really a fun place to hang out. Between Khyber discussing his tomato plants, the bread recipes, and the _real time_ discussion with the people building this awesome site...... if you want to talk about it, there's usually someone else who's interested. :)
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Pav on Monday February 24 2014, @04:12AM
The reason I'm personally uncomfortable with this is trust. I don't think you guys are from Dice or NSA etc..., but after the whole Slashdot/Dice thing I'm not excited by the concept of trusting a single entity again. What happens if some Russian bot herders think you might be a good target to "ask" for a contribution "or else", or if a bag of cash says "shut down the site + IRC today"? Yeah, the latter is unlikely, but I would have said it was unlikely for Dice to think it was a good idea to de-emphasise its community. As things stand there's no fallback. At least with FreeNode they have experience with DDOS and could stand up to a MUCH bigger botnet. It's also much harder for the community to be scattered/destroyed. I suppose a malicious entity with ops could make the FreeNode channel invite-only however.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Natales on Monday February 24 2014, @05:03AM
Look, the genie is out of the bottle. We, this "fuzzy" community, represent a very specific segment of the nerd/geek population at large, and *we* are here to stay. Even if the site fails, we will rebuild. Besides, don't underestimate the level of collective intelligence and will of this community (or money for that matter). The title of this site is spot on: it's people, and we have power.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by Barrabas on Monday February 24 2014, @06:30AM
We won't be a single entity for long.
We haven't chosen a business/financial model as yet, but my best guess is that we'll be non-profit with either a board of directors or using the co-op model (everyone owns the business).
This doesn't *completely* eliminate selling out, but the risk is spread among several individuals. For example, Craig Newmark is still keeping craigslist [wikipedia.org] true to its non-commercial nature, despite losing 25% of the company to eBay.
(I'm currently running the show here at SoylentNews)
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Marand on Monday February 24 2014, @07:31AM
Why isn't this IRC server using SSL? Most (if not all) IRC clients still developed understand and can use it, so there's no good reason not to provide is as an option. Preferably as the only option, actually, with no unencrypted connections allowed.
Considering the news that shows up here and on Slashdot on a regular basis about privacy, security, eavesdropping, etc., you would think some sort of encryption would have been first priority.
On the same note, links followed from RSS link to the site via http instead of https. This should be addressed as well.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 24 2014, @07:54AM
Somebody commented that IRC with SSL is like email with SSL, useless. While the connection from your box to the first server might be encrypted, there's no guarantee the rest of the connections before the recipient are.
Besides, if you want it, there is a SSL connection on irc.soylentnews.org:6697 with a self signed cert.
(Score: 2, Informative) by Marand on Monday February 24 2014, @08:02AM
Pithy quote but inherently wrong in regard to IRC.
There are IRC daemons with the capability to provide secure connections between servers on the network as well as providing SSL to the endpoints. Furthermore, if both endpoints are encrypted, it's easy enough to connect to the same server as the user you want to communicate with and not need to worry about if the server interlinking is encrypted as well, for the truly paranoid.
There's no reason at all SSL shouldn't be default. Just because you can argue "well, it might not be fully secure" is no excuse to half-ass it.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 24 2014, @05:32PM
Incomplete security can be worse than no security because it can give a false impression of security which is not there, making people act as if the security were there. If there's no security at all (and that fact is visible, as in not using SSL), people know that they should not trust it and use other communication channels if they need security.
(Score: 1) by omoc on Monday February 24 2014, @11:12AM
While I use IRC a lot I give my "no thanks" already to a private IRC server. No SSL is equally ludicrous as the reasons not to use one of the big public networks. The whole idea behind Soylent was to make things more independent. If you fuck things up, the freenode channel will still exists while your shiny private IRC server will be gone. Thanks, but no thanks.
(Score: 2) by dmc on Monday February 24 2014, @06:24PM
Your statement is illogical. Doing things the way you describe makes SN _dependent_ on freenode. While SN doing their own IRC makes them _more independent_. Just like the ancient slashcode, there may be all sorts of reasons why an independent SN IRC infra might burn to the ground. But the whole point of doing _truly_ independent infra, is because you realize that despite failure and rebuilding being a necessary part of the process, the end result is far better than depending on other massive infra with overlords that can be corrupted by advertisers or government censors. Freenode may or may not be wonderful today, but just like slashdot, who knows what their next forced Beta will look like after some new overlords drive a dumptruck full of money up to their houses.
(Score: 1) by omoc on Monday February 24 2014, @07:29PM
apparently you do not understand how IRC networks operate
(Score: 1) by Landon on Monday February 24 2014, @03:06PM
SSL has been in since the start on the usual port 6697. For now it's a self signed cert until things get a little more stable here and certs are handed out like candy to the various subdomains :)
(I'm pushing towards mandatory SSL myself, but that's a future improvement)
(Score: 1) by Marand on Monday February 24 2014, @04:19PM
Good to know, thanks. Shame it wasn't mentioned in the summary itself.
Fight hard for that, because it's one of the biggest benefits of running your own ircd for SN instead of using freenode. Mandatory encryption could be touted as a feature, or used as a counterpoint for why you choose to host your own instead of using an existing network.
It's something that should happen sooner rather than later, though; changing it late risks annoying people by a sudden change after they've gotten accustomed to current behaviour.
Above all, though: good luck. Whether I join in or not, I'm happy to see protocols like IRC used in appropriate places, instead of yet another grafting of unrelated crap onto HTTP regardless of suitability. It's a shame that IRC lost most of its momentum since the '90s to things like Facebook and IM clients, though not surprising. Openness is harder to monetise, track, and control.
(Score: 1) by cykros on Tuesday February 25 2014, @02:22AM
IRC lost steam? Someone forgot to tell those of us who've been on it the whole time and haven't noticed so much as a blip.
Sure, it's not what everyone uses, but then, I wouldn't say it necessarily should be anyway (not everyone engages in group chats in the first place). XMPP, otoh, would be nice to see universally adopted (in a truly open, federated manner), but then, plenty of companies have a vested interest in keeping that from happening, so I won't hold my breath.
IRC has weathered the 2010s fairly smoothly compared to most other non-www protocols on the Internet as far as I've been able to tell. Usenet has fallen into a small niche, ftp is essentially dead in the water, and even email is something that people seem to grudgingly use for work, and not much else when they can avoid it. IRC's done a pretty bangup job remaining relevant, on the other hand, though the landscape is quite a bit different these days, as well, we're not the only ones who see forking off our own server/network as being a good idea. The days of everything being on EFNet are certainly long over.
In any case, if there was the perception that IRC lost steam, then I guess welcome back to those who are realizing that wasn't the case :-P.
(Score: 1) by Marand on Tuesday February 25 2014, @01:59PM
Compared to the late '90s and early 2000s, it definitely lost momentum. Freenode, by far the largest network currently, is only managing about half the users of Dalnet at its prime. That's not even getting into Undernet and EFnet, which were busier networks most of the time. Where websites used to invite readers to join discussion on IRC via their channel and network of choice, it moved to forum software and things like disqus or Facebook.
I never said it died because, like you said, it's healthier than a lot of other protocols that have all but vanished, but it still lost a lot of people over the years, despite more people than ever on the internet daily.
Personally, I never stopped using IRC, but I watched the trends shift and others move away from it, especially outside of open source dev circles. So, any time I see someone decide to host a network or start a channel to go with their website, especially one that has potential of becoming large, it makes me happy.
I agree about the XMPP sentiment, by the way. XMPP is great, and when Google federated* their server, I enjoyed being able to run my own server and still be able to communicate with less tech-savvy friends that only had to sign up for gmail and got the XMPP support as a freebie. It looked like it was going to be another big player, an open protocol in the style of email, where everyone could cross-communicate. Unfortunately, everybody took it for their own use and turned off federation, though, so now it's just a pre-built walled garden for the likes of Facebook and Google.
* I'm still pissed about them removing federation and pushing toward their Hangouts and G+ bullshit, but that's too far off-topic to get into here.
(Score: 1) by Barrabas on Monday February 24 2014, @04:47PM
We're not using SSL because our current host doesn't support AAAA or A6 records in the zone file. (Our IRC supports IPV6, we just can't configure the host to use it.)
We're moving to linodes and should have this fixed very soon, probably within 2 weeks.
(Score: 1) by Landon on Monday February 24 2014, @04:59PM
I think you had a minor brainfart between IPV6 and SSL :)
(We do have irc.sylnt.us pointed to the IRC server's ipv6, but preferably use irc.soylentnews.org, like Barrabas says it will be fixed soon)
(Score: 1) by scourge on Monday February 24 2014, @01:12PM
Can we use psycd instead? full IRC compatibility and it's the future. It can be combined with gnunet and it's awesome. Please?
(Score: 1) by nil on Monday February 24 2014, @02:55PM
Please see this helpful explanation video, from our friends at Numb3rs!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2rGTXHvPCQ [youtube.com]
(Score: 1) by skullz on Monday February 24 2014, @05:23PM
OW! OW! OW! OW!
I just... wow. They even had a fly over as t3h datas were flowing through the tubes.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by mmcmonster on Monday February 24 2014, @02:56PM
Any chance of getting the site headlines mirrored on Google+ like /. does? It's convenient for some of us (or maybe just me?) to find out when a new headline is available by just following you there.
(Score: 1) by Landon on Monday February 24 2014, @03:08PM
I'll poke into this, maybe I can reuse the code that makes the twitter headlines now. Thanks for the suggestion!
(Score: 1) by gringer on Monday February 24 2014, @08:21PM
Are the site headlines currently mirrored on IRC (together with comment links)? If not, I guess that could be a useful feature. It would allow people to find out when new headlines are available without having to use other social networking sites.
Ask me about Sequencing DNA in front of Linus Torvalds [youtube.com]
(Score: 1) by Landon on Monday February 24 2014, @10:00PM
They are! :)
(Score: 1) by morgauxo on Monday February 24 2014, @03:01PM
I'm sure the pros and cons for Soylent to have it's own IRC server were carefully considered but I think it's going to limit it's popularity. I'm sure many of us already have irc rooms we frequent. For example... most hackerspaces have a room on Freenode. Actually... isn't just about everything on Freenode? Maybe other irc clients make it easy to be on two servers at once? I don't think mine does.
Just my 2cents, I may be wrong.
(Score: 1) by Landon on Monday February 24 2014, @03:10PM
What client do you use? I'm using irssi and other servers are just a /connect away
(Score: 1) by morgauxo on Monday February 24 2014, @09:20PM
I'm using erc in emacs. So... irssi actually lets you join channels on two different servers at the same time then?
(Score: 1) by Landon on Monday February 24 2014, @09:44PM
Absolutely, it wouldn't be much of an IRC client if it couldn't.
(Score: 1) by morgauxo on Monday February 24 2014, @09:23PM
Oh... hey... actually, it would seem I can do this in erc. Sweet! Nevermind, Carry on then, my bad!
(Score: 1) by Landon on Monday February 24 2014, @09:46PM
Awesome! I suppose we'll see you on soon, then?
(Score: 1) by cykros on Tuesday February 25 2014, @02:25AM
I didn't think there were any irc clients left that were single-server only. BitchX might be, but then, BitchX also doesn't do SSL (afaik) and is generally at this point legacy anyway.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 24 2014, @05:23PM
I don't see how to get an URL preview with the URL shortening service. After all, if I don't know where http://sylnt.us/goatse [sylnt.us] goes to, then how can I know whether it is safe to click on? (BTW, it is. But you'll have to take my word on it, because there's no preview available, as far as I can see.)
Indeed, IMHO URL shortening services should enable preview by default, and only disable it on the user's request (where the user is the one clicking on links, not the one creating them).
(Score: 1) by Landon on Monday February 24 2014, @05:41PM
Right now you'll have to take my word that sylnt.us has a whitelist for *soylentnews.org and *slashdot.org domains. I'll check plugins to see if there is one for previews, but I don't remember seeing one.
(Score: 1) by Landon on Monday February 24 2014, @05:49PM
I found the plugin, but it's not working atm. I'll post a journal update if/when I get it working.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 25 2014, @07:00PM
Thank you. And keep up the good work!
(Score: 1) by Reziac on Tuesday February 25 2014, @02:27AM
....and it let me log in and watch the ongoing discussion but I didn't see any way to post. (Seamonkey 2.5 here) It seemed to be real responsive, far as I could tell.
I don't use IRC much but it can be nice to have. I don't see the downside. If it doesn't work out here you can always move it.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.