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China Finds Zen: Begins Production Of x86 Processors Based On AMD's IP
Chinese-designed "Dhyana" x86 processors based on AMD's Zen microarchitecture are beginning to surface from Chinese chip producer Hygon. The processors come as the fruit of AMD's x86 IP licensing agreements with its China-based partners and break the decades-long stranglehold on x86 held by the triumvirate of Intel, AMD and VIA Technologies. Details are also emerging that outline how AMD has managed to stay within the boundaries of the x86 licensing agreements but still allow Chinese-controlled interests to design and sell processors based on the Zen design.
AMD's official statements indicate the company does not sell its final chip designs to its China-based partners. Instead, AMD allows them to design their own processors tailored for the Chinese server market. But the China-produced Hygon "Dhyana" processors are so similar to AMD's EPYC processors that Linux kernel developers have listed vendor IDs and family series numbers as the only difference. In fact, Linux maintainers have simply ported over the EPYC support codes to the Dhyana processor and note that they have successfully run the same patches on AMD's EPYC processors, implying there is little to no differentiation between the chips.
The new chips are surfacing against the backdrop of the trade war between the US and China that could escalate quickly, likely reinforcing China's long-held opinion that a lack of native processor production could be a strategic liability. Today's wars are won with chips, and their strategic importance certainly isn't lost on those in the halls of power. In fact, the Obama administration blocked Intel from selling Xeon processors to China in 2015 over concerns the chips were fueling the country's nuclear programs, and subsequent actions by the US have largely prevented China from achieving the technical know-how and equipment to develop its own chips through acquisitions and mergers.
That makes it even more surprising that AMD has managed to establish a franchise that allows Chinese processor vendors to develop and sell x86 processors in spite of US regulations and the licensing restrictions with Intel, but now more information is coming to light about how AMD pulled off the feat.
Related: Intel Launches New Chips in China as US Bans Sales to Supercomputing Centers
Intel Hints at Patent Fight With Microsoft and Qualcomm Over x86 Emulation
Data Centers Consider Intel's Rivals
Tencent Chairman Pledges to Advance China Chip Industry After ZTE "Wake-Up" Call
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 08 2018, @01:26AM (17 children)
Needs to die.
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Ethanol-fueled on Sunday July 08 2018, @01:35AM (4 children)
Well, it's not like these cheatin' Chinks could ever roll something that required decimal precision, These Goddamn Chinks are still doing their PH.Ds on 8-bit microcontrollers and poaching whatever higher knowledge they have through "academic solicitation."
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 08 2018, @04:04AM (2 children)
Go look at some scientific journals. You'll see a lot of authors with Chinese names.
(Score: 3, Informative) by takyon on Sunday July 08 2018, @09:06AM (1 child)
80% of Data in Chinese Clinical Trials Have Been Fabricated [sciencealert.com]
Chinese courts call for death penalty for researchers who commit fraud [statnews.com]
China cracks down after investigation finds massive peer-review fraud [sciencemag.org]
Fraud Scandals Sap China’s Dream of Becoming a Science Superpower [nytimes.com]
China to crack down on fraud in scandal-hit scientific research amid ZTE wrangle [scmp.com]
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 09 2018, @06:09AM
I have to wonder what's up with the Chinese here. As of this writing there is only one Chinese scientific* Nobel laureate (Tu Youyou, Medicine 2015). There are two other laureates who had Chinese citizenship at the time they did the work which led to their prizes: Chen-Ning Yang and Tsung-Dao Lee. However, when they did the work which won them the 1957 Physics prize they were both in the United States (Yang did not return to China until 2015, and Lee was naturalised an American citizen in 1962). Two other Nobel laureates were once Chinese nationals, but again neither of them did their prize-winning work when they were still in China. Daniel C. Tsui moved to the United States in 1958 and did his work that won him the 1998 Physics Prize in the 1980s, and Charles K. Kao did the work which won him the 2009 Physics Prize in the 1960s while he was working in England. So that leaves only Tu Youyou as the sole Chinese Nobel Prize winner who did all the prize-winning work under the auspices of China. So it's clearly not a question of race, but more one of society. There is something badly wrong with the scientific establishment in China that is responsible for their paltry results thus far. It's not just a matter of their form of government either: the Soviet Union still somehow managed at least eight scientific Nobel laureates with a government every bit as repressive as China's had ever been. Probably more the priorities of their government and society.
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* Specifically excluding non-scientific prizes like Peace or Literature
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 08 2018, @04:25PM
You win stupid comment of the day. And you're gay, too.
(Score: 2) by requerdanos on Sunday July 08 2018, @01:56AM (10 children)
Anyone believing this should buy and use non-x86 processors exclusively, and encourage the same.
It usually means that you will have to use some form of free software unixlike OS, those being the ones that cross-compile more easily, but it's quite doable. ARM, PowerPC, RISC V, or DEC Alpha, Sparc, etc., take your pick.
As long as you don't need any proprietary software that you can't recompile for your architecture of choice, you are good to go.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 08 2018, @02:10AM (2 children)
Everything i have now is ARM ( or fpga ). I am not a hypocrite, and i eat my own dog food.
(Score: 2) by requerdanos on Sunday July 08 2018, @01:28PM (1 child)
I apologize for the implication; I was really more encouraging others and pointing out that free software provides a ready path than suggesting that you were not serious. It's really possible to do pretty much anything you would do otherwise, without using x86 for anything. The cost-per-speed, cost-per-flexibility, and learning curve maps are different, but Linux (GNU/ and Android flavors) and its software base run as happily on ARM as anywhere else.
As for myself, I use x86 machines because I am seduced by the cheap+fast aspect, but at my desk I do at least have as many ARM systems as x86 systems on my KVM. They compare almost entirely favorably. The ARM systems can do pretty much anything the x86 ones can do (just slower).
One thing I really appreciate is the power efficiency. I replaced an aging Pentium 4 server a few years ago with one of those single-board Olinuxino ARM computers outfitted with a nice fast SSD. The P4 ate hundreds of watts, whereas the Olinuxino is happy with 5 Volts at 1 amp. And the migration wasn't much more than copy over /home and parts of /etc.
Given the advances over the last decade, the biggest advantages x86 chips have are momentum and huge installed base; software compatibility is no longer an x86-only thing.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 08 2018, @10:10PM
Ya, with raw horsepower, x86 still wins, but i have also found that 'usability' is fine for tasks 99% of real people do, as long as you are not trying to pretend a PI was designed to be a desktop or something and go with 'desktop' class ARM. I agree too, that its hard to beat the power requirements.
Was a huge fan of PowerPC, which could honestly compete on performance, until that ( consumer ) market dried up. Here is hoping RISC-V isn't a pipe dream, or never gets out of 'embedded' silicon.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 08 2018, @02:13AM
Oh, and for the above comment.. It was posted using a Jetson TX2.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 08 2018, @06:41AM
Works for me. All arm based now, but the 68k and ppc were joys to program (asm).
(Score: 2) by bitstream on Thursday July 12 2018, @03:42PM (4 children)
As long as large investments fueled by de-facto monopoly into the x86 architecture to make it competitive in the instructions per US$. It's explainable that people go for the best bang for the buck. What people can do is to ensure that software works on other architectures with ease.
Maybe the fact that the Chinese have a hard time to get access to x86 and can thus more easy produce chips for other architectures may be the market opener.
Haven't seen any end consumer real price competitor to x86 for a desktop/server yet.
(Score: 2) by requerdanos on Thursday July 12 2018, @08:27PM (3 children)
Although in the tablet space, ARM is really demonstrating, I'd say, that x86 is definitely not needed for a widely-accepted computing device.
(Score: 2) by bitstream on Thursday July 12 2018, @11:30PM (2 children)
Any tablet that is strong enough to do desktop? and cheap. However connectivity would suffer (USB sucks).
Then it's the server 19" side. Still no real competitor on both performance, price and availability.
(Score: 3, Informative) by requerdanos on Friday July 13 2018, @07:07PM (1 child)
I find this (you may or may not care to know) very frustrating.
I would cheerfully use a (server or desktop) processor that was half (or a quarter) as fast per core as long as it had plenty of cores and my compiles and media encodes finished in about the same amount of time.
I don't need an x86 for that in theory (free software mostly cheerfully recompiles wherever you need it to), but I am not finding the motherboards that make it true in practice. I'd like to.
(Score: 2) by bitstream on Saturday July 14 2018, @05:58PM
Do we smell a kickstarter or movement? Economical MIPS/PPC/ARM motherboard for server and desktop?
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday July 09 2018, @02:02PM
Don't kill the x86 architecture just yet!
Not until Intel Management Engine, or something like it, can be made mandatory for other architectures. Compromise baked right into the hardware.
The Centauri traded Earth jump gate technology in exchange for our superior hair mousse formulas.